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Re: [AirVW] Ellison EFS2 for sale

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  • tj jones
    ... Thanks for your reply. It was very informative. I Saved your reply. If room permits I may try to add a small plenom to the base of the y-pipe with an
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
      --- tj jones <tjsonerailstype4@...> wrote:
      > Harold
      Thanks for your reply. It was very informative. I
      Saved your reply. If room permits I may try to add a
      small plenom to the base of the y-pipe with an Ellison
      flange. Here is another questions that you touched on
      and that is Carburator heat,Currently my plane does
      not have such a system. This is something that I
      intend to add. But very few Sonerai or Sonex with the
      aero V use Carb heat. The current thought is the
      Sonerai Cowling is so tight it is like having carb
      heat on all the time. And apparantly Ed Sterba several
      years ago used temp sensors in the carb and cowling to
      document tempertures. But after reviewing comments in
      a type 4 group regarding the use of the progressive
      single carb conversion for the type 4 for a VW bus,
      CArb ice is defintely a problem. It is reported that
      on a humid day you wil go about 5 miles and stop do
      to carb ice. THis system also uses relatively long
      intake runs . But I believe the runners are above the
      engine in the cooler air. For the progressive system
      bus owners frequently need to fabricate some sort of
      Carb heat(actually they heat the runners , or install
      a electric heating flange at the carb base). MAye the
      throttle body (less prone) being located down stream
      of the cylinders is being warmed by the preheated air
      from the cylinders. Maybe this is enougth maybe it
      isn't. If CArb ice is such a problem to land loving
      VW buses It should be a major concern to me. With the
      VW bus the change to a dual carb set up is the simple
      solutuon. So to be safe I intend to design some sort
      of carb heat, and use cool air for the mixture. The
      question would be are there any problems or special
      design that should be incorporated in the
      design(heating of) the long intake runners running
      from below the engine?

      Take Care

      Tom Jones
      Sonerai LS type 4

      > You are absolutely correct it is a type 4. The
      > engine
      > is> this problem. He said the Ellison by design
      will
      > evenly atomize the mixture and the use of a plenom
      > is
      > not necessary . but such a plenom would help a Posa.
      > So my question to you is , On your set up do you use
      > a
      > plenom or do you mount yours direct to flange
      > similer
      > to the GPAS y pipe? And if any other group member is
      >
      > using an Ellison mounted directly to a flange how
      > does
      > it work? Is there a problem with uneven cyl temps.
      > Since the Sonerai cowling is limited on space I
      > would
      > prefer to keep the set as is . So why change to an
      > Ellison? I need to do more homework but I do not
      > believe the Able is sized correctly for my engine.
      > Similar if I used the EFS2 for sizing.
      >
      > Take Care
      > Tom Jones
      > Sonerai 2LS type 4
      >
      > --- Harold Hadaller <flyhal@...> wrote:
      > > Must be a type 4 that you are building? You need
      > > the big one. $825 at Ellison. But I would not
      > > consider anything else considering how well these
      > > perform and no adjusting other than initian idle
      > > mixture.
      > >
      > > Hal
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: tj jones
      > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 5:40 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Ellison EFS2 for sale
      > >
      > >
      > > Harold
      > > Engine size is 78 stroke x 102m bore . This puts
      > > it
      > > around 2550 cc. So I believe I will need the
      > > larger 3A
      > > to optimize the HP potential.
      > >
      > > Tom
      > > --- Harold Hadaller <flyhal@...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > What size engine are you running? A 2 Liter
      > or
      > > so
      > > > should be okay on a EFS2. I have a 2.4 lilter
      > > > engine so needed the larger one although with
      > > the
      > > > fuel burn I am getting I am not sure that I
      > > really
      > > > needed the EFS3. The -3 cost about $300 more.
      >
      > > But
      > > > am glad that I bought the larger one as now I
      > > can
      > > > use it on my 200 cu. in. O-200 engine.
      > > >
      > > > Hal
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: tj jones
      > > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:45 PM
      > > > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Ellison EFS2 for sale
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Harold
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for the heads up on the Ellison
      > > throttle
      > > > body.
      > > > I am looking for an Ellison for my VW
      > > project.,
      > > > But I
      > > > am in need of the EFS 3A. So if any one in
      > the
      > > > group
      > > > has one for sale or hears anything like
      > Harold
      > > did
      > > > ,
      > > > Please let me know.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks
      > > >
      > > > Tom Jones
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- Harold Hadaller
      > <flyhal@...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871355270
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have
      > been
      > > > > removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > __________________________________________________
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    • Harold Hadaller
      Like I said in my comments earlier, I have not had to use carb heat or have had any indication at all of a need and have very long runners. But what I built
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
        Like I said in my comments earlier, I have not had to use carb heat or have had any indication at all of a need and have very long runners. But what I built up, just in case I might need it, was a thru K&N filter. I took a small tapered filter (3" dia. x 5" approx) and cut another 2" hole in the opposite end and put it between the carb and outside ram air on the nose bowl. I then put a cable controlled flapper plate inside the opening near the nose bowl to force air to be sucked thru the filter from under the engine.

        Many people, however, do not use outside air for their induction air, but just use the warm air from under the cylinders. This is most likely adequate to keep from icing. But using warm air does not help the induction system in producing power from your engine. Cold dense air is better for making horsepower.

        Ellison says that one should have carb deicing. I also had an Ellison on an Lycoming O-320 and never had to use carb heat. But the El;lison is bolted directly to the hot oil sump which keeps it warm and less likely to ice.

        Hal
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: tj jones
        To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 6:28 AM
        Subject: Re: [AirVW] Ellison EFS2 for sale



        --- tj jones <tjsonerailstype4@...> wrote:
        > Harold
        Thanks for your reply. It was very informative. I
        Saved your reply. If room permits I may try to add a
        small plenom to the base of the y-pipe with an Ellison
        flange. Here is another questions that you touched on
        and that is Carburator heat,Currently my plane does
        not have such a system. This is something that I
        intend to add. But very few Sonerai or Sonex with the
        aero V use Carb heat. The current thought is the
        Sonerai Cowling is so tight it is like having carb
        heat on all the time. And apparantly Ed Sterba several
        years ago used temp sensors in the carb and cowling to
        document tempertures. But after reviewing comments in
        a type 4 group regarding the use of the progressive
        single carb conversion for the type 4 for a VW bus,
        CArb ice is defintely a problem. It is reported that
        on a humid day you wil go about 5 miles and stop do
        to carb ice. THis system also uses relatively long
        intake runs . But I believe the runners are above the
        engine in the cooler air. For the progressive system
        bus owners frequently need to fabricate some sort of
        Carb heat(actually they heat the runners , or install
        a electric heating flange at the carb base). MAye the
        throttle body (less prone) being located down stream
        of the cylinders is being warmed by the preheated air
        from the cylinders. Maybe this is enougth maybe it
        isn't. If CArb ice is such a problem to land loving
        VW buses It should be a major concern to me. With the
        VW bus the change to a dual carb set up is the simple
        solutuon. So to be safe I intend to design some sort
        of carb heat, and use cool air for the mixture. The
        question would be are there any problems or special
        design that should be incorporated in the
        design(heating of) the long intake runners running
        from below the engine?

        Take Care

        Tom Jones
        Sonerai LS type 4

        > You are absolutely correct it is a type 4. The
        > engine
        > is> this problem. He said the Ellison by design
        will
        > evenly atomize the mixture and the use of a plenom
        > is
        > not necessary . but such a plenom would help a Posa.
        > So my question to you is , On your set up do you use
        > a
        > plenom or do you mount yours direct to flange
        > similer
        > to the GPAS y pipe? And if any other group member is
        >
        > using an Ellison mounted directly to a flange how
        > does
        > it work? Is there a problem with uneven cyl temps.
        > Since the Sonerai cowling is limited on space I
        > would
        > prefer to keep the set as is . So why change to an
        > Ellison? I need to do more homework but I do not
        > believe the Able is sized correctly for my engine.
        > Similar if I used the EFS2 for sizing.
        >
        > Take Care
        > Tom Jones
        > Sonerai 2LS type 4
        >
        > --- Harold Hadaller <flyhal@...> wrote:
        > > Must be a type 4 that you are building? You need
        > > the big one. $825 at Ellison. But I would not
        > > consider anything else considering how well these
        > > perform and no adjusting other than initian idle
        > > mixture.
        > >
        > > Hal
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: tj jones
        > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 5:40 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Ellison EFS2 for sale
        > >
        > >
        > > Harold
        > > Engine size is 78 stroke x 102m bore . This puts
        > > it
        > > around 2550 cc. So I believe I will need the
        > > larger 3A
        > > to optimize the HP potential.
        > >
        > > Tom
        > > --- Harold Hadaller <flyhal@...>
        > > wrote:
        > > > What size engine are you running? A 2 Liter
        > or
        > > so
        > > > should be okay on a EFS2. I have a 2.4 lilter
        > > > engine so needed the larger one although with
        > > the
        > > > fuel burn I am getting I am not sure that I
        > > really
        > > > needed the EFS3. The -3 cost about $300 more.
        >
        > > But
        > > > am glad that I bought the larger one as now I
        > > can
        > > > use it on my 200 cu. in. O-200 engine.
        > > >
        > > > Hal
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: tj jones
        > > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:45 PM
        > > > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Ellison EFS2 for sale
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Harold
        > > >
        > > > Thanks for the heads up on the Ellison
        > > throttle
        > > > body.
        > > > I am looking for an Ellison for my VW
        > > project.,
        > > > But I
        > > > am in need of the EFS 3A. So if any one in
        > the
        > > > group
        > > > has one for sale or hears anything like
        > Harold
        > > did
        > > > ,
        > > > Please let me know.
        > > >
        > > > Thanks
        > > >
        > > > Tom Jones
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- Harold Hadaller
        > <flyhal@...>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871355270
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have
        > been
        > > > > removed]
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > __________________________________________________
        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
        > > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an
        > email
        > > to:
        > > > AirVW-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
        > > Yahoo!
        > > > Terms of Service.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > > > removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > __________________________________________________
        > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
        > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
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        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > ADVERTISEMENT
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        > to:
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ace_mccool
        ... heat or have had any indication at all of a need and have very long runners. (big snip!) Hmmmm, What would long runners have to do with anything? It s the
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
          --- In AirVW@y..., "Harold Hadaller" <flyhal@w...> wrote:
          > Like I said in my comments earlier, I have not had to use carb
          heat or have had any indication at all of a need and have very long
          runners.

          (big snip!)

          Hmmmm,
          What would long runners have to do with anything? It's the carb
          venturi that ices up. That's where the heat needs to be, no matter
          how long your intake runners are.

          James
          BTW...isn't much nicer to snip the loooong posts?
        • Harold Hadaller
          Long runners have a tendency for fuel to collect on the surface of the tubing and loss of atomization. Moisture in the air could also collect on the tubing.
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
            Long runners have a tendency for fuel to collect on the surface of the tubing and loss of atomization. Moisture in the air could also collect on the tubing. This could create some mixture problems and maybe freezing in the runners. The venturi effect makes the air colder on the backside of the carb. The carb is very isolated from the engine and virtually no heat for the tubes other than what might be gotten from the ambient air around the runners. The main thing here is that the tubing is small enough to keep a good velocity of the flow.

            GPAS intake systems mostly use long runners. Not so much for tuning but just to get the carb under the engine for gravity flow and no fuel leaks on top of the engine. But most people with Zenith carbs, etc use a carb heat system. Steve Bennett might have some comments on carb heat needs.

            Hal
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: ace_mccool
            To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:49 PM
            Subject: [AirVW] Re: Ellison EFS2 for sale


            --- In AirVW@y..., "Harold Hadaller" <flyhal@w...> wrote:
            > Like I said in my comments earlier, I have not had to use carb
            heat or have had any indication at all of a need and have very long
            runners.

            (big snip!)

            Hmmmm,
            What would long runners have to do with anything? It's the carb
            venturi that ices up. That's where the heat needs to be, no matter
            how long your intake runners are.

            James
            BTW...isn't much nicer to snip the loooong posts?


            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            AirVW-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Clare Snyder
            In Canada there is no question. You supply carb heat or you PROVE you do not need it. Not that you THINK you don t need it, or you shouldn t need it. You prove
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
              In Canada there is no question. You supply carb heat or you PROVE you do not
              need it. Not that you THINK you don't need it, or you shouldn't need it. You
              prove you don' need it, or you provide it.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Harold Hadaller" <flyhal@...>
              To: <AirVW@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 8:23 PM
              Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Ellison EFS2 for sale


              > Long runners have a tendency for fuel to collect on the surface of the
              tubing and loss of atomization. Moisture in the air could also collect on
              the tubing. This could create some mixture problems and maybe freezing in
              the runners. The venturi effect makes the air colder on the backside of the
              carb. The carb is very isolated from the engine and virtually no heat for
              the tubes other than what might be gotten from the ambient air around the
              runners. The main thing here is that the tubing is small enough to keep a
              good velocity of the flow.
              >
              > GPAS intake systems mostly use long runners. Not so much for tuning but
              just to get the carb under the engine for gravity flow and no fuel leaks on
              top of the engine. But most people with Zenith carbs, etc use a carb heat
              system. Steve Bennett might have some comments on carb heat needs.
              >
              > Hal
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: ace_mccool
              > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:49 PM
              > Subject: [AirVW] Re: Ellison EFS2 for sale
              >
              >
              > --- In AirVW@y..., "Harold Hadaller" <flyhal@w...> wrote:
              > > Like I said in my comments earlier, I have not had to use carb
              > heat or have had any indication at all of a need and have very long
              > runners.
              >
              > (big snip!)
              >
              > Hmmmm,
              > What would long runners have to do with anything? It's the carb
              > venturi that ices up. That's where the heat needs to be, no matter
              > how long your intake runners are.
              >
              > James
              > BTW...isn't much nicer to snip the loooong posts?
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > AirVW-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > AirVW-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • CaptonZap@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/1/02 4:50:12 PM Mountain Standard Time, nneely4@cogeco.ca writes:
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
                In a message dated 11/1/02 4:50:12 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                nneely4@... writes:

                << Hmmmm,
                What would long runners have to do with anything? It's the carb
                venturi that ices up. >>


                I think his point was that with long runners, there is small chance that any
                heat from the head would transfer to the carb body to help aleviate icing. Of
                course, you can have icing inside the runner where there is a change of flow
                direction, and the charge impinges on the outside of the elbow. Next time you
                get a chance, feel the temperature of the intake runners while the engine is
                at full song, to borrow a phrase from the British. Even on a balmy day, you
                have a cold making appliance there. CZ
              • Ron Voss
                The T where the runners split on my earlier manifold iced up on the outside quite a bit. Can only imagine the same on the inside. Ron Voss N41SX ... From:
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 2, 2002
                  The "T" where the runners split on my earlier manifold iced up on the outside quite a bit. Can only imagine the same on the inside.
                  Ron Voss N41SX
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: CaptonZap@...
                  Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 10:01 PM
                  To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Ellison EFS2 for sale

                  Next time you
                  get a chance, feel the temperature of the intake runners while the engine is
                  at full song, to borrow a phrase from the British. Even on a balmy day, you
                  have a cold making appliance there. CZGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


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