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RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

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  • Bill Clark
    Duncan, FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 13, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Duncan,
       
      FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360 degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I build regardless of crank type I always ensure that rods/pistons/pins, and flywheel/pressure plate/clutch are static balanced within a gram and then have them and the crank dynamically balanced as well.
       
      Here's an example of the benefits from my personal experience of the counterweighted crank plus proper balance combination;
       
       I have one of these cranks that I bought in 1979 for $100.00 (back when you could still get a new German crank for $99.00). As an example of the abuse it's been a part of, I have run it in 4 crankcases on both the street and track. These engines have gone south for various reasons (none of which resulted in oil starvation) including my two favorite bizarre events of 1) rain water through the intake rusting cylinder walls, and 2) an aftermarket air cleaner lid loosening up and falling behind the squirrel cage on a trip from S.F. to Las Vegas in a 1971 VW Bus and rattling long enough to crack the case from the top of the #1 hole to the top seam of the case. That said, after running the crank for over 150K miles this crankshaft still mics out at the 10/10 'new' spec. If anyone doesn't see that as a testimony to the value of proper balancing, I don't know what else would convince them.
       
      As to cylinder capacity, basically anything over 85.5mm will require cutting the case and heads, although there are 87mm cylinders that will fit the stock bores. If you do overbore, never forget that if you have two choices for a given overbore (i.e. 90.5mm and 92mm use the same size hole) the price of more displacement is less cylinder wall thickness.
       
      If you live in an area that still has a shop that specializes in parts and service for air-cooled VW cars, it would be well worth your while to stop in and bend some ears. There is very little that applies to the street use of these motors that can't be translated and transferred to aero use, as long as you keep in mind that you will likely never exceed 3000 rpm and as aero use is more about torque than horsepower, you will most likely be using single port heads.
       
      It just so happens that I am in the process of building up a motor around the crank I mentioned, so I will try and post a picture before the end of the day.
       
      Regards,
       
      BC


      From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rambart@...
      Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:48 AM
      To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

       



      Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" <edd_wood@...> wrote:

       


      Hi Bart

      Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
      Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
      The current barrels are 1835cc.

      Duncan

      --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Bart Ferguson <rambart@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
      >
      > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
      > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
      > case clearancing that has to be done.
      >
      >
      > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
      > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
      > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
      >
      > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
      > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
      >
      > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
      >
      >
      > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
      >
      >
      > Yes to counter weight
      >
      > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
      >
      > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
      > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
      > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
      > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
      >
      > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
      > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
      > the compression...
      >
      >
      > Bart
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: edd <edd_wood@...>
      > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
      > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
      >

    • Bill Clark
      Keep in mind what we are doing here; WE START with a 1930 s oil cooled design engineered around an 1100cc displacement to produce 25hp at 4200 rpm at sea level
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 13, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Keep in mind what we are doing here;
         
        WE START with a 1930's oil cooled design engineered around an 1100cc displacement to produce 25hp at 4200 rpm at sea level with cooler than standard temperatures
         
        WE THEN double the displacement, reduce the rpm target for max power by almost 30%, completely strip the motor of the factory designed cooling mechanism, and hang a 4-7' disc on the crank nose.
         
        WE EXPECT a 4x + increase in horsepower, a 2x + increase in torque, no increase in operating temperature, and no change in reliability and longevity, a.k.a. 'the impossible'.
         
        Do you really want to do your shopping anywhere that incorporates 'low budget' into their name?


        From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Justin Schoeman
        Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 11:24 AM
        To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

         

        http://www.lowbugget.com/piston_page.html

        On 13/03/2013 20:16, Bart Ferguson wrote:

         

        no you cant. no such thing as 94mm slip ins. Bart



        From: Justin Schoeman <justin.schoeman@...>
        To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

         
        You could also use 94mm slip-ins - hen you only need to machine the heads...

        On 13/03/2013 17:47, rambart@... wrote:
         


        Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" <edd_wood@...> wrote:

         

        Hi Bart

        Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
        Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
        The current barrels are 1835cc.

        Duncan

        --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Bart Ferguson <rambart@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
        >
        > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
        > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
        > case clearancing that has to be done.
        >
        >
        > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
        > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
        > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
        >
        > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
        > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
        >
        > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
        >
        >
        > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
        >
        >
        > Yes to counter weight
        >
        > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
        >
        > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
        > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
        > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
        > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
        >
        > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
        > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
        > the compression...
        >
        >
        > Bart
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: edd <edd_wood@...>
        > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
        > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
        >



      • Bart Ferguson
        Well, ok. You proved me wrong. But I wouldn t use them. If it s worth doing, it s worth doing right. I don t believe their claim that it will not affect
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 13, 2013
        • 0 Attachment

          Well, ok. You proved me wrong. But I wouldn't use them. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I don't believe their claim that it will not affect reliability or longevity. The name of the website says it all: "low bugget". I would call it "low budget". Also, these cylinders and pistons are Mahle but the cylinders are not machined to this spec by Mahle, they are machined by an independent to sell as such. Bart



          From: Justin Schoeman <justin.schoeman@...>
          To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:23 PM
          Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

           
          http://www.lowbugget.com/piston_page.html

          On 13/03/2013 20:16, Bart Ferguson wrote:
           

          no you cant. no such thing as 94mm slip ins. Bart



          From: Justin Schoeman <justin.schoeman@...>
          To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:12 PM
          Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

           
          You could also use 94mm slip-ins - hen you only need to machine the heads...

          On 13/03/2013 17:47, rambart@... wrote:
           


          Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.

          Sent from my iPhone

          On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" <edd_wood@...>wrote:

           

          Hi Bart

          Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
          Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
          The current barrels are 1835cc.

          Duncan

          --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Bart Ferguson <rambart@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
          >
          > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
          > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
          > case clearancing that has to be done.
          >
          >
          > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
          > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
          > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
          >
          > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
          > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
          >
          > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
          >
          >
          > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
          >
          >
          > Yes to counter weight
          >
          > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
          >
          > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
          > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
          > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
          > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
          >
          > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
          > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
          > the compression...
          >
          >
          > Bart
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: edd <edd_wood@...>
          > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
          > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
          >





        • Bart Ferguson
          LOL! Well said! ________________________________ From: Bill Clark To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:03 PM
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 13, 2013
          • 0 Attachment

            LOL! Well said!



            From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
            To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:03 PM
            Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

             
            Keep in mind what we are doing here;
             
            WE START with a 1930's oil cooled design engineered around an 1100cc displacement to produce 25hp at 4200 rpm at sea level with cooler than standard temperatures
             
            WE THEN double the displacement, reduce the rpm target for max power by almost 30%, completely strip the motor of the factory designed cooling mechanism, and hang a 4-7' disc on the crank nose.
             
            WE EXPECT a 4x + increase in horsepower, a 2x + increase in torque, no increase in operating temperature, and no change in reliability and longevity, a.k.a. 'the impossible'.
             
            Do you really want to do your shopping anywhere that incorporates 'low budget' into their name?


            From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Justin Schoeman
            Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 11:24 AM
            To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

             
            http://www.lowbugget.com/piston_page.html

            On 13/03/2013 20:16, Bart Ferguson wrote:
             

            no you cant. no such thing as 94mm slip ins. Bart



            From: Justin Schoeman <justin.schoeman@...>
            To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:12 PM
            Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

             
            You could also use 94mm slip-ins - hen you only need to machine the heads...

            On 13/03/2013 17:47, rambart@... wrote:
             


            Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" <edd_wood@...> wrote:

             

            Hi Bart

            Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
            Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
            The current barrels are 1835cc.

            Duncan

            --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Bart Ferguson <rambart@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
            >
            > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
            > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
            > case clearancing that has to be done.
            >
            >
            > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
            > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
            > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
            >
            > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
            > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
            >
            > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
            >
            >
            > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
            >
            >
            > Yes to counter weight
            >
            > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
            >
            > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
            > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
            > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
            > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
            >
            > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
            > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
            > the compression...
            >
            >
            > Bart
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: edd <edd_wood@...>
            > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
            > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
            >





          • Bart Ferguson
            Hi BC, very good points. I bet you have read Gene Bergs catalog from cover to cover like I have. He was one of the kings in air cooled VWs. Too bad he left us
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 13, 2013
            • 0 Attachment

              Hi BC, very good points. I bet you have read Gene Bergs catalog from cover to cover like I have. He was one of the kings in air cooled VWs. Too bad he left us early. Bart



              From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
              To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:50 PM
              Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

               
              Duncan,
               
              FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360 degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I build regardless of crank type I always ensure that rods/pistons/pins, and flywheel/pressure plate/clutch are static balanced within a gram and then have them and the crank dynamically balanced as well.
               
              Here's an example of the benefits from my personal experience of the counterweighted crank plus proper balance combination;
               
               I have one of these cranks that I bought in 1979 for $100.00 (back when you could still get a new German crank for $99.00). As an example of the abuse it's been a part of, I have run it in 4 crankcases on both the street and track. These engines have gone south for various reasons (none of which resulted in oil starvation) including my two favorite bizarre events of 1) rain water through the intake rusting cylinder walls, and 2) an aftermarket air cleaner lid loosening up and falling behind the squirrel cage on a trip from S.F. to Las Vegas in a 1971 VW Bus and rattling long enough to crack the case from the top of the #1 hole to the top seam of the case. That said, after running the crank for over 150K miles this crankshaft still mics out at the 10/10 'new' spec. If anyone doesn't see that as a testimony to the value of proper balancing, I don't know what else would convince them.
               
              As to cylinder capacity, basically anything over 85.5mm will require cutting the case and heads, although there are 87mm cylinders that will fit the stock bores. If you do overbore, never forget that if you have two choices for a given overbore (i.e. 90.5mm and 92mm use the same size hole) the price of more displacement is less cylinder wall thickness.
               
              If you live in an area that still has a shop that specializes in parts and service for air-cooled VW cars, it would be well worth your while to stop in and bend some ears. There is very little that applies to the street use of these motors that can't be translated and transferred to aero use, as long as you keep in mind that you will likely never exceed 3000 rpm and as aero use is more about torque than horsepower, you will most likely be using single port heads.
               
              It just so happens that I am in the process of building up a motor around the crank I mentioned, so I will try and post a picture before the end of the day.
               
              Regards,
               
              BC


              From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rambart@...
              Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:48 AM
              To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

               


              Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" <edd_wood@...> wrote:

               

              Hi Bart

              Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
              Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
              The current barrels are 1835cc.

              Duncan

              --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Bart Ferguson <rambart@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
              >
              > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
              > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
              > case clearancing that has to be done.
              >
              >
              > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
              > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
              > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
              >
              > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
              > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
              >
              > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
              >
              >
              > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
              >
              >
              > Yes to counter weight
              >
              > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
              >
              > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
              > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
              > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
              > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
              >
              > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
              > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
              > the compression...
              >
              >
              > Bart
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: edd <edd_wood@...>
              > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
              > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
              >



            • Bill Clark
              I was fortunate enough to have actually talked to Gene once at the Pomona swap meet back in the day, and yes, his catalog tips are still some of the best
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 13, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                I was fortunate enough to have actually talked to Gene once at the Pomona swap meet back in the day, and yes, his catalog tips are still some of the best guidance one can ever get on how to make one of these little guys live.
                 
                I often tell folks that if they ever run across a mechanic who talks about how 'simple' a VW engine is, RUN. The truth is that they are so incredibly well engineered that they appear simple to the uninformed. What 'Brother Gene' preached above all else boiled down to the fact that if we want to alter that design to get 'more' of something, it always comes with a cost, and if we are properly informed, we can choose how to split that cost amongst dollars, reliability, and longevity. He really didn't care if you bought his stuff nearly as much as he cared about making sure you knew what you were trading off in engine life when you chose to save on dollars and buy something else.
                 
                I didn't know Gene existed when I bought my hundred dollar Rimco crank, but I know now that today's $250.00 version isn't 25% of the Berg $1K forged counterweighted version. That said, I could afford to run the lesser part because I wasn't running it under a constant state of abuse.
                 
                Again, it always comes down to trading money for features. Spend for the features you need, and you will be very happy. Spend for the features you don't, or don't spend for those you do, and you should count yourself lucky if you don't become counted as a statistic.
                 
                Soapbox complete,
                 
                BC


                From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bart Ferguson
                Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:25 PM
                To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                 


                Hi BC, very good points. I bet you have read Gene Bergs catalog from cover to cover like I have. He was one of the kings in air cooled VWs. Too bad he left us early. Bart



                From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:50 PM
                Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                 
                Duncan,
                 
                FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360 degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I build regardless of crank type I always ensure that rods/pistons/pins, and flywheel/pressure plate/clutch are static balanced within a gram and then have them and the crank dynamically balanced as well.
                 
                Here's an example of the benefits from my personal experience of the counterweighted crank plus proper balance combination;
                 
                 I have one of these cranks that I bought in 1979 for $100.00 (back when you could still get a new German crank for $99.00). As an example of the abuse it's been a part of, I have run it in 4 crankcases on both the street and track. These engines have gone south for various reasons (none of which resulted in oil starvation) including my two favorite bizarre events of 1) rain water through the intake rusting cylinder walls, and 2) an aftermarket air cleaner lid loosening up and falling behind the squirrel cage on a trip from S.F. to Las Vegas in a 1971 VW Bus and rattling long enough to crack the case from the top of the #1 hole to the top seam of the case. That said, after running the crank for over 150K miles this crankshaft still mics out at the 10/10 'new' spec. If anyone doesn't see that as a testimony to the value of proper balancing, I don't know what else would convince them.
                 
                As to cylinder capacity, basically anything over 85.5mm will require cutting the case and heads, although there are 87mm cylinders that will fit the stock bores. If you do overbore, never forget that if you have two choices for a given overbore (i.e. 90.5mm and 92mm use the same size hole) the price of more displacement is less cylinder wall thickness.
                 
                If you live in an area that still has a shop that specializes in parts and service for air-cooled VW cars, it would be well worth your while to stop in and bend some ears. There is very little that applies to the street use of these motors that can't be translated and transferred to aero use, as long as you keep in mind that you will likely never exceed 3000 rpm and as aero use is more about torque than horsepower, you will most likely be using single port heads.
                 
                It just so happens that I am in the process of building up a motor around the crank I mentioned, so I will try and post a picture before the end of the day.
                 
                Regards,
                 
                BC


                From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rambart@...
                Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:48 AM
                To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                 


                Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" <edd_wood@...> wrote:

                 

                Hi Bart

                Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
                Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
                The current barrels are 1835cc.

                Duncan

                --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Bart Ferguson <rambart@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
                >
                > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
                > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
                > case clearancing that has to be done.
                >
                >
                > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
                > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
                > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
                >
                > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
                > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
                >
                > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
                >
                >
                > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
                >
                >
                > Yes to counter weight
                >
                > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
                >
                > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
                > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
                > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
                > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
                >
                > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
                > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
                > the compression...
                >
                >
                > Bart
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: edd <edd_wood@...>
                > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
                > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
                >



              • Bart Ferguson
                Yes, all so true. Bart ________________________________ From: Bill Clark To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:20 PM
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 13, 2013
                • 0 Attachment

                  Yes, all so true. Bart



                  From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                  To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:20 PM
                  Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                   
                  I was fortunate enough to have actually talked to Gene once at the Pomona swap meet back in the day, and yes, his catalog tips are still some of the best guidance one can ever get on how to make one of these little guys live.
                   
                  I often tell folks that if they ever run across a mechanic who talks about how 'simple' a VW engine is, RUN. The truth is that they are so incredibly well engineered that they appear simple to the uninformed. What 'Brother Gene' preached above all else boiled down to the fact that if we want to alter that design to get 'more' of something, it always comes with a cost, and if we are properly informed, we can choose how to split that cost amongst dollars, reliability, and longevity. He really didn't care if you bought his stuff nearly as much as he cared about making sure you knew what you were trading off in engine life when you chose to save on dollars and buy something else.
                   
                  I didn't know Gene existed when I bought my hundred dollar Rimco crank, but I know now that today's $250.00 version isn't 25% of the Berg $1K forged counterweighted version. That said, I could afford to run the lesser part because I wasn't running it under a constant state of abuse.
                   
                  Again, it always comes down to trading money for features. Spend for the features you need, and you will be very happy. Spend for the features you don't, or don't spend for those you do, and you should count yourself lucky if you don't become counted as a statistic.
                   
                  Soapbox complete,
                   
                  BC


                  From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bart Ferguson
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:25 PM
                  To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                   

                  Hi BC, very good points. I bet you have read Gene Bergs catalog from cover to cover like I have. He was one of the kings in air cooled VWs. Too bad he left us early. Bart



                  From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                  To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:50 PM
                  Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                   
                  Duncan,
                   
                  FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360 degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I build regardless of crank type I always ensure that rods/pistons/pins, and flywheel/pressure plate/clutch are static balanced within a gram and then have them and the crank dynamically balanced as well.
                   
                  Here's an example of the benefits from my personal experience of the counterweighted crank plus proper balance combination;
                   
                   I have one of these cranks that I bought in 1979 for $100.00 (back when you could still get a new German crank for $99.00). As an example of the abuse it's been a part of, I have run it in 4 crankcases on both the street and track. These engines have gone south for various reasons (none of which resulted in oil starvation) including my two favorite bizarre events of 1) rain water through the intake rusting cylinder walls, and 2) an aftermarket air cleaner lid loosening up and falling behind the squirrel cage on a trip from S.F. to Las Vegas in a 1971 VW Bus and rattling long enough to crack the case from the top of the #1 hole to the top seam of the case. That said, after running the crank for over 150K miles this crankshaft still mics out at the 10/10 'new' spec. If anyone doesn't see that as a testimony to the value of proper balancing, I don't know what else would convince them.
                   
                  As to cylinder capacity, basically anything over 85.5mm will require cutting the case and heads, although there are 87mm cylinders that will fit the stock bores. If you do overbore, never forget that if you have two choices for a given overbore (i.e. 90.5mm and 92mm use the same size hole) the price of more displacement is less cylinder wall thickness.
                   
                  If you live in an area that still has a shop that specializes in parts and service for air-cooled VW cars, it would be well worth your while to stop in and bend some ears. There is very little that applies to the street use of these motors that can't be translated and transferred to aero use, as long as you keep in mind that you will likely never exceed 3000 rpm and as aero use is more about torque than horsepower, you will most likely be using single port heads.
                   
                  It just so happens that I am in the process of building up a motor around the crank I mentioned, so I will try and post a picture before the end of the day.
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  BC


                  From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rambart@...
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:48 AM
                  To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                   


                  Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" <edd_wood@...> wrote:

                   

                  Hi Bart

                  Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
                  Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
                  The current barrels are 1835cc.

                  Duncan

                  --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Bart Ferguson <rambart@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
                  >
                  > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
                  > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
                  > case clearancing that has to be done.
                  >
                  >
                  > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
                  > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
                  > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
                  >
                  > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
                  > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
                  >
                  > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
                  >
                  >
                  > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes to counter weight
                  >
                  > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
                  >
                  > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
                  > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
                  > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
                  > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
                  >
                  > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
                  > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
                  > the compression...
                  >
                  >
                  > Bart
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: edd <edd_wood@...>
                  > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
                  > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
                  >





                • Mark Smith
                  We all have our own engine guru s out their, or up in the sky now. Another was Bob Hoover who was very active on these pages building engines. Many of us
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 14, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    We all have our own engine guru's out their, or up in the sky now. Another was Bob Hoover who was very active on these pages building engines. Many of us build engines using his HXV oil system modifications. He built engines for both racing and airplanes. He also was very clear about the trade off between $, power, and reliability. You build a drag racing engine, you get 300 hp for 6 seconds and then it blows up. In an airplane, be happy with 40 reliable fuel efficient cheap ponies. There is a reason why people build 1835 cc engines. It is also why I am building the VP-1. It is all a compromise. I am going with cheap and reliable.
                    Mark Smith, building the VP-1 the Rose Minette.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Bart Ferguson" <rambart@...>
                    To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:34:10 PM
                    Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft








                    Yes, all so true. Bart








                    From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                    To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:20 PM
                    Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft






                    I was fortunate enough to have actually talked to Gene once at the Pomona swap meet back in the day, and yes, his catalog tips are still some of the best guidance one can ever get on how to make one of these little guys live.

                    I often tell folks that if they ever run across a mechanic who talks about how 'simple' a VW engine is, RUN. The truth is that they are so incredibly well engineered that they appear simple to the uninformed. What 'Brother Gene' preached above all else boiled down to the fact that if we want to alter that design to get 'more' of something, it always comes with a cost, and if we are properly informed, we can choose how to split that cost amongst dollars, reliability, and longevity. He really didn't care if you bought his stuff nearly as much as he cared about making sure you knew what you were trading off in engine life when you chose to save on dollars and buy something else.

                    I didn't know Gene existed when I bought my hundred dollar Rimco crank, but I know now that today's $250.00 version isn't 25% of the Berg $1K forged counterweighted version. That said, I could afford to run the lesser part because I wasn't running it under a constant state of abuse.

                    Again, it always comes down to trading money for features. Spend for the features you need, and you will be very happy. Spend for the features you don't, or don't spend for those you do, and you should count yourself lucky if you don't become counted as a statistic.

                    Soapbox complete,

                    BC


                    From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bart Ferguson
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:25 PM
                    To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft






                    Hi BC, very good points. I bet you have read Gene Bergs catalog from cover to cover like I have. He was one of the kings in air cooled VWs. Too bad he left us early. Bart








                    From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                    To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:50 PM
                    Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft






                    Duncan,

                    FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360 degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I build regardless of crank type I always ensure that rods/pistons/pins, and flywheel/pressure plate/clutch are static balanced within a gram and then have them and the crank dynamically balanced as well.

                    Here's an example of the benefits from my personal experience of the counterweighted crank plus proper balance combination;

                    I have one of these cranks that I bought in 1979 for $100.00 (back when you could still get a new German crank for $99.00). As an example of the abuse it's been a part of, I have run it in 4 crankcases on both the street and track. These engines have gone south for various reasons (none of which resulted in oil starvation) including my two favorite bizarre events of 1) rain water through the intake rusting cylinder walls, and 2) an aftermarket air cleaner lid loosening up and falling behind the squirrel cage on a trip from S.F. to Las Vegas in a 1971 VW Bus and rattling long enough to crack the case from the top of the #1 hole to the top seam of the case. That said, after running the crank for over 150K miles this crankshaft still mics out at the 10/10 'new' spec. If anyone doesn't see that as a testimony to the value of proper balancing, I don't know what else would convince them.

                    As to cylinder capacity, basically anything over 85.5mm will require cutting the case and heads, although there are 87mm cylinders that will fit the stock bores. If you do overbore, never forget that if you have two choices for a given overbore (i.e. 90.5mm and 92mm use the same size hole) the price of more displacement is less cylinder wall thickness.

                    If you live in an area that still has a shop that specializes in parts and service for air-cooled VW cars, it would be well worth your while to stop in and bend some ears. There is very little that applies to the street use of these motors that can't be translated and transferred to aero use, as long as you keep in mind that you will likely never exceed 3000 rpm and as aero use is more about torque than horsepower, you will most likely be using single port heads.

                    It just so happens that I am in the process of building up a motor around the crank I mentioned, so I will try and post a picture before the end of the day.

                    Regards,

                    BC



                    From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rambart@...
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:48 AM
                    To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft









                    Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" < edd_wood@... > wrote:







                    Hi Bart

                    Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
                    Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
                    The current barrels are 1835cc.

                    Duncan

                    --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com , Bart Ferguson <rambart@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
                    >
                    > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
                    > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
                    > case clearancing that has to be done.
                    >
                    >
                    > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
                    > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
                    > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
                    >
                    > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
                    > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
                    >
                    > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
                    >
                    >
                    > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes to counter weight
                    >
                    > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
                    >
                    > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
                    > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
                    > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
                    > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
                    >
                    > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
                    > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
                    > the compression...
                    >
                    >
                    > Bart
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: edd <edd_wood@...>
                    > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
                    > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
                    >
                  • edd
                    After days of fruitless search for a decent and affordable replacement crank the guy in the next workshop gives me an original german built crank for free. Top
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 14, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      After days of fruitless search for a decent and affordable replacement crank the guy in the next workshop gives me an original german built crank for free. Top man!



                      --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Mark Smith <MXS2356@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > We all have our own engine guru's out their, or up in the sky now. Another was Bob Hoover who was very active on these pages building engines. Many of us build engines using his HXV oil system modifications. He built engines for both racing and airplanes. He also was very clear about the trade off between $, power, and reliability. You build a drag racing engine, you get 300 hp for 6 seconds and then it blows up. In an airplane, be happy with 40 reliable fuel efficient cheap ponies. There is a reason why people build 1835 cc engines. It is also why I am building the VP-1. It is all a compromise. I am going with cheap and reliable.
                      > Mark Smith, building the VP-1 the Rose Minette.
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Bart Ferguson" <rambart@...>
                      > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:34:10 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yes, all so true. Bart
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                      > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:20 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I was fortunate enough to have actually talked to Gene once at the Pomona swap meet back in the day, and yes, his catalog tips are still some of the best guidance one can ever get on how to make one of these little guys live.
                      >
                      > I often tell folks that if they ever run across a mechanic who talks about how 'simple' a VW engine is, RUN. The truth is that they are so incredibly well engineered that they appear simple to the uninformed. What 'Brother Gene' preached above all else boiled down to the fact that if we want to alter that design to get 'more' of something, it always comes with a cost, and if we are properly informed, we can choose how to split that cost amongst dollars, reliability, and longevity. He really didn't care if you bought his stuff nearly as much as he cared about making sure you knew what you were trading off in engine life when you chose to save on dollars and buy something else.
                      >
                      > I didn't know Gene existed when I bought my hundred dollar Rimco crank, but I know now that today's $250.00 version isn't 25% of the Berg $1K forged counterweighted version. That said, I could afford to run the lesser part because I wasn't running it under a constant state of abuse.
                      >
                      > Again, it always comes down to trading money for features. Spend for the features you need, and you will be very happy. Spend for the features you don't, or don't spend for those you do, and you should count yourself lucky if you don't become counted as a statistic.
                      >
                      > Soapbox complete,
                      >
                      > BC
                      >
                      >
                      > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bart Ferguson
                      > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:25 PM
                      > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi BC, very good points. I bet you have read Gene Bergs catalog from cover to cover like I have. He was one of the kings in air cooled VWs. Too bad he left us early. Bart
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                      > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:50 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Duncan,
                      >
                      > FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360 degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I build regardless of crank type I always ensure that rods/pistons/pins, and flywheel/pressure plate/clutch are static balanced within a gram and then have them and the crank dynamically balanced as well.
                      >
                      > Here's an example of the benefits from my personal experience of the counterweighted crank plus proper balance combination;
                      >
                      > I have one of these cranks that I bought in 1979 for $100.00 (back when you could still get a new German crank for $99.00). As an example of the abuse it's been a part of, I have run it in 4 crankcases on both the street and track. These engines have gone south for various reasons (none of which resulted in oil starvation) including my two favorite bizarre events of 1) rain water through the intake rusting cylinder walls, and 2) an aftermarket air cleaner lid loosening up and falling behind the squirrel cage on a trip from S.F. to Las Vegas in a 1971 VW Bus and rattling long enough to crack the case from the top of the #1 hole to the top seam of the case. That said, after running the crank for over 150K miles this crankshaft still mics out at the 10/10 'new' spec. If anyone doesn't see that as a testimony to the value of proper balancing, I don't know what else would convince them.
                      >
                      > As to cylinder capacity, basically anything over 85.5mm will require cutting the case and heads, although there are 87mm cylinders that will fit the stock bores. If you do overbore, never forget that if you have two choices for a given overbore (i.e. 90.5mm and 92mm use the same size hole) the price of more displacement is less cylinder wall thickness.
                      >
                      > If you live in an area that still has a shop that specializes in parts and service for air-cooled VW cars, it would be well worth your while to stop in and bend some ears. There is very little that applies to the street use of these motors that can't be translated and transferred to aero use, as long as you keep in mind that you will likely never exceed 3000 rpm and as aero use is more about torque than horsepower, you will most likely be using single port heads.
                      >
                      > It just so happens that I am in the process of building up a motor around the crank I mentioned, so I will try and post a picture before the end of the day.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > BC
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rambart@...
                      > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:48 AM
                      > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.
                      >
                      > Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" < edd_wood@... > wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Bart
                      >
                      > Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
                      > Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
                      > The current barrels are 1835cc.
                      >
                      > Duncan
                      >
                      > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com , Bart Ferguson <rambart@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
                      > >
                      > > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
                      > > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
                      > > case clearancing that has to be done.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
                      > > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
                      > > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
                      > >
                      > > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
                      > > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
                      > >
                      > > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yes to counter weight
                      > >
                      > > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
                      > >
                      > > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
                      > > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
                      > > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
                      > > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
                      > >
                      > > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
                      > > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
                      > > the compression...
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Bart
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: edd <edd_wood@>
                      > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
                      > > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
                      > >
                      >
                    • Bill Clark
                      For the interested... I have posted a picture of the counterweighted and standard cranks side by side at
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 14, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        For the interested...
                         
                        I have posted a picture of the counterweighted and standard cranks side by side at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirVW/photos/album/372345682/pic/140739171/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc, and since it shrank the quality and size dramatically, I uploaded the photo as a file to get it available full size at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirVW/files/MiscStuff/ as CounterWeightCrank.jpg.
                         
                        Sorry that the only standard crank I had handy was such a boat anchor, but I didn't want to hold up getting the pictures up (or getting the engine built) for the couple of days it would take to dig out a prettier example.
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        BC


                        From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bart Ferguson
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:34 PM
                        To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                         


                        Yes, all so true. Bart



                        From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                        To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:20 PM
                        Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                         
                        I was fortunate enough to have actually talked to Gene once at the Pomona swap meet back in the day, and yes, his catalog tips are still some of the best guidance one can ever get on how to make one of these little guys live.
                         
                        I often tell folks that if they ever run across a mechanic who talks about how 'simple' a VW engine is, RUN. The truth is that they are so incredibly well engineered that they appear simple to the uninformed. What 'Brother Gene' preached above all else boiled down to the fact that if we want to alter that design to get 'more' of something, it always comes with a cost, and if we are properly informed, we can choose how to split that cost amongst dollars, reliability, and longevity. He really didn't care if you bought his stuff nearly as much as he cared about making sure you knew what you were trading off in engine life when you chose to save on dollars and buy something else.
                         
                        I didn't know Gene existed when I bought my hundred dollar Rimco crank, but I know now that today's $250.00 version isn't 25% of the Berg $1K forged counterweighted version. That said, I could afford to run the lesser part because I wasn't running it under a constant state of abuse.
                         
                        Again, it always comes down to trading money for features. Spend for the features you need, and you will be very happy. Spend for the features you don't, or don't spend for those you do, and you should count yourself lucky if you don't become counted as a statistic.
                         
                        Soapbox complete,
                         
                        BC


                        From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bart Ferguson
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:25 PM
                        To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                         

                        Hi BC, very good points. I bet you have read Gene Bergs catalog from cover to cover like I have. He was one of the kings in air cooled VWs. Too bad he left us early. Bart



                        From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                        To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:50 PM
                        Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                         
                        Duncan,
                         
                        FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360 degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I build regardless of crank type I always ensure that rods/pistons/pins, and flywheel/pressure plate/clutch are static balanced within a gram and then have them and the crank dynamically balanced as well.
                         
                        Here's an example of the benefits from my personal experience of the counterweighted crank plus proper balance combination;
                         
                         I have one of these cranks that I bought in 1979 for $100.00 (back when you could still get a new German crank for $99.00). As an example of the abuse it's been a part of, I have run it in 4 crankcases on both the street and track. These engines have gone south for various reasons (none of which resulted in oil starvation) including my two favorite bizarre events of 1) rain water through the intake rusting cylinder walls, and 2) an aftermarket air cleaner lid loosening up and falling behind the squirrel cage on a trip from S.F. to Las Vegas in a 1971 VW Bus and rattling long enough to crack the case from the top of the #1 hole to the top seam of the case. That said, after running the crank for over 150K miles this crankshaft still mics out at the 10/10 'new' spec. If anyone doesn't see that as a testimony to the value of proper balancing, I don't know what else would convince them.
                         
                        As to cylinder capacity, basically anything over 85.5mm will require cutting the case and heads, although there are 87mm cylinders that will fit the stock bores. If you do overbore, never forget that if you have two choices for a given overbore (i.e. 90.5mm and 92mm use the same size hole) the price of more displacement is less cylinder wall thickness.
                         
                        If you live in an area that still has a shop that specializes in parts and service for air-cooled VW cars, it would be well worth your while to stop in and bend some ears. There is very little that applies to the street use of these motors that can't be translated and transferred to aero use, as long as you keep in mind that you will likely never exceed 3000 rpm and as aero use is more about torque than horsepower, you will most likely be using single port heads.
                         
                        It just so happens that I am in the process of building up a motor around the crank I mentioned, so I will try and post a picture before the end of the day.
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        BC


                        From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rambart@...
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:48 AM
                        To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft

                         


                        Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more parts to be removed.

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" <edd_wood@...> wrote:

                         

                        Hi Bart

                        Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than risk a reproduction crank.
                        Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
                        The current barrels are 1835cc.

                        Duncan

                        --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, Bart Ferguson <rambart@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74, 76, 78, 82 and 84.
                        >
                        > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
                        > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
                        > case clearancing that has to be done.
                        >
                        >
                        > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
                        > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
                        > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston set.
                        >
                        > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
                        > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
                        >
                        > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the push rods.
                        >
                        >
                        > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be addressed.
                        >
                        >
                        > Yes to counter weight
                        >
                        > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is a good place to start.
                        >
                        > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
                        > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
                        > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
                        > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
                        >
                        > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
                        > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
                        > the compression...
                        >
                        >
                        > Bart
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: edd <edd_wood@...>
                        > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
                        > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
                        >





                      • neville_cameron
                        Do you run a filter? Thanks Neville
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 19, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Do you run a filter?
                          Thanks
                          Neville
                          --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Clark" <dba4you@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > For the interested...
                          >
                          > I have posted a picture of the counterweighted and standard cranks side by
                          > side at
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirVW/photos/album/372345682/pic/140739171/vi
                          > ew?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc>
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirVW/photos/album/372345682/pic/140739171/vie
                          > w?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc, and since it
                          > shrank the quality and size dramatically, I uploaded the photo as a file to
                          > get it available full size at
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirVW/files/MiscStuff/>
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirVW/files/MiscStuff/ as
                          > CounterWeightCrank.jpg.
                          >
                          > Sorry that the only standard crank I had handy was such a boat anchor, but I
                          > didn't want to hold up getting the pictures up (or getting the engine built)
                          > for the couple of days it would take to dig out a prettier example.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > BC
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bart
                          > Ferguson
                          > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:34 PM
                          > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yes, all so true. Bart
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                          > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:20 PM
                          > Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I was fortunate enough to have actually talked to Gene once at the Pomona
                          > swap meet back in the day, and yes, his catalog tips are still some of the
                          > best guidance one can ever get on how to make one of these little guys live.
                          >
                          > I often tell folks that if they ever run across a mechanic who talks about
                          > how 'simple' a VW engine is, RUN. The truth is that they are so incredibly
                          > well engineered that they appear simple to the uninformed. What 'Brother
                          > Gene' preached above all else boiled down to the fact that if we want to
                          > alter that design to get 'more' of something, it always comes with a cost,
                          > and if we are properly informed, we can choose how to split that cost
                          > amongst dollars, reliability, and longevity. He really didn't care if you
                          > bought his stuff nearly as much as he cared about making sure you knew what
                          > you were trading off in engine life when you chose to save on dollars and
                          > buy something else.
                          >
                          > I didn't know Gene existed when I bought my hundred dollar Rimco crank, but
                          > I know now that today's $250.00 version isn't 25% of the Berg $1K forged
                          > counterweighted version. That said, I could afford to run the lesser part
                          > because I wasn't running it under a constant state of abuse.
                          >
                          > Again, it always comes down to trading money for features. Spend for the
                          > features you need, and you will be very happy. Spend for the features you
                          > don't, or don't spend for those you do, and you should count yourself lucky
                          > if you don't become counted as a statistic.
                          >
                          > Soapbox complete,
                          >
                          > BC
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bart
                          > Ferguson
                          > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:25 PM
                          > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi BC, very good points. I bet you have read Gene Bergs catalog from cover
                          > to cover like I have. He was one of the kings in air cooled VWs. Too bad he
                          > left us early. Bart
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: Bill Clark <dba4you@...>
                          > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:50 PM
                          > Subject: RE: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Duncan,
                          >
                          > FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines
                          > rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be
                          > to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two
                          > on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank
                          > (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in
                          > such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360
                          > degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I
                          > build regardless of crank type I always ensure that rods/pistons/pins, and
                          > flywheel/pressure plate/clutch are static balanced within a gram and then
                          > have them and the crank dynamically balanced as well.
                          >
                          > Here's an example of the benefits from my personal experience of the
                          > counterweighted crank plus proper balance combination;
                          >
                          > I have one of these cranks that I bought in 1979 for $100.00 (back when you
                          > could still get a new German crank for $99.00). As an example of the abuse
                          > it's been a part of, I have run it in 4 crankcases on both the street and
                          > track. These engines have gone south for various reasons (none of which
                          > resulted in oil starvation) including my two favorite bizarre events of 1)
                          > rain water through the intake rusting cylinder walls, and 2) an aftermarket
                          > air cleaner lid loosening up and falling behind the squirrel cage on a trip
                          > from S.F. to Las Vegas in a 1971 VW Bus and rattling long enough to crack
                          > the case from the top of the #1 hole to the top seam of the case. That said,
                          > after running the crank for over 150K miles this crankshaft still mics out
                          > at the 10/10 'new' spec. If anyone doesn't see that as a testimony to the
                          > value of proper balancing, I don't know what else would convince them.
                          >
                          > As to cylinder capacity, basically anything over 85.5mm will require cutting
                          > the case and heads, although there are 87mm cylinders that will fit the
                          > stock bores. If you do overbore, never forget that if you have two choices
                          > for a given overbore (i.e. 90.5mm and 92mm use the same size hole) the price
                          > of more displacement is less cylinder wall thickness.
                          >
                          > If you live in an area that still has a shop that specializes in parts and
                          > service for air-cooled VW cars, it would be well worth your while to stop in
                          > and bend some ears. There is very little that applies to the street use of
                          > these motors that can't be translated and transferred to aero use, as long
                          > as you keep in mind that you will likely never exceed 3000 rpm and as aero
                          > use is more about torque than horsepower, you will most likely be using
                          > single port heads.
                          >
                          > It just so happens that I am in the process of building up a motor around
                          > the crank I mentioned, so I will try and post a picture before the end of
                          > the day.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > BC
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: AirVW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirVW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          > rambart@...
                          > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:48 AM
                          > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [AirVW] Re: Crankshaft
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hey Duncan. Stock bore is 85.5mm x 69mm stroke = 1585cc. Your 1835 has a
                          > bore of 92mm and the stock 69mm stroke. The case had to be bored for the
                          > 92s. In order to use 94s, the case would have to be bored even larger as
                          > well as the heads. This is a lot more work than just replacing the crank
                          > because the cases need to be thoroughly cleaned after boring requiring more
                          > parts to be removed.
                          >
                          > Sent from my iPhone
                          >
                          > On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "edd" <edd_wood@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Bart
                          >
                          > Thanks for the info. As luck would have it I have been given an original
                          > German crank by a neighbour so i'm going to get that machined rather than
                          > risk a reproduction crank.
                          > Do you know the max capacity I can take the cylinders out to with a standard
                          > 69mm crank without machining the cases? I hear 1915 barrels are available?
                          > The current barrels are 1835cc.
                          >
                          > Duncan
                          >
                          > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com> , Bart
                          > Ferguson <rambart@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi, your stock crank is a 69mm stroke, stroker cranks are available in 74,
                          > 76, 78, 82 and 84.
                          > >
                          > > To swap to a 74mm would be fairly simple, you may have to clearance the
                          > > case internally. With a 78mm and above there is quite a bit of internal
                          > > case clearancing that has to be done.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > You would shim under the cylinders half the increase in stroke. IE: 5mm
                          > > increase, 2.5mm shims under the cylinders and this is for strokes up to
                          > > 78mm. At 82 mm stroke, you change to an 82 mm stroke cylinder and piston
                          > set.
                          > >
                          > > I would do away with the 92mm cylinders and go to 94 as they are
                          > > stronger but you will need the case and heads bored for the 94s.
                          > >
                          > > Also with changing strokes, you will also need to change the length of the
                          > push rods.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Increasing stroke also increases the compression. This needs to be
                          > addressed.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yes to counter weight
                          > >
                          > > Probably no to Chinese. Do some research on this, Great Plains website is
                          > a good place to start.
                          > >
                          > > Even though the new cranks may have 8 dowel, you only need to use 4. Make
                          > > sure that they are the same diameter as you have, I believe, 8mm. Using
                          > > an 8 doweled crankshaft is only for high performance street engines
                          > > where the 4 doweled flywheel will not hold up between it and crankshaft.
                          > >
                          > > I said switching to a 74mm would be fairly simple, for someone who's done
                          > it before. For someone who has not, there's a lot involved. You may
                          > > choose to just go with larger 94mm jugs to get a 1914. Which also ups
                          > > the compression...
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Bart
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > > From: edd <edd_wood@>
                          > > To: AirVW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AirVW%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:10 AM
                          > > Subject: [AirVW] Crankshaft
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I have to replace the crankshaft in my 1835 HAPI so I may as well up the
                          > power by starting with a stroker crank but the range of cranks on offer is
                          > bewildering. Counter weighted or not? Most of the cranks on offer seem to be
                          > Chinese made, are they reliable? Four or eight dowel pins? The flywheel has
                          > four dowel pins but most of the new cranks have eight?
                          > >
                          >
                        • garywolf@rogers.com
                          I have a 1600 with a counterweighed crank, matched rods, and rotating assembly, and 041 heads. It was in my Formula V 1600 race car and has recently been
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 21, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I have a 1600 with a counterweighed crank, matched rods, and rotating assembly, and 041 heads. It was in my Formula V 1600 race car and has recently been refitted with new bearings and rings, and everything measures as new. In race trim the cam was retarded four degrees with a stepped key but now it has been assembled with the stock key for stock timings. It has not run yet but I expect that it ewill stop breathing well at about 36-3800 rpms.

                            In the car we were revving to 5800 rpms and never had any problems over two seasons, and even the valve gear lived well through all of this. This was common for all who raced in this class. I am wondering why in aircraft use it is common to limit revs to 3000 rpms. I know about prop tip speed and am not asking about the limit imposed by that. I am asking if anyone has been using continuous rpms above 3000 and what has been the result.

                            Gary Wolf



                            --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Clark" <dba4you@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Duncan,
                            >
                            > FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines
                            > rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be
                            > to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two
                            > on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank
                            > (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in
                            > such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360
                            > degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I
                          • Charlie Johnson
                            Gary, I ran a couple of HAPI 1835cc engines on my Dragonfly Mk-II with a 52 X 42 prop. Static was 3000 rpm but due to the low drag of my airframe it would
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 21, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Gary,

                              I ran a couple of HAPI 1835cc engines on my Dragonfly Mk-II with a 52" X 42" prop. Static was 3000 rpm but due to the low drag of my airframe it would unload in the air. I live at 4430 MSL and at 5000 ft level wide open throttle I got 3650 rpm @ 150 mph. Normal cruise was 3400 rpm wide open throttle @ 130's for 250 to 300 miles to the next fuel stop. I flew cross country 8 to 10 hours stopping for fuel 2 or 3 times on trips up to 1050 miles. The first engine lasted 650 hrs before popping a case stud. It was getting pretty sloppy, and I found another HAPI with 40 hrs on it. The replacement short block ran strong for 200 hrs before the HAPI prop hub, short taper, big bolt connection failed at the hold short line at KTOA.

                              The replacement is a 2700cc Corvair and I am in phase 1flight testing.

                              Regards,

                              Charlie Johnson, flying Dragonfly
                              Ogden, Ut.

                              Sent from my iPad

                              On Mar 21, 2013, at 3:12 AM, garywolf@... wrote:

                              >
                              > I have a 1600 with a counterweighed crank, matched rods, and rotating assembly, and 041 heads. It was in my Formula V 1600 race car and has recently been refitted with new bearings and rings, and everything measures as new. In race trim the cam was retarded four degrees with a stepped key but now it has been assembled with the stock key for stock timings. It has not run yet but I expect that it ewill stop breathing well at about 36-3800 rpms.
                              >
                              > In the car we were revving to 5800 rpms and never had any problems over two seasons, and even the valve gear lived well through all of this. This was common for all who raced in this class. I am wondering why in aircraft use it is common to limit revs to 3000 rpms. I know about prop tip speed and am not asking about the limit imposed by that. I am asking if anyone has been using continuous rpms above 3000 and what has been the result.
                              >
                              > Gary Wolf
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In AirVW@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Clark" <dba4you@...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >> Duncan,
                              >>
                              >> FWIW and keeping in mind that 99.8% of my experience is with street engines
                              >> rather than aero engines, the very first upgrade I would invest in would be
                              >> to use a fully counterweighted crankshaft. Unless you spend a grand or two
                              >> on a Berg Forged version, the process is to take a standard German crank
                              >> (ideally one that will turn to 10/10) and weld additional counterweights in
                              >> such a weigh that the crank is statically balanced through the entire 360
                              >> degree rotation as well as dynamically balanced. Also, on every motor I
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
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                              >
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