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RE: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP

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  • Mark Rasmussen
    Hello Grant, Benin objects that can command that kind of money have been analyzed fully - both scientifically (photographic/UV/IR, microscopy, radiography,
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 4, 2008
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      Hello Grant,

       

      Benin objects that can command that kind of money have been analyzed fully - both scientifically (photographic/UV/IR, microscopy, radiography, XRF, metallography, SEM/EDS, TL, AMS, Radium, Pb-210, lead isotope – not just one, but all tests appropriate to the specific object) and stylistically (by a recognized expert such as Dr. Barbara Blackmun or Dr. Barbara Plankensteiner) or have irrefutable proof that they came from the Punitive Expedition of 1897… Early replacement pieces and later copies have been made since the early 1900’s and values can vary dramatically.

       

      Thank you,

      Mark Rasmussen - Rare Collections
      5865 Neal Avenue North, Suite 345
      Stillwater, MN 55082 USA
      612-961-4747 (Cell)
      mark@...
      www.rare-collections.com

      Notice: The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Information contained in this email may be subject to the terms and conditions of a Nondisclosure Agreement. If you received this message in error, or do not agree with its terms, delete it and all of its contents from your system(s). 


      From: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ed Jones
      Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:31 PM
      To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP

       

      Grant:

      I am inclinded to agree with Steve's objective assessment and fair recommendation.  Typically, African art values (particulary, the items you have posted) do not command such a monetary value ... Age certainly is not an indicator of value either.

       

      All the best,

      Ed 

      --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Steve Price <sprice@.... edu> wrote:

      From: Steve Price <sprice@.... edu>
      Subject: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP
      To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 2:39 AM

      Hi Grant

      I'd send photos to Sotheby's, the more detailled the better. They'll
      give you provisional estimates from them. Regarding the million
      dollar pieces that your grandparents donated, it sounds to me like
      someone was pulling your leg. There probably aren't three pieces of
      African art that have ever sold for that kind of money, and there
      aren't many people who give away things they could sell for millions.

      Out of curiosity: if you are in the midwest, why did you list the
      items on New York 's Craigs list? Did the $34,000 offer come from
      someone who'd never handled the pieces personally? Was he going to
      pay you by cutting you in on the money left to him by his murdered
      father ( Nigeria 's late Minister of E-Mail) that he needed to have
      transferred from a secret bank account to an American bank? It
      sounds pretty odd from this distance.

      Regards

      Steve Price

      --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Grant Carlson <gcarrlson@. ..>
      wrote:
      >
      > im not in new york     actually  in the midwest.   I need to find an
      appraiser in the midwest.
      >  I do believe that these are worth much more.  my grandparents
      which is where i got these from
      > gave pieces of there collection away/donated them that were worth
      millions.  They gave these pieces to me because i had an interest in
      them.
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: Steve Price <sprice@...>
      > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 9:04:04 PM
      > Subject: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP
      >
      >
      > Hi
      >
      > If you're in New York , why not bring the items to Sotheby's for an
      > estimate? Their people know market value pretty well, and won't
      > charge a dime for their opinion. If the Benin bronze is truly old
      > and genuine, it's worth a lot of money. On the other hand, you may
      > have simply encountered one of New York 's resident screwballs.
      >
      > Best of luck.
      >
      > Steve Price
      >
      > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Grant Carlson
      <gcarrlson@ ...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > so should i take the 34k for them.   would you?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message ----
      > > From: Mark Rasmussen <mark@>
      > > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 8:14:49 PM
      > > Subject: RE: [African_Arts] how old is this african sculpture?
      HELP
      > >
      > >
      > > Hello Jake,
      > >  
      > > For the latest in scientific research, authentication techniques,
      > and a detailed and thorough discussion of Benin and related
      materials
      > see:
      > >  
      > >  
      > > You may be able to find a copy at your local library or it can be
      > purchased from http://www.situatio n-kunst.de/ - just email
      > ip@situation- kunst.de and she (Iris) can help you place an order.
      In
      > the event that you would like to order it directly from the
      > publisher, you can email n.baer@zabern. de (from http://www.zabern.
      > de/controller. php?cmd=detail& titelnummer= 3909&verlag= 5).
      > >  
      > > Thank you,
      > > Mark Rasmussen - Rare Collections
      > > 5865 Neal Avenue North, Suite 345
      > > Stillwater , MN 55082 USA
      > > 612-961-4747 (Cell)
      > > mark@rare-collectio ns.com
      > > www.rare-collection s.com
      > > Notice:The information in this email is confidential and may be
      > legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access
      > to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the
      > intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any
      > action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is
      prohibited
      > and may be unlawful. Information containe d in this email may
      > be subject to the terms and conditions of a Nondisclosure
      Agreement.
      > If you received this message in error, or do not agree with its
      > terms, delete it and all of its contents from your system(s). 
      > >
      > > ____________ _________ _________ __
      > >
      > > From:African_ Arts@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: African_Arts@
      > yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Lee Rubinstein
      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 6:46 PM
      > > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Subject: Re: [African_Arts] how old is this african sculpture?
      HELP
      > >  
      > > Jake:
      > >  
      > > The figure looks nicely carved and the surface lustrous but the
      > figure overall does not strike me as particularly distinctive nor
      > does it show signs of wear consistent with age
      > or "experience. "  Although it is hard to read from the pictures,
      it
      > appears that the general form -- particularly the head -- may be
      > influenced by Kongo stylistics.  
      > >  
      > > The metal plaque which you presented does not display especially
      > good quality of work nor does it evidence the extreme fineness of
      > detail that has been achieved both in the older Benin plaques or in
      > better instances of reproduction.  It is not so difficult, however,
      > to identify the plaques which it emulates and the figures
      represented
      > therein.  For example, see the Later Middle Period (17th century)
      > Benin plaque in the National Museum in Lagos -- "Plaque Showing A
      > Warrior and Attendants" -- Image 86 on page 139 of Ekpo Eyo and
      Frank
      > Willett's Treasures of Ancient Nigeria (New York:  Alfred A. Knopf,
      > 1980) or "Warrior Chief and Attendants"  held by the Metropolitan
      > Museum of Art in New York . 
      > > (Just in case the link drops in sending:  http://www.metmuseu
      > m.org/toah/ ho/08/sfg/ hod_1990. 332.htm#)
      > > There is yet another example portraying this assemblage of three
      > figures at the University Museum in Philadelphia (thumbnail image
      > only) in the description of Benin works in that museum's
      > collection:  http://www.museum. upenn.edu/ new/exhibits/ galleries/
      > benin.shtml.
      > >  
      > > We have had many previous discussions pertaining to casting
      > traditions arising from the kingdom of Benin as well as continuing
      > casting traditions that persist in Benin City and in workshops
      around
      > the world where Benin forms are reproduced.. .  Search previous
      group
      > Messages for Benin .  Message 1416 contains a link to Joseph
      > Nevadomsky's "Art and Science in Benin Bronzes," an article from
      the
      > Spring 2004 African Arts magazine which provides excellent insight
      > into the problematic designation of " Benin bronzes."
      > >  
      > > If you happen to be in the Chicago area, visit the touring
      > exhibition of " BENIN Kings and Rituals: Court Arts from
      > Nigeria " (at the Art Insititute of Chicago through September 21)
      or
      > view the featured works on-line at  http://www.artic.
      > edu/aic/collecti ons/exhibitions/ benin/artwork.
      > >  
      > > Still, you are correct that it is far more appropriate for the
      > works to be displayed and appreciated than to be hidden away in a
      > closet..  Although they are not perhaps quite what you believed
      them
      > to be, they do offer entrée into the rich traditions which inspired
      > them. 
      > >  
      > > Lee
      > >  
      > > On Sep 3, 2008, at 6:43 PM, Ed Jones wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >  
      > > What leads you to believe that these pieces should be in a
      museum? 
      > Exact age cannot necessarily be determined.   
      > >  
      > > Ed
      > >
      > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, jake <gcarrlson@ yahoo. com> wrote:
      > > From: jake <gcarrlson@yahoo. com>
      > > Subject: [African_Arts] how old is this african sculpture? HELP
      > > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 9:46 PM
      > > I inherited these two objects from my grandparents:
      > > http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/
      browse/816e
      > >
      > > Pretty sure they should be in a museum or in someones
      > > collection thats into this stuff, not packed/hidden away!
      > > Any ideas on age? thanks
      > >  
      > >  
      > > __
      > >
      >

       

    • Grant Carlson
         any idea on where to sell                                      here s a few more photo s of them ... From: Mark
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 4, 2008
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           any idea on where to sell   

         

                                        here's a few more photo's of them



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Mark Rasmussen <mark@...>
        To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:12:36 PM
        Subject: RE: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP

        Hello Grant,

         

        Benin objects that can command that kind of money have been analyzed fully - both scientifically (photographic/ UV/IR, microscopy, radiography, XRF, metallography, SEM/EDS, TL, AMS, Radium, Pb-210, lead isotope – not just one, but all tests appropriate to the specific object) and stylistically (by a recognized expert such as Dr. Barbara Blackmun or Dr. Barbara Plankensteiner) or have irrefutable proof that they came from the Punitive Expedition of 1897… Early replacement pieces and later copies have been made since the early 1900’s and values can vary dramatically.

      • Steve Price
        Hi Grant I d start by finding out the value. Sotheby s will give you estimates from photos, at no cost. Surprising that nobody s suggested that yet. If they
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Grant

          I'd start by finding out the value. Sotheby's will give you
          estimates from photos, at no cost. Surprising that nobody's
          suggested that yet. If they think it's less than, say, $35,000, I've
          heard that Craig's List in New York reaches big spenders who buy
          African art in that price range sight unseen.

          Regards

          Steve Price

          Moderator's Note: As previous messages have suggested in response to your initial inquiry, one must authenticate and evaluate the objects in question in order to identify and classify them accurately and properly. A number of specialists have been indicated by Mark, for example, who was also kind enough to provide links to materials that will assist in the understanding of the broader issues of replication and the collector's "F"-word... fakery. There are many previous discussions which you can search regarding authenticity and appraisals as well as specific studies on and examples of the classes of objects about which you inquire. Based on the images provided, I would personally be quite surprised if either the figure or the plaque presented were to draw strong interest or achieve the high value you indicated had been offered to you. I can't help but feel that I am missing something here. I could not locate the Craigslist listing to which you refer but only some of the images you uploaded to the group which also appear on your Flickr photostream. I would be curious to know how the items were described when offered -- perhaps a missing piece of information which may have elicited an interest that I don't believe the images posted would ordinarily excite...

          Again, there are numerous resources in the Midwest which you can approach for further study -- including the University of Iowa Museum (when it re-opens, or the School of Art and Art History there), the Indiana University Art Museum [http://www.iub.edu/~iuam/online_modules/wielgus/%5d, the Indianapolis Museum of Art [http://www.imamuseum.org/%5d, the Krannert Art Museum in Urbana-Champaign [http://www.kam.uiuc.edu/collection.cfm?show=africa]. the Spurlock Museum in Urbana-Champaign [http://www.spurlock.uiuc.edu/%5d as well as the Art Institute of Chicago which is currently hosting the Benin exhibition previously mentioned.

          In addition to Christie's and Sotheby's, there are numerous auction houses in the Chicago area as well as the Chicago Appraisers Association [http://www.chicagoappraisers.com/auction-house-advice.html. ]Perhaps other group participants in the Midwest can direct you to other regional resources.

          Lee

          --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Grant Carlson <gcarrlson@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >    any idea on where to sell   
          >  
          >                                 here's a few more photo's of them
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Mark Rasmussen <mark@...>
          > To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:12:36 PM
          > Subject: RE: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture?
          HELP
          >
          >
          > Hello Grant,
          >  
          > Benin objects that can command that kind of money have been
          analyzed fully - both scientifically (photographic/ UV/IR,
          microscopy, radiography, XRF, metallography, SEM/EDS, TL, AMS,
          Radium, Pb-210, lead isotope – not just one, but all tests
          appropriate to the specific object) and stylistically (by a
          recognized expert such as Dr. Barbara Blackmun or Dr. Barbara
          Plankensteiner) or have irrefutable proof that they came from the
          Punitive Expedition of 1897… Early replacement pieces and later
          copies have been made since the early 1900's and values can vary
          dramatically.
          >  
          > Thank you,
          > Mark Rasmussen - Rare Collections
          > 5865 Neal Avenue North, Suite 345
          > Stillwater, MN 55082 USA
          > 612-961-4747 (Cell)
          > mark@rare-collectio ns.com
          > www.rare-collection s.com
          > Notice:The information in this email is confidential and may be
          legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access
          to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the
          intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any
          action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited
          and may be unlawful. Information contained in this email may
          be subject to the terms and conditions of a Nondisclosure Agreement.
          If you received this message in error, or do not agree with its
          terms, delete it and all of its contents from your system(s). 
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
          > From:African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: African_Arts@
          yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Ed Jones
          > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:31 PM
          > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
          > Subject: Re: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture?
          HELP
          >  
          > Grant:
          > I am inclinded to agree with Steve's objective assessment and fair
          recommendation.  Typically, African art values (particulary, the
          items you have posted) do not command such a monetary value ... Age
          certainly is not an indicator of value either.
          >  
          > All the best,
          > Ed 
          >
          > --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Steve Price <sprice@... edu> wrote:
          > From: Steve Price <sprice@... edu>
          > Subject: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP
          > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
          > Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 2:39 AM
          > Hi Grant
          >
          > I'd send photos to Sotheby's, the more detailled the better.
          They'll
          > give you provisional estimates from them. Regarding the million
          > dollar pieces that your grandparents donated, it sounds to me like
          > someone was pulling your leg. There probably aren't three pieces of
          > African art that have ever sold for that kind of money, and there
          > aren't many people who give away things they could sell for
          millions.
          >
          > Out of curiosity: if you are in the midwest, why did you list the
          > items on New York 's Craigs list? Did the $34,000 offer come from
          > someone who'd never handled the pieces personally? Was he going to
          > pay you by cutting you in on the money left to him by his murdered
          > father ( Nigeria 's late Minister of E-Mail) that he needed to have
          > transferred from a secret bank account to an American bank? It
          > sounds pretty odd from this distance.
          >
          > Regards
          >
          > Steve Price
          >
          > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Grant Carlson
          <gcarrlson@ ..>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > im not in new york     actually  in the midwest.   I need to find
          an
          > appraiser in the midwest.
          > >  I do believe that these are worth much more.  my grandparents
          > which is where i got these from
          > > gave pieces of there collection away/donated them that were worth
          > millions.  They gave these pieces to me because i had an interest
          in
          > them.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message ----
          > > From: Steve Price <sprice@>
          > > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
          > > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 9:04:04 PM
          > > Subject: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture?
          HELP
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi
          > >
          > > If you're in New York , why not bring the items to Sotheby's for
          an
          > > estimate? Their people know market value pretty well, and won't
          > > charge a dime for their opinion. If the Benin bronze is truly old
          > > and genuine, it's worth a lot of money. On the other hand, you
          may
          > > have simply encountered one of New York 's resident screwballs.
          > >
          > > Best of luck.
          > >
          > > Steve Price
          > >
          > > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Grant Carlson
          > <gcarrlson@ ...>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > so should i take the 34k for them.   would you?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ----- Original Message ----
          > > > From: Mark Rasmussen <mark@>
          > > > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
          > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 8:14:49 PM
          > > > Subject: RE: [African_Arts] how old is this african sculpture?
          > HELP
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hello Jake,
          > > >  
          > > > For the latest in scientific research, authentication
          techniques,
          > > and a detailed and thorough discussion of Benin and related
          > materials
          > > see:
          > > >  
          > > >  
          > > > You may be able to find a copy at your local library or it can
          be
          > > purchased from http://www.situatio n-kunst.de/ - just email
          > > ip@situation- kunst.de and she (Iris) can help you place an
          order.
          > In
          > > the event that you would like to order it directly from the
          > > publisher, you can email n.baer@zabern. de (from
          http://www.zabern
          > > de/controller. php?cmd=detail& titelnummer= 3909&verlag= 5).
          > > >  
          > > > Thank you,
          > > > Mark Rasmussen - Rare Collections
          > > > 5865 Neal Avenue North, Suite 345
          > > > Stillwater , MN 55082 USA
          > > > 612-961-4747 (Cell)
          > > > mark@rare-collectio ns.com
          > > > www.rare-collection s.com
          > > > Notice:The information in this email is confidential and may be
          > > legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee.
          Access
          > > to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the
          > > intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any
          > > action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is
          > prohibited
          > > and may be unlawful. Information containe d in this email may
          > > be subject to the terms and conditions of a Nondisclosure
          > Agreement.
          > > If you received this message in error, or do not agree with its
          > > terms, delete it and all of its contents from your system(s). 
          > > >
          > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
          > > >
          > > > From:African_ Arts@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: African_Arts@
          > > yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Lee Rubinstein
          > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 6:46 PM
          > > > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
          > > > Subject: Re: [African_Arts] how old is this african sculpture?
          > HELP
          > > >  
          > > > Jake:
          > > >  
          > > > The figure looks nicely carved and the surface lustrous but the
          > > figure overall does not strike me as particularly distinctive nor
          > > does it show signs of wear consistent with age
          > > or "experience.. "  Although it is hard to read from the
          pictures,
          > it
          > > appears that the general form -- particularly the head -- may be
          > > influenced by Kongo stylistics.  
          > > >  
          > > > The metal plaque which you presented does not display
          especially
          > > good quality of work nor does it evidence the extreme fineness of
          > > detail that has been achieved both in the older Benin plaques or
          in
          > > better instances of reproduction.  It is not so difficult,
          however,
          > > to identify the plaques which it emulates and the figures
          > represented
          > > therein.  For example, see the Later Middle Period (17th century)
          > > Benin plaque in the National Museum in Lagos -- "Plaque Showing A
          > > Warrior and Attendants" -- Image 86 on page 139 of Ekpo Eyo and
          > Frank
          > > Willett's Treasures of Ancient Nigeria (New York:  Alfred A.
          Knopf,
          > > 1980) or "Warrior Chief and Attendants"  held by the Metropolitan
          > > Museum of Art in New York . 
          > > > (Just in case the link drops in sending:  http://www.metmuseu
          > > m.org/toah/ ho/08/sfg/ hod_1990. 332.htm#)
          > > > There is yet another example portraying this assemblage of
          three
          > > figures at the University Museum in Philadelphia (thumbnail image
          > > only) in the description of Benin works in that museum's
          > > collection:  http://www.museum upenn.edu/ new/exhibits/
          galleries/
          > > benin.shtml.
          > > >  
          > > > We have had many previous discussions pertaining to casting
          > > traditions arising from the kingdom of Benin as well as
          continuing
          > > casting traditions that persist in Benin City and in workshops
          > around
          > > the world where Benin forms are reproduced.. .  Search previous
          > group
          > > Messages for Benin .  Message 1416 contains a link to Joseph
          > > Nevadomsky's "Art and Science in Benin Bronzes," an article from
          > the
          > > Spring 2004 African Arts magazine which provides excellent
          insight
          > > into the problematic designation of " Benin bronzes."
          > > >  
          > > > If you happen to be in the Chicago area, visit the touring
          > > exhibition of " BENIN Kings and Rituals: Court Arts from
          > > Nigeria " (at the Art Insititute of Chicago through September 21)
          > or
          > > view the featured works on-line at  http://www.artic
          > > edu/aic/collecti ons/exhibitions/ benin/artwork.
          > > >  
          > > > Still, you are correct that it is far more appropriate for the
          > > works to be displayed and appreciated than to be hidden away in a
          > > closet..  Although they are not perhaps quite what you believed
          > them
          > > to be, they do offer entrée into the rich traditions which
          inspired
          > > them. 
          > > >  
          > > > Lee
          > > >  
          > > > On Sep 3, 2008, at 6:43 PM, Ed Jones wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >  
          > > > What leads you to believe that these pieces should be in a
          > museum? 
          > > Exact age cannot necessarily be determined.   
          > > >  
          > > > Ed
          > > >
          > > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, jake <gcarrlson@ yahoo. com> wrote:
          > > > From: jake <gcarrlson@yahoo. com>
          > > > Subject: [African_Arts] how old is this african sculpture? HELP
          > > > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
          > > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 9:46 PM
          > > > I inherited these two objects from my grandparents:
          > > > http://ph.groups yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/
          > browse/816e
          > > >
          > > > Pretty sure they should be in a museum or in someones
          > > > collection thats into this stuff, not packed/hidden away!
          > > > Any ideas on age? thanks
          > > >  
          > > >  
          > > > __
          > > >
          > >
          >  
          >
        • jp estrampes
          Lancer le
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Enregistrer toutes les photos Vous voulez enregistrer toutes ces photos en même temps ? Savoir comment
            Lancer le diaporamaLancer le diaporamaEnregistrer toutes les photos
            Les photos sont disponibles en ligne pendant 30 jours.
             
            Hi,
            If you go to the british museum, they get from the museum of mankind the fantastic collection of Benin bronze plaque. As you can see from the pictures I took myself  from the side, subjects are popping out in three dimensions. Usually pictures in books made them flat, the forgeries like your pieces are made from the photos. See the difference. Sorry for you.
            JPE
             

            Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 4:38 AM
            Subject: Re: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP

               any idea on where to sell   

             

                                            here's a few more photo's of them



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Mark Rasmussen <mark@rare-collectio ns.com>
            To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:12:36 PM
            Subject: RE: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP

            Hello Grant,

             

            Benin objects that can command that kind of money have been analyzed fully - both scientifically (photographic/ UV/IR, microscopy, radiography, XRF, metallography, SEM/EDS, TL, AMS, Radium, Pb-210, lead isotope – not just one, but all tests appropriate to the specific object) and stylistically (by a recognized expert such as Dr. Barbara Blackmun or Dr. Barbara Plankensteiner) or have irrefutable proof that they came from the Punitive Expedition of 1897… Early replacement pieces and later copies have been made since the early 1900’s and values can vary dramatically.

          • Grant Carlson
            thanks for your input.  just found out that the wooden piece is 4000 yrs old.    ufta pretty good forgery huh    im in heaven! ... From: jp estrampes
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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              thanks for your input.  just found out that the wooden piece is 4000 yrs old.    ufta pretty

              good forgery huh    im in heaven!



              Moderator's Note: It would be helpful if you would provide some detail about how you have determined the age of the figure and its classification. I look forward to hearing more detail and subsequent discussion. Lee
            • Lee Rubinstein
              Grant: An additional question I would like to pose is this. In your most recent posting you indicated that you have just found out that the wooden piece is
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                Grant:

                An additional question I would like to pose is this.  In your most recent posting you indicated that you have "just found out that the wooden piece is 4000 years old."  Yet, that is the same age indicated, it seems, when this "Nubian" figure was posted o what appears to be your Flickr photostream two months ago on July 6.  (See http://flickr.com/photos/28338061@N03/).  There seems to be a disconnect between your statements here and the on-line record pertaining to these objects -- as well as very little interest shown or appreciation for the information which is being provided to you by group members in response to your inquiries.  As the primary intent of this discussion group is to promote and present educative discussion, it would be appropriate if you would please clarify and/or add detail of your classification and age-determination protocols so as to provide value to the discussion for group participants.  

                Thanks, Lee

                On Sep 5, 2008, at 1:29 PM, Grant Carlson wrote:

                thanks for your input.  just found out that the wooden piece is 4000 yrs old.    ufta pretty

                good forgery huh    im in heaven!



                Moderator's Note: It would be helpful if you would provide some detail about how you have determined the age of the figure and its classification. I look forward to hearing more detail and subsequent discussion. Lee <028.JPG>

              • MO OKDG
                Lee, could you please tell Grant that someone may be telling him a lie?
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                  Lee, could you please tell Grant that someone may be telling him a lie?


                  --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Lee Rubinstein <LeeRubinstein@...> wrote:

                  > From: Lee Rubinstein <LeeRubinstein@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP
                  > To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:11 PM
                  > Grant:
                  >
                  > An additional question I would like to pose is this. In
                  > your most
                  > recent posting you indicated that you have "just found
                  > out that the
                  > wooden piece is 4000 years old." Yet, that is the
                  > same age indicated,
                  > it seems, when this "Nubian" figure was posted o
                  > what appears to be
                  > your Flickr photostream two months ago on July 6. (See
                  > http://flickr.com/photos/28338061@N03/)
                  > . There seems to be a disconnect between your statements
                  > here and the
                  > on-line record pertaining to these objects -- as well as
                  > very little
                  > interest shown or appreciation for the information which is
                  > being
                  > provided to you by group members in response to your
                  > inquiries. As
                  > the primary intent of this discussion group is to promote
                  > and present
                  > educative discussion, it would be appropriate if you would
                  > please
                  > clarify and/or add detail of your classification and
                  > age-determination
                  > protocols so as to provide value to the discussion for
                  > group
                  > participants.
                  >
                  > Thanks, Lee
                  >
                  > On Sep 5, 2008, at 1:29 PM, Grant Carlson wrote:
                  >
                  > > thanks for your input. just found out that the wooden
                  > piece is 4000
                  > > yrs old. ufta pretty
                  > >
                  > > good forgery huh im in heaven!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Moderator's Note: It would be helpful if you would
                  > provide some
                  > > detail about how you have determined the age of the
                  > figure and its
                  > > classification. I look forward to hearing more detail
                  > and subsequent
                  > > discussion. Lee <028.JPG>
                • Steve Price
                  ... lie? Hi I doubt that anyone lied to him. The only thing he s written that I believe is that he has a couple of pieces that he d like to sell. The rest
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                    --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, MO OKDG <okdg@...> wrote:

                    > Lee, could you please tell Grant that someone may be telling him a
                    lie?

                    Hi

                    I doubt that anyone lied to him. The only thing he's written that I
                    believe is that he has a couple of pieces that he'd like to sell. The
                    rest (the source being his multimillionaire collector grandparent, the
                    4,000 year age of one piece, the New York Craig's List advertisement,
                    the $34,000 offer) is pure baloney. He'd be lucky to unload the pieces
                    for a few hundred dollars on eBay, and I'm sure he knows it.

                    Steve Price
                  • michael trupp
                    Enuf said. Thank You Lee and Steve for bringing this back to reality. Michael ... From: Steve Price Subject: [African_Arts] Re: how old is
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                      Enuf said.
                      Thank You Lee and Steve for bringing this back to reality.
                      Michael

                      --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Steve Price <sprice@...> wrote:
                      From: Steve Price <sprice@...>
                      Subject: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP
                      To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 4:57 PM

                      --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, MO OKDG <okdg@...> wrote:

                      > Lee, could you please tell Grant that someone may be telling him a
                      lie?

                      Hi

                      I doubt that anyone lied to him. The only thing he's written that I
                      believe is that he has a couple of pieces that he'd like to sell. The
                      rest (the source being his multimillionaire collector grandparent, the
                      4,000 year age of one piece, the New York Craig's List advertisement,
                      the $34,000 offer) is pure baloney. He'd be lucky to unload the pieces
                      for a few hundred dollars on eBay, and I'm sure he knows it.

                      Steve Price


                    • craig lewis
                      Nothing odd going on here, I think that he may have a sticky  0 key on his keyboard and it s done three zeros after the 4 when it shouldn t have done any 
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                        Nothing odd going on here, I think that he may have a sticky  "0 " key on his keyboard and it's done three zeros after the 4 when it shouldn't have done any  ;-)
                         
                        Craig

                        --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Steve Price <sprice@...> wrote:
                        From: Steve Price <sprice@...>
                        Subject: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP
                        To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, 5 September, 2008, 9:57 PM

                        --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, MO OKDG <okdg@...> wrote:

                        > Lee, could you please tell Grant that someone may be telling him a
                        lie?

                        Hi

                        I doubt that anyone lied to him. The only thing he's written that I
                        believe is that he has a couple of pieces that he'd like to sell. The
                        rest (the source being his multimillionaire collector grandparent, the
                        4,000 year age of one piece, the New York Craig's List advertisement,
                        the $34,000 offer) is pure baloney. He'd be lucky to unload the pieces
                        for a few hundred dollars on eBay, and I'm sure he knows it.

                        Steve Price


                      • Laura Fiore
                        Craig, By Jove, I think you ve got it! Mystery solved. LF ... From: craig lewis To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:50 PM
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          
                          Craig,
                          By Jove, I think you've got it!  Mystery solved.
                           
                          LF
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:50 PM
                          Subject: Re: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP

                          Nothing odd going on here, I think that he may have a sticky  "0 " key on his keyboard and it's done three zeros after the 4 when it shouldn't have done any  ;-)
                           
                          Craig

                          --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Steve Price <sprice@.... edu> wrote:
                          From: Steve Price <sprice@.... edu>
                          Subject: [African_Arts] Re: how old is this african sculpture? HELP
                          To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Friday, 5 September, 2008, 9:57 PM

                          --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, MO OKDG <okdg@...> wrote:

                          > Lee, could you please tell Grant that someone may be telling him a
                          lie?

                          Hi

                          I doubt that anyone lied to him. The only thing he's written that I
                          believe is that he has a couple of pieces that he'd like to sell. The
                          rest (the source being his multimillionaire collector grandparent, the
                          4,000 year age of one piece, the New York Craig's List advertisement,
                          the $34,000 offer) is pure baloney. He'd be lucky to unload the pieces
                          for a few hundred dollars on eBay, and I'm sure he knows it.

                          Steve Price


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