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Hand start

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  • ramjetwiebe
    I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting. I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the group. I ll post them
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 2, 2013
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      I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.

      I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the group. I'll post them later.

      So the question should be:

      What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?

      Here is what I have concocted so far:

      Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
      HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something like the Compufire going to be better?
      Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
      Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?

      As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the oil cooler as needed.

      If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers might be adequate to prevent carb ice.

      In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition. A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
    • Tom Graham
      My Teenie Two is running a 1600 with an 009 distributor, 8 to 1 compression, hand primer instead of a choke, Stromberg CD 150 on the top of the engine. She
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 2, 2013
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        My Teenie Two is running a 1600 with an 009 distributor, 8 to 1 compression, hand primer instead of a choke, Stromberg CD 150 on the top of the engine.  She starts on the second or third flip of the prop.  And I mean flip, with one hand.  I’m running a deep oil sump, which gives me a 4 quart capacity, and no cooler.  I do have a cooling loop wrapped around the intake at the “T” where the stock VW intake would have had the heat riser.  I don’t have exhaust heated carb heat, but I do duct warm air from the left hand side head cooling scoop into the intake at all times.  The Stromberg seems to prefer a bit of warmth all the time.

         

        For 12v power, I’m running a 32 amp Harley alternator on the back of the engine (AKA Bob Hoover’s design) and have a small 12V batter on the inside of the firewall for starting her up.  Once she’s running, I turn on the alternator.

         

        No need to retard the 009 for starting.  Set the timing at 4 degrees BTDC and you’ll see 28 degrees of total advance.  I have no kickback problems.

         

        My starting sequence is, tie off the tail, open the fuel valve, make sure throttle is closed, pump the primer twice, turn on the ignition, flip the prop until it starts.  Usually she starts on the second flip.  The first flip pulls the prime fuel into the cylinders, as the primer nozzles are right at the intake valves.  The second flip she usually starts.  Since I don’t have a choke, I nurse her along with a slow pump on the primer.  After maybe 30 seconds or so, I can turn the primer off.  Once she’s warm, she will start on the first flip, with the throttle closed.

         

        Hot ignition, yes that’s a good idea.  I’m running stock points, but am upgrading to the Compufire module that replaces the points, as I prefer an electronically switched ignition.  I’d like to upgrade to the real Compufire electronic ignition, when finances permit.

         

         

         

        From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ramjetwiebe
        Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 4:23 PM
        To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AirVW] Hand start

         

         

        I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.

        I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the group. I'll post them later.

        So the question should be:

        What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?

        Here is what I have concocted so far:

        Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
        HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something like the Compufire going to be better?
        Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
        Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?

        As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the oil cooler as needed.

        If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers might be adequate to prevent carb ice.

        In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition. A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other problems that can only be solved with a parachute.

      • Ronald Dixon
        Why not go with what has worked very well for at least 50 years. No sense reinventing the Horse.
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 3, 2013
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          Why not go with what has worked very well for at least 50 years. No sense reinventing the Horse.




          --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "ramjetwiebe" <prwiebe@...> wrote:
          >
          > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
          >
          > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the group. I'll post them later.
          >
          > So the question should be:
          >
          > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
          >
          > Here is what I have concocted so far:
          >
          > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
          > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something like the Compufire going to be better?
          > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
          > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
          >
          > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the oil cooler as needed.
          >
          > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
          >
          > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition. A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
          >
        • ramjetwiebe
          Thanks for the comments! You have given me the confidence to go down the road I was planning. All I have to do now is pick a cam. Where do you fly? The Zenith
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 4, 2013
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            Thanks for the comments! You have given me the confidence to go down the road I was planning. All I have to do now is pick a cam.

            Where do you fly? The Zenith Stromburg is not common in NA but I am actually thinking of using one. I have seen them as NOS from a variety of sources in the UK. A good carb if you remember to check the oil. ;-)

            When I said hot ignition I was actually thinking of a 12V points/coil - with the wider gap in the spark plugs over magneto.

            I've had a fair number of "computer" ignition systems fail on me over the years. If I was to only have one ignition system, I would want points. The failure junction in that system is usually the coil (or the wiring if you're careless.) I can see no advantage to going breakerless as point bounce is not causing misfires on the dragstrip. No high RPM runs as long as the prop stays on.

            Points tend to degrade and not fail. I've had breakerless ignitions fail without warning on outboards but never points. The problem with replacing points on marine outboard engines is that you have to pull the flywheel so it doesn't get done very often. Usually the owner just complains that his engine is hard to start.

            Mr Corvair (William Wynne) shows a two-set-of-points distributor in his engine manual. The ignitions are not completely independent as there is only one distributor and one set of plugs. But you would have two coils. In my life I have only replaced one coil and that was my fault. (Boosting a 6V vehicle with a 12V source. Lots of coils used to get fried when people rewired and didn't use the resistance wire on a 12V system with their 6V coil.) Of course, heat is the number one enemy of ignition coils. Hello Boys and Girls! Today we are going to talk about blast tubes. Can you say "cold air?" :-D

            IMO, I am not convinced that a computer ignition relying on either a vacuum or mechanical advance distributor is going to give me ANY more power. It's only going to add complexity. Then again, maybe I have not been talking to the right people.

            Speaking of distrbutors. You mention that you get full advance from your distributor. Has anybody seen published curves for the 009 distributor? I can't seem to find one. Not that long ago, almost every shop had the ability to recurve my ignition. I think I would have to look hard to find somebody who knew how to do it, had the equipment AND could recommend a curve for my application.

            Take care!
            Robert






            --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Graham" <tom.graham2@...> wrote:
            >
            > My Teenie Two is running a 1600 with an 009 distributor, 8 to 1 compression,
            > hand primer instead of a choke, Stromberg CD 150 on the top of the engine.
            > She starts on the second or third flip of the prop. And I mean flip, with
            > one hand. I'm running a deep oil sump, which gives me a 4 quart capacity,
            > and no cooler. I do have a cooling loop wrapped around the intake at the
            > "T" where the stock VW intake would have had the heat riser. I don't have
            > exhaust heated carb heat, but I do duct warm air from the left hand side
            > head cooling scoop into the intake at all times. The Stromberg seems to
            > prefer a bit of warmth all the time.
            >
            >
            >
            > For 12v power, I'm running a 32 amp Harley alternator on the back of the
            > engine (AKA Bob Hoover's design) and have a small 12V batter on the inside
            > of the firewall for starting her up. Once she's running, I turn on the
            > alternator.
            >
            >
            >
            > No need to retard the 009 for starting. Set the timing at 4 degrees BTDC
            > and you'll see 28 degrees of total advance. I have no kickback problems.
            >
            >
            >
            > My starting sequence is, tie off the tail, open the fuel valve, make sure
            > throttle is closed, pump the primer twice, turn on the ignition, flip the
            > prop until it starts. Usually she starts on the second flip. The first
            > flip pulls the prime fuel into the cylinders, as the primer nozzles are
            > right at the intake valves. The second flip she usually starts. Since I
            > don't have a choke, I nurse her along with a slow pump on the primer. After
            > maybe 30 seconds or so, I can turn the primer off. Once she's warm, she
            > will start on the first flip, with the throttle closed.
            >
            >
            >
            > Hot ignition, yes that's a good idea. I'm running stock points, but am
            > upgrading to the Compufire module that replaces the points, as I prefer an
            > electronically switched ignition. I'd like to upgrade to the real Compufire
            > electronic ignition, when finances permit.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            > ramjetwiebe
            > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 4:23 PM
            > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [AirVW] Hand start
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
            >
            > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the
            > group. I'll post them later.
            >
            > So the question should be:
            >
            > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
            >
            > Here is what I have concocted so far:
            >
            > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
            > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something
            > like the Compufire going to be better?
            > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add
            > mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
            > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am
            > going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
            >
            > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to
            > cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat
            > could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the
            > oil cooler as needed.
            >
            > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers
            > might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
            >
            > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition.
            > A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the
            > ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having
            > 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of
            > oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me
            > thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit
            > nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an
            > ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought
            > about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such
            > an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other
            > problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
            >
          • Tom Graham
            Robert, I m running a cam I bought from GPAS. I believe it s a SCAT C25. I d verify that with Steve Bennett though. It seems to pull well at the RPM range
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 4, 2013
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              Robert,

               

              I’m running a cam I bought from GPAS.  I believe it’s a SCAT C25.  I’d verify that with Steve Bennett though.  It seems to pull well at the RPM range we fly at.

               

              I’m in Western Washington and flying out of Chehalis (KCLS).  177 feet MSL, so I start out real low in the atmosphere.  I agree about checking the oil in the carb!!  I replaced the seal at the bottom that leaks, but they still seem to sip a tiny bit of oil from time to time.  I have a small bottle of oil in my flight bag for that reason.  I’ve spent a few hours behind a Limbach 2000 with a single CD, which was the inspiration for my setup.

               

              I’ve not found an advance curve for the 009.  I did mark the prop hub at 0 degrees and 28 degrees and can see it hit 28 degrees when I rev the motor up.  It’s tricky though as I’m standing behind the prop with the aircraft tied to my truck in several places and the thing is doing its best to blow me off my feet.  I’m not clear what RPM I hit full advance at as I’m holding the timing light, the carb lever and the tech is in the cockpit.  I’ve attempted it once to confirm I was getting the advance I hoped for.

               

              There is a builder in our Teenie Two group who modified an 009 distributor to house two sets of points, firing two coils for a Mr. Corvair type ignition.  I haven’t heard how it’s working out for him, but I believe he’s still in the building phase.  I’ve thought about looking into the idea, as I like the kinda redundancy a split coil setup would offer.  Maybe this winter when flying days get fewer and farther between.

               

              Here’s a video I made to share with the Teenie Two group that shows how I set things up.

               

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISe23zDDtVg

               

              Tom

              From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ramjetwiebe
              Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 6:46 PM
              To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [AirVW] Re: Hand start

               

               

              Thanks for the comments! You have given me the confidence to go down the road I was planning. All I have to do now is pick a cam.

              Where do you fly? The Zenith Stromburg is not common in NA but I am actually thinking of using one. I have seen them as NOS from a variety of sources in the UK. A good carb if you remember to check the oil. ;-)

              When I said hot ignition I was actually thinking of a 12V points/coil - with the wider gap in the spark plugs over magneto.

              I've had a fair number of "computer" ignition systems fail on me over the years. If I was to only have one ignition system, I would want points. The failure junction in that system is usually the coil (or the wiring if you're careless.) I can see no advantage to going breakerless as point bounce is not causing misfires on the dragstrip. No high RPM runs as long as the prop stays on.

              Points tend to degrade and not fail. I've had breakerless ignitions fail without warning on outboards but never points. The problem with replacing points on marine outboard engines is that you have to pull the flywheel so it doesn't get done very often. Usually the owner just complains that his engine is hard to start.

              Mr Corvair (William Wynne) shows a two-set-of-points distributor in his engine manual. The ignitions are not completely independent as there is only one distributor and one set of plugs. But you would have two coils. In my life I have only replaced one coil and that was my fault. (Boosting a 6V vehicle with a 12V source. Lots of coils used to get fried when people rewired and didn't use the resistance wire on a 12V system with their 6V coil.) Of course, heat is the number one enemy of ignition coils. Hello Boys and Girls! Today we are going to talk about blast tubes. Can you say "cold air?" :-D

              IMO, I am not convinced that a computer ignition relying on either a vacuum or mechanical advance distributor is going to give me ANY more power. It's only going to add complexity. Then again, maybe I have not been talking to the right people.

              Speaking of distrbutors. You mention that you get full advance from your distributor. Has anybody seen published curves for the 009 distributor? I can't seem to find one. Not that long ago, almost every shop had the ability to recurve my ignition. I think I would have to look hard to find somebody who knew how to do it, had the equipment AND could recommend a curve for my application.

              Take care!
              Robert

              --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Graham" <tom.graham2@...> wrote:
              >
              > My Teenie Two is running a 1600 with an 009 distributor, 8 to 1 compression,
              > hand primer instead of a choke, Stromberg CD 150 on the top of the engine.
              > She starts on the second or third flip of the prop. And I mean flip, with
              > one hand. I'm running a deep oil sump, which gives me a 4 quart capacity,
              > and no cooler. I do have a cooling loop wrapped around the intake at the
              > "T" where the stock VW intake would have had the heat riser. I don't have
              > exhaust heated carb heat, but I do duct warm air from the left hand side
              > head cooling scoop into the intake at all times. The Stromberg seems to
              > prefer a bit of warmth all the time.
              >
              >
              >
              > For 12v power, I'm running a 32 amp Harley alternator on the back of the
              > engine (AKA Bob Hoover's design) and have a small 12V batter on the inside
              > of the firewall for starting her up. Once she's running, I turn on the
              > alternator.
              >
              >
              >
              > No need to retard the 009 for starting. Set the timing at 4 degrees BTDC
              > and you'll see 28 degrees of total advance. I have no kickback problems.
              >
              >
              >
              > My starting sequence is, tie off the tail, open the fuel valve, make sure
              > throttle is closed, pump the primer twice, turn on the ignition, flip the
              > prop until it starts. Usually she starts on the second flip. The first
              > flip pulls the prime fuel into the cylinders, as the primer nozzles are
              > right at the intake valves. The second flip she usually starts. Since I
              > don't have a choke, I nurse her along with a slow pump on the primer. After
              > maybe 30 seconds or so, I can turn the primer off. Once she's warm, she
              > will start on the first flip, with the throttle closed.
              >
              >
              >
              > Hot ignition, yes that's a good idea. I'm running stock points, but am
              > upgrading to the Compufire module that replaces the points, as I prefer an
              > electronically switched ignition. I'd like to upgrade to the real Compufire
              > electronic ignition, when finances permit.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > ramjetwiebe
              > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 4:23 PM
              > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [AirVW] Hand start
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
              >
              > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the
              > group. I'll post them later.
              >
              > So the question should be:
              >
              > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
              >
              > Here is what I have concocted so far:
              >
              > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
              > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something
              > like the Compufire going to be better?
              > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add
              > mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
              > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am
              > going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
              >
              > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to
              > cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat
              > could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the
              > oil cooler as needed.
              >
              > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers
              > might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
              >
              > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition.
              > A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the
              > ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having
              > 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of
              > oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me
              > thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit
              > nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an
              > ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought
              > about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such
              > an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other
              > problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
              >

            • Bruce
              Been hand propping both my GPAS 1835s since 2002. Last count still have all body parts after God knows how may starts. Both planes have single CompUFires on
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 5, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Been hand propping both my GPAS 1835s since 2002. Last count still have all body parts after God knows how may starts.

                Both planes have single CompUFires on 009 distributors, static timed to 4 degrees BTDC. Never had one kickback. Note: The CompuFire has never has fired on the first blade, and almost allway fires on the second blade, so no surprises. Both planes have GPAS 1821 Carbs (Model A) mounted under the engine, so no fuel can ever drip on the engine. Neither have a primer, it would help, but wanted to keep the plumbing simple. Needs an elaborate no-primer priming procedure but it works reliably with my engine setup, but maybe not so much for other configurations. Will share it for the 009, Model A Carb-No-Primer crowd if you like.

                Thank, Bruce
                BK Fliers LLC


                --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Dixon" <rhdixon1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Why not go with what has worked very well for at least 50 years. No sense reinventing the Horse.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "ramjetwiebe" <prwiebe@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
                > >
                > > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the group. I'll post them later.
                > >
                > > So the question should be:
                > >
                > > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
                > >
                > > Here is what I have concocted so far:
                > >
                > > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
                > > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something like the Compufire going to be better?
                > > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
                > > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
                > >
                > > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the oil cooler as needed.
                > >
                > > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
                > >
                > > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition. A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
                > >
                >
              • tom.graham2
                Bruce, Which single Compufire are you using?  The points replacement module that uses the stock cap and rotor and coil, or the dual coil Compufire setup that
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 5, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Bruce,

                  Which single Compufire are you using?  The points replacement module that uses the stock cap and rotor and coil, or the dual coil Compufire setup that uses the 009 distributor base and eliminates the cap and rotor?

                  Thanks for the clarification.

                  Tom



                  -------- Original message --------
                  From: Bruce <dbk4939@...>
                  Date: 06/05/2013 3:27 PM (GMT-08:00)
                  To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [AirVW] Re: Hand start


                   

                  Been hand propping both my GPAS 1835s since 2002. Last count still have all body parts after God knows how may starts.

                  Both planes have single CompUFires on 009 distributors, static timed to 4 degrees BTDC. Never had one kickback. Note: The CompuFire has never has fired on the first blade, and almost allway fires on the second blade, so no surprises. Both planes have GPAS 1821 Carbs (Model A) mounted under the engine, so no fuel can ever drip on the engine. Neither have a primer, it would help, but wanted to keep the plumbing simple. Needs an elaborate no-primer priming procedure but it works reliably with my engine setup, but maybe not so much for other configurations. Will share it for the 009, Model A Carb-No-Primer crowd if you like.

                  Thank, Bruce
                  BK Fliers LLC

                  --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Dixon" <rhdixon1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Why not go with what has worked very well for at least 50 years. No sense reinventing the Horse.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "ramjetwiebe" <prwiebe@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
                  > >
                  > > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the group. I'll post them later.
                  > >
                  > > So the question should be:
                  > >
                  > > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
                  > >
                  > > Here is what I have concocted so far:
                  > >
                  > > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
                  > > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something like the Compufire going to be better?
                  > > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
                  > > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
                  > >
                  > > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the oil cooler as needed.
                  > >
                  > > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
                  > >
                  > > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition. A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
                  > >
                  >

                • Bruce
                  Using the CompUFire DIS-IX Distributorless Ignition System with the dual coil pack and 009 distributor cap crank position sensor. It is easy to set up and so
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 6, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Using the CompUFire DIS-IX Distributorless Ignition System with the dual coil pack and 009 distributor cap crank position sensor. It is easy to set up and so far all three have worked great
                    .
                    Go to http://www.compufire.com and click on Volkswagen to see it.

                    Have made the flight from Texas to Oshkosh and Lakeland several times with the single CompUFire. Only ignition problem, a new plug went bad on the way to Sun-N-Fun 2006. Despite being a bit rough running, had plenty of power to fly the 12 miles to the nearest strip.

                    Replaced the plug and continued the trip with no more problems except that "automatic rough" feeling every time we crossed a big swamp. The secondary ignition will make any future problems of this type history.

                    Use a redundant electrical system with two 12V UPS sealed lead acid batterys, GPAS 30 amp generato to power it. Tested for 30 minutes with the generator and one battery off and it was still running strong.

                    On the new BK1.3 the primary battery is much larger for the electric start, but we still have the secondary battery for a redundant power source. The new plane also has the GPAS Oil Pump Secondary Ignition with the second spark plugs for even more insurance.

                    Plan on flying the new dual ignition, tricycle gear, and plans available BK1.3 to Oshkosh next month. Hope to see you there in the homebuilt area.

                    Thanks, Bruce
                    BK Fliers LLC



                    --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "tom.graham2" <tom.graham2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Bruce,
                    >
                    > Which single Compufire are you using?  The points replacement module that uses the stock cap and rotor and coil, or the dual coil Compufire setup that uses the 009 distributor base and eliminates the cap and rotor?
                    >
                    > Thanks for the clarification.
                    >
                    > Tom
                    >
                    > -------- Original message --------
                    > From: Bruce <dbk4939@...>
                    > Date: 06/05/2013 3:27 PM (GMT-08:00)
                    > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [AirVW] Re: Hand start
                    >
                    > Been hand propping both my GPAS 1835s since 2002. Last count still have all body parts after God knows how may starts.
                    >
                    > Both planes have single CompUFires on 009 distributors, static timed to 4 degrees BTDC. Never had one kickback. Note: The CompuFire has never has fired on the first blade, and almost allway fires on the second blade, so no surprises. Both planes have GPAS 1821 Carbs (Model A) mounted under the engine, so no fuel can ever drip on the engine. Neither have a primer, it would help, but wanted to keep the plumbing simple. Needs an elaborate no-primer priming procedure but it works reliably with my engine setup, but maybe not so much for other configurations. Will share it for the 009, Model A Carb-No-Primer crowd if you like.
                    >
                    > Thank, Bruce
                    > BK Fliers LLC
                    >
                    > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Dixon" <rhdixon1@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Why not go with what has worked very well for at least 50 years. No sense reinventing the Horse.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "ramjetwiebe" <prwiebe@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
                    > > >
                    > > > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the group. I'll post them later.
                    > > >
                    > > > So the question should be:
                    > > >
                    > > > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
                    > > >
                    > > > Here is what I have concocted so far:
                    > > >
                    > > > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
                    > > > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something like the Compufire going to be better?
                    > > > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
                    > > > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
                    > > >
                    > > > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the oil cooler as needed.
                    > > >
                    > > > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
                    > > >
                    > > > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition. A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • ramjetwiebe
                    You re a busy man. One alternator or two? How did you isolate the secondary battery? Did you go with a remote oil cooler or did you top mount a dog-house
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 8, 2013
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                      You're a busy man.

                      One alternator or two?

                      How did you isolate the secondary battery?

                      Did you go with a remote oil cooler or did you top mount a dog-house cooler as per GPAS engines?

                      I've decided on just the 009 dist for now and am going to try the Accufire ignition module (points replacement). I think. I always thought I would go with a Slick magneto and the 009 for dual ignition. The Avenger is supposed to be "quick and easy" so I might just save that idea for VW round 3 - Flitzer Z21a. (In order of anticipated completion, not project start date. haha)

                      I picked up a couple Zenith Stromberg carbs (175) for not much money. I didn't want to fabricate a top mount intake from scratch but that just might be the easy way to go.

                      For carb heat, there are a couple of boxes on the market that look like they might fit. (The Wagabond style, for example.) Although, for the money, it might be a lot easier to just bend and rivet up something out of aluminium. Heat muffs and exhaust are something else again. I really don't care how cheap and easy it's supposed to be, carb heat is a must have for me.

                      --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" <dbk4939@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Using the CompUFire DIS-IX Distributorless Ignition System with the dual coil pack and 009 distributor cap crank position sensor. It is easy to set up and so far all three have worked great
                      > .
                      > Go to http://www.compufire.com and click on Volkswagen to see it.
                      >
                      > Have made the flight from Texas to Oshkosh and Lakeland several times with the single CompUFire. Only ignition problem, a new plug went bad on the way to Sun-N-Fun 2006. Despite being a bit rough running, had plenty of power to fly the 12 miles to the nearest strip.
                      >
                      > Replaced the plug and continued the trip with no more problems except that "automatic rough" feeling every time we crossed a big swamp. The secondary ignition will make any future problems of this type history.
                      >
                      > Use a redundant electrical system with two 12V UPS sealed lead acid batterys, GPAS 30 amp generato to power it. Tested for 30 minutes with the generator and one battery off and it was still running strong.
                      >
                      > On the new BK1.3 the primary battery is much larger for the electric start, but we still have the secondary battery for a redundant power source. The new plane also has the GPAS Oil Pump Secondary Ignition with the second spark plugs for even more insurance.
                      >
                      > Plan on flying the new dual ignition, tricycle gear, and plans available BK1.3 to Oshkosh next month. Hope to see you there in the homebuilt area.
                      >
                      > Thanks, Bruce
                      > BK Fliers LLC
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "tom.graham2" <tom.graham2@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Bruce,
                      > >
                      > > Which single Compufire are you using?  The points replacement module that uses the stock cap and rotor and coil, or the dual coil Compufire setup that uses the 009 distributor base and eliminates the cap and rotor?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for the clarification.
                      > >
                      > > Tom
                      > >
                      > > -------- Original message --------
                      > > From: Bruce <dbk4939@>
                      > > Date: 06/05/2013 3:27 PM (GMT-08:00)
                      > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: [AirVW] Re: Hand start
                      > >
                      > > Been hand propping both my GPAS 1835s since 2002. Last count still have all body parts after God knows how may starts.
                      > >
                      > > Both planes have single CompUFires on 009 distributors, static timed to 4 degrees BTDC. Never had one kickback. Note: The CompuFire has never has fired on the first blade, and almost allway fires on the second blade, so no surprises. Both planes have GPAS 1821 Carbs (Model A) mounted under the engine, so no fuel can ever drip on the engine. Neither have a primer, it would help, but wanted to keep the plumbing simple. Needs an elaborate no-primer priming procedure but it works reliably with my engine setup, but maybe not so much for other configurations. Will share it for the 009, Model A Carb-No-Primer crowd if you like.
                      > >
                      > > Thank, Bruce
                      > > BK Fliers LLC
                      > >
                      > > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Dixon" <rhdixon1@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Why not go with what has worked very well for at least 50 years. No sense reinventing the Horse.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "ramjetwiebe" <prwiebe@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the group. I'll post them later.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > So the question should be:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Here is what I have concocted so far:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
                      > > > > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something like the Compufire going to be better?
                      > > > > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
                      > > > > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the oil cooler as needed.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition. A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • ramjetwiebe
                      The only time I have behind a VW were ones of only flying above nice flat fields. At that time, my engine building was by trial and error with a
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 8, 2013
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                        The only time I have behind a VW were ones of only flying above nice flat fields. At that time, my engine "building" was by trial and error with a corresponding lack of dollars.

                        It seems that we are not so far apart - geographically. I am just up a ways in Vancouver, Canada. I came out here from the prairies so I could learn of the need to use carb heat.

                        My flying has been limited lately by what I can rent. I was pretty convinced I wasn't going to own again, but if I build it maybe that doesn't count.

                        There's an old adage sung by accountants, "If it flies, floats or something else that starts with 'f' that I don't recall, RENT IT!" Building doesn't count, I say. No "F."

                        I talked to a decent local bug shop. I have a couple of good cam choices it seems. You probably do have the C25, but apparently it's designed for smaller engines - 1600-1700cc say. The C35 or the Engle W110 was what they suggested for the 1900cc I am building. I'm going to spend a couple more days asking around before I start bolting case halves together. Both those cams have a lot of lift and duration so I am worried about trying to get an 800 RPM idle - starting woes. (0.419 for 285 and 0.430 for 284 respectfully. The SCAT C25 is 0.365 for 272 which would give me a real sweet idle, I think.)

                        I'll put together an order of all the parts I think I will want from GPAS and then talk to Steve about cams. I should get on with that...

                        From a clone part maker, I found out that the 009 is supposed to go to full advance at around 2750 RPM. There are a couple other distributors that I can curve myself (come with a variety of spring sets) but I think I would not be able to make any improvements over anything out of the box. I talked to a couple of racers and they fix their ignition (no curve). They seemed to think that an aeroplane engine would be the same as a tractor - retard the ignition for starting and then go full advance. I am not sure if that was an insult.



                        --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Graham" <tom.graham2@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Robert,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I'm running a cam I bought from GPAS. I believe it's a SCAT C25. I'd
                        > verify that with Steve Bennett though. It seems to pull well at the RPM
                        > range we fly at.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I'm in Western Washington and flying out of Chehalis (KCLS). 177 feet MSL,
                        > so I start out real low in the atmosphere. I agree about checking the oil
                        > in the carb!! I replaced the seal at the bottom that leaks, but they still
                        > seem to sip a tiny bit of oil from time to time. I have a small bottle of
                        > oil in my flight bag for that reason. I've spent a few hours behind a
                        > Limbach 2000 with a single CD, which was the inspiration for my setup.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I've not found an advance curve for the 009. I did mark the prop hub at 0
                        > degrees and 28 degrees and can see it hit 28 degrees when I rev the motor
                        > up. It's tricky though as I'm standing behind the prop with the aircraft
                        > tied to my truck in several places and the thing is doing its best to blow
                        > me off my feet. I'm not clear what RPM I hit full advance at as I'm holding
                        > the timing light, the carb lever and the tech is in the cockpit. I've
                        > attempted it once to confirm I was getting the advance I hoped for.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > There is a builder in our Teenie Two group who modified an 009 distributor
                        > to house two sets of points, firing two coils for a Mr. Corvair type
                        > ignition. I haven't heard how it's working out for him, but I believe he's
                        > still in the building phase. I've thought about looking into the idea, as I
                        > like the kinda redundancy a split coil setup would offer. Maybe this winter
                        > when flying days get fewer and farther between.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Here's a video I made to share with the Teenie Two group that shows how I
                        > set things up.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISe23zDDtVg
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Tom
                        >
                        > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        > ramjetwiebe
                        > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 6:46 PM
                        > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [AirVW] Re: Hand start
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks for the comments! You have given me the confidence to go down the
                        > road I was planning. All I have to do now is pick a cam.
                        >
                        > Where do you fly? The Zenith Stromburg is not common in NA but I am actually
                        > thinking of using one. I have seen them as NOS from a variety of sources in
                        > the UK. A good carb if you remember to check the oil. ;-)
                        >
                        > When I said hot ignition I was actually thinking of a 12V points/coil - with
                        > the wider gap in the spark plugs over magneto.
                        >
                        > I've had a fair number of "computer" ignition systems fail on me over the
                        > years. If I was to only have one ignition system, I would want points. The
                        > failure junction in that system is usually the coil (or the wiring if you're
                        > careless.) I can see no advantage to going breakerless as point bounce is
                        > not causing misfires on the dragstrip. No high RPM runs as long as the prop
                        > stays on.
                        >
                        > Points tend to degrade and not fail. I've had breakerless ignitions fail
                        > without warning on outboards but never points. The problem with replacing
                        > points on marine outboard engines is that you have to pull the flywheel so
                        > it doesn't get done very often. Usually the owner just complains that his
                        > engine is hard to start.
                        >
                        > Mr Corvair (William Wynne) shows a two-set-of-points distributor in his
                        > engine manual. The ignitions are not completely independent as there is only
                        > one distributor and one set of plugs. But you would have two coils. In my
                        > life I have only replaced one coil and that was my fault. (Boosting a 6V
                        > vehicle with a 12V source. Lots of coils used to get fried when people
                        > rewired and didn't use the resistance wire on a 12V system with their 6V
                        > coil.) Of course, heat is the number one enemy of ignition coils. Hello Boys
                        > and Girls! Today we are going to talk about blast tubes. Can you say "cold
                        > air?" :-D
                        >
                        > IMO, I am not convinced that a computer ignition relying on either a vacuum
                        > or mechanical advance distributor is going to give me ANY more power. It's
                        > only going to add complexity. Then again, maybe I have not been talking to
                        > the right people.
                        >
                        > Speaking of distrbutors. You mention that you get full advance from your
                        > distributor. Has anybody seen published curves for the 009 distributor? I
                        > can't seem to find one. Not that long ago, almost every shop had the ability
                        > to recurve my ignition. I think I would have to look hard to find somebody
                        > who knew how to do it, had the equipment AND could recommend a curve for my
                        > application.
                        >
                        > Take care!
                        > Robert
                        >
                        > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Graham"
                        > <tom.graham2@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > My Teenie Two is running a 1600 with an 009 distributor, 8 to 1
                        > compression,
                        > > hand primer instead of a choke, Stromberg CD 150 on the top of the engine.
                        > > She starts on the second or third flip of the prop. And I mean flip, with
                        > > one hand. I'm running a deep oil sump, which gives me a 4 quart capacity,
                        > > and no cooler. I do have a cooling loop wrapped around the intake at the
                        > > "T" where the stock VW intake would have had the heat riser. I don't have
                        > > exhaust heated carb heat, but I do duct warm air from the left hand side
                        > > head cooling scoop into the intake at all times. The Stromberg seems to
                        > > prefer a bit of warmth all the time.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > For 12v power, I'm running a 32 amp Harley alternator on the back of the
                        > > engine (AKA Bob Hoover's design) and have a small 12V batter on the inside
                        > > of the firewall for starting her up. Once she's running, I turn on the
                        > > alternator.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > No need to retard the 009 for starting. Set the timing at 4 degrees BTDC
                        > > and you'll see 28 degrees of total advance. I have no kickback problems.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > My starting sequence is, tie off the tail, open the fuel valve, make sure
                        > > throttle is closed, pump the primer twice, turn on the ignition, flip the
                        > > prop until it starts. Usually she starts on the second flip. The first
                        > > flip pulls the prime fuel into the cylinders, as the primer nozzles are
                        > > right at the intake valves. The second flip she usually starts. Since I
                        > > don't have a choke, I nurse her along with a slow pump on the primer.
                        > After
                        > > maybe 30 seconds or so, I can turn the primer off. Once she's warm, she
                        > > will start on the first flip, with the throttle closed.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hot ignition, yes that's a good idea. I'm running stock points, but am
                        > > upgrading to the Compufire module that replaces the points, as I prefer an
                        > > electronically switched ignition. I'd like to upgrade to the real
                        > Compufire
                        > > electronic ignition, when finances permit.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                        > Of
                        > > ramjetwiebe
                        > > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 4:23 PM
                        > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Subject: [AirVW] Hand start
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
                        > >
                        > > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than
                        > the
                        > > group. I'll post them later.
                        > >
                        > > So the question should be:
                        > >
                        > > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
                        > >
                        > > Here is what I have concocted so far:
                        > >
                        > > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
                        > > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is
                        > something
                        > > like the Compufire going to be better?
                        > > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add
                        > > mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
                        > > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am
                        > > going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
                        > >
                        > > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to
                        > > cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat
                        > > could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from
                        > the
                        > > oil cooler as needed.
                        > >
                        > > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat
                        > risers
                        > > might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
                        > >
                        > > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009
                        > ignition.
                        > > A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the
                        > > ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having
                        > > 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of
                        > > oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me
                        > > thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit
                        > > nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have
                        > an
                        > > ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I
                        > thought
                        > > about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such
                        > > an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other
                        > > problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
                        > >
                        >
                      • Tom Graham
                        Now that s an interesting point of view! I felt as if my chin were ready to drag on the runway! This must be the night to post Teenie videos. I m working on
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 8, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Now that’s an interesting point of view!  I felt as if my chin were ready to drag on the runway!

                           

                          This must be the night to post Teenie videos.  I’m working on one to post as well.

                           

                          From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ramjetwiebe
                          Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 3:27 PM
                          To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [AirVW] Re: Hand start

                           

                           

                          The only time I have behind a VW were ones of only flying above nice flat fields. At that time, my engine "building" was by trial and error with a corresponding lack of dollars.

                          It seems that we are not so far apart - geographically. I am just up a ways in Vancouver, Canada. I came out here from the prairies so I could learn of the need to use carb heat.

                          My flying has been limited lately by what I can rent. I was pretty convinced I wasn't going to own again, but if I build it maybe that doesn't count.

                          There's an old adage sung by accountants, "If it flies, floats or something else that starts with 'f' that I don't recall, RENT IT!" Building doesn't count, I say. No "F."

                          I talked to a decent local bug shop. I have a couple of good cam choices it seems. You probably do have the C25, but apparently it's designed for smaller engines - 1600-1700cc say. The C35 or the Engle W110 was what they suggested for the 1900cc I am building. I'm going to spend a couple more days asking around before I start bolting case halves together. Both those cams have a lot of lift and duration so I am worried about trying to get an 800 RPM idle - starting woes. (0.419 for 285 and 0.430 for 284 respectfully. The SCAT C25 is 0.365 for 272 which would give me a real sweet idle, I think.)

                          I'll put together an order of all the parts I think I will want from GPAS and then talk to Steve about cams. I should get on with that...

                          From a clone part maker, I found out that the 009 is supposed to go to full advance at around 2750 RPM. There are a couple other distributors that I can curve myself (come with a variety of spring sets) but I think I would not be able to make any improvements over anything out of the box. I talked to a couple of racers and they fix their ignition (no curve). They seemed to think that an aeroplane engine would be the same as a tractor - retard the ignition for starting and then go full advance. I am not sure if that was an insult.

                          --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Graham" <tom.graham2@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Robert,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm running a cam I bought from GPAS. I believe it's a SCAT C25. I'd
                          > verify that with Steve Bennett though. It seems to pull well at the RPM
                          > range we fly at.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm in Western Washington and flying out of Chehalis (KCLS). 177 feet MSL,
                          > so I start out real low in the atmosphere. I agree about checking the oil
                          > in the carb!! I replaced the seal at the bottom that leaks, but they still
                          > seem to sip a tiny bit of oil from time to time. I have a small bottle of
                          > oil in my flight bag for that reason. I've spent a few hours behind a
                          > Limbach 2000 with a single CD, which was the inspiration for my setup.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I've not found an advance curve for the 009. I did mark the prop hub at 0
                          > degrees and 28 degrees and can see it hit 28 degrees when I rev the motor
                          > up. It's tricky though as I'm standing behind the prop with the aircraft
                          > tied to my truck in several places and the thing is doing its best to blow
                          > me off my feet. I'm not clear what RPM I hit full advance at as I'm holding
                          > the timing light, the carb lever and the tech is in the cockpit. I've
                          > attempted it once to confirm I was getting the advance I hoped for.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > There is a builder in our Teenie Two group who modified an 009 distributor
                          > to house two sets of points, firing two coils for a Mr. Corvair type
                          > ignition. I haven't heard how it's working out for him, but I believe he's
                          > still in the building phase. I've thought about looking into the idea, as I
                          > like the kinda redundancy a split coil setup would offer. Maybe this winter
                          > when flying days get fewer and farther between.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Here's a video I made to share with the Teenie Two group that shows how I
                          > set things up.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISe23zDDtVg
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Tom
                          >
                          > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          > ramjetwiebe
                          > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 6:46 PM
                          > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [AirVW] Re: Hand start
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Thanks for the comments! You have given me the confidence to go down the
                          > road I was planning. All I have to do now is pick a cam.
                          >
                          > Where do you fly? The Zenith Stromburg is not common in NA but I am actually
                          > thinking of using one. I have seen them as NOS from a variety of sources in
                          > the UK. A good carb if you remember to check the oil. ;-)
                          >
                          > When I said hot ignition I was actually thinking of a 12V points/coil - with
                          > the wider gap in the spark plugs over magneto.
                          >
                          > I've had a fair number of "computer" ignition systems fail on me over the
                          > years. If I was to only have one ignition system, I would want points. The
                          > failure junction in that system is usually the coil (or the wiring if you're
                          > careless.) I can see no advantage to going breakerless as point bounce is
                          > not causing misfires on the dragstrip. No high RPM runs as long as the prop
                          > stays on.
                          >
                          > Points tend to degrade and not fail. I've had breakerless ignitions fail
                          > without warning on outboards but never points. The problem with replacing
                          > points on marine outboard engines is that you have to pull the flywheel so
                          > it doesn't get done very often. Usually the owner just complains that his
                          > engine is hard to start.
                          >
                          > Mr Corvair (William Wynne) shows a two-set-of-points distributor in his
                          > engine manual. The ignitions are not completely independent as there is only
                          > one distributor and one set of plugs. But you would have two coils. In my
                          > life I have only replaced one coil and that was my fault. (Boosting a 6V
                          > vehicle with a 12V source. Lots of coils used to get fried when people
                          > rewired and didn't use the resistance wire on a 12V system with their 6V
                          > coil.) Of course, heat is the number one enemy of ignition coils. Hello Boys
                          > and Girls! Today we are going to talk about blast tubes. Can you say "cold
                          > air?" :-D
                          >
                          > IMO, I am not convinced that a computer ignition relying on either a vacuum
                          > or mechanical advance distributor is going to give me ANY more power. It's
                          > only going to add complexity. Then again, maybe I have not been talking to
                          > the right people.
                          >
                          > Speaking of distrbutors. You mention that you get full advance from your
                          > distributor. Has anybody seen published curves for the 009 distributor? I
                          > can't seem to find one. Not that long ago, almost every shop had the ability
                          > to recurve my ignition. I think I would have to look hard to find somebody
                          > who knew how to do it, had the equipment AND could recommend a curve for my
                          > application.
                          >
                          > Take care!
                          > Robert
                          >
                          > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Graham"
                          > <tom.graham2@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > My Teenie Two is running a 1600 with an 009 distributor, 8 to 1
                          > compression,
                          > > hand primer instead of a choke, Stromberg CD 150 on the top of the engine.
                          > > She starts on the second or third flip of the prop. And I mean flip, with
                          > > one hand. I'm running a deep oil sump, which gives me a 4 quart capacity,
                          > > and no cooler. I do have a cooling loop wrapped around the intake at the
                          > > "T" where the stock VW intake would have had the heat riser. I don't have
                          > > exhaust heated carb heat, but I do duct warm air from the left hand side
                          > > head cooling scoop into the intake at all times. The Stromberg seems to
                          > > prefer a bit of warmth all the time.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > For 12v power, I'm running a 32 amp Harley alternator on the back of the
                          > > engine (AKA Bob Hoover's design) and have a small 12V batter on the inside
                          > > of the firewall for starting her up. Once she's running, I turn on the
                          > > alternator.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > No need to retard the 009 for starting. Set the timing at 4 degrees BTDC
                          > > and you'll see 28 degrees of total advance. I have no kickback problems.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > My starting sequence is, tie off the tail, open the fuel valve, make sure
                          > > throttle is closed, pump the primer twice, turn on the ignition, flip the
                          > > prop until it starts. Usually she starts on the second flip. The first
                          > > flip pulls the prime fuel into the cylinders, as the primer nozzles are
                          > > right at the intake valves. The second flip she usually starts. Since I
                          > > don't have a choke, I nurse her along with a slow pump on the primer.
                          > After
                          > > maybe 30 seconds or so, I can turn the primer off. Once she's warm, she
                          > > will start on the first flip, with the throttle closed.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hot ignition, yes that's a good idea. I'm running stock points, but am
                          > > upgrading to the Compufire module that replaces the points, as I prefer an
                          > > electronically switched ignition. I'd like to upgrade to the real
                          > Compufire
                          > > electronic ignition, when finances permit.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                          > Of
                          > > ramjetwiebe
                          > > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 4:23 PM
                          > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Subject: [AirVW] Hand start
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
                          > >
                          > > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than
                          > the
                          > > group. I'll post them later.
                          > >
                          > > So the question should be:
                          > >
                          > > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
                          > >
                          > > Here is what I have concocted so far:
                          > >
                          > > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
                          > > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is
                          > something
                          > > like the Compufire going to be better?
                          > > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add
                          > > mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
                          > > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am
                          > > going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
                          > >
                          > > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to
                          > > cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat
                          > > could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from
                          > the
                          > > oil cooler as needed.
                          > >
                          > > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat
                          > risers
                          > > might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
                          > >
                          > > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009
                          > ignition.
                          > > A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the
                          > > ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having
                          > > 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of
                          > > oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me
                          > > thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit
                          > > nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have
                          > an
                          > > ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I
                          > thought
                          > > about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such
                          > > an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other
                          > > problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
                          > >
                          >

                        • Bruce
                          ... BK:One alternator/regulator. It is the same unit used on the Diehl case and X mount. Since the prop is on the clutch end, Great Plains made a hub for the
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 9, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "ramjetwiebe" <prwiebe@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > One alternator or two?
                            >
                            BK:One alternator/regulator. It is the same unit used on the Diehl case and X mount. Since the prop is on the clutch end, Great Plains made a hub for the rotor and a stator mount to put the alternator on the pulley end of the engine.

                            > How did you isolate the secondary battery?

                            BK:Both batteries and the alternator each have their own circuit breaker switches to connect them to the main electrical bus so we can remove a faulty power source from the system as needed. In tests I have turned off the generator and primary battery, and run it for 30 minutes on the secondary alone. This is not much different from what they use on electricity dependent FADEC systems.
                            -----------------

                            >
                            > Did you go with a remote oil cooler or did you top mount a dog-house cooler as per GPAS engines?

                            BK: All three of my planes use a smile scoop to direct ram air under the finned sump, with a low pressure exit below the cowl. Even in the hottest Texas days the oil temperature stays in range with my VW 1835s. In order to accommodate customers that want larger displacement conversions, we engineered a oil cooler installation that fits below the sump. Now that I have established the temperature base line for the new plane oil temp, will mount the cooler to see how effective it is.
                            ---------------------------------
                            >
                            > For carb heat, there are a couple of boxes on the market that look like they might fit. (The Wagabond style, for example.) Although, for the money, it might be a lot easier to just bend and rivet up something out of aluminium. Heat muffs and exhaust are something else again. I really don't care how cheap and easy it's supposed to be, carb heat is a must have for me.
                            >
                            BK:Designed a simple carb heat box after getting great ideas from Tony Bingelis books. You can see it and how it is built in the 70 Engine Installation section of my Photo Builder Manual on www.bkfliers.com.
                            You are right about needing carb heat, ice can really ruin you day.
                            -----------------

                            Thanks, Bruce
                            BK Fliers LLC
                          • f4u4me
                            I m also in Western Washington and will probably fly out of Thun field in Puyallup. I was down in Chehalis/Centrailia area the 8th for my dads birthday. I
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 10, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I'm also in Western Washington and will probably fly out of Thun field in Puyallup. I was down in Chehalis/Centrailia area the 8th for my dads birthday. I asked a local shop here for a cam idea for low rpm torque and he sold me an "H" cam, but this looks like the wrong type for this..488" lift and 286 dur.

                              --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Graham" <tom.graham2@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Robert,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I'm running a cam I bought from GPAS. I believe it's a SCAT C25. I'd
                              > verify that with Steve Bennett though. It seems to pull well at the RPM
                              > range we fly at.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I'm in Western Washington and flying out of Chehalis (KCLS). 177 feet MSL,
                              > so I start out real low in the atmosphere. I agree about checking the oil
                              > in the carb!! I replaced the seal at the bottom that leaks, but they still
                              > seem to sip a tiny bit of oil from time to time. I have a small bottle of
                              > oil in my flight bag for that reason. I've spent a few hours behind a
                              > Limbach 2000 with a single CD, which was the inspiration for my setup.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I've not found an advance curve for the 009. I did mark the prop hub at 0
                              > degrees and 28 degrees and can see it hit 28 degrees when I rev the motor
                              > up. It's tricky though as I'm standing behind the prop with the aircraft
                              > tied to my truck in several places and the thing is doing its best to blow
                              > me off my feet. I'm not clear what RPM I hit full advance at as I'm holding
                              > the timing light, the carb lever and the tech is in the cockpit. I've
                              > attempted it once to confirm I was getting the advance I hoped for.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > There is a builder in our Teenie Two group who modified an 009 distributor
                              > to house two sets of points, firing two coils for a Mr. Corvair type
                              > ignition. I haven't heard how it's working out for him, but I believe he's
                              > still in the building phase. I've thought about looking into the idea, as I
                              > like the kinda redundancy a split coil setup would offer. Maybe this winter
                              > when flying days get fewer and farther between.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Here's a video I made to share with the Teenie Two group that shows how I
                              > set things up.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISe23zDDtVg
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Tom
                              >
                              > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              > ramjetwiebe
                              > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 6:46 PM
                              > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [AirVW] Re: Hand start
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks for the comments! You have given me the confidence to go down the
                              > road I was planning. All I have to do now is pick a cam.
                              >
                              > Where do you fly? The Zenith Stromburg is not common in NA but I am actually
                              > thinking of using one. I have seen them as NOS from a variety of sources in
                              > the UK. A good carb if you remember to check the oil. ;-)
                              >
                              > When I said hot ignition I was actually thinking of a 12V points/coil - with
                              > the wider gap in the spark plugs over magneto.
                              >
                              > I've had a fair number of "computer" ignition systems fail on me over the
                              > years. If I was to only have one ignition system, I would want points. The
                              > failure junction in that system is usually the coil (or the wiring if you're
                              > careless.) I can see no advantage to going breakerless as point bounce is
                              > not causing misfires on the dragstrip. No high RPM runs as long as the prop
                              > stays on.
                              >
                              > Points tend to degrade and not fail. I've had breakerless ignitions fail
                              > without warning on outboards but never points. The problem with replacing
                              > points on marine outboard engines is that you have to pull the flywheel so
                              > it doesn't get done very often. Usually the owner just complains that his
                              > engine is hard to start.
                              >
                              > Mr Corvair (William Wynne) shows a two-set-of-points distributor in his
                              > engine manual. The ignitions are not completely independent as there is only
                              > one distributor and one set of plugs. But you would have two coils. In my
                              > life I have only replaced one coil and that was my fault. (Boosting a 6V
                              > vehicle with a 12V source. Lots of coils used to get fried when people
                              > rewired and didn't use the resistance wire on a 12V system with their 6V
                              > coil.) Of course, heat is the number one enemy of ignition coils. Hello Boys
                              > and Girls! Today we are going to talk about blast tubes. Can you say "cold
                              > air?" :-D
                              >
                              > IMO, I am not convinced that a computer ignition relying on either a vacuum
                              > or mechanical advance distributor is going to give me ANY more power. It's
                              > only going to add complexity. Then again, maybe I have not been talking to
                              > the right people.
                              >
                              > Speaking of distrbutors. You mention that you get full advance from your
                              > distributor. Has anybody seen published curves for the 009 distributor? I
                              > can't seem to find one. Not that long ago, almost every shop had the ability
                              > to recurve my ignition. I think I would have to look hard to find somebody
                              > who knew how to do it, had the equipment AND could recommend a curve for my
                              > application.
                              >
                              > Take care!
                              > Robert
                              >
                              > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Graham"
                              > <tom.graham2@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > My Teenie Two is running a 1600 with an 009 distributor, 8 to 1
                              > compression,
                              > > hand primer instead of a choke, Stromberg CD 150 on the top of the engine.
                              > > She starts on the second or third flip of the prop. And I mean flip, with
                              > > one hand. I'm running a deep oil sump, which gives me a 4 quart capacity,
                              > > and no cooler. I do have a cooling loop wrapped around the intake at the
                              > > "T" where the stock VW intake would have had the heat riser. I don't have
                              > > exhaust heated carb heat, but I do duct warm air from the left hand side
                              > > head cooling scoop into the intake at all times. The Stromberg seems to
                              > > prefer a bit of warmth all the time.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > For 12v power, I'm running a 32 amp Harley alternator on the back of the
                              > > engine (AKA Bob Hoover's design) and have a small 12V batter on the inside
                              > > of the firewall for starting her up. Once she's running, I turn on the
                              > > alternator.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > No need to retard the 009 for starting. Set the timing at 4 degrees BTDC
                              > > and you'll see 28 degrees of total advance. I have no kickback problems.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > My starting sequence is, tie off the tail, open the fuel valve, make sure
                              > > throttle is closed, pump the primer twice, turn on the ignition, flip the
                              > > prop until it starts. Usually she starts on the second flip. The first
                              > > flip pulls the prime fuel into the cylinders, as the primer nozzles are
                              > > right at the intake valves. The second flip she usually starts. Since I
                              > > don't have a choke, I nurse her along with a slow pump on the primer.
                              > After
                              > > maybe 30 seconds or so, I can turn the primer off. Once she's warm, she
                              > > will start on the first flip, with the throttle closed.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hot ignition, yes that's a good idea. I'm running stock points, but am
                              > > upgrading to the Compufire module that replaces the points, as I prefer an
                              > > electronically switched ignition. I'd like to upgrade to the real
                              > Compufire
                              > > electronic ignition, when finances permit.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                              > Of
                              > > ramjetwiebe
                              > > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 4:23 PM
                              > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Subject: [AirVW] Hand start
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
                              > >
                              > > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than
                              > the
                              > > group. I'll post them later.
                              > >
                              > > So the question should be:
                              > >
                              > > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
                              > >
                              > > Here is what I have concocted so far:
                              > >
                              > > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
                              > > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is
                              > something
                              > > like the Compufire going to be better?
                              > > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add
                              > > mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
                              > > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am
                              > > going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
                              > >
                              > > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to
                              > > cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat
                              > > could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from
                              > the
                              > > oil cooler as needed.
                              > >
                              > > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat
                              > risers
                              > > might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
                              > >
                              > > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009
                              > ignition.
                              > > A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the
                              > > ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having
                              > > 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of
                              > > oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me
                              > > thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit
                              > > nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have
                              > an
                              > > ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I
                              > thought
                              > > about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such
                              > > an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other
                              > > problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
                              > >
                              >
                            • edd
                              I use twin belt driven Lucas SR4 magnetos with an impulse coupling on the left. I manually prime the fuel pump before the first start of the day with a simple
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 13, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I use twin belt driven Lucas SR4 magnetos with an impulse coupling on the left. I manually prime the fuel pump before the first start of the day with a simple tool made from a screwdriver.
                                Cheap, reliable, self contained and it starts first swing every time.

                                --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "ramjetwiebe" <prwiebe@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I found the discussion on ignition systems interesting.
                                >
                                > I think some of my earlier replies went direct to the poster rather than the group. I'll post them later.
                                >
                                > So the question should be:
                                >
                                > What is your wish list for a hand prop start VW?
                                >
                                > Here is what I have concocted so far:
                                >
                                > Lower compression. Say 7.5-8:1
                                > HOT ignition: Say Bosch 009 - if you need a 12V source anyway, is something like the Compufire going to be better?
                                > Ability to easily adjust timing of ignition: Bosch 009 again. Maybe add mechanical retard for starting. (The latter only sounds good on paper.)
                                > Ability to prime. I was thinking of an under cowl mounted primer as I am going to be out there anyway. Thoughts?
                                >
                                > As to carb setup. What about dual carbs? My concern is that the run to cylinders is going to be too short for lower RPM operation. The carb heat could be a fairly simple plenum sitting atop the engine taking heat from the oil cooler as needed.
                                >
                                > If you use an "original" style VW intake, I was wondering it the heat risers might be adequate to prevent carb ice.
                                >
                                > In my head (so far) my engine is a mid compression 1900cc with 009 ignition. A firewall mounted 12 - 18AH SLA batt (w/ wind charger) should run the ignition for at least 10hrs should the charger drop off line. (Also having 12V for battery things in the cockpit would be handy.) I want some kind of oil cooler. I would prefer an aluminium case. It's going to be ugly, me thinks, as there is no way I can see to make any kind of updraft carb fit nor keep the ignition under the cowl. I have decided that trying to have an ignition system down by the pedals is only going to bring misery. I thought about the hole in the firewall, but I think the crankcase would cover such an aperture mighty well - unless the motor fell off. Then I have other problems that can only be solved with a parachute.
                                >
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