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Re: Mallory vs vertex mag

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  • veeeduber
    ... engine conversion. ... You re welcome. If the it above refers to the Mallory magneto, I m sure it will do just fine. Once the engine is running :-)
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 1 2:56 AM
      --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Glade Eggett" <eggett@n...> wrote:
      > Thank you... From what a gather it should work just fine on my
      engine conversion.

      -------------------------------------------

      You're welcome. If the 'it' above refers to the Mallory magneto, I'm
      sure it will do just fine. Once the engine is running :-) Unlike
      aircraft magnetos which use a catch-pawl clutch for starting, or
      industrial engine magentoes that offer a 'Start' and 'Run' setting,
      most magnetoes provide only a fixed firing point. If that point is
      well advanced from TDC... say, 25 or 30 degrees... the engine is
      usually push-started or with an auxiliary starter motor that spins it
      up to four or five hundred rpm.

      When starting an engine manually, either with a crank or a by
      flipping the propeller, you want the static firing point to be near
      TDC or even slightly after. But since the process of combustion
      takes a FIXED amount of time, if you want the engine to run at more
      than a few hundred rpm, once it is running you must ignite the
      mixture before TDC occurs, how much before depending on the desired
      rpm. (I mention this because the fact combustion always takes about
      the same amount of time, not matter how fast the engine is turning,
      is often overlooked.)

      That is one of the reasons I prefer to use a regular ignition system
      rather than a magneto.

      A magneto is nothing more than an ignition system that generates its
      own power. That power comes from a small and relatively primitive
      permanent-magnet type dynamo and has not changed in any significant
      way in more than a hundred years.

      In the HVX modes posted to the FILES section of this newsgroup I've
      shown how a modern permanent magnet type of dynamo may be fitted to
      the VW engine. Since the heart of any magneto is its dynamo it would
      not be out of line to say I've simply repackaged the componets of a
      magneto ignition system.

      The PM dynamo shown in the drawings is very conservatively rated at 8
      amperes @ 2800 rpm. It's main purpose is to provide power for a
      solid-state Compu-Fire dual-coil waste-spark ignition system. The
      system uses a mechanical-advance VW distributor. Aside from the low
      cost and light weight of such a system (as compared to a magneto),
      the distributor provides a dynamic range of about twenty-five
      degrees. That means it will start reliably on the first flip
      (fingers crossed :-) yet allows the engine to reach high rpm by
      simply advancing the throttle (but carefully, since there is no
      accelerator pump on the carb I'm using).

      Plus, I get to run my 8-track tape deck :-) All for considerably
      less cost than the typical magneto.

      -R.S.Hoover
    • Graeme Davey
      ... Interesting thread here, I have a Type4 which has a waste spark system,a Sure-fire system originally put together by Hapi Engines (I think) and, I have
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 1 5:17 AM
        veeeduber wrote:

        >--- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Glade Eggett" <eggett@n...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >>Thank you... From what a gather it should work just fine on my
        >>
        >>
        >engine conversion.
        >
        >-------------------------------------------
        >
        >You're welcome. If the 'it' above refers to the Mallory magneto, I'm
        >sure it will do just fine. Once the engine is running :-) Unlike
        >aircraft magnetos which use a catch-pawl clutch for starting, or
        >industrial engine magentoes that offer a 'Start' and 'Run' setting,
        >most magnetoes provide only a fixed firing point. If that point is
        >well advanced from TDC... say, 25 or 30 degrees... the engine is
        >usually push-started or with an auxiliary starter motor that spins it
        >up to four or five hundred rpm.
        >
        >When starting an engine manually, either with a crank or a by
        >flipping the propeller, you want the static firing point to be near
        >TDC or even slightly after. But since the process of combustion
        >takes a FIXED amount of time, if you want the engine to run at more
        >than a few hundred rpm, once it is running you must ignite the
        >mixture before TDC occurs, how much before depending on the desired
        >rpm. (I mention this because the fact combustion always takes about
        >the same amount of time, not matter how fast the engine is turning,
        >is often overlooked.)
        >
        >That is one of the reasons I prefer to use a regular ignition system
        >rather than a magneto.
        >
        >A magneto is nothing more than an ignition system that generates its
        >own power. That power comes from a small and relatively primitive
        >permanent-magnet type dynamo and has not changed in any significant
        >way in more than a hundred years.
        >
        >In the HVX modes posted to the FILES section of this newsgroup I've
        >shown how a modern permanent magnet type of dynamo may be fitted to
        >the VW engine. Since the heart of any magneto is its dynamo it would
        >not be out of line to say I've simply repackaged the componets of a
        >magneto ignition system.
        >
        >The PM dynamo shown in the drawings is very conservatively rated at 8
        >amperes @ 2800 rpm. It's main purpose is to provide power for a
        >solid-state Compu-Fire dual-coil waste-spark ignition system. The
        >system uses a mechanical-advance VW distributor. Aside from the low
        >cost and light weight of such a system (as compared to a magneto),
        >the distributor provides a dynamic range of about twenty-five
        >degrees. That means it will start reliably on the first flip
        >(fingers crossed :-) yet allows the engine to reach high rpm by
        >simply advancing the throttle (but carefully, since there is no
        >accelerator pump on the carb I'm using).
        >
        >Plus, I get to run my 8-track tape deck :-) All for considerably
        >less cost than the typical magneto.
        >
        >-R.S.Hoover
        >
        >
        >
        Interesting thread here, I have a Type4 which has a waste spark system,a
        Sure-fire system originally put together by Hapi Engines (I think)
        and, I have always had trouble starting it, have to wind it over to
        build up speed and it will finally fire up, never been able to prop
        start yet. What are your suggestions to improving this for easier starting
        Graeme in Aust.
      • veeeduber
        ... think) ... starting ... Dear Graeme, It sounds as if your system has a fixed firing point, similar to the method used by Sonex and others. If that is the
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 1 7:43 AM
          --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Graeme Davey <zyrose@i...> wrote:

          > I have a Type4 which has a waste spark system,a
          > Sure-fire system originally put together by Hapi Engines (I
          think)
          > and, I have always had trouble starting it, have to wind it over to
          > build up speed and it will finally fire up, never been able to prop
          > start yet. What are your suggestions to improving this for easier
          starting
          > Graeme in Aust.

          ---------------------------------------------------

          Dear Graeme,

          It sounds as if your system has a fixed firing point, similar to the
          method used by Sonex and others. If that is the case I think it would
          be wise to NEVER hand-prop the engine. With the firing point
          advanced to the running position there's good chance it will kick-
          back. This may happen too fast for you to get your hands out of the
          prop's arc.

          Magneto ignition systems date from about 1870. They often used a
          vibrating 'spark coil' or 'shower of sparks' for starting. Another
          strategy was to provide some means of manually altering the spark
          TIMING. The Model 'T' Ford used an enormous PM dynamo built into the
          flywheel in conjunction with four spark coils, plus manually
          controlled spark timing.

          What most people think of as 'stock' automotive ignition, using the
          traditional coil & points, is the Kittering system, used by most car
          makers since about 1919.

          Waste-spark systems came into use in the early 1920's and were first
          used on two-cylinder motorcycles.

          These are common methods of producing the spark required for internal
          combustion engines. The point here is that HOW the spark is produced
          has nothing to do with WHEN it is produced, whereas starting the
          engine does.

          The waste-spark system I described (ie, the Compu-Fire unit) uses the
          basic Kittering method of producing the spark, although like most
          modern systems, it has replaced the mechanical switch (ie,
          the 'points') with a husky transistor, triggered by a Hall effect
          sensor and its related amplifier & control circuit. The guts of the
          unit are transparent to the user and because of its solid-state
          nature, most failures are cases of 'crib death.' So long as it is
          kept cool, if works out of the box it will usually continue to do so
          for the next 5,000 hours or so.

          But this has nothing to do with ignition TIMING and it is the timing
          that determines how easily the engine will start, as already
          described in a previous post.

          The Compu-Fire unit replaces the stock ignition points with a pair of
          magnetic pick-ups. The original distributor BODY is retained but the
          familiar distributor cap is replaced with a flat aluminum plate; with
          waste-spark each coil is wired directly to a pair of spark plugs.

          By keeping the original distributor BODY the system also retains the
          original ability to DYNAMICALLY ALTER THE FIRING POINT. And that is
          the secret to easy starting (and smooth operation in general). With
          the engine at rest, the springs on the advance-plate put the firing
          point near TDC, allowing the engine to fire with a simple flip of the
          prop. Once the engine is running, centrifugal force causes the bob-
          weights on the advance place to advance the firing point; the higher
          the rpm, the greater the advance up to a maximum of 28 or 30 degrees
          (more than is need for propeller speeds).

          ------------------------------------------

          With modern automotive systems the firing point is determined by the
          engine's on-board computer. By monitoring about twelve timing-
          related variables, such as manifold pressure, rpm and throttle
          position, the computer is able to determine not only the LOAD that is
          being placed on the engine but the NATURE of that load (ie,
          acceleration, climbing a hill, etc.) and adjust the firing point
          accordingly. Fortunately, this level of sophistication is not
          normally required for a more-or-less constant-speed engine as found
          in most light aircraft.

          ---------------------------------------------

          So how do you make your engine easier to start? I don't know. TWith
          systems as you've described there are a number of methods that allow
          the positon of either the pick-up or the entire ignition module to be
          altered, providing a zero-advance position for starting and a more
          advanced position for running. But I've no idea if those methods
          would apply to your engine.

          Sorry I can't be of more help.

          -R.S.Hoover

          PS -- For the nitpickers: There are several dozen methods of spark
          generation, such as make & break, etc., that I chose not to mention :-
          )
        • flybynightkarmarepair
          ... system,a ... think) ... starting ... One thing you might consider is mechanically changing the timing. As I recall, the HAPI system used a cut down
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 1 11:16 AM
            > Interesting thread here, I have a Type4 which has a waste spark
            system,a
            > Sure-fire system originally put together by Hapi Engines (I
            think)
            > and, I have always had trouble starting it, have to wind it over to
            > build up speed and it will finally fire up, never been able to prop
            > start yet. What are your suggestions to improving this for easier
            starting
            > Graeme in Aust.

            One thing you might consider is mechanically changing the timing. As
            I recall, the HAPI system used a cut down distributor as the
            trigger. If you can figure a way to alter the distributor clamp to
            keep it snug in the case (I.E. not jump up and down) and yet be able
            to rotate, you could rig up a vernier throttle push-pull cable to be
            able to dial in whatever spark advance/retard you want, by rotating
            the distributor/spark trigger. Full retard to start, advance to run.

            Another plan would be to strip the electronic guts out of the
            existing trigger and rebuild them into an appropriate distributor for
            your case with centrifugal advance.
          • Ray Leonard
            ... Nitpick: I believe make & break describes the system developed by Charles Kettering (not Kittering). Ray
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 1 2:14 PM
              veeeduber wrote:

              > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Graeme Davey <zyrose@i...> wrote:
              >
              > > I have a Type4 which has a waste spark system,a
              > > Sure-fire system originally put together by Hapi Engines (I
              > think)
              > > and, I have always had trouble starting it, have to wind it over to
              > > build up speed and it will finally fire up, never been able to prop
              > > start yet. What are your suggestions to improving this for easier
              > starting
              > > Graeme in Aust.
              >
              > ---------------------------------------------------
              >
              > Dear Graeme,
              >
              > It sounds as if your system has a fixed firing point, similar to the
              > method used by Sonex and others. If that is the case I think it would
              > be wise to NEVER hand-prop the engine. With the firing point
              > advanced to the running position there's good chance it will kick-
              > back. This may happen too fast for you to get your hands out of the
              > prop's arc.
              >
              > Magneto ignition systems date from about 1870. They often used a
              > vibrating 'spark coil' or 'shower of sparks' for starting. Another
              > strategy was to provide some means of manually altering the spark
              > TIMING. The Model 'T' Ford used an enormous PM dynamo built into the
              > flywheel in conjunction with four spark coils, plus manually
              > controlled spark timing.
              >
              > What most people think of as 'stock' automotive ignition, using the
              > traditional coil & points, is the Kittering system, used by most car
              > makers since about 1919.
              >
              > Waste-spark systems came into use in the early 1920's and were first
              > used on two-cylinder motorcycles.
              >
              > These are common methods of producing the spark required for internal
              > combustion engines. The point here is that HOW the spark is produced
              > has nothing to do with WHEN it is produced, whereas starting the
              > engine does.
              >
              > The waste-spark system I described (ie, the Compu-Fire unit) uses the
              > basic Kittering method of producing the spark, although like most
              > modern systems, it has replaced the mechanical switch (ie,
              > the 'points') with a husky transistor, triggered by a Hall effect
              > sensor and its related amplifier & control circuit. The guts of the
              > unit are transparent to the user and because of its solid-state
              > nature, most failures are cases of 'crib death.' So long as it is
              > kept cool, if works out of the box it will usually continue to do so
              > for the next 5,000 hours or so.
              >
              > But this has nothing to do with ignition TIMING and it is the timing
              > that determines how easily the engine will start, as already
              > described in a previous post.
              >
              > The Compu-Fire unit replaces the stock ignition points with a pair of
              > magnetic pick-ups. The original distributor BODY is retained but the
              > familiar distributor cap is replaced with a flat aluminum plate; with
              > waste-spark each coil is wired directly to a pair of spark plugs.
              >
              > By keeping the original distributor BODY the system also retains the
              > original ability to DYNAMICALLY ALTER THE FIRING POINT. And that is
              > the secret to easy starting (and smooth operation in general). With
              > the engine at rest, the springs on the advance-plate put the firing
              > point near TDC, allowing the engine to fire with a simple flip of the
              > prop. Once the engine is running, centrifugal force causes the bob-
              > weights on the advance place to advance the firing point; the higher
              > the rpm, the greater the advance up to a maximum of 28 or 30 degrees
              > (more than is need for propeller speeds).
              >
              > ------------------------------------------
              >
              > With modern automotive systems the firing point is determined by the
              > engine's on-board computer. By monitoring about twelve timing-
              > related variables, such as manifold pressure, rpm and throttle
              > position, the computer is able to determine not only the LOAD that is
              > being placed on the engine but the NATURE of that load (ie,
              > acceleration, climbing a hill, etc.) and adjust the firing point
              > accordingly. Fortunately, this level of sophistication is not
              > normally required for a more-or-less constant-speed engine as found
              > in most light aircraft.
              >
              > ---------------------------------------------
              >
              > So how do you make your engine easier to start? I don't know. TWith
              > systems as you've described there are a number of methods that allow
              > the positon of either the pick-up or the entire ignition module to be
              > altered, providing a zero-advance position for starting and a more
              > advanced position for running. But I've no idea if those methods
              > would apply to your engine.
              >
              > Sorry I can't be of more help.
              >
              > -R.S.Hoover
              >
              > PS -- For the nitpickers: There are several dozen methods of spark
              > generation, such as make & break, etc, that I chose not to mention :-)

              Nitpick: I believe 'make & break' describes the system developed
              by Charles Kettering (not Kittering).

              Ray
            • Harold Hadaller
              Compu-fire has a good waste spark system for VW s. The DIS system uses two coils and two trigger circuits. About 60,000 volts available but that depends on
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 1 9:09 PM
                Compu-fire has a good waste spark system for VW's. The DIS system uses two
                coils and two trigger circuits. About 60,000 volts available but that
                depends on the spark gap. You can run 50 thousanths gap with this system.
                Throw away all but the mechanical advance part of your 050 distributor and
                insert a new plate and magnet cam and a new cap. The wires from the cap
                connect to the two coils. Under $200.

                Hal

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "veeeduber" <veeduber@...>
                To: <AirVW@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:58 PM
                Subject: [AirVW] Re: Mallory vs vertex mag


                > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "gladepsych" <eggett@n...> wrote:
                > > Has anyone used or heard of using the Mallory Magneto on their VW
                > > conversion? I have heard that they are more reliable than Vertex.
                > > They are used on race engines all the time. They cost about the
                > same
                > > but seem a little smaller. Thoughts?
                > >
                > > You can also get a set up that fires on compression and exhaust
                > > stoke giving a cleaner fire and less chance of fowled plugs. Not a
                > > cheap add on.
                >
                > -------------------------------------------
                >
                > Mallory has offered magnetos for VW-powered sprint cars for a number
                > of years. They use rare earth magnets instead of the al-ni-co
                > magnets in the Vertex, allowing them to be a little smaller and about
                > five pounds lighter. At prop speeds they are no more reliable than
                > the Vertex but they may be more reliable in sprint car applications.
                > (Sprint cars typically turn six to eight thousand rpm.)
                >
                > Volkswagen offered several industrial engines with Vertex-Scintilla
                > magnetos. As with most magneto applications, these were constant-
                > speed engines typically operated at fairly low rpm and low levels of
                > output to insure maximum reliability. While the magneto did
                > perfectly well for those applications they produced a relatively low
                > level of spark energy. Increasing the compression ratio or
                > attempting to operate them at higher rpm lead to many complaints of
                > poor reliability.
                >
                > The second thing you've described is a 'waste-spark' system, standard
                > on most cars since the mid-1980's. Several manufacturers offer waste-
                > spark systems for the VW. But waste-spark is NOT a magneto; it
                > requires a source of power. Even so, given it's wide dynamic range,
                > easy hand-propping and superior MTBO, a modern waste-spark system is
                > typically more reliable, less expensive and offers better performance
                > than any magneto-based ignition system, in my opinion.
                >
                > -R.S.Hoover
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > AirVW-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Patrick Panzera
                Hey gang, CONTACT! Magazine is hosting an engine forum tent at this year s Copper State Fly-in (http://www.copperstate.org/), and we are looking for a speaker
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 17, 2003
                  Hey gang,

                  CONTACT! Magazine is hosting an engine forum tent at this year's Copper
                  State Fly-in (http://www.copperstate.org/), and we are looking for a
                  speaker to represent (and/or present) the VW engine.

                  For years the VW engine has been overlooked by our magazine, and as
                  such, the forums we host have not covered V-dubs. I'd like to change
                  this.

                  I have a few spots availed, and I can do some rearranging to suit one's
                  needs.
                  The forums run Thursday (Oct 9th) to Sunday (Oct 12), from roughly 9am
                  to 1pm

                  Let me know if you'd like to help!

                  Pat
                • Chris Adkins
                  Why don t you call Steve Bennett at GPASC and ask him? He s GOT to be at the top of the list regarding knowledge and experience with VW conversions in
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 17, 2003
                    Why don't you call Steve Bennett at GPASC and ask him? He's GOT to be
                    at the top of the list regarding knowledge and experience with VW
                    conversions in aircraft. I'm sure he'd appreciate the personal
                    invitation.
                    Chris

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Patrick Panzera [mailto:panzera@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:34 PM
                    To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [AirVW] Copper State

                    Hey gang,

                    CONTACT! Magazine is hosting an engine forum tent at this year's Copper
                    State Fly-in (http://www.copperstate.org/), and we are looking for a
                    speaker to represent (and/or present) the VW engine.

                    For years the VW engine has been overlooked by our magazine, and as
                    such, the forums we host have not covered V-dubs. I'd like to change
                    this.

                    I have a few spots availed, and I can do some rearranging to suit one's
                    needs.
                    The forums run Thursday (Oct 9th) to Sunday (Oct 12), from roughly 9am
                    to 1pm

                    Let me know if you'd like to help!

                    Pat





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                  • Neil & Annette Rupp
                    I agree with Criss Steve is at the top of the list on aircraft VW engines. Neil R ... From: Chris Adkins To: Sent:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 17, 2003
                      I agree with Criss Steve is at the top of the list on aircraft VW engines.
                      Neil R
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Chris Adkins <ccadkins@...>
                      To: <AirVW@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:41 PM
                      Subject: RE: [AirVW] Copper State


                      > Why don't you call Steve Bennett at GPASC and ask him? He's GOT to be
                      > at the top of the list regarding knowledge and experience with VW
                      > conversions in aircraft. I'm sure he'd appreciate the personal
                      > invitation.
                      > Chris
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Patrick Panzera [mailto:panzera@...]
                      > Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:34 PM
                      > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [AirVW] Copper State
                      >
                      > Hey gang,
                      >
                      > CONTACT! Magazine is hosting an engine forum tent at this year's Copper
                      > State Fly-in (http://www.copperstate.org/), and we are looking for a
                      > speaker to represent (and/or present) the VW engine.
                      >
                      > For years the VW engine has been overlooked by our magazine, and as
                      > such, the forums we host have not covered V-dubs. I'd like to change
                      > this.
                      >
                      > I have a few spots availed, and I can do some rearranging to suit one's
                      > needs.
                      > The forums run Thursday (Oct 9th) to Sunday (Oct 12), from roughly 9am
                      > to 1pm
                      >
                      > Let me know if you'd like to help!
                      >
                      > Pat
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >
                      >
                      > ADVERTISEMENT
                      >
                      > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
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                      > de=30509&media=atkins> click here
                      >
                      >
                      > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egrou
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                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > AirVW-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > AirVW-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • Andre Viljoen
                      How about R.S. Hoover? How about it Bob? What s your feeling? Advantage would be no vested interest in selling engines, but lots and lots and lots of unbiased
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 18, 2003
                        How about R.S. Hoover?

                        How about it Bob? What's your feeling?

                        Advantage would be no vested interest in selling engines, but lots and lots and lots of unbiased Veeeduber knowledge!

                        :-)
                        Patrick Panzera <panzera@...> wrote:
                        Hey gang,

                        CONTACT! Magazine is hosting an engine forum tent at this year's Copper
                        State Fly-in (http://www.copperstate.org/), and we are looking for a
                        speaker to represent (and/or present) the VW engine.

                        For years the VW engine has been overlooked by our magazine, and as
                        such, the forums we host have not covered V-dubs. I'd like to change
                        this.

                        I have a few spots availed, and I can do some rearranging to suit one's
                        needs.
                        The forums run Thursday (Oct 9th) to Sunday (Oct 12), from roughly 9am
                        to 1pm

                        Let me know if you'd like to help!

                        Pat


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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • veeeduber
                        ... Dear Andre (and the Group), I appreciate the thought but I m pretty busy right now. And I really haven t anything to say that you can t read for yourself
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 18, 2003
                          --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Andre Viljoen <andrewynandviljoen@y...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > How about R.S. Hoover?
                          >
                          > How about it Bob? What's your feeling?
                          >
                          ---------------------------------------------

                          Dear Andre (and the Group),

                          I appreciate the thought but I'm pretty busy right now. And I really
                          haven't anything to say that you can't read for yourself in the
                          manuals from Continental, Lycoming, Pratt-Whitney or Wright.

                          Later this fall I hope to have some quantified comparitive data from
                          my thermal barrier coating experiments. (Which ISN'T in any of the
                          manuals.) The preliminary work with one-cylinder engines indicates
                          TBC's put an advantageous kink in the BMEP curve for air cooled
                          engines. Extrapolation from 6cid to 140cid offers some evidence that
                          the three years of experiments may pay off. Or they may not.

                          The truth is, I'm not entirely clear as to the purpose of a 'seminar'
                          on engines since an engine is perfectly capable of speaking for
                          itself. Indeed, over the years I've found it best to let the engines
                          have the final word since they tend to do so anyway :-)

                          -R.S.Hoover
                        • danielbk
                          ... Ah, but the trick is in teaching the deaf to listen, and that s why you d make a good candidate. Daniel .
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 18, 2003
                            veeeduber wrote:
                            > ... an engine is perfectly capable of speaking for
                            > itself. Indeed, over the years I've found it best
                            > to let the engines have the final word since they
                            > tend to do so anyway :-)



                            Ah, but the trick is in teaching the deaf to listen, and that's why
                            you'd make a good candidate.

                            Daniel












                            .
                          • jtf@dejazzd.com
                            ... As a newbie to homebuilt airplanes, I am looking for a first project. The words of wisdom from someone more experienced is very important. It would be
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 18, 2003
                              On 18 Sep 2003 at 12:06, veeeduber wrote:

                              > ....Indeed, over the years I've found it best to let the engines
                              > have the final word since they tend to do so anyway :-)
                              >
                              > -R.S.Hoover

                              As a newbie to homebuilt airplanes, I am looking for a first project. The words of
                              wisdom from someone more experienced is very important. It would be foolish for me
                              to repeat the mistakes of someone else. There is a continual influx of new blood that
                              needs to be encouraged and instructed. I don't even know where to:

                              "read for yourself in the
                              manuals from Continental, Lycoming, Pratt-Whitney or Wright."


                              These seminars may be old material for the more experienced, but are necessary for
                              keeping the newbies (like myself) on the straight and narrow.

                              john



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • cahoontc
                              Dear Bob, Remember when Oshkosh was Fun! Copperstate is like that. Last year in addition to small airplanes and seminars, I relearned to rib stitch and camped
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 18, 2003
                                Dear Bob,

                                Remember when Oshkosh was Fun! Copperstate is like that. Last year in
                                addition to small airplanes and seminars, I relearned to rib stitch and
                                camped on the grass. Now you have a new generation of grandkids to pass
                                on what you have learned. Tell them why the details are important and
                                that 'when it's perfect it's goodenuf ' for flying.

                                Tom , Tucson, AZ
                                Four kids, three pilots and one controller (she has worked OSH for seven
                                years)

                                http://www.copperstate.org/
                                http://www.phoenixregionalairport.com/


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "veeeduber" <veeduber@...>
                                To: <AirVW@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 5:06 AM
                                Subject: [AirVW] Re: Copper State
                                >
                                > The truth is, I'm not entirely clear as to the purpose of a 'seminar'
                                > on engines since an engine is perfectly capable of speaking for
                                > itself. Indeed, over the years I've found it best to let the engines
                                > have the final word since they tend to do so anyway :-)
                                >
                                > -R.S.Hoover
                                >
                              • John Waugh
                                Nice answer Bob .. was worried you might be stepping to a shooting gallery! ... From: veeeduber To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 18, 2003
                                  Nice answer Bob .. was worried you might be stepping to a shooting gallery!
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: veeeduber
                                  To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:06 AM
                                  Subject: [AirVW] Re: Copper State


                                  --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Andre Viljoen <andrewynandviljoen@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > How about R.S. Hoover?
                                  >
                                  > How about it Bob? What's your feeling?
                                  >
                                  ---------------------------------------------

                                  Dear Andre (and the Group),

                                  The truth is, I'm not entirely clear as to the purpose of a 'seminar'
                                  on engines since an engine is perfectly capable of speaking for
                                  itself. Indeed, over the years I've found it best to let the engines
                                  have the final word since they tend to do so anyway :-)

                                  -R.S.Hoover




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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