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Fwd: 4 pictures for you

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  • musso tony
    Hello everyone, I picked up this piece recently and I am trying to get opinions and general valuation of it. Attached is a summary also. It weighs about 80
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 12, 2005
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      Hello everyone,  I picked up this piece recently and I am trying to get opinions and general valuation of it.  Attached is a summary also.  It weighs about 80 pounds and is about 30 inches tall and about 33 inches in diameter on top.  All the best,  Tony

      Note: forwarded message attached.


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    • David Norden african-antiques.com
      Dear , Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it could have some age but
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 12, 2005
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        Bericht

        Dear ,

        Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the carving.
         
        Best regards,
         
        David Norden
        Sint Katelijnevest 27 B2000 Antwerpen.
        Belgium
                  Tel.: +32 (0)3 227.35.40   

         
        -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
        Van: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Namens musso tony
        Verzonden: zaterdag 12 november 2005 22:42
        Aan: african_arts@yahoogroups.com
        Onderwerp: [African_Arts] Fwd: 4 pictures for you

        Hello everyone,  I picked up this piece recently and I am trying to get opinions and general valuation of it.  Attached is a summary also.  It weighs about 80 pounds and is about 30 inches tall and about 33 inches in diameter on top.  All the best,  Tony

        Note: forwarded message attached.
      • leerubinstein
        Tony: Thanks for posting the images of your Bamileke throne or stool. I have loaded the images into the Photos section under the title MussoBamileke for
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 12, 2005
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          Tony:

          Thanks for posting the images of your Bamileke "throne" or stool. I
          have loaded the images into the "Photos" section under the
          title "MussoBamileke" for those who do not receive individual
          postings or have difficulty accessing the images. For the same
          reason I have pasted your information sheet which you included below
          within this message.

          Bamileke beadwork was one of the first major (sub-)traditions that
          helped to create my interest in African traditional arts. Although I
          have done a lot of reading and research, I am still working to
          develop the tools I think are necessary to assess the origins and
          authenticity of individual examples. One of the best sources of
          information would be the person from whom you acquired the stool. She
          would be the best place to start to inquire about the history, place
          of origin and any related information about the piece. It would be
          interesting to hear any information, history and stories that she
          might share...

          Then, a search for any documentation of the object in situ would help
          to verify, support, clarify the information that you are able to
          receive from Ms. Kadji. Linking a specific object to specific places
          and times is a difficult and fascinating (not to mention sometimes
          endless) pursuit, but it will always benefit you by revealing
          information -- both relevant and tangential -- that will enhance your
          interest, appreciation, passion, etc., and help you to develop your
          knowledge and assessment resources.

          One helpful resource in this regard is this Bibliography created by
          the Smithsonian as part of the "Beaded Splendor" exhibition web-
          site. Among the books listed is a relevant work -- one which I would
          love to see -- but it is extremely rare and costly. The work is
          Christraud M. Geary's "Things of the Palace," a catalogue of the
          Foumban chefferie royal collection. Dr. Geary has done extensive
          research and writing on Bamileke royal traditions and on photography
          in Africa among other specializations and has curated the Eliot
          Elisofon Photographic Archives at the Smithsonian. She now serves as
          the Curator of the African Ccollection at the Museum of Fine Arts
          (MFA) in Boston -- which is anchored by the recent gift/loan of works
          from the William and Bertha Teel collection.

          The link to the Bibliography:
          http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/migrations/beads/beadread.html

          In the absence of the Geary work, another helpful link is a link to a
          site which features four of the museums IN the Cameroon Grasslands, a
          link which Rand posted a few months ago:
          http://www.museumcam.org/
          I have spent many hours visiting this site and noting forms, examples
          and indigenous terms of reference. I'm certain you will find it both
          interesting and helpful in revealing more to you about the piece
          which you have queried.

          I will keep my eyes open -- at home and beyond -- for examples that
          might be helpful in ascertaining the origins of this particular piece
          as well and to give you more possibly related works with which to
          compare yours.

          Lee



          Musso Collection

          Bamileke King's Throne (circa. Early 19th Century)
          Provenance:
          Annie Kadji – Doula, Cameroon (a Bamileke royal)
          The stool belonged to Mrs. Annie Kadji's grandfather who was a
          Bamileke ruler.

          Bamileke Arts of the Royal Treasuries

          By surrounding himself with elaborate and sometimes massive visual
          displays, the King declared his economic, socio-political and
          religious authority. These elaborate items constituted the royal
          treasury (textiles, clothing, portable objects, furnishings,
          sculpture and masquerades.) In order to create this treasury, the
          King would bring together a great number of artists, the best of whom
          could be rewarded with noble status for his services. Perhaps the
          most significant status symbol in the Cameroon grasslands is the
          carved stool. A typical grasslands stool has a ringed base, a
          central and often cylindrical support section and a disc shaped
          seat. Nearly everyone in the area owns a stool, however humble. The
          most impressive stools are carved for the king, serving as thrones.
          The artists were lavish with considerable inventiveness on royal
          thrones, embellishing them with figures and often adorning them with
          beads.
          Royal thrones are believed to receive life force from their owners.
          Thus on the death of a king, his throne 'dies' as well, often buried
          with him or left exposed to the elements to decay. Some thrones are
          given away to visiting dignitaries. These thrones are nearly never
          handed down, a king would rather soon after his coronation, order the
          creation of a new stool, specifying the motifs to be associated with
          his reign.
          Before the thrones are introduced into the palace, they are
          consecrated in ceremonies that transform the from bead decorated
          carvings to powerful pieces of regalia. In these ceremonies of
          installation, the new throne is taken into the room where relics of
          past kings are stored and smeared with libations on the inside. Once
          a throne had passed through a ceremony, only high-ranking retainers
          were permitted to touch the throne, touching of a power-laden object
          by someone who was not considered 'high-ranking' was frowned upon and
          believed dangerous.

          More on the Bamileke

          The Bamileke tribe was originally from an area to the north known as
          Mbam. In the 17th century traders moved southward and are currently
          in the grasslands of western Cameroon. Today their population
          consists of about eight million people. Although the Bamileke are
          primarily farmers, they are also hunters and traders. Women are
          responsible for planting and harvesting due to the belief that women
          make the soil more fruitful. The major crops grown are yams, peanuts,
          and maize. The men in the tribe help with clearing the land and
          hunting.
          The Bamileke tribe worships a supreme god and their ancestors.
          Ancestral spirits are embodied in the skulls of deceased ancestors.
          Skulls of ancestors are kept to give the spirits a place to reside to
          prevent them from causing trouble for the family. If a skull is not
          kept a ceremony must be done to compensate.
          The Bamileke tribe is governed by a village chief who is supported by
          a council of elders. In the past, the chief was believed to have
          supernatural powers that allowed him to turn into an animal
          (elephant, buffalo, or leopard). The chief is responsible for the
          protection of his people, dispensing supreme justice, and ensuring
          the fertility of the crops and fields.
        • RAND
          Tony, Lee gave you some good advice. I have a page on my website on stools from Cameroon with quite a few examples from a few museums. The dates states on the
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 12, 2005
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            Tony,
            Lee gave you some good advice.
             
            I have a page on my website on stools from Cameroon with quite a few examples from a few museums. The dates states on the stools are 19th and early 20th century and some of the examples do not appear to have much age if you just looked at the stool without the information.
             
            I have a few books on beaded Cameroon art that show examples of stools that are beaded and quite old (early 1900's) but I would have never guessed it from the photographs. The style of yours is a little different than examples I have seen, but that may or may not mean anything. It is hard to judge anything from a photo and tell the age of it in my opinion. I would say take Lee's advice and if you are so inclined, find an authority and run it by them.
             
            Maybe David Norden is right and it is a more contemporary work, but if you look at the examples on my page linked below you will also see that it is hard to tell the age of the pieces from just looking at them, they also almost completely lack signs of age. Certain objects were used differently than others and don't develop the same type of visible age like objects that were handled every day or kept in smokey places or shrines. Objects in the royal treasuries of Cameroon rulers were often not handled much and thus often times did not show the signs of age that you would normally think of an item from the early 1900's.  These stools are also made for the Western Market as David states, and you will see quite a few of them around.
             
            I would go back to the source as Lee suggests and see what additional information you can get. I'm not an expert on stools from Cameroon so I won't make any judgments on your piece as far as age or authenticity or value.
             
             
            Here is the link to the page on my site with additional examples, I will put some more on there from a few books in the next few days or so.
             
            RAND
            www.randafricanart.com

            "David Norden african-antiques.com" <david@...> wrote:

            Dear ,

            Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the carving.
             
            Best regards,
             
            David Norden
            Sint Katelijnevest 27 B2000 Antwerpen.
            Belgium
                      Tel.: +32 (0)3 227.35.40   

             

            -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
            Van: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Namens musso tony
            Verzonden: zaterdag 12 november 2005 22:42
            Aan: african_arts@yahoogroups.com
            Onderwerp: [African_Arts] Fwd: 4 pictures for you

            Hello everyone,  I picked up this piece recently and I am trying to get opinions and general valuation of it.  Attached is a summary also.  It weighs about 80 pounds and is about 30 inches tall and about 33 inches in diameter on top.  All the best,  Tony

            Note: forwarded message attached.
          • musso tony
            Hello, Thanks for insight from everyone and especially Lee for the amazing information to follow up. I will get more info as you suggested. All the best,
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 12, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello,  Thanks for insight from everyone and especially Lee for the amazing information to follow up.  I will get more info as you suggested.  All the best,  Tony

              leerubinstein <LRubinstein@...> wrote:
              Tony:

              Thanks for posting the images of your Bamileke "throne" or stool.  I
              have loaded the images into the "Photos" section under the
              title "MussoBamileke" for those who do not receive individual
              postings or have difficulty accessing the images.  For the same
              reason I have pasted your information sheet which you included below
              within this message.

              Bamileke beadwork was one of the first major (sub-)traditions that
              helped to create my interest in African traditional arts.  Although I
              have done a lot of reading and research, I am still working to
              develop the tools I think are necessary to assess the origins and
              authenticity of individual examples.  One of the best sources of
              information would be the person from whom you acquired the stool. She
              would be the best place to start to inquire about the history, place
              of origin and any related information about the piece. It would be
              interesting to hear any information, history and stories that she
              might share...

              Then, a search for any documentation of the object in situ would help
              to verify, support, clarify the information that you are able to
              receive from Ms. Kadji. Linking a specific object to specific places
              and times is a difficult and fascinating (not to mention sometimes
              endless) pursuit, but it will always benefit you by revealing
              information -- both relevant and tangential -- that will enhance your
              interest, appreciation, passion, etc., and help you to develop your
              knowledge and assessment resources. 

              One helpful resource in this regard is this Bibliography created by
              the Smithsonian as part of the "Beaded Splendor" exhibition web-
              site.  Among the books listed is a relevant work -- one which I would
              love to see --  but it is extremely rare and costly.  The work is
              Christraud M. Geary's "Things of the Palace," a catalogue of the
              Foumban chefferie royal collection.  Dr. Geary has done extensive
              research and writing on Bamileke royal traditions and on photography
              in Africa among other specializations and has curated the Eliot
              Elisofon Photographic Archives at the Smithsonian.  She now serves as
              the Curator of the African Ccollection at the Museum of Fine Arts
              (MFA) in Boston -- which is anchored by the recent gift/loan of works
              from the William and Bertha Teel collection. 

              The link to the Bibliography:
              http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/migrations/beads/beadread.html

              In the absence of the Geary work, another helpful link is a link to a
              site which features four of the museums IN the Cameroon Grasslands, a
              link which Rand posted a few months ago: 
              http://www.museumcam.org/
              I have spent many hours visiting this site and noting forms, examples
              and indigenous terms of reference.  I'm certain you will find it both
              interesting and helpful in revealing more to you about the piece
              which you have queried. 

              I will keep my eyes open -- at home and beyond -- for examples that
              might be helpful in ascertaining the origins of this particular piece
              as well and to give you more possibly related works with which to
              compare yours. 

              Lee



              Musso Collection

              Bamileke King's Throne (circa. Early 19th Century)
              Provenance:
              Annie Kadji – Doula, Cameroon (a Bamileke royal)
              The stool belonged to Mrs. Annie Kadji's grandfather who was a
              Bamileke ruler.

              Bamileke Arts of the Royal Treasuries

              By surrounding himself with elaborate and sometimes massive visual
              displays, the King declared his economic, socio-political and
              religious authority. These elaborate items constituted the royal
              treasury (textiles, clothing, portable objects, furnishings,
              sculpture and masquerades.) In order to create this treasury, the
              King would bring together a great number of artists, the best of whom
              could be rewarded with noble status for his services. Perhaps the
              most significant status symbol in the Cameroon grasslands is the
              carved stool.  A typical grasslands stool has a ringed base, a
              central and often cylindrical support section and a disc shaped
              seat.  Nearly everyone in the area owns a stool, however humble.  The
              most impressive stools are carved for the king, serving as thrones.
              The artists were lavish with considerable inventiveness on royal
              thrones, embellishing them with figures and often adorning them with
              beads.
              Royal thrones are believed to receive life force from their owners. 
              Thus on the death of a king, his throne 'dies' as well, often buried
              with him or left exposed to the elements to decay.  Some thrones are
              given away to visiting dignitaries.  These thrones are nearly never
              handed down, a king would rather soon after his coronation, order the
              creation of a new stool, specifying the motifs to be associated with
              his reign.
              Before the thrones are introduced into the palace, they are
              consecrated in ceremonies that transform the from bead decorated
              carvings to powerful pieces of regalia.  In these ceremonies of
              installation, the new throne is taken into the room where relics of
              past kings are stored and smeared with libations on the inside.  Once
              a throne had passed through a ceremony, only high-ranking retainers
              were permitted to touch the throne, touching of a power-laden object
              by someone who was not considered 'high-ranking' was frowned upon and
              believed dangerous.

              More on the Bamileke

              The Bamileke tribe was originally from an area to the north known as
              Mbam. In the 17th century traders moved southward and are currently
              in the grasslands of western Cameroon. Today their population
              consists of about eight million people. Although the Bamileke are
              primarily farmers, they are also hunters and traders. Women are
              responsible for planting and harvesting due to the belief that women
              make the soil more fruitful. The major crops grown are yams, peanuts,
              and maize. The men in the tribe help with clearing the land and
              hunting.
              The Bamileke tribe worships a supreme god and their ancestors.
              Ancestral spirits are embodied in the skulls of deceased ancestors.
              Skulls of ancestors are kept to give the spirits a place to reside to
              prevent them from causing trouble for the family. If a skull is not
              kept a ceremony must be done to compensate.
              The Bamileke tribe is governed by a village chief who is supported by
              a council of elders. In the past, the chief was believed to have
              supernatural powers that allowed him to turn into an animal
              (elephant, buffalo, or leopard). The chief is responsible for the
              protection of his people, dispensing supreme justice, and ensuring
              the fertility of the crops and fields. 









              Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
            • LRubinstein@post.harvard.edu
              Tony: I located more specific and extremely interesting information that you might wish to explore in reference to your beaded stool, or throne, from the
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 13, 2005
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                Tony:
                 
                I located more specific and extremely interesting information that you might wish to explore in reference to your beaded stool, or throne, from the Cameroon Grasslands. Dr. Geary wrote an article entitled "Art, Politics, and the Transformation of Meaning:  Bamum Art in the Twentieth Century," in a collection of essays which she co-edited in 1996 with Mary Jo Arnoldi and Kris L. Hardin (Bloomington:  Indiana University Press) [ISBN 0-253-21037-2].  The article is a detailed history of a group of beaded thrones from the Bamum and a discussion of the historical and continued production of the canonical examples of this form -- now in Berlin, Paris and Foumban -- as well as an analysis of the meanings attached to them both within 20th century Bamum society and in the relationship between the Bamum and the former European colonial powers -- Germany, Great Britain and France -- in the region. 
                 
                It is not so esoteric as it sounds and will most assuredly give you a good historical perspective from which to consider the authenticity and value of the piece you presented.  This is a good companion article to her The Voyage of King Njoya's Gift:  A Beaded Sculpture from the Bamum Kingdom, Cameroon in the National Museum of African Art. (Washington, DC:  National Museum of African Art, 1994) and her article, "Bamum Thrones and Stools" in African Arts Volume 14:  No. 4, pp. 32-43.  Other more general works on the Grasslands Arts include books and articles by Paul Gebauer and Tamara Northern.
                 
                Lee
              • Rand African Art
                For those who are interested in follow ups on the beaded stool from Cameroon that Tony posted, I have just added an example of an interesting beaded wooden
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 16, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  For those who are interested in follow ups on the beaded stool from Cameroon that Tony posted, I have just added an example of an interesting beaded wooden royal commemorative object from the Baham of Cameroon to the Cameroon stools and thrones page on my website, it is the last example on the page and there are 3 photos that are scanned from the auction catalog. You can click on the images to see the very large versions of the scans.
                   
                  From what I can gather, it is early 20th century. It was offered at Sotheby's a couple of years ago. What is interesting about the object is that the name of the carver is known, which is usually not the case in "most" African art objects.
                   
                  At first glance I would assume that the work is a more contemporary piece, there are areas where beads are missing, but at first glance it appears (to me) not very old.
                   
                  http://www.randafricanart.com/Cameroon_stool.html
                  RAND
                  RAND <rand@...> wrote:
                  Tony,
                  Lee gave you some good advice.
                   
                  I have a page on my website on stools from Cameroon with quite a few examples from a few museums. The dates states on the stools are 19th and early 20th century and some of the examples do not appear to have much age if you just looked at the stool without the information.
                   
                  I have a few books on beaded Cameroon art that show examples of stools that are beaded and quite old (early 1900's) but I would have never guessed it from the photographs. The style of yours is a little different than examples I have seen, but that may or may not mean anything. It is hard to judge anything from a photo and tell the age of it in my opinion. I would say take Lee's advice and if you are so inclined, find an authority and run it by them.
                   
                  Maybe David Norden is right and it is a more contemporary work, but if you look at the examples on my page linked below you will also see that it is hard to tell the age of the pieces from just looking at them, they also almost completely lack signs of age. Certain objects were used differently than others and don't develop the same type of visible age like objects that were handled every day or kept in smokey places or shrines. Objects in the royal treasuries of Cameroon rulers were often not handled much and thus often times did not show the signs of age that you would normally think of an item from the early 1900's.  These stools are also made for the Western Market as David states, and you will see quite a few of them around.
                   
                  I would go back to the source as Lee suggests and see what additional information you can get. I'm not an expert on stools from Cameroon so I won't make any judgments on your piece as far as age or authenticity or value.
                   
                   
                  Here is the link to the page on my site with additional examples, I will put some more on there from a few books in the next few days or so.
                   
                  RAND
                  www.randafricanart.com

                  "David Norden african-antiques.com" <david@...> wrote:
                  Dear ,
                  Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the carving.
                   
                  Best regards,
                   
                  David Norden
                  Sint Katelijnevest 27 B2000 Antwerpen.
                  Belgium
                            Tel.: +32 (0)3 227.35.40   
                   
                  -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                  Van: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Namens musso tony
                  Verzonden: zaterdag 12 november 2005 22:42
                  Aan: african_arts@yahoogroups.com
                  Onderwerp: [African_Arts] Fwd: 4 pictures for you

                  Hello everyone,  I picked up this piece recently and I am trying to get opinions and general valuation of it.  Attached is a summary also.  It weighs about 80 pounds and is about 30 inches tall and about 33 inches in diameter on top.  All the best,  Tony

                  Note: forwarded message attached.

                • Rand African Art
                  When I stated: At first glance I would assume that the work is a more contemporary piece, there are areas where beads are missing, but at first glance it
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 16, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    When I stated:
                    At first glance I would assume that the work is a more contemporary piece, there are areas where beads are missing, but at first glance it appears (to me) not very old.
                     
                    What I was trying to convey is that from a "photo" it is sometimes hard to tell the age of some objects, and as I stated in a previous post some objects were not used in the way others were and they will show age differently.
                     
                    The last object on my stools page that I mentioned in my posting is early 20th century and it probably appears as a more "contemporary" design to a lot of us. The point I was trying to get across is that Tony's stool definitely has the possibility of being early/mid 20th century as well. It is hard for us to judge an item from a photograph and although I haven't gotten around to adding more examples to back it up, a lot of beaded objects from Cameroon have a much more 'animated', for lack of a better word, look to them and the styles differ greatly.
                     
                    Tony has some information from the person he bought it from that he presented to us and even though some may be skeptical about the age being 19th century, there is a good possibility that the stool is early to mid 20th century.

                    I will get around to adding some additional examples soon.
                    RAND
                    Rand African Art <rand@...> wrote:
                    For those who are interested in follow ups on the beaded stool from Cameroon that Tony posted, I have just added an example of an interesting beaded wooden royal commemorative object from the Baham of Cameroon to the Cameroon stools and thrones page on my website, it is the last example on the page and there are 3 photos that are scanned from the auction catalog. You can click on the images to see the very large versions of the scans.
                     
                    From what I can gather, it is early 20th century. It was offered at Sotheby's a couple of years ago. What is interesting about the object is that the name of the carver is known, which is usually not the case in "most" African art objects.
                     
                    At first glance I would assume that the work is a more contemporary piece, there are areas where beads are missing, but at first glance it appears (to me) not very old.
                     
                    http://www.randafricanart.com/Cameroon_stool.html
                    RAND
                    RAND <rand@...> wrote:
                    Tony,
                    Lee gave you some good advice.
                     
                    I have a page on my website on stools from Cameroon with quite a few examples from a few museums. The dates states on the stools are 19th and early 20th century and some of the examples do not appear to have much age if you just looked at the stool without the information.
                     
                    I have a few books on beaded Cameroon art that show examples of stools that are beaded and quite old (early 1900's) but I would have never guessed it from the photographs. The style of yours is a little different than examples I have seen, but that may or may not mean anything. It is hard to judge anything from a photo and tell the age of it in my opinion. I would say take Lee's advice and if you are so inclined, find an authority and run it by them.
                     
                    Maybe David Norden is right and it is a more contemporary work, but if you look at the examples on my page linked below you will also see that it is hard to tell the age of the pieces from just looking at them, they also almost completely lack signs of age. Certain objects were used differently than others and don't develop the same type of visible age like objects that were handled every day or kept in smokey places or shrines. Objects in the royal treasuries of Cameroon rulers were often not handled much and thus often times did not show the signs of age that you would normally think of an item from the early 1900's.  These stools are also made for the Western Market as David states, and you will see quite a few of them around.
                     
                    I would go back to the source as Lee suggests and see what additional information you can get. I'm not an expert on stools from Cameroon so I won't make any judgments on your piece as far as age or authenticity or value.
                     
                     
                    Here is the link to the page on my site with additional examples, I will put some more on there from a few books in the next few days or so.
                     
                    RAND
                    www.randafricanart.com

                    "David Norden african-antiques.com" <david@...> wrote:
                    Dear ,
                    Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the carving.
                     
                    Best regards,
                     
                    David Norden
                    Sint Katelijnevest 27 B2000 Antwerpen.
                    Belgium
                              Tel.: +32 (0)3 227.35.40   
                     
                    -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                    Van: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Namens musso tony
                    Verzonden: zaterdag 12 november 2005 22:42
                    Aan: african_arts@yahoogroups.com
                    Onderwerp: [African_Arts] Fwd: 4 pictures for you

                    Hello everyone,  I picked up this piece recently and I am trying to get opinions and general valuation of it.  Attached is a summary also.  It weighs about 80 pounds and is about 30 inches tall and about 33 inches in diameter on top.  All the best,  Tony

                    Note: forwarded message attached.


                  • Rand African Art
                    David Norden stated about a stool that was posted to the group: Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with authentic ancient ethnic art, but
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 23, 2005
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                      David Norden stated about a stool that was posted to the group:
                      "Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the carving"
                       
                      Photos of the stool are in the folder in the Photos section called:
                      MussoBam... (MussoBamileke)
                       
                      I have had this stool in the back of my mind, and while I was looking through some books today I came across the example I was looking for. It is a stool that was given to a German officer by King Njoya back in 1905 and is now in the Musee Barbier-Meuller.
                       
                      I have placed the example of that stool on the page on my website (linked below). The image of the stool that I mentioned above is the first image on the page and Tony's stool is the second image on the page.
                       
                       
                      I know that some will still be skeptical because it is often thought "If it looks like the one in the book then it must be a fake". It does show that the form of Tony's stool is not contemporary and the beads and cowry shells on the stool from 1905 and Tony's stool look very similar in appearance regarding the look of age.
                       
                      I know that Tony bought his from a respected source, there may have been a typo on the sheet and it should have probably said early 20th Century but I am sure the provenance is verifiable.
                       
                      Maybe this will change some people's minds? Maybe it won't? 
                      RAND

                      RAND <rand@...> wrote:
                      Tony,
                      Lee gave you some good advice.
                       
                      I have a page on my website on stools from Cameroon with quite a few examples from a few museums. The dates states on the stools are 19th and early 20th century and some of the examples do not appear to have much age if you just looked at the stool without the information.
                       
                      I have a few books on beaded Cameroon art that show examples of stools that are beaded and quite old (early 1900's) but I would have never guessed it from the photographs. The style of yours is a little different than examples I have seen, but that may or may not mean anything. It is hard to judge anything from a photo and tell the age of it in my opinion. I would say take Lee's advice and if you are so inclined, find an authority and run it by them.
                       
                      Maybe David Norden is right and it is a more contemporary work, but if you look at the examples on my page linked below you will also see that it is hard to tell the age of the pieces from just looking at them, they also almost completely lack signs of age. Certain objects were used differently than others and don't develop the same type of visible age like objects that were handled every day or kept in smokey places or shrines. Objects in the royal treasuries of Cameroon rulers were often not handled much and thus often times did not show the signs of age that you would normally think of an item from the early 1900's.  These stools are also made for the Western Market as David states, and you will see quite a few of them around.
                       
                      I would go back to the source as Lee suggests and see what additional information you can get. I'm not an expert on stools from Cameroon so I won't make any judgments on your piece as far as age or authenticity or value.
                       
                       
                      Here is the link to the page on my site with additional examples, I will put some more on there from a few books in the next few days or so.
                       
                      RAND
                      www.randafricanart.com

                      "David Norden african-antiques.com" <david@...> wrote:
                      Dear ,
                      Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the carving.
                       
                      Best regards,
                       
                      David Norden
                      Sint Katelijnevest 27 B2000 Antwerpen.
                      Belgium
                                Tel.: +32 (0)3 227.35.40   
                       
                      -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                      Van: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Namens musso tony
                      Verzonden: zaterdag 12 november 2005 22:42
                      Aan: african_arts@yahoogroups.com
                      Onderwerp: [African_Arts] Fwd: 4 pictures for you

                      Hello everyone,  I picked up this piece recently and I am trying to get opinions and general valuation of it.  Attached is a summary also.  It weighs about 80 pounds and is about 30 inches tall and about 33 inches in diameter on top.  All the best,  Tony

                      Note: forwarded message attached.



                      www.randafricanart.com
                    • Craig Lewis
                      Dear Rand, very interesting post, I think that in situations like this the provenance would need to be verified. Early photographs of the piece would be the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 23, 2005
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                        Dear Rand,
                        very interesting post, I think that in situations like this the
                        provenance would need to be verified. Early photographs of the piece
                        would be the best or a letter of provenance from the previous owner.
                        I would say that the provenance would have to be pretty believable
                        and in my eyes there is a difference in quality in the two pieces.
                        Good detective work though and any further details I'm sure would be
                        very interesting.
                        Cheers
                        Craig

                        --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Rand African Art <rand@r...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > David Norden stated about a stool that was posted to the group:
                        > "Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with
                        authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it
                        could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but
                        was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age
                        on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the
                        carving"
                        >
                        > Photos of the stool are in the folder in the Photos section
                        called:
                        > MussoBam... (MussoBamileke)
                        >
                        > I have had this stool in the back of my mind, and while I was
                        looking through some books today I came across the example I was
                        looking for. It is a stool that was given to a German officer by King
                        Njoya back in 1905 and is now in the Musee Barbier-Meuller.
                        >
                        > I have placed the example of that stool on the page on my website
                        (linked below). The image of the stool that I mentioned above is the
                        first image on the page and Tony's stool is the second image on the
                        page.
                        >
                        > http://www.randafricanart.com/Cameroon_stool.html
                        >
                        > I know that some will still be skeptical because it is often
                        thought "If it looks like the one in the book then it must be a
                        fake". It does show that the form of Tony's stool is not contemporary
                        and the beads and cowry shells on the stool from 1905 and Tony's
                        stool look very similar in appearance regarding the look of age.
                        >
                        > I know that Tony bought his from a respected source, there may
                        have been a typo on the sheet and it should have probably said early
                        20th Century but I am sure the provenance is verifiable.
                        >
                        > Maybe this will change some people's minds? Maybe it won't?
                        > RAND
                        >
                        > RAND <rand@r...> wrote:
                        > Tony,
                        > Lee gave you some good advice.
                        >
                        > I have a page on my website on stools from Cameroon with quite a
                        few examples from a few museums. The dates states on the stools are
                        19th and early 20th century and some of the examples do not appear to
                        have much age if you just looked at the stool without the information.
                        >
                        > I have a few books on beaded Cameroon art that show examples of
                        stools that are beaded and quite old (early 1900's) but I would have
                        never guessed it from the photographs. The style of yours is a little
                        different than examples I have seen, but that may or may not mean
                        anything. It is hard to judge anything from a photo and tell the age
                        of it in my opinion. I would say take Lee's advice and if you are so
                        inclined, find an authority and run it by them.
                        >
                        > Maybe David Norden is right and it is a more contemporary work,
                        but if you look at the examples on my page linked below you will also
                        see that it is hard to tell the age of the pieces from just looking
                        at them, they also almost completely lack signs of age. Certain
                        objects were used differently than others and don't develop the same
                        type of visible age like objects that were handled every day or kept
                        in smokey places or shrines. Objects in the royal treasuries of
                        Cameroon rulers were often not handled much and thus often times did
                        not show the signs of age that you would normally think of an item
                        from the early 1900's. These stools are also made for the Western
                        Market as David states, and you will see quite a few of them around.
                        >
                        > I would go back to the source as Lee suggests and see what
                        additional information you can get. I'm not an expert on stools from
                        Cameroon so I won't make any judgments on your piece as far as age or
                        authenticity or value.
                        >
                        >
                        > Here is the link to the page on my site with additional examples,
                        I will put some more on there from a few books in the next few days
                        or so.
                        > http://www.randafricanart.com/Cameroon_stool.html
                        >
                        > RAND
                        > www.randafricanart.com
                        >
                        > "David Norden african-antiques.com" <david@a...> wrote:
                        > Dear ,
                        > Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with
                        authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it
                        could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but
                        was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age
                        on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the
                        carving.
                        >
                        > Best regards,
                        >
                        > David Norden
                        > Sint Katelijnevest 27 B2000 Antwerpen.
                        > Belgium Tel.: +32 (0)3 227.35.40
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                        > Van: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Namens musso tony
                        > Verzonden: zaterdag 12 november 2005 22:42
                        > Aan: african_arts@yahoogroups.com
                        > Onderwerp: [African_Arts] Fwd: 4 pictures for you
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello everyone, I picked up this piece recently and I am
                        trying to get opinions and general valuation of it. Attached is a
                        summary also. It weighs about 80 pounds and is about 30 inches tall
                        and about 33 inches in diameter on top. All the best, Tony
                        >
                        > Note: forwarded message attached.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        > Visit your group "African_Arts" on the web.
                        >
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                        >
                      • John Monroe
                        I agree absolutely about the quality difference. While Tony s stool looks believable, and is quite charming, it is not a stone-cold masterwork like the
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 24, 2005
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                          I agree absolutely about the quality difference. While Tony's stool looks
                          believable, and is quite charming, it is not a stone-cold masterwork like the
                          Barbier-Mueller example. One needs only compare the proportions of the figures
                          and the expressivity of the faces. My guess is that David's right in saying
                          it's not a nineteenth-century piece: if you compare Bamum thrones and other
                          carvings, you can see a definite decline in expressivity and finesse between
                          the late 19th century and the 20th. To make an analogy to Western art, it's
                          like the difference between a great Renaissance genius like Titian and a
                          respected but fundamentally non-great painter of the seventeenth century like
                          Giordano. Both produce esthetically pleasing works, but one's got a magic the
                          other lacks.

                          That's not to say that the stool isn't authentic, or esthetically worthwhile on
                          its own terms. Just because Giordano is a minor painter doesn't mean a work by
                          him would not be a pleasure to own and enjoy. Could Tony's stool be a copy of
                          the one given to the officer in 1905? Or perhaps a copy of a copy, made in the
                          20s or so? Answering that question would depend on the documentation that
                          backs up the provenance. In the absence of hard evidence, both the "yes" and
                          the "no" responses strike me as credible.

                          John Monroe


                          > <html><body>
                          >
                          >
                          > <tt>
                          > Dear Rand,<BR>
                          > very interesting post, I think that in situations like this the <BR>
                          > provenance would need to be verified. Early photographs of the piece <BR>
                          > would be the best or a letter of provenance from the previous owner. <BR>
                          > I would say that the provenance would have to be pretty believable <BR>
                          > and in my eyes there is a difference in quality in the two pieces.<BR>
                          > Good detective work though and any further details I'm sure would be <BR>
                          > very interesting.<BR>
                          > Cheers<BR>
                          > Craig<BR>
                          > <BR>
                          > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Rand African Art <rand@r...> <BR>
                          > wrote:<BR>
                          > ><BR>
                          > >�� David Norden stated about a stool that was posted to the group:<BR>
                          > >�� "Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with <BR>
                          > authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it <BR>
                          > could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but <BR>
                          > was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age <BR>
                          > on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the <BR>
                          > carving"<BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� Photos of the stool are in the folder in the Photos section <BR>
                          > called:<BR>
                          > >�� MussoBam... (MussoBamileke)<BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� I have had this stool in the back of my mind, and while I was <BR>
                          > looking through some books today I came across the example I was <BR>
                          > looking for. It is a stool that was given to a German officer by King <BR>
                          > Njoya back in 1905 and is now in the Musee Barbier-Meuller. <BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� I have placed the example of that stool on the page on my website <BR>
                          > (linked below). The image of the stool that I mentioned above is the <BR>
                          > first image on the page and Tony's stool is the second image on the <BR>
                          > page. <BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� <a
                          href="http://www.randafricanart.com/Cameroon_stool.html">http://www.randafricana
                          rt.com/Cameroon_stool.html</a><BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� I know that some will still be skeptical because it is often <BR>
                          > thought "If it looks like the one in the book then it must be a <BR>
                          > fake". It does show that the form of Tony's stool is not contemporary <BR>
                          > and the beads and cowry shells on the stool from 1905 and Tony's <BR>
                          > stool look very similar in appearance regarding the look of age. <BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� I know that Tony bought his from a respected source, there may <BR>
                          > have been a typo on the sheet and it should have probably said early <BR>
                          > 20th Century but I am sure the provenance is verifiable.<BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� Maybe this will change some people's minds? Maybe it won't?� <BR>
                          > >�� RAND<BR>
                          > >�� <BR>
                          > > RAND <rand@r...> wrote:<BR>
                          > >���������� Tony,<BR>
                          > >�� Lee gave you some good advice.<BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� I have a page on my website on stools from Cameroon with quite a <BR>
                          > few examples from a few museums. The dates states on the stools are <BR>
                          > 19th and early 20th century and some of the examples do not appear to <BR>
                          > have much age if you just looked at the stool without the information.<BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� I have a few books on beaded Cameroon art that show examples of <BR>
                          > stools that are beaded and quite old (early 1900's) but I would have <BR>
                          > never guessed it from the photographs. The style of yours is a little <BR>
                          > different than examples I have seen, but that may or may not mean <BR>
                          > anything. It is hard to judge anything from a photo and tell the age <BR>
                          > of it in my opinion. I would say take Lee's advice and if you are so <BR>
                          > inclined, find an authority and run it by them. <BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� Maybe David Norden is right and it is a more contemporary work, <BR>
                          > but if you look at the examples on my page linked below you will also <BR>
                          > see that it is hard to tell the age of the pieces from just looking <BR>
                          > at them, they also almost completely lack signs of age. Certain <BR>
                          > objects were used differently than others and don't develop the same <BR>
                          > type of visible age like objects that were handled every day or kept <BR>
                          > in smokey places or shrines. Objects in the royal treasuries of <BR>
                          > Cameroon rulers were often not handled much and thus often times did <BR>
                          > not show the signs of age that you would normally think of an item <BR>
                          > from the early 1900's.� These stools are also made for the Western <BR>
                          > Market as David states, and you will see quite a few of them around. <BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� I would go back to the source as Lee suggests and see what <BR>
                          > additional information you can get. I'm not an expert on stools from <BR>
                          > Cameroon so I won't make any judgments on your piece as far as age or <BR>
                          > authenticity or value.<BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� Here is the link to the page on my site with additional examples, <BR>
                          > I will put some more on there from a few books in the next few days <BR>
                          > or so.<BR>
                          > >�� <a
                          href="http://www.randafricanart.com/Cameroon_stool.html">http://www.randafricana
                          rt.com/Cameroon_stool.html</a><BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� RAND<BR>
                          > >�� www.randafricanart.com <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > "David Norden african-antiques.com" <david@a...> wrote:<BR>
                          > >�������� Dear ,<BR>
                          > >���� Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with <BR>
                          > authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it <BR>
                          > could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but <BR>
                          > was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age <BR>
                          > on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the <BR>
                          > carving.<BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� Best regards,<BR>
                          > >��� <BR>
                          > >�� David Norden<BR>
                          > >�� Sint Katelijnevest 27 B2000 Antwerpen.<BR>
                          > > Belgium���������� Tel.: +32 (0)3 227.35.40�� <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > >���� <BR>
                          > >���� <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > >���� <BR>
                          > >�� -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----<BR>
                          > > Van: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com <BR>
                          > [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Namens musso tony<BR>
                          > > Verzonden: zaterdag 12 november 2005 22:42<BR>
                          > > Aan: african_arts@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                          > > Onderwerp: [African_Arts] Fwd: 4 pictures for you<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > >���� Hello everyone,� I picked up this piece recently and I am <BR>
                          > trying to get opinions and general valuation of it.� Attached is a <BR>
                          > summary also.� It weighs about 80 pounds and is about 30 inches tall <BR>
                          > and about 33 inches in diameter on top.� All the best,� Tony<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > Note: forwarded message attached.<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > >���� <BR>
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                        • musso tony
                          Hello, Thanks for this exceptional information on the relevant stools. I will take some better pictures of the stool I have and get it posted for a closer
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 26, 2005
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                            Hello,  Thanks for this exceptional information on the relevant stools.  I will take some better pictures of the stool I have and get it posted for a closer look.  All the best,  Tony Musso

                            Rand African Art <rand@...> wrote:
                            For those who are interested in follow ups on the beaded stool from Cameroon that Tony posted, I have just added an example of an interesting beaded wooden royal commemorative object from the Baham of Cameroon to the Cameroon stools and thrones page on my website, it is the last example on the page and there are 3 photos that are scanned from the auction catalog. You can click on the images to see the very large versions of the scans.
                             
                            From what I can gather, it is early 20th century. It was offered at Sotheby's a couple of years ago. What is interesting about the object is that the name of the carver is known, which is usually not the case in "most" African art objects.
                             
                            At first glance I would assume that the work is a more contemporary piece, there are areas where beads are missing, but at first glance it appears (to me) not very old.
                             
                            http://www.randafricanart.com/Cameroon_stool.html
                            RAND
                            RAND <rand@...> wrote:
                            Tony,
                            Lee gave you some good advice.
                             
                            I have a page on my website on stools from Cameroon with quite a few examples from a few museums. The dates states on the stools are 19th and early 20th century and some of the examples do not appear to have much age if you just looked at the stool without the information.
                             
                            I have a few books on beaded Cameroon art that show examples of stools that are beaded and quite old (early 1900's) but I would have never guessed it from the photographs. The style of yours is a little different than examples I have seen, but that may or may not mean anything. It is hard to judge anything from a photo and tell the age of it in my opinion. I would say take Lee's advice and if you are so inclined, find an authority and run it by them.
                             
                            Maybe David Norden is right and it is a more contemporary work, but if you look at the examples on my page linked below you will also see that it is hard to tell the age of the pieces from just looking at them, they also almost completely lack signs of age. Certain objects were used differently than others and don't develop the same type of visible age like objects that were handled every day or kept in smokey places or shrines. Objects in the royal treasuries of Cameroon rulers were often not handled much and thus often times did not show the signs of age that you would normally think of an item from the early 1900's.  These stools are also made for the Western Market as David states, and you will see quite a few of them around.
                             
                            I would go back to the source as Lee suggests and see what additional information you can get. I'm not an expert on stools from Cameroon so I won't make any judgments on your piece as far as age or authenticity or value.
                             
                             
                            Here is the link to the page on my site with additional examples, I will put some more on there from a few books in the next few days or so.
                             
                            RAND
                            www.randafricanart.com

                            "David Norden african-antiques.com" <david@...> wrote:
                            Dear ,
                            Very nice souvenir (Sorry does not have anything to do with authentic ancient ethnic art, but all with modern art), I think it could have some age but certainly not XIXth century as you state, but was made for the Western market, as the complete lack of signs of age on the cowries and beads show, and the contemporary style of the carving.
                             
                            Best regards,
                             
                            David Norden
                            Sint Katelijnevest 27 B2000 Antwerpen.
                            Belgium
                                      Tel.: +32 (0)3 227.35.40   
                             
                            -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                            Van: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Namens musso tony
                            Verzonden: zaterdag 12 november 2005 22:42
                            Aan: african_arts@yahoogroups.com
                            Onderwerp: [African_Arts] Fwd: 4 pictures for you

                            Hello everyone,  I picked up this piece recently and I am trying to get opinions and general valuation of it.  Attached is a summary also.  It weighs about 80 pounds and is about 30 inches tall and about 33 inches in diameter on top.  All the best,  Tony

                            Note: forwarded message attached.



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