Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

I NEED HELP!

Expand Messages
  • ESTER
    I included a photograph of a figure (page 4, emrpc) . Can someone tell me what is it? http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/a804?b=1&o=2
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 7, 2007
    • 0 Attachment





      I included a photograph of a figure (page 4, emrpc) . Can someone tell me what is it?
       
      Thank you.
       
      Esther
       
       











      ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
      Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.




      ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
      Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
    • satan luci
      Could it be Senufo ? Gerald ... http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/a804?b=1&o=2 ...
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 7, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Could it be Senufo ? Gerald
        --- ESTER <emrpc@...> wrote:

        > I included a photograph of a figure (page 4, emrpc)
        > . Can someone tell me what is it?
        >
        >
        http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/a804?b=1&o=2
        > Thank you.
        >
        > Esther
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
        > Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
        >
        >
        >
        > ______________________________________________
        > ¿Chef por primera vez?
        > Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
        > http://es.answers.yahoo.com/info/welcome



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        Looking for last minute shopping deals?
        Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
      • ESTER
        Thanks but the face, the hair and the perfored eyes aren´t senufo, I think so. ... De: satan luci Para:
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 7, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks but the face, the hair and the perfored eyes aren´t senufo, I think so.

          ----- Mensaje original ----
          De: satan luci <bissikrima46000@...>
          Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
          Enviado: viernes, 7 de diciembre, 2007 23:16:47
          Asunto: Re: [African_Arts] I NEED HELP!

          Could it be Senufo ? Gerald
          --- ESTER <emrpc@yahoo. es> wrote:

          > I included a photograph of a figure (page 4, emrpc)
          > . Can someone tell me what is it?
          >
          >
          http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ view/a804? b=1&o=2
          > Thank you.
          >
          > Esther
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
          > Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _______
          > ¿Chef por primera vez?
          > Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
          >
          href="http://es.answers.yahoo.com/info/welcome" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://es.answers. yahoo.com/ info/welcome

          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          Looking for last minute shopping deals?
          Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping





          ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
          Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
        • Lee Rubinstein
          Esther: I agree. Another thought: Although far less refined in detail and carving, the figure about which you inquired appears to me to be inspired by Baule
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 7, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Esther:

            I agree.  Another thought:  Although far less refined in detail and carving, the figure about which you inquired appears to me to be inspired by Baule seated figures such as this one offered as Lot 33 in the recent Sotheby's sale in Paris:

            Or, perhaps this example from the Stanoff Collection (offered in may in New York) displays more clearly the elements -- posture, stool, and elongated beard observable in Baule male figures, staff finials, etc.: 

            Lee

          • ESTER
            Thanks a lot. I think so but the perfored eyes, the hair and the face aren´t baule. Other alternative could be Congo? ... De: Lee Rubinstein
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 7, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks a lot. I think so but the perfored eyes, the hair and the face aren´t baule. Other alternative could be Congo? 

              ----- Mensaje original ----
              De: Lee Rubinstein <LeeRubinstein@...>
              Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
              Enviado: viernes, 7 de diciembre, 2007 23:52:11
              Asunto: Re: [African_Arts] I NEED HELP!

              Esther:

              I agree.  Another thought:  Although far less refined in detail and carving, the figure about which you inquired appears to me to be inspired by Baule seated figures such as this one offered as Lot 33 in the recent Sotheby's sale in Paris:

              Or, perhaps this example from the Stanoff Collection (offered in may in New York) displays more clearly the elements -- posture, stool, and elongated beard observable in Baule male figures, staff finials, etc.: 

              Lee





              ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
              Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
            • M.E.F.
              To me it looks like a mixture (never a good sign) of Baule and other styles. M ... Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 7, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                To me it looks like a mixture (never a good sign) of Baule and other styles. M


                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
              • RAND (Rand African Art)
                Ester What Lee and Margalit are saying is that your object is loosely based on Baule influence. The object was most likely made in a workshop in some other
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ester
                   
                  What Lee and Margalit are saying is that your object is loosely based on Baule influence.
                   
                  The object was most likely made in a workshop in some other part of Africa by an artist that was not Baule, but the artist was crafting the object to resemble the traditional Baule sculptures like the ones that Lee provided examples of.
                   
                  The differences that you see, the mixture of styles, are because the object was crafted by an artist that was not a trained Baule sculptor, it was most likely produced in a workshop in Cameroon (or somewhere else) that produces objects from various African cultures and that is why you see the various cultural influences. The object does not conform to one specific cultural style, it's a hybrid. That is what you will often find from objects that were produced specifically for the collecting market in countries other than the ones that the type of sculpture would have originally been made in by artisans other than the ones that would have traditionally made them.
                   
                  The specific style that your statue is carved in is definitely Baule. That particular pose holding the beard in the hands is not generally seen in any other sculptures from other cultures.
                   
                  Hope that helps some.
                   
                  Cheers
                  RAND
                   

                  ESTER <emrpc@...> wrote:
                  Thanks a lot. I think so but the perfored eyes, the hair and the face aren´t baule. Other alternative could be Congo?


                  ----- Mensaje original ----
                  De: Lee Rubinstein
                  Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                  Enviado: viernes, 7 de diciembre, 2007 23:52:11
                  Asunto: Re: [African_Arts] I NEED HELP!

                  Esther:


                  I agree. Another thought: Although far less refined in detail and carving, the figure about which you inquired appears to me to be inspired by Baule seated figures such as this one offered as Lot 33 in the recent Sotheby's sale in Paris:

                  http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159396133


                  Or, perhaps this example from the Stanoff Collection (offered in may in New York) displays more clearly the elements -- posture, stool, and elongated beard observable in Baule male figures, staff finials, etc.:

                  http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159353551


                  Lee



                  ______________________________________________
                  ¿Chef por primera vez?
                  Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
                  http://es.answers.yahoo.com/info/welcome

                • ESTER
                  I agree with you. Thank you very much. ... De: M.E.F. Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com Enviado: sábado, 8 de diciembre, 2007
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I agree with you. Thank you very much.

                    ----- Mensaje original ----
                    De: M.E.F. <mfliegelmann@...>
                    Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                    Enviado: sábado, 8 de diciembre, 2007 7:44:21
                    Asunto: Re: [African_Arts] I NEED HELP!

                    To me it looks like a mixture (never a good sign) of Baule and other styles. M


                    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.





                    ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
                    Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
                  • Ann Porteus
                    Hi Ester, I agree with Rand, My guess is that it may have been carved in Kenya because the carvers there see a lot of representations of Baule carvings as
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Ester,
                      I agree with Rand,
                      My guess is that it may have been carved in Kenya because the carvers there see a lot of  representations of Baule carvings as well as Bacongo and other figures from Eastern DRC. Ghana is the other place that produces a lot of this style of hybrid figures.

                      It is interesting because both countries traditionally had a reasonably strong history of carving but since colonisation and the very invasive development of Christianity there has been a swing among the carvers to 'manufacture' for the market. The quality of these carvings has dropped considerably during the past 20 years. The old carvers complain because they had to do a full apprenticeship before establishing themselves but the young carvers want to start selling immediately. They have no accumulated knowledge of styles - just memories of pictures from books and pieces that others have carved. When a carver copies 3rd or 4th generation copies the styles must change. They love it when they can invent a new style! In Kenya the Kikuyu traders also love to show a piece then produce a copy of African Arts and assure you that the antique they have is identical to the picture on the cover.

                      10 or 15 years ago I saw a lot of similar figures in the Central market in Accra. I kept saying to the guys that I liked the figure but not the carving.
                      Eventually someone took me to the carvers. There sitting on a block was the same figure beautifully carved and aged. Sitting around him were several carvers making copies. I bought the original. The following year again in Accra I saw copies of the copies and the next year I saw carvers at carina carving workshop in Abidjan making copies of the second generation copies. The move away from the original was enormous. 
                      I still have my original Dogon man from Ghana. I don't believe that he is a traditional figure. I think that originally he was also made for the market. But he is a wonderful piece and beautifully executed in the traditional Dogon style. I like to think that he was made for the market in a village in or near the Dogon. Who knows. He may even be an authentic ancestor figure. I don't care. I like him and that is all that matters.

                      The older carvers who carved for the market did their best to make accurate representations. Now the young carvers try to produce as many pieces as possible. Especially in Ghana and Kenya the inflation during the past 10 years has been huge. While the prices of old and used pieces have risen a lot the price of reproduction carvings has not kept up with inflation. High unemployment in cities means that more people are trying to make a small living by carving. Who can blame them. They also have families to feed.
                      This market is also increasing in Cameroon. Their economy has  declined a lot but more recently. In Cameroon there is still their own original culture where there is a very strong knowledge and history of carving. While there are copies and hybrids from other countries they are much more likely to reproduce pieces from their own or neighbouring groups. 
                      They are also closer to other West African countries so it is easier and cheaper for the traders to bring pieces like the Baule figures to Cameroon and sell them in the markets of cameroon. This means that the carvers in Cameroon cannot make as much money for a hybrid as they can with a good pieces from a culture that they know. In Cameroon the traders readily describe their pieces as decorator market, old, used authentic or copies. The prices are set to match. Inexperienced traders often do not know the styles any more than the carvers.
                      Last month I purchased a door frame. I was told it was Namji and did not buy it immediately. Something was wrong. When I went back to look again I saw the problem immediately. The figures on the frame are Namji but the faces on the figures are Fang. I still liked it and the carving is good, the price low so I bought it. It is a nice work and so long as I understand the difference does it really matter? I am certain that the man selling it was genuine and really believed that it is Namji. He purchased it in that region, gave me the village name etc. I think of it as a Bamaleke door frame with Namji figures sporting Fang faces! It is small and would make a wonderful surround to any smaller window.

                      In any community that promotes the arts there will always be a huge variation in the standards of art works. From the colour circle painters to the professional. Africa is no different. There is always something for everyone in any market place.
                      The head of your figure does look as though it has come from DRC or maybe even the Lobi much closer to home but the style of the figure is Baule without the detail. Take the carving away from its original culture and the small details have no meaning to the carver. My guess is that your piece came from Kenya - Nairobi or another city in the region.  
                      Hope that we have not disappointed you. 
                      Have a good day,
                      ann

                      On 08/12/2007, at 7:13 PM, RAND ((Rand African Art)) wrote:


                      Ester
                       
                      What Lee and Margalit are saying is that your object is loosely based on Baule influence.
                       
                      The object was most likely made in a workshop in some other part of Africa by an artist that was not Baule, but the artist was crafting the object to resemble the traditional Baule sculptures like the ones that Lee provided examples of.
                       
                      The differences that you see, the mixture of styles, are because the object was crafted by an artist that was not a trained Baule sculptor, it was most likely produced in a workshop in Cameroon (or somewhere else) that produces objects from various African cultures and that is why you see the various cultural influences. The object does not conform to one specific cultural style, it's a hybrid. That is what you will often find from objects that were produced specifically for the collecting market in countries other than the ones that the type of sculpture would have originally been made in by artisans other than the ones that would have traditionally made them.
                       
                      The specific style that your statue is carved in is definitely Baule. That particular pose holding the beard in the hands is not generally seen in any other sculptures from other cultures.
                       
                      Hope that helps some.
                       
                      Cheers
                      RAND
                       

                      ESTER <emrpc@yahoo. es> wrote:
                      Thanks a lot. I think so but the perfored eyes, the hair and the face aren´t baule. Other alternative could be Congo? 


                      ----- Mensaje original ----
                      De: Lee Rubinstein 
                      Para: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
                      Enviado: viernes, 7 de diciembre, 2007 23:52:11
                      Asunto: Re: [African_Arts] I NEED HELP!

                      Esther:


                      I agree. Another thought: Although far less refined in detail and carving, the figure about which you inquired appears to me to be inspired by Baule seated figures such as this one offered as Lot 33 in the recent Sotheby's sale in Paris:

                      http://www.sothebys .com/app/ live/lot/ LotDetail. jsp?lot_id= 159396133


                      Or, perhaps this example from the Stanoff Collection (offered in may in New York) displays more clearly the elements -- posture, stool, and elongated beard observable in Baule male figures, staff finials, etc.: 

                      http://www.sothebys .com/app/ live/lot/ LotDetail. jsp?lot_id= 159353551


                      Lee



                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _______ 
                      ¿Chef por primera vez?
                      Sé un mejor Cocinillas. 
                      http://es.answers. yahoo.com/ info/welcome



                    • ESTER
                      Thank you for your fantastic explanation. Its very interesting and probably the correct answers. Thanks ... De: Ann Porteus Para:
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thank you for your fantastic explanation. Its very interesting and probably the correct answers. Thanks

                        ----- Mensaje original ----
                        De: Ann Porteus <ann@...>
                        Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                        Enviado: sábado, 8 de diciembre, 2007 14:44:10
                        Asunto: Re: [African_Arts] I NEED HELP!

                        Hi Ester,

                        I agree with Rand,
                        My guess is that it may have been carved in Kenya because the carvers there see a lot of  representations of Baule carvings as well as Bacongo and other figures from Eastern DRC. Ghana is the other place that produces a lot of this style of hybrid figures.

                        It is interesting because both countries traditionally had a reasonably strong history of carving but since colonisation and the very invasive development of Christianity there has been a swing among the carvers to 'manufacture' for the market. The quality of these carvings has dropped considerably during the past 20 years. The old carvers complain because they had to do a full apprenticeship before establishing themselves but the young carvers want to start selling immediately. They have no accumulated knowledge of styles - just memories of pictures from books and pieces that others have carved. When a carver copies 3rd or 4th generation copies the styles must change. They love it when they can invent a new style! In Kenya the Kikuyu traders also love to show a piece then produce a copy of African Arts and assure you that the antique they have is identical to the picture on the cover.

                        10 or 15 years ago I saw a lot of similar figures in the Central market in Accra. I kept saying to the guys that I liked the figure but not the carving.
                        Eventually someone took me to the carvers. There sitting on a block was the same figure beautifully carved and aged. Sitting around him were several carvers making copies. I bought the original. The following year again in Accra I saw copies of the copies and the next year I saw carvers at carina carving workshop in Abidjan making copies of the second generation copies. The move away from the original was enormous. 
                        I still have my original Dogon man from Ghana. I don't believe that he is a traditional figure. I think that originally he was also made for the market. But he is a wonderful piece and beautifully executed in the traditional Dogon style. I like to think that he was made for the market in a village in or near the Dogon. Who knows. He may even be an authentic ancestor figure. I don't care. I like him and that is all that matters.

                        The older carvers who carved for the market did their best to make accurate representations. Now the young carvers try to produce as many pieces as possible. Especially in Ghana and Kenya the inflation during the past 10 years has been huge. While the prices of old and used pieces have risen a lot the price of reproduction carvings has not kept up with inflation. High unemployment in cities means that more people are trying to make a small living by carving. Who can blame them. They also have families to feed.
                        This market is also increasing in Cameroon. Their economy has  declined a lot but more recently. In Cameroon there is still their own original culture where there is a very strong knowledge and history of carving. While there are copies and hybrids from other countries they are much more likely to reproduce pieces from their own or neighbouring groups. 
                        They are also closer to other West African countries so it is easier and cheaper for the traders to bring pieces like the Baule figures to Cameroon and sell them in the markets of cameroon. This means that the carvers in Cameroon cannot make as much money for a hybrid as they can with a good pieces from a culture that they know. In Cameroon the traders readily describe their pieces as decorator market, old, used authentic or copies. The prices are set to match. Inexperienced traders often do not know the styles any more than the carvers.
                        Last month I purchased a door frame. I was told it was Namji and did not buy it immediately. Something was wrong. When I went back to look again I saw the problem immediately. The figures on the frame are Namji but the faces on the figures are Fang. I still liked it and the carving is good, the price low so I bought it. It is a nice work and so long as I understand the difference does it really matter? I am certain that the man selling it was genuine and really believed that it is Namji. He purchased it in that region, gave me the village name etc. I think of it as a Bamaleke door frame with Namji figures sporting Fang faces! It is small and would make a wonderful surround to any smaller window.

                        In any community that promotes the arts there will always be a huge variation in the standards of art works. From the colour circle painters to the professional. Africa is no different. There is always something for everyone in any market place.
                        The head of your figure does look as though it has come from DRC or maybe even the Lobi much closer to home but the style of the figure is Baule without the detail. Take the carving away from its original culture and the small details have no meaning to the carver. My guess is that your piece came from Kenya - Nairobi or another city in the region.  
                        Hope that we have not disappointed you. 
                        Have a good day,
                        ann

                        On 08/12/2007, at 7:13 PM, RAND ((Rand African Art)) wrote:


                        Ester
                         
                        What Lee and Margalit are saying is that your object is loosely based on Baule influence.
                         
                        The object was most likely made in a workshop in some other part of Africa by an artist that was not Baule, but the artist was crafting the object to resemble the traditional Baule sculptures like the ones that Lee provided examples of.
                         
                        The differences that you see, the mixture of styles, are because the object was crafted by an artist that was not a trained Baule sculptor, it was most likely produced in a workshop in Cameroon (or somewhere else) that produces objects from various African cultures and that is why you see the various cultural influences. The object does not conform to one specific cultural style, it's a hybrid. That is what you will often find from objects that were produced specifically for the collecting market in countries other than the ones that the type of sculpture would have originally been made in by artisans other than the ones that would have traditionally made them.
                         
                        The specific style that your statue is carved in is definitely Baule. That particular pose holding the beard in the hands is not generally seen in any other sculptures from other cultures.
                         
                        Hope that helps some.
                         
                        Cheers
                        RAND
                         

                        ESTER <emrpc@yahoo. es> wrote:
                        Thanks a lot. I think so but the perfored eyes, the hair and the face aren´t baule. Other alternative could be Congo? 


                        ----- Mensaje original ----
                        De: Lee Rubinstein 
                        Para: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
                        Enviado: viernes, 7 de diciembre, 2007 23:52:11
                        Asunto: Re: [African_Arts] I NEED HELP!

                        Esther:


                        I agree. Another thought: Although far less refined in detail and carving, the figure about which you inquired appears to me to be inspired by Baule seated figures such as this one offered as Lot 33 in the recent Sotheby's sale in Paris:

                        http://www.sothebys .com/app/ live/lot/ LotDetail. jsp?lot_id= 159396133


                        Or, perhaps this example from the Stanoff Collection (offered in may in New York) displays more clearly the elements -- posture, stool, and elongated beard observable in Baule male figures, staff finials, etc.: 

                        http://www.sothebys .com/app/ live/lot/ LotDetail. jsp?lot_id= 159353551


                        Lee



                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _______ 
                        ¿Chef por primera vez?
                        Sé un mejor Cocinillas. 
                        http://es.answers. yahoo.com/ info/welcome







                        ¿Chef por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Cocinillas.
                        Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
                      • amyas naegeleLast Name
                        Both Rand and Ann have written convincingly and fairly accurately on this issue, but don t agree with Ann on all the history here. For one, it shouldn t be
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Both Rand and Ann have written convincingly and fairly
                          accurately on this issue, but don't agree with Ann on
                          all the history here. For one, it shouldn't be
                          surprising that the countries with the strongest
                          carving traditions have evolved their craft to carve
                          for the world market. After all they have the
                          familial talent, traditon and understanding to carry
                          on and expand. Further, the decline of African arts
                          and crafts should not be laid at the feet of
                          Christianity. The single biggest culprit is the
                          influence of European civilization through trade and
                          colonial structure. In pre-colonial times
                          blacksmiths, potters, weavers and carvers created and
                          carried forth tribally identifiable craft traditions
                          that were both vital and pervasive. These craftsmen
                          and women directly or through trade created everything
                          people material object from combs to hoes, to houses
                          to jewelry and clothing. Very early on European
                          foundries were stamping out hoe blades, printing
                          African patterned cloth and casting bronze bangles and
                          bars. Colonial administrations in some regions banned
                          traditional iron smelting to monopolize the trade in
                          steel. As manufactured goods flooded African markets
                          the craftspeople saw their markets undermined. At the
                          same time foreigners were buying the odd stool and
                          figurine, shifting the market bit by bit from cultural
                          goods to tourist market wares. As Ann points out, the
                          apprentice systems were broken down. Tourists and
                          foreign consumers became more numerous and less
                          demanding and connections with the traditional past
                          withered. Religion has played a significant role of
                          course but Islam is at least as much to blame for the
                          loss of tradition as Christianity. Finally a very
                          important factor in all of this is the increasing ease
                          of travel and communication that bean with the advent
                          of steam ships and and raailways and continues today
                          with taxis, trucks and planes. Not only are once
                          neighboring tribes now sharing cities and towns they
                          also share national identities and artistic
                          influences. Today Bamun and Zulu artisans skim the
                          same Tribal art magazines and carve while listening to
                          the latest Congolese hit recorded in Belgium. The
                          blending of styles is but one aspect of the
                          genericisation of both authentic and commercial
                          African art- a process that has been underway for well
                          over a hundred years and which will continue for years
                          to come.


                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                          Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                        • Ann Porteus
                          Thank you Amyas, I was a little brief on the history. I agree with all that you have written. Africa has traded with the world for centuries. Beautiful museum
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 8, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thank you Amyas,
                            I was a little brief on the history. I agree with all that you have written.
                            Africa has traded with the world for centuries. Beautiful museum examples of ivory salt mills carved for the Portuguese I think in the 14th century are fine examples of this.
                            Islam and Christianity have both had a role in the decline of African traditions but it is also interesting to note the numbers of Art dealers particularly in West Africa who are Muslim.
                             I think that Islam differed from the Christians in that they do allow and probably encouraged the trade of art whereas some Christian groups still actively promote fear of the traditional practices as well as the carvings and objects used to support them. 
                            I have been told that they represent the devil and have met young people who are afraid to even look at the carvings from their culture. Christians wanted exclusivity and villagers were and are still encouraged to burn their cultural objects.
                            I am not sure about the past but I have been told in villages in Mali where the people are now Muslim that Islam accepts their traditional gods so long as Allah remains the highest god. They can still practice their traditional cultural ceremonies so long as they remain within the rule of Islam. 
                            There are many Christians who practice both their traditional religions as well as attending church each week but this freedom has declined rapidly with the advance of the more fundamentalist Christian groups.
                            I am not sure about the influence of other religions. Have a look at the Buddhist "fetish" that I purchased in Cameroon last month on my Flickr page!
                            When I explained the Buddha to the trader he had no knowledge of other religions but there were young people in the group who were able to explain Buddhism to him.
                            Thank you again for your excellent contribution.
                            ann

                            On 09/12/2007, at 2:17 PM, amyas naegeleLast Name wrote:

                            Both Rand and Ann have written convincingly and fairly
                            accurately on this issue, but don't agree with Ann on
                            all the history here. For one, it shouldn't be
                            surprising that the countries with the strongest
                            carving traditions have evolved their craft to carve
                            for the world market. After all they have the
                            familial talent, traditon and understanding to carry
                            on and expand. Further, the decline of African arts
                            and crafts should not be laid at the feet of
                            Christianity. The single biggest culprit is the
                            influence of European civilization through trade and
                            colonial structure. In pre-colonial times
                            blacksmiths, potters, weavers and carvers created and
                            carried forth tribally identifiable craft traditions
                            that were both vital and pervasive. These craftsmen
                            and women directly or through trade created everything
                            people material object from combs to hoes, to houses
                            to jewelry and clothing. Very early on European
                            foundries were stamping out hoe blades, printing
                            African patterned cloth and casting bronze bangles and
                            bars. Colonial administrations in some regions banned
                            traditional iron smelting to monopolize the trade in
                            steel. As manufactured goods flooded African markets
                            the craftspeople saw their markets undermined. At the
                            same time foreigners were buying the odd stool and
                            figurine, shifting the market bit by bit from cultural
                            goods to tourist market wares. As Ann points out, the
                            apprentice systems were broken down. Tourists and
                            foreign consumers became more numerous and less
                            demanding and connections with the traditional past
                            withered. Religion has played a significant role of
                            course but Islam is at least as much to blame for the
                            loss of tradition as Christianity. Finally a very
                            important factor in all of this is the increasing ease
                            of travel and communication that bean with the advent
                            of steam ships and and raailways and continues today
                            with taxis, trucks and planes. Not only are once
                            neighboring tribes now sharing cities and towns they
                            also share national identities and artistic
                            influences. Today Bamun and Zulu artisans skim the
                            same Tribal art magazines and carve while listening to
                            the latest Congolese hit recorded in Belgium. The
                            blending of styles is but one aspect of the
                            genericisation of both authentic and commercial
                            African art- a process that has been underway for well
                            over a hundred years and which will continue for years
                            to come. 

                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                            Looking for last minute shopping deals? 
                            Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping


                          • Boubacar Doumbia
                            Thank you my dear Kamiyas.This is a kind of true that i have never seen yet on this forum. The Pasters of those first churches ain our African countries was
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 9, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thank you my dear Kamiyas.This is a kind of true that i have never seen yet on this forum.
                              The Pasters of those first churches ain our African countries was the first to start exporting freely our Arts peaces.The banishing of carvings did start since Moses time,but for us in Africa to no that it is something that the creator do not want us to adore,that begun at the time of the Arabe invasion in Africa thru Egypt then all along the coast call the Magreb.During the colonisation nothing as Arts was bought by the rulers...


                              Master Doumbia Boubacar,4th.Degree Black Belt,World-Taekwondo-Federation.--Arts restoration and Trading...


                              Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.