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Re: [African_Arts] Three Intruiging Masks

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  • Joseph Anderson
    They are tourist stuff. Worth whatever you might get. No value to speak of.
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 23, 2012
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      They are tourist stuff. Worth whatever you might get. No value to speak of.


      On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:11 PM, Samuel Nickolas Sinyangwe wrote:

       

      I have collected three masks in my recent travels to Africa and I have questions about them. The first I believe is a replica Marka mask, collected in Cape Town. The second mask is, I think, most appealing but I do not know much about it. Judging by the shape of the eyes and the abstractness of it I believe it is from the Eket tribe of Nigeria. Third mask I found in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and was said to be from Kigoma, Tanzania. Does anybody know how much these masks are worth and whether they are authentic? I am selling all three to the highest bidder.

      Dimensions of the masks are:
      Marka mask - 24 in x 10 in
      Eket mask - 16 in x 12 in
      Kigoma mask - 16 in x 7 in

      They can be viewed here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/album/719485890/pic/list

      YOU CAN ALSO FIND MORE OF MY COLLECTION AT thisisafricashop.com


    • RAND
      Dear thisisafricashop I m questioning your motives in asking your 2 questions. If you are truly interested if the masks are authentic and establishing a
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 23, 2012
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        Dear "thisisafricashop"

        I'm questioning your motives in asking your 2 questions.

        If you are truly interested if the masks are authentic and establishing a value, will you change your descriptions and values of them on your website that you direct us to once you get feedback from people and come to your own conclusion?

        On your website for the Marka mask you state:

        "Authentic" Mask from the Marka tribe of Mali. The mask is handmade from wood and is covered with brass plating."

        In your message to the group you state about that mask that you "believe is a replica Marka mask, collected in Cape Town."

        For the mask you call Eket, you state on your website:

        "Antique" Mask from the Eket tribe of Nigeria. The mask is a beautiful piece of abstract art, blending features of a man and elephant. This mask was purchased from the Ibo many years ago by Njoya Zounedou and has been part of his personal collection. The mask is adorned with a crown of painted feathers"

        For the mask you state is Kigoma, you say on your website:

        "Antique" Tanzanian Mask from Kigoma, an area known for its art and makonde carvings. This mask is at least two generations old and is in extremely good condition"

        You make these statements on your website with a degree of authority. Is this what you were told about the masks, or is this what you believe to be true?

        If you are coming to the group to seek out real answers, then I would applaud you and hope that you would take the information given to you and go back and change the descriptions on your website to represent the masks honestly. If your intention was to direct people to your website for commercial purposes, then that was your only opportunity as we generally don't allow commercially motivated posts as this group is one to help people learn.

        All 3 masks, in my opinion, were made specifically for the collecting market/tourist trade, and despite what you may or may not have been told, they are not old at all. They appear stylistically and by appearance to be recent productions losely based on traditional masks. That is how they should be represented on your website in my opinion. The way you have them listed now is misleading to someone who may not know any better. Maybe you don't know any better yourself and that is why you are asking?

        If you are buying masks like this in Africa, the best thing to do is to first of all not believe any story as to how old they say a mask is or any history behind it. You're going to be given a sales pitch because they're going to assume that you don't know any better. Buy something if you like it at a price you can afford to pay if these are the types of objects you're looking for. The trouble comes when people pass along information that was given to them, and pass it along with authority as if it were true. You're making statements that the masks are "authentic", "antique" and "2 generations old". You're misleading another buyer who doesn't know any better. Maybe this is of concern to you, maybe it isn't?

        As far as value - I state on one of my commercial websites the following:

        "The objects on my website are priced in a way I consider fair
        based on a number of factors including the overall quality,
        age, authenticity, signs of use, elegance, size, and rarity of
        the object as well as the price I paid."

        First you have to take into consideration what you paid for an object when you are trying to resell it.That has to be your baseline. If you aren't an educated buyer then maybe you paid too much for an object in the first place and you'll have a hard time turning it around and selling it at a profit or even recovering your investment. Masks of the quality of the 3 you are asking about would most likely sell for well under $100 on a marketplace like eBay, unless you had someone who really liked one of them aesthetically and was willing to pay more for a decorative object for their house.

        You have to determine what value you place on them based on what you paid for them. They're not authentic in the sense that they were used in a traditional context. They were most likely not made by a person from the tribe that would have traditionally made that type of mask, so you have to ask yourself what you think is fair and see what happens. The important thing of it all is to represent the masks honestly.

        RAND







        --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Anderson <ironjpa@...> wrote:
        >
        > They are tourist stuff. Worth whatever you might get. No value to
        > speak of.
        >
        >
        > On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:11 PM, Samuel Nickolas Sinyangwe wrote:
        >
        > > I have collected three masks in my recent travels to Africa and I
        > > have questions about them. The first I believe is a replica Marka
        > > mask, collected in Cape Town. The second mask is, I think, most
        > > appealing but I do not know much about it. Judging by the shape of
        > > the eyes and the abstractness of it I believe it is from the Eket
        > > tribe of Nigeria. Third mask I found in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and
        > > was said to be from Kigoma, Tanzania. Does anybody know how much
        > > these masks are worth and whether they are authentic? I am selling
        > > all three to the highest bidder.
        > >
        > > Dimensions of the masks are:
        > > Marka mask - 24 in x 10 in
        > > Eket mask - 16 in x 12 in
        > > Kigoma mask - 16 in x 7 in
        > >
        > > They can be viewed here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/
        > > photos/album/719485890/pic/list
        > >
        > > YOU CAN ALSO FIND MORE OF MY COLLECTION AT thisisafricashop.com
        > >
        >
      • Josh Simpson
        Hi Rand - First, I just wanted to say thanks for all your contributions over the years, and also for your two websites.....great repositories of beautiful
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 30, 2012
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          Hi Rand - First, I just wanted to say thanks for all your contributions over the years, and also for your two websites.....great repositories of beautiful images and information!
          Boy, I have to admire your restraint in your response to "thisisafricashop".  You went way beyond the call of duty in assuming good faith on his part.  Your response was very balanced and informative....if not perhaps wasted on him.  I suppose you can never go wrong in assuming good faith in this life....you can always revise your opinion later! :-)
          Regards,
          Josh Simpson


          From: RAND <rand@...>
          To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:23 PM
          Subject: [African_Arts] Re: Three Intruiging Masks

           
          Dear "thisisafricashop"

          I'm questioning your motives in asking your 2 questions.

          If you are truly interested if the masks are authentic and establishing a value, will you change your descriptions and values of them on your website that you direct us to once you get feedback from people and come to your own conclusion?

          On your website for the Marka mask you state:

          "Authentic" Mask from the Marka tribe of Mali. The mask is handmade from wood and is covered with brass plating."

          In your message to the group you state about that mask that you "believe is a replica Marka mask, collected in Cape Town."

          For the mask you call Eket, you state on your website:

          "Antique" Mask from the Eket tribe of Nigeria. The mask is a beautiful piece of abstract art, blending features of a man and elephant. This mask was purchased from the Ibo many years ago by Njoya Zounedou and has been part of his personal collection. The mask is adorned with a crown of painted feathers"

          For the mask you state is Kigoma, you say on your website:

          "Antique" Tanzanian Mask from Kigoma, an area known for its art and makonde carvings. This mask is at least two generations old and is in extremely good condition"

          You make these statements on your website with a degree of authority. Is this what you were told about the masks, or is this what you believe to be true?

          If you are coming to the group to seek out real answers, then I would applaud you and hope that you would take the information given to you and go back and change the descriptions on your website to represent the masks honestly. If your intention was to direct people to your website for commercial purposes, then that was your only opportunity as we generally don't allow commercially motivated posts as this group is one to help people learn.

          All 3 masks, in my opinion, were made specifically for the collecting market/tourist trade, and despite what you may or may not have been told, they are not old at all. They appear stylistically and by appearance to be recent productions losely based on traditional masks. That is how they should be represented on your website in my opinion. The way you have them listed now is misleading to someone who may not know any better. Maybe you don't know any better yourself and that is why you are asking?

          If you are buying masks like this in Africa, the best thing to do is to first of all not believe any story as to how old they say a mask is or any history behind it. You're going to be given a sales pitch because they're going to assume that you don't know any better. Buy something if you like it at a price you can afford to pay if these are the types of objects you're looking for. The trouble comes when people pass along information that was given to them, and pass it along with authority as if it were true. You're making statements that the masks are "authentic", "antique" and "2 generations old". You're misleading another buyer who doesn't know any better. Maybe this is of concern to you, maybe it isn't?

          As far as value - I state on one of my commercial websites the following:

          "The objects on my website are priced in a way I consider fair
          based on a number of factors including the overall quality,
          age, authenticity, signs of use, elegance, size, and rarity of
          the object as well as the price I paid."

          First you have to take into consideration what you paid for an object when you are trying to resell it.That has to be your baseline. If you aren't an educated buyer then maybe you paid too much for an object in the first place and you'll have a hard time turning it around and selling it at a profit or even recovering your investment. Masks of the quality of the 3 you are asking about would most likely sell for well under $100 on a marketplace like eBay, unless you had someone who really liked one of them aesthetically and was willing to pay more for a decorative object for their house.

          You have to determine what value you place on them based on what you paid for them. They're not authentic in the sense that they were used in a traditional context. They were most likely not made by a person from the tribe that would have traditionally made that type of mask, so you have to ask yourself what you think is fair and see what happens. The important thing of it all is to represent the masks honestly.

          RAND

          --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Anderson <ironjpa@...> wrote:
          >
          > They are tourist stuff. Worth whatever you might get. No value to
          > speak of.
          >
          >
          > On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:11 PM, Samuel Nickolas Sinyangwe wrote:
          >
          > > I have collected three masks in my recent travels to Africa and I
          > > have questions about them. The first I believe is a replica Marka
          > > mask, collected in Cape Town. The second mask is, I think, most
          > > appealing but I do not know much about it. Judging by the shape of
          > > the eyes and the abstractness of it I believe it is from the Eket
          > > tribe of Nigeria. Third mask I found in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and
          > > was said to be from Kigoma, Tanzania. Does anybody know how much
          > > these masks are worth and whether they are authentic? I am selling
          > > all three to the highest bidder.
          > >
          > > Dimensions of the masks are:
          > > Marka mask - 24 in x 10 in
          > > Eket mask - 16 in x 12 in
          > > Kigoma mask - 16 in x 7 in
          > >
          > > They can be viewed here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/
          > > photos/album/719485890/pic/list
          > >
          > > YOU CAN ALSO FIND MORE OF MY COLLECTION AT thisisafricashop.com
          > >
          >



        • RAND
          Josh - Thanks, I appreciate that. I haven t been an active participant in the group (steadily) for years now but I am now trying to get back into it and
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 4, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Josh -

            Thanks, I appreciate that.

            I haven't been an active participant in the group (steadily) for years now but I am now trying to get back into it and interact with people again.

            One of the main reasons that Lee and I started this group was to have a "safe" place where people could share ideas and learn. When I was just starting out on my collecting journey I really didn't have a lot of books to reference, or have a lot of people that I could reach out to in order to ask questions to in order to learn more. I joined a group that is out there and didn't find it inviting at all. It wasn't a place that really tolerated people trying to share images and learn like I was trying to do, so we started this group.

            I felt like my response to "thisafricashop" was a little restrained, as I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt even though it was a commercial post in disguise and I knew that.

            I admire and respect people that are interested in learning and are willing to learn and are willing to accept a little constructive criticism. I've accepted a lot of criticism over the years and it has challenged me to really take this seriously and see lots of examples of different objects and really learn and train my eye.

            Part of my learning process has been to keep in mind that if someone asks me a question about something I will try and respond in a thoughtful and informative manner instead of just saying something is a cheap tourist piece and not either explaining why, or providing examples for comparison.

            I've been away from the group for far too long and I'm looking forward to being back and being an active member again.

            RAND

            --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Josh Simpson <joshsimpson_95066@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Rand - First, I just wanted to say thanks for all your contributions over the years, and also for your two websites.....great repositories of beautiful images and information!
            > Boy, I have to admire your restraint in your response to "thisisafricashop".  You went way beyond the call of duty in assuming good faith on his part.  Your response was very balanced and informative....if not perhaps wasted on him.  I suppose you can never go wrong in assuming good faith in this life....you can always revise your opinion later! :-)
            > Regards,
            > Josh Simpson
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: RAND <rand@...>
            > To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:23 PM
            > Subject: [African_Arts] Re: Three Intruiging Masks
            >
            >
            >  
            > Dear "thisisafricashop"
            >
            > I'm questioning your motives in asking your 2 questions.
            >
            > If you are truly interested if the masks are authentic and establishing a value, will you change your descriptions and values of them on your website that you direct us to once you get feedback from people and come to your own conclusion?
            >
            > On your website for the Marka mask you state:
            >
            > "Authentic" Mask from the Marka tribe of Mali. The mask is handmade from wood and is covered with brass plating."
            >
            > In your message to the group you state about that mask that you "believe is a replica Marka mask, collected in Cape Town."
            >
            > For the mask you call Eket, you state on your website:
            >
            > "Antique" Mask from the Eket tribe of Nigeria. The mask is a beautiful piece of abstract art, blending features of a man and elephant. This mask was purchased from the Ibo many years ago by Njoya Zounedou and has been part of his personal collection. The mask is adorned with a crown of painted feathers"
            >
            > For the mask you state is Kigoma, you say on your website:
            >
            > "Antique" Tanzanian Mask from Kigoma, an area known for its art and makonde carvings. This mask is at least two generations old and is in extremely good condition"
            >
            > You make these statements on your website with a degree of authority. Is this what you were told about the masks, or is this what you believe to be true?
            >
            > If you are coming to the group to seek out real answers, then I would applaud you and hope that you would take the information given to you and go back and change the descriptions on your website to represent the masks honestly. If your intention was to direct people to your website for commercial purposes, then that was your only opportunity as we generally don't allow commercially motivated posts as this group is one to help people learn.
            >
            > All 3 masks, in my opinion, were made specifically for the collecting market/tourist trade, and despite what you may or may not have been told, they are not old at all. They appear stylistically and by appearance to be recent productions losely based on traditional masks. That is how they should be represented on your website in my opinion. The way you have them listed now is misleading to someone who may not know any better. Maybe you don't know any better yourself and that is why you are asking?
            >
            > If you are buying masks like this in Africa, the best thing to do is to first of all not believe any story as to how old they say a mask is or any history behind it. You're going to be given a sales pitch because they're going to assume that you don't know any better. Buy something if you like it at a price you can afford to pay if these are the types of objects you're looking for. The trouble comes when people pass along information that was given to them, and pass it along with authority as if it were true. You're making statements that the masks are "authentic", "antique" and "2 generations old". You're misleading another buyer who doesn't know any better. Maybe this is of concern to you, maybe it isn't?
            >
            > As far as value - I state on one of my commercial websites the following:
            >
            > "The objects on my website are priced in a way I consider fair
            > based on a number of factors including the overall quality,
            > age, authenticity, signs of use, elegance, size, and rarity of
            > the object as well as the price I paid."
            >
            > First you have to take into consideration what you paid for an object when you are trying to resell it.That has to be your baseline. If you aren't an educated buyer then maybe you paid too much for an object in the first place and you'll have a hard time turning it around and selling it at a profit or even recovering your investment. Masks of the quality of the 3 you are asking about would most likely sell for well under $100 on a marketplace like eBay, unless you had someone who really liked one of them aesthetically and was willing to pay more for a decorative object for their house.
            >
            > You have to determine what value you place on them based on what you paid for them. They're not authentic in the sense that they were used in a traditional context. They were most likely not made by a person from the tribe that would have traditionally made that type of mask, so you have to ask yourself what you think is fair and see what happens. The important thing of it all is to represent the masks honestly.
            >
            > RAND
            >
            > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Anderson <ironjpa@> wrote:
            > >
            > > They are tourist stuff. Worth whatever you might get. No value to
            > > speak of.
            > >
            > >
            > > On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:11 PM, Samuel Nickolas Sinyangwe wrote:
            > >
            > > > I have collected three masks in my recent travels to Africa and I
            > > > have questions about them. The first I believe is a replica Marka
            > > > mask, collected in Cape Town. The second mask is, I think, most
            > > > appealing but I do not know much about it. Judging by the shape of
            > > > the eyes and the abstractness of it I believe it is from the Eket
            > > > tribe of Nigeria. Third mask I found in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and
            > > > was said to be from Kigoma, Tanzania. Does anybody know how much
            > > > these masks are worth and whether they are authentic? I am selling
            > > > all three to the highest bidder.
            > > >
            > > > Dimensions of the masks are:
            > > > Marka mask - 24 in x 10 in
            > > > Eket mask - 16 in x 12 in
            > > > Kigoma mask - 16 in x 7 in
            > > >
            > > > They can be viewed here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/
            > > > photos/album/719485890/pic/list
            > > >
            > > > YOU CAN ALSO FIND MORE OF MY COLLECTION AT thisisafricashop.com
            > > >
            > >
            >
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