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G3 / P8 startup glitch

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  • geoffringle
    Hi Guys, Geoff Ringle here. I m new to this group, but not new to AirWire installations. I have completed numerous G2/P8 installations in large brass 1:20.3
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 12, 2013
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      Hi Guys,

      Geoff Ringle here. I'm new to this group, but not new to AirWire installations. I have completed numerous G2/P8 installations in large brass 1:20.3 steam locos.

      I recently did two G3 / Phoenix P8 installations (in a K-36 and a K-37) that are giving me fits. Upon start up the bell, the whistle and the crossing whistle will play in loops. As follows: press bell and the bell rings 3 times – pauses – rings 3 times – pauses and on and on. The crossing whistle will continue to repeat.

      The problem seems to have symptoms of stuck buttons on the T5000, but that is not the case.

      Eventually, after what I'll call the "startup glitch", everything works normally. The bell will ring continuously until shut off & the crossing whistle will play one sequence.

      Has anybody experienced symptoms like this?
    • Kevin Strong
      How are you connecting the P8 to the G3? The diagrams on p. 34 of the G3 manual show a different hook-up than just using the DCC booster output as we ve used
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 12, 2013
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        How are you connecting the P8 to the G3? The diagrams on p. 34 of the
        G3 manual show a different hook-up than just using the DCC booster
        output as we've used on previous Airwire boards. They include a 2-ohm
        resistor, which is new. They don't say why it's needed, but they
        think it important enough to include the resistor in the kit.

        That's about all I've got. I have--on rare occasion--gotten a short
        toot of a whistle or a few bell rings on start-up of a few of my
        Phoenix boards, but it's not consistent at all and I couldn't tell
        you which board they are.

        Later,

        K
      • Geoff Ringlé
        How are you connecting the P8 to the G3? ... Kevin, I am using Option 2 (on p.34) with 18.5 V LI-ion. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 12, 2013
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          How are you connecting the P8 to the G3? ...



          Kevin, I am using Option 2 (on p.34) with 18.5 V LI-ion.






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jonathan Bliese
          The 2 ohm resistor is not normally needed. I have already done a large number of G3 installations and have not used it yet. It is provided in order to limit
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 13, 2013
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            The 2 ohm resistor is not normally needed. I have already done a large
            number of G3 installations and have not used it yet. It is provided in order
            to limit inrush current , as some sound decoders will have a large surge
            when they start up. Note the word "some". Since CVP has no idea which sound
            decoder will be used, they include the part as a option.

            Go ahead an use it in this case, it will not degrade anything, and may
            stabilize the start up for this particular P8.



            Jonathan

            www.rctrains.com

            Now in our 23rd year of radio control installation service for large scale



            From: AirWire@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirWire@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Kevin Strong
            Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:58 AM
            To: AirWire@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [AirWire] G3 / P8 startup glitch





            How are you connecting the P8 to the G3? The diagrams on p. 34 of the
            G3 manual show a different hook-up than just using the DCC booster
            output as we've used on previous Airwire boards. They include a 2-ohm
            resistor, which is new. They don't say why it's needed, but they
            think it important enough to include the resistor in the kit.

            That's about all I've got. I have--on rare occasion--gotten a short
            toot of a whistle or a few bell rings on start-up of a few of my
            Phoenix boards, but it's not consistent at all and I couldn't tell
            you which board they are.

            Later,

            K





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Geoff Ringlé
            Jonathan, Do you use P8 hookup option 1 or option 2 as illustrated on p.34 of the G3 manual? Geoff ... From: Jonathan Bliese To: AirWire
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 13, 2013
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              Jonathan,

              Do you use P8 hookup option 1 or option 2 as illustrated on p.34 of the G3 manual?

              Geoff

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jonathan Bliese <jonemw@...>
              To: AirWire <AirWire@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sat, Apr 13, 2013 12:21 pm
              Subject: RE: [AirWire] G3 / P8 startup glitch





              The 2 ohm resistor is not normally needed. I have already done a large
              number of G3 installations and have not used it yet. It is provided in order
              to limit inrush current , as some sound decoders will have a large surge
              when they start up. Note the word "some". Since CVP has no idea which sound
              decoder will be used, they include the part as a option.

              Go ahead an use it in this case, it will not degrade anything, and may
              stabilize the start up for this particular P8.

              Jonathan





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jonathan Bliese
              Option 1 is the way the old P5 was connected. However, in those days the DCC aux out of the Airwire stuff was limited to one amp , if I recall correctly. There
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 13, 2013
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                Option 1 is the way the old P5 was connected. However, in those days the DCC
                aux out of the Airwire stuff was limited to one amp , if I recall correctly.
                There were some problems, not because of design issues, but because of the
                very large number of variables, and the incredibly lame( read dumb) things
                some customers came up with on installations of their own. If one turned the
                volume of a p5 to max, then operated whistle , chuff or engine sounds, and
                also some background sound effects, then you could exceed design limits.

                The p8 was released with separate power leads, so that intelligence(dcc) and
                power did not need to be on the same pair of wires- As shown in option 2 of
                the diagram. Now, the g3 has a dcc aux out of 3 amps so current limiting is
                not so much of factor.

                In my installations, I use a module called a BIK: battery install kit. In
                includes on board circuit breakers, terminal strips for with screw terms for
                battery input, and output, charge prot connections, and an integrated charge
                circuit changeover , plus a pre wired charging port. Thus I use option 2 as
                I have available 2 full sets of main power outputs, without the need to
                splice wires or double up wire connections on single screw terminals .

                Also noted was the fact you are using 18.5 volt batteries. Sort of overkill
                for narrow gauge, but the CVP manual notes if battery voltage exceeds 16v,
                then accommodation needs to be made.



                All my customer for both hardware by itself, complete systems including
                battery packs and chargers, and for EMW installations receive at no extra
                charge full, complete and comprehensive technical support both before and
                after the sale, along with free shipping of all electronics purchases over
                125.00.



                Jonathan

                www.rctrains.com

                Now in our 23rd year of radio control battery conversion for large scale.
                Been there , done that.





                From: AirWire@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirWire@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Geoff Ringlé
                Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 9:42 AM
                To: AirWire@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [AirWire] G3 / P8 startup glitch






                Jonathan,

                Do you use P8 hookup option 1 or option 2 as illustrated on p.34 of the G3
                manual?

                Geoff

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Jonathan Bliese <jonemw@... <mailto:jonemw%40verizon.net> >
                To: AirWire <AirWire@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirWire%40yahoogroups.com> >
                Sent: Sat, Apr 13, 2013 12:21 pm
                Subject: RE: [AirWire] G3 / P8 startup glitch

                The 2 ohm resistor is not normally needed. I have already done a large
                number of G3 installations and have not used it yet. It is provided in order
                to limit inrush current , as some sound decoders will have a large surge
                when they start up. Note the word "some". Since CVP has no idea which sound
                decoder will be used, they include the part as a option.

                Go ahead an use it in this case, it will not degrade anything, and may
                stabilize the start up for this particular P8.

                Jonathan

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Geoff Ringlé
                Jonathan, Are we reading the same G3 manual regarding P8 hookup, page 34? I m using option 2. The manual specifically states with option 2 No surge limit
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 13, 2013
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                  Jonathan, Are we reading the same G3 manual regarding P8 hookup, page 34?

                  I'm using option 2. The manual specifically states with option 2 "No surge limit resistor is necessary. Any battery voltage may be used up to the G3 limit of 24V."

                  Yep, 18.5 V LI-ion. The next size down is 14.8 which is not quite enough.

                  I'm not the only one that has experienced the problem. The problem is annoying, but after the bell, whistle and crossing whistle malfunction the first time they will start to function normally.

                  Geoff




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bill Swindell
                  I have only installed 1 G3/P8 combination. I DID need to use the resistor. I had hooked the 4 wires to the DCC output and, without the resistor, there was no
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 14, 2013
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                    I have only installed 1 G3/P8 combination. I DID need to use the resistor. I
                    had hooked the 4 wires to the DCC output and, without the resistor, there
                    was no sound. Please note that the G3 only puts out ½ the DCC amperage as
                    the G2. If you are using a 14.4v, 14.8v or higher voltage battery, you will
                    need to limit the inrush current if you draw all of the P8 power from the
                    DCC terminals. When my first install didn’t work, Al said to use the
                    resistor. That made it work properly.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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