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pygmee bid 500 euro's

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  • hardcorebill70
    dear group i hope you can help me out i launched i few weeks ago my site now i got a bid on my pygmee by man thats DR.A. etnograpy, he thinks its real for
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 19 2:43 PM
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      dear group i hope you can help me out i launched i few weeks ago my site
      now i got a bid on my pygmee by man thats DR.A. etnograpy, he thinks
      its real for 500.euro's, can anyone tell me what pygmee's do on
      auctions and is it a good bid,For me it's a lot of money.
      pictures to been seen on my site
      http://members.home.nl/s.rieftink/index.html
      i'm a collector not a dealer so please help me out.
      thanx Bill
    • ndoungue richard
      BILL I think 500.euro is fair price for your pygmee, for my experience thank hardcorebill70 wrote: dear group i hope you can help me out
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 20 6:43 AM
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        BILL
         
        I think 500.euro is fair price for your pygmee, for my experience
        thank

        hardcorebill70 <hardcorebill@...> wrote:
        dear group i hope you can help me out i launched i few weeks ago my site
        now i got a bid on my pygmee by man thats DR.A. etnograpy, he thinks
        its real for 500.euro's, can anyone tell me what pygmee's do on
        auctions and is it a good bid,For me it's a lot of money.
        pictures to been seen on my site
        http://members.home.nl/s.rieftink/index.html
        i'm a collector not a dealer so please help me out.
        thanx Bill







        Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo.

      • LRubinstein@post.harvard.edu
        Bill: I have never determined the specific origin, meaning, function...or value of these enigmatic figures or stools. I have seen them identified as Pygmy
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 20 8:09 AM
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          Bill:
           
          I have never determined the specific origin, meaning, function...or value of these enigmatic figures or stools.  I have seen them identified as Pygmy as well as Bamum, Tikar...even Zande.   The "figural stools," as I tend to refer to them, appear to be associated with or representative of local pygmy populations;  however, I have not come across any specific documentation that indicates that they are produced or used by these peoples or which such populations they night be associated.  The identifications seem often to be linked with non-Pygmy groups that live in areas bordering the Central African forests where the "forest people" -- Mbuti, Yaka (or BaYaka), Bajelle, Efe, Lese, Twa -- seem to be generally recognized as "first inhabitants" in these areas from Cameroon to the West through Rwanda to the Southeast.  So, it is perhaps more likely that they are representative of these peoples as depicted by neighboring groups rather than produced by them.  (Just a hypothesis...)
           
          Anybody with available information that can fill the void of specific knowledge, please do advise. Any information that you can gather about these figures from your interested party who has indicated that it is "real" would be appreciated. 
           
          These "figural stools" seem to be offered -- and sold -- with varying identifications at a broad range of prices, so that makes determination of "authenticity" and value somewhat challenging.  For example, this link shows one 16.5" tall and identified as a "Bamoun ancestor figure" that sold through Sujaro for $750.  See http://www.sujaro.com/i_020statues/140-s255bamunfig.html  Another such figure identified as "Pygmy" is available through Africa Direct for $295:  http://www.africadirect.com/productsdesc.php?ID=5021  So, depending on the size of the figure you have, the amount offered does seem in line with current prices for such objects.
           
          I have several of these figural stools ranging in size from about 9 inches tall to this massive one below  -- which can also be seen in photos from my recent exhibition -- that stands 32" tall and is about 20" wide and deep.  The wood is extremely dense making the figure amazingly heavy.  Although this picture doesn't capture it, the surface of the wood shows nice signs of age and the piece does not show any intent to crack like some of the other examples I have gathered...suggesting perhaps that this particular figure has had a longer former life than some of the others.  The smaller figures too exhibit deep, rich surface finishes.
           
          Here is a link to the Cameroon Grasslands region page of the exhibition;  I have also included in this posting below the image to which I referred.  I will also try to capture and post better images of this figure and some of the smaller ones, too.
           
           
          With regard to the pygmy populations of Africa, here is one link that provides some general information as well as links to other sites, information, news and images.  I recommend viewing the video provided by clicking on the "Watch video" link on the upper right-hand side of the screen:  http://www.survival-international.org/tribes.php?tribe_id=35
           
          Other relevant links include:
          www.maurocampagnoli.com  (One of my favorites!)
           
          Lee
           
        • Junaid Gamieldien, PhD
          Hi, Individuals from the Bamileke and Bamoun that I have spoken to mostly attribute these objects to the Tikar, who apparently believe that the pygmies were
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 22 3:37 AM
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            Hi,

            Individuals from the Bamileke and Bamoun that I have spoken to mostly attribute these
            objects to the Tikar, who apparently believe that the pygmies were the first people on
            earth. The Tikar supposedly revere the pygmies as gods and many had clay 'house gods'
            that represent the 'little people'. The objects are stools and have markings on top of the
            head (sitting surface) that are similar to other stools that I have seen from the Cameroon
            Grasslands.

            I am currently looking to sell my the pair (male and female) of these stools - I'm saving
            towards a HUGE (1.3m X 1.3m) Benin plaque :) My pair look slightly different from the
            Sujaro and Africa Direct ones, but are virtually identical to each other except for the male
            and female anatomical bits. Both are approximately 16 inches tall and very heavy/dense. If
            anyone is interested, please email me (I won't split
            them up), which includes shipping costs.

            I've taken a quick photo of the pair and they are in a photo folder called 'junaid'.

            Junaid




            --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, LRubinstein@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > Bill:
            >
            > I have never determined the specific origin, meaning, function...or value of
            > these enigmatic figures or stools. I have seen them identified as Pygmy as
            > well as Bamum, Tikar...even Zande. The "figural stools," as I tend to refer
            > to them, appear to be associated with or representative of local pygmy
            > populations; however, I have not come across any specific documentation that
            > indicates that they are produced or used by these peoples or which such
            > populations they night be associated. The identifications seem often to be linked
            > with non-Pygmy groups that live in areas bordering the Central African forests
            > where the "forest people" -- Mbuti, Yaka (or BaYaka), Bajelle, Efe, Lese, Twa
            > -- seem to be generally recognized as "first inhabitants" in these areas from
            > Cameroon to the West through Rwanda to the Southeast. So, it is perhaps
            > more likely that they are representative of these peoples as depicted by
            > neighboring groups rather than produced by them. (Just a hypothesis...)
            >
            > Anybody with available information that can fill the void of specific
            > knowledge, please do advise. Any information that you can gather about these
            > figures from your interested party who has indicated that it is "real" would be
            > appreciated.
            >
            > These "figural stools" seem to be offered -- and sold -- with varying
            > identifications at a broad range of prices, so that makes determination of
            > "authenticity" and value somewhat challenging. For example, this link shows one
            > 16.5" tall and identified as a "Bamoun ancestor figure" that sold through Sujaro
            > for $750. See _http://www.sujaro.com/i_020statues/140-s255bamunfig.html_
            > (http://www.sujaro.com/i_020statues/140-s255bamunfig.html) Another such figure
            > identified as "Pygmy" is available through Africa Direct for $295:
            > _http://www.africadirect.com/productsdesc.php?ID=P21_
            > (http://www.africadirect.com/productsdesc.php?ID=P21) So, depending on the size
            of the figure you have,
            > the amount offered does seem in line with current prices for such objects.
            >
            > I have several of these figural stools ranging in size from about 9 inches
            > tall to this massive one below -- which can also be seen in photos from my
            > recent exhibition -- that stands 32" tall and is about 20" wide and deep. The
            > wood is extremely dense making the figure amazingly heavy. Although this
            > picture doesn't capture it, the surface of the wood shows nice signs of age and
            > the piece does not show any intent to crack like some of the other examples I
            > have gathered...suggesting perhaps that this particular figure has had a
            > longer former life than some of the others. The smaller figures too exhibit
            > deep, rich surface finishes.
            >
            > Here is a link to the Cameroon Grasslands region page of the exhibition; I
            > have also included in this posting below the image to which I referred. I
            > will also try to capture and post better images of this figure and some of the
            > smaller ones, too.
            > _http://www.leoafricanus.net/Exhibition_Cameroon_Grasslands.html_
            > (http://www.leoafricanus.net/Exhibition_Cameroon_Grasslands.html)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > With regard to the pygmy populations of Africa, here is one link that
            > provides some general information as well as links to other sites, information,
            > news and images. I recommend viewing the video provided by clicking on the
            > "Watch video" link on the upper right-hand side of the screen:
            > _http://www.survival-international.org/tribes.php?tribe_id=5_
            > (http://www.survival-international.org/tribes.php?tribe_id=5)
            >
            > Other relevant links include:
            > _http://www.baka.co.uk/baka/index.html_
            > (http://www.baka.co.uk/baka/index.html)
            > _www.maurocampagnoli.com_ (http://www.maurocampagnoli.com) (One of my
            > favorites!)
            >
            > Lee
            >
          • leerubinstein
            Junaid: Thanks for sharing the images and especially for the information regarding what you have learned about the Pygmy figural stools. The explanation and
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 22 8:01 AM
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              Junaid:

              Thanks for sharing the images and especially for the information
              regarding what you have learned about the "Pygmy" figural stools. The
              explanation and attribution you have provided seem to me the most
              feasible accounting for these figures.

              Now, on another topic...you mention a "HUGE" Benin plaque that has
              caught your interest. I am struck by the dimensions that you indicate
              (1.3m x 1.3m). Most of the examples cited in the relevant literature
              rarely achieve or exceed about half of that size; most documented
              Benin plaques range from roughly 42 to 51 cm in their outer
              dimensions. Of course, the quantity of modern reproductions is
              considerable and the quality in some cases very fine. However, I do
              not come across any historical examples that approach the dimensions of
              the plaque you describe.

              Lee
            • Junaid Gamieldien, PhD
              ... Its a pleasure. I am only relaying what I have been told, and I am glad to be able to contribute for once ;) ... Yes, I understand your concern. I realized
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 22 11:52 AM
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                --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, "leerubinstein" <LRubinstein@...> wrote:
                > Junaid:
                >
                > Thanks for sharing the images and especially for the information
                > regarding what you have learned about the "Pygmy" figural stools. The
                > explanation and attribution you have provided seem to me the most
                > feasible accounting for these figures.

                Its a pleasure. I am only relaying what I have been told, and I am glad to be able to
                contribute for once ;)

                > Now, on another topic...you mention a "HUGE" Benin plaque that has
                > caught your interest. I am struck by the dimensions that you indicate
                > (1.3m x 1.3m). Most of the examples cited in the relevant literature
                > rarely achieve or exceed about half of that size; most documented
                > Benin plaques range from roughly 42 to 51 cm in their outer
                > dimensions. Of course, the quantity of modern reproductions is
                > considerable and the quality in some cases very fine. However, I do
                > not come across any historical examples that approach the dimensions of
                > the plaque you describe.

                Yes, I understand your concern. I realized that the proportions suggest that it is a
                reproduction, but the quality is such that it really caught my interest - not any visible trace
                of solder, the high relief, very distinct and clear carvings. Also a dark patina that suggests
                that it is probably not very young, even though it is probably 20th century. Certainly a
                work of art, in my humble opinion. I have convinced myself (for now) that it probably
                wasn't made as an intentional *fake*.

                That said, I do have an obsession with bronzes and have a number in my collection, many
                being very large objects of the lost-wax type, including several Benin bronze oba's and
                Bamoun ancestor figures measuring 80-90cm in height and many Ife heads (too many)
                measuring 40-45cm in height. There are many redundancies and I will be letting many of
                them go. My collection is 1-dimensional due to this bronze obsession and I really need to
                start diversifying.

                To be honest, I have gone for the bronzes because I am still too easily fooled by fakes in
                other mediums like wood and beadwork. Most of these type that I have in my collection
                (that I'm convinced are authentic) don't really do anything for me. I know what I like, but
                I'm just a bit hesitant to spend the money for fear of buying lemons...

                So, that huge plaque will have my attention for a while :) I will ask the owner if I can
                photograph it and then post it here for comments, before I go spending my newly freed up
                cash.

                Regards,
                Junaid

                > Lee
                >
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