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Re: Turtle shell mask

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  • Craig Lewis
    Tim, I have to go against your advice to buy a fake turtle shell mask, a wooden one maybe, if thats what you like but a recent fake turtle shell mask, NO,NO,NO
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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      Tim,
      I have to go against your advice to buy a fake turtle shell mask, a
      wooden one maybe, if thats what you like but a recent fake turtle
      shell mask, NO,NO,NO !!!

      See my previous post on this subject about the legality and also in
      my opinion the morals of buying a fake piece of art that some poor
      creature has died for.

      If you buy and import masks like this you can face legal proceedings
      and at the least have the piece confescated, so again if anyone is
      thinking of buying anything made of turtle shell, ivory, animal
      skins, feathers etc make sure it is legal and that you have a rock
      solid provenance for pieces claiming to be antique.
      regards
      Craig



      --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Tim Michiels <timmichiels@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      > The information I provided was a general guideline.
      > 1 rule can be applied without any discussion: A mask must have
      been used at least once or it cannot be classified as an authentic
      piece.
      > If the ritual in which the mask is used is just "the wearer
      sitting on a stool for 5 minutes" than the mask will have virtually
      no signs of wear… I understand.
      > Try and find out what the mask was used for and how often. If
      this ritual takes place every month and your mask is supposed to be
      30 years old, than there should be signs. Or if you know the ritual
      takes a whole day and the wearer is supposed to dance and perhaps
      other participants throw certain fluids at the dancer you should find
      residues and the holes of the strings should have some sign of wear.
      > Just pulling a string through a hole (depending on the size)
      already removes tiny splinters that can be seen on the inside of
      certain drilling holes. You see small splinters in the holes you've
      got 99% chance it's a fake. Simple test : Try yourself to pull a
      string through the hole and see how much colour or splinters come of.
      >
      > But we are talking African art here and it's very difficult to
      have a general guideline that can be used to identify the
      authenticity of a piece.
      >
      > Just try and keep in mind that:
      > · If a piece has clean holes you can start doubting.
      > · If it has no signs of wear you can start doubting even
      more.
      > · If you rub the piece with your thumb and the spot
      becomes pale very easily you can start thinking it was coloured to
      look old.
      > · Try and imagine how a piece would be stored in Africa;
      they DO NOT put these masks, statues or whatever on a nice display.
      For them this is an object that is USED. It is stored under a bed in
      a hut…termites can eat their way in the wood…or perhaps it's not even
      wrapped in a piece of cloth so it is just lying on it's back so take
      your piece put on a table a see where it touches the surface. These
      spots should be worn, damaged, And At Least NOT CLEAN.
      > · If, if, if...
      >
      > Copiers are getting better and better so many signs can be faked,
      it's rather the combination of all these that will help you identify
      the authenticity.
      >
      > Just small pieces that will help you solve this mysterious puzzle
      and that's what makes African art so fascinating!
      >
      > But if you like piece and you know it's a fake just buy it.
      > How many people have posters? These are reproductions of an
      original as well. How many people have an Eifel tower, an Atomium or
      a Statue of Liberty in their living room? All copies but if it fits
      in your interior and sets the mood right…why not?
      > Perhaps you will never find an original so enjoy what you can get!
      >
      > Cheers
      >
      > Tim
      >
      >
      >
      > bissikrima46000 <bissikrima46000@...> wrote:
      >
      > 1) Greetings Tim,
      > I have seen some serious pieces large and small with relative age (
      some straight out of the national museum of Guinee (Conakry) ) that
      are not worn at the back of the holes, does that make them
      inauthentic ? some even look and smell like they have been dipped in
      the sewer and have all the signs that they have been worn. As well
      interestingly i have seen some with the worn holes that don't show
      any signs that they have been worn. I am wondering if some of the
      ones that show wear at the back of the holes were man made rather
      than the strings rubbing while wearing ! Gerald
      >
      > 2) JOHN: " if you love it and paid a fair price for it, enjoy
      > it and forget about keeping up with your neighbor's
      > opinion. ". that's really the ultimate crux of the
      > matter, thanks John for your wise words ! Gerald
      >
      > > Hi Markus,
      > >
      > > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room
      can't be bad!
      > > If you like it, buy it.
      > > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the
      mask would touch the
      > face of the dancer. The best way to know where to look for marks is
      to hold the mask in
      > front of your face and pretend you would wear this and imagine to
      be jumping around
      > with it. Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if
      these spots are warn on
      > the inside.
      > > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled
      holes means it was
      > never used and made for tourists or in-experienced collectors like
      us... (o;
      > > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable
      price for a fake but
      > nice looking mask.
      > >
      > > Regards
      > >
      > > Tim
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > escultura78 <markuswurm@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello!
      > > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The
      reason why I want to know
      > more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an
      antiquity dealer in
      > Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old
      collection for sale. It was
      > very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african
      artifacts, but I think
      > most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed,
      that this antiquity
      > dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is
      a very good looking Lega
      > mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But
      considering that many masks
      > which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely
      that the turtle shell mask was
      > made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there
      are no turtle shell masks
      > in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there
      were made only a few
      > for tourists because they look so pretty?
      > > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
      http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/
      > African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7
      > > Markus
      > > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, dwolf22@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Marcus,
      > > >
      > > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago ....
      it was mostly
      > > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple
      but striking
      > > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
      thinking his
      > > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
      > > >
      > > > Daniel
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ************************************** See what's new at
      http://www.aol.com
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________
      > > Do You Yahoo!?
      > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      > > http://mail.yahoo.com
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      > http://mail.yahoo.com
      >
    • amyas naegeleLast Name
      Judging wear to holes in a mask has to take into consideration how the holes were employed with regard to the sting. If the holes support a chord afixing the
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Judging wear to holes in a mask has to take into
        consideration how the holes were employed with regard
        to the sting. If the holes support a chord afixing
        the mask to the face the wear would be more profound
        than those in a mask where the holes were used to
        attach a fiber or cloth head piece for example. In
        many cases some holes are used and others not used.
        Splinters in holes may in fact be fiber residue.
        Lastly, fkaers no all aout rope wear and face wear and
        are reasonably good at simulating it when they feel
        the need.

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • Tim Michiels
        Craig, The first sentence in my reply was : The information I provided was a general guideline. I was not referring to turtle masks but giving advice in
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Craig,
           
          The first sentence in my reply was :
          " The information I provided was a general guideline. "
          I was not referring to turtle masks but giving advice in general in order to find out if a piece is a touristic piece of art made for decorational purposes or if it is a genuine object which was actually used somewhere in Africa.
           
          I do agree one should avoid buying art made from endangered species.
          I remember back in the 80’s when we lived in Africa, poachers came to our house to sell rhino horn, skulls of leopard and many other items. We always refused even when the price was very, very attractive. It broke my heart seeing these animals being killed for the sake of a trophy. We always were stuck with a dilemma : should we report this to the police and perhaps the guy will get killed, (or your family might be attacked the very next day by his companions) or just close your eyes, tell the man you’re not interested and show him you do not approve. If you have a family you WILL choose the latter.
           
          Regards
          Tim


          Craig Lewis <craig_n_emma@...> wrote:
          Tim,
          I have to go against your advice to buy a fake turtle shell mask, a
          wooden one maybe, if thats what you like but a recent fake turtle
          shell mask, NO,NO,NO !!!

          See my previous post on this subject about the legality and also in
          my opinion the morals of buying a fake piece of art that some poor
          creature has died for.

          If you buy and import masks like this you can face legal proceedings
          and at the least have the piece confescated, so again if anyone is
          thinking of buying anything made of turtle shell, ivory, animal
          skins, feathers etc make sure it is legal and that you have a rock
          solid provenance for pieces claiming to be antique.
          regards
          Craig

          --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Tim Michiels <timmichiels@ ...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > The information I provided was a general guideline.
          > 1 rule can be applied without any discussion: A mask must have
          been used at least once or it cannot be classified as an authentic
          piece.
          > If the ritual in which the mask is used is just "the wearer
          sitting on a stool for 5 minutes" than the mask will have virtually
          no signs of wear… I understand.
          > Try and find out what the mask was used for and how often. If
          this ritual takes place every month and your mask is supposed to be
          30 years old, than there should be signs. Or if you know the ritual
          takes a whole day and the wearer is supposed to dance and perhaps
          other participants throw certain fluids at the dancer you should find
          residues and the holes of the strings should have some sign of wear.
          > Just pulling a string through a hole (depending on the size)
          already removes tiny splinters that can be seen on the inside of
          certain drilling holes. You see small splinters in the holes you've
          got 99% chance it's a fake. Simple test : Try yourself to pull a
          string through the hole and see how much colour or splinters come of.
          >
          > But we are talking African art here and it's very difficult to
          have a general guideline that can be used to identify the
          authenticity of a piece.
          >
          > Just try and keep in mind that:
          > · If a piece has clean holes you can start doubting.
          > · If it has no signs of wear you can start doubting even
          more.
          > · If you rub the piece with your thumb and the spot
          becomes pale very easily you can start thinking it was coloured to
          look old.
          > · Try and imagine how a piece would be stored in Africa;
          they DO NOT put these masks, statues or whatever on a nice display.
          For them this is an object that is USED. It is stored under a bed in
          a hut…termites can eat their way in the wood…or perhaps it's not even
          wrapped in a piece of cloth so it is just lying on it's back so take
          your piece put on a table a see where it touches the surface. These
          spots should be worn, damaged, And At Least NOT CLEAN.
          > · If, if, if...
          >
          > Copiers are getting better and better so many signs can be faked,
          it's rather the combination of all these that will help you identify
          the authenticity.
          >
          > Just small pieces that will help you solve this mysterious puzzle
          and that's what makes African art so fascinating!
          >
          > But if you like piece and you know it's a fake just buy it.
          > How many people have posters? These are reproductions of an
          original as well. How many people have an Eifel tower, an Atomium or
          a Statue of Liberty in their living room? All copies but if it fits
          in your interior and sets the mood right…why not?
          > Perhaps you will never find an original so enjoy what you can get!
          >
          > Cheers
          >
          > Tim
          >
          >
          >
          > bissikrima46000 <bissikrima46000@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > 1) Greetings Tim,
          > I have seen some serious pieces large and small with relative age (
          some straight out of the national museum of Guinee (Conakry) ) that
          are not worn at the back of the holes, does that make them
          inauthentic ? some even look and smell like they have been dipped in
          the sewer and have all the signs that they have been worn. As well
          interestingly i have seen some with the worn holes that don't show
          any signs that they have been worn. I am wondering if some of the
          ones that show wear at the back of the holes were man made rather
          than the strings rubbing while wearing ! Gerald
          >
          > 2) JOHN: " if you love it and paid a fair price for it, enjoy
          > it and forget about keeping up with your neighbor's
          > opinion. ". that's really the ultimate crux of the
          > matter, thanks John for your wise words ! Gerald
          >
          > > Hi Markus,
          > >
          > > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room
          can't be bad!
          > > If you like it, buy it.
          > > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the
          mask would touch the
          > face of the dancer. The best way to know where to look for marks is
          to hold the mask in
          > front of your face and pretend you would wear this and imagine to
          be jumping around
          > with it. Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if
          these spots are warn on
          > the inside.
          > > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled
          holes means it was
          > never used and made for tourists or in-experienced collectors like
          us... (o;
          > > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable
          price for a fake but
          > nice looking mask.
          > >
          > > Regards
          > >
          > > Tim
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > escultura78 <markuswurm@ > wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello!
          > > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The
          reason why I want to know
          > more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an
          antiquity dealer in
          > Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old
          collection for sale. It was
          > very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african
          artifacts, but I think
          > most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed,
          that this antiquity
          > dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is
          a very good looking Lega
          > mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But
          considering that many masks
          > which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely
          that the turtle shell mask was
          > made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there
          are no turtle shell masks
          > in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there
          were made only a few
          > for tourists because they look so pretty?
          > > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
          http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/
          > African_Arts/ photos/view/ 8c89?b=7
          > > Markus
          > > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, dwolf22@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Marcus,
          > > >
          > > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago ....
          it was mostly
          > > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple
          but striking
          > > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
          thinking his
          > > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
          > > >
          > > > Daniel
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at
          http://www.aol. com
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > > http://mail. yahoo.com
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail. yahoo.com
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com

        • woolygums
          Tim, Thank you for your well thought out reply. Sometimes we do not realize the dangers inherent in situations in other countries (than the USA). I turned down
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment

            Tim,

             

            Thank you for your well thought out reply. Sometimes we do not realize the dangers inherent in situations in other countries (than the USA ).

             

            I turned down a bear paw bag from an endangered species in Nagaland. It was recent and I could not bring myself to buy it because I was concerned they might go kill more bears for their paws.

             

            I do have ivory pieces that seem to be pre CITES ban, but you never know. This is always a difficult question, but I agree with Craig that we must hold the line against recent items that belong to endangered species.

             

            One problem is being able to decide how old something really is. This is usually a personal call.

             

            I just bought a mounted Tsavo lion that came with paperwork attesting to its legality.

             

            Bill

             


            From: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Tim Michiels
            Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 9:36 AM
            To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Turtle shell mask

             

            Craig,

             

            The first sentence in my reply was :

            " The information I provided was a general guideline. "

            I was not referring to turtle masks but giving advice in general in order to find out if a piece is a touristic piece of art made for decorational purposes or if it is a genuine object which was actually used somewhere in Africa.

             

            I do agree one should avoid buying art made from endangered species.

            I remember back in the 80’s when we lived in Africa , poachers came to our house to sell rhino horn, skulls of leopard and many other items. We alays refused even when the price was very, very attractive. It broke my heart seeing these animals being killed for the sake of a trophy. We always were stuck with a dilemma : should we report this to the police and perhaps the guy will get killed, (or your family might be attacked the very next day by his companions) or just close your eyes, tell the man you’re not interested and show him you do not approve. If you have a family you WILL choose the latter.

             

            Regards

            Tim



            Craig Lewis <craig_n_emma@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:

            Tim,
            I have to go against your advice to buy a fake turtle shell mask, a
            wooden one maybe, if thats what you likebut a recent fake turtle
            shell mask, NO,NO,NO !!!

            See my previous post on this subject about the legality and also in
            my opinion the morals of buying a fake piece of art that some poor
            creature has died for.

            If you buy and import masks like this you can face legal proceedings
            and at the least have the piece confescated, so again if anyone is
            thinking of buying anything made of turtle shell, ivory, animal
            skins, feathers etc make sure it is legal and that you have a rock
            solid provenance for pieces claiming to be antique.
            regards
            Craig

            --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Tim Michiels <timmichiels@ ...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > The information I provided was a general guideline.
            > 1 rule can be applied without any discussion: A mask must have
            been used at least once or it cannot be classified as an authentic
            piece.
            > If the ritual in which the mask is used is just "the wearer
            sitting on a stool for 5 minutes" than the mask will have virtually
            no signs of wear… I understand.
            > Try and find out what the mask was used for and how often. If
            this ritual takes place every month and your mask is supposed to be
            30 years old, than there should be signs. Or if you know the ritual
            takes a whole day and the wearer is supposed to dance and perhaps
            other participants throw certain fluids at the dancer you should find
            residues and the holes of the strings should have some sign of wear.
            > Just pulling a string through a hole (depending on the size)
            already removes tiny splinters that can be seen on the inside of
            certain drilling holes. You see small splinters in the holes you've
            got 99% chance it's a fake. Simple test : Try yourself to pull a
            string through the hole and see how much colour or splinters come of.
            >
            > But we are talking African art here and it's very difficult to
            have a general guideline that can be used to identify the
            authenticity of a piece.
            >
            > Just try and keep in mind that:
            > · If a piece has clean holes you can start doubting.
            > · If it has no signs of wear you can start doubting even
            more.
            > · If you rub the piece with your thumb and the spot
            becomes pale very easily you can start thinking it was coloured to
            look old.
            > · Try and imagine how a piece would be stored in Africa ;
            they DO NOT put these masks, statues or whatever on a nice display.
            For them this is an object that is USED. It is stored under a bed in
            a hut…termites can eat their way in the wood…or perhaps it's not even
            wrapped in a piece of cloth so it is just lying on it's back so take
            your piece put on a table a see where it touches the surface. These
            spots should be worn, damaged, And At Least NOT CLEAN.
            > · If, if, if...
            >
            > Copiers are getting better and better so many signs can be faked,
            it's rather the combination of all these that will help you identify
            the authenticity.
            >
            > Just small pieces that will help you solve this mysterious puzzle
            and that's what makes African art so fascinating!
            >
            > But if you like piece and you know it's a fake just buy it.
            > How many people have posters? These are reproductions of an
            original as well. How many people have an Eifel tower, an Atomium or
            a Statue of Liberty in their living room? All copies but if it fits
            in your interior and sets the mood right…why not?
            > Perhaps you will never find an original so enjoy what you can get!
            >
            > Cheers
            >
            > Tim
            >
            >
            >
            > bissikrima46000 <bissikrima46000@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > 1) Greetings Tim,
            > I have seen some serious pieces large and small with relative age (
            some straight out of the national museum of Guinee ( Conakry ) ) that
            are not worn at the back of the holes, does that make them
            inauthentic ? some even look and smell like they have been dipped in
            the sewer and have all the signs that they have been worn. As well
            interestingly i have seen some with the worn holes that don't show
            any signs that they have been worn. I am wondering if some of the
            ones that show wear at the back of the holes were man made rather
            than the strings rubbing while wearing ! Gerald
            >
            > 2) JOHN: " if you love it and paid a fair price for it, enjoy
            > it and forget about keeping up with your neighbor's
            > opinion. ". that's really the ultimate crux of the
            > matter, thanks John for your wise words ! Gerald
            >
            > > Hi Markus,
            > >
            > > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room
            can't be bad!
            > > If you like it, buy it.
            > > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the
            mask would touch the
            > face of the dancer. The best way to know where to look for marks is
            to hold the mask in
            > front of your face and pretend you would wear this and imagine to
            be jumping around
            > with it. Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if
            these spots are warn on
            > the inside.
            > > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled
            holes means it was
            > never used and made for tourists or in-experienced collectors like
            us... (o;
            > > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable
            price for a fake but
            > nice looking mask.
            > >
            > > Regards
            > >
            > > Tim
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > escultura78 <markuswurm@ > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello!
            > > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The
            reason why I want to know
            > more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an
            antiquity dealer in
            > Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old
            collection for sale. It was
            > very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african
            artifacts, but I think
            > most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed,
            that this antiquity
            > dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is
            a very good looking Lega
            > mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But
            considering that many masks
            > which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely
            that the turtle shell mask was
            > made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there
            are no turtle shell masks
            > in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there
            were made only a few
            > for tourists because they look so pretty?
            > > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
            http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/
            > African_Arts/ photos/view/ 8c89?b=7
            > > Markus
            > > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, dwolf22@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Marcus,
            > > >
            > > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago ....
            it was mostly
            > > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple
            but striking
            > > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
            thinking his
            > > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
            > > >
            > > > Daniel
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at
            http://www.aol. com
            &g; > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
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          • Bob Ibold
            The subject of holes on the back of masks reminds me of a classic Songye Kifwebe I purchased this year. It is well carved, has a gorgeous old-looking patina,
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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              The subject of holes on the back of masks reminds me of a classic Songye Kifwebe I purchased this year. It is well carved, has a gorgeous old-looking patina, and well-worn holes. But the wear on the holes is a bit too consistent. I think the mask is a fake.

              It is a beautiful piece and I paid very little for it. In fact, I rarely pay more than the "fake" price for any African mask, whether it is authentic or not. Reproducing tribal art objects dates back to the 19th century and has become a huge business in Africa. The techniques of making something look old are highly developed there. I suspect that most of the "old, authentic" masks being sold today are fake.

              Bob


              At 08:59 AM 11/5/2007, you wrote:

              Judging wear to holes in a mask has to take into
              consideration how the holes were employed with regard
              to the sting. If the holes support a chord afixing
              the mask to the face the wear would be more profound
              than those in a mask where the holes were used to
              attach a fiber or cloth head piece for example. In
              many cases some holes are used and others not used.
              Splinters in holes may in fact be fiber residue.
              Lastly, fkaers no all aout rope wear and face wear and
              are reasonably good at simulating it when they feel
              the need.

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            • Florent Morio
              Hi Bob, Do you have some pictures of your Kifwebe ? Best regards, Florent 17:59 05/11/2007, you wrote: The subject of holes on the back of masks reminds me of
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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                Hi Bob,

                Do you have some pictures of your Kifwebe ?

                Best regards,

                Florent



                17:59 05/11/2007, you wrote:

                The subject of holes on the back of masks reminds me of a classic Songye Kifwebe I purchased this year. It is well carved, has a gorgeous old-looking patina, and well-worn holes. But the wear on the holes is a bit too consistent. I think the mask is a fake.

                It is a beautiful piece and I paid very little for it. In fact, I rarely pay more than the "fake" price for any African mask, whether it is authentic or not. Reproducing tribal art objects dates back to the 19th century and has become a huge business in Africa. The techniques of making something look old are highly developed there. I suspect that most of the "old, authentic" masks being sold today are fake.

                Bob


                At 08:59 AM 11/5/2007, you wrote:

                Judging wear to holes in a mask has to take into
                consideration how the holes were employed with regard
                to the sting. If the holes support a chord afixing
                the mask to the face the wear would be more profound
                than those in a mask where the holes were used to
                attach a fiber or cloth head piece for example. In
                many cases some holes are used and others not used.
                Splinters in holes may in fact be fiber residue.
                Lastly, fkaers no all aout rope wear and face wear and
                are reasonably good at simulating it when they feel
                the need.

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com


                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM

                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.19/1106 - Release Date: 02/11/2007 21:46
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              • DZ Levine
                So, how does one protect oneself? Having lived awhile I find that sometimes even friends will fox you. (As an old friend once said when he described someone,
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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                  So, how does one protect oneself? Having lived awhile I find that sometimes even friends will "fox" you. (As an old friend once said when he described someone, "He may fox you but he won't f___ you.")
                  I think the bottom line is: buy what moves you! If it doesn't appeal to you, if it isn't something you'd want to live with and love and that will enhance your life, DON'T BUY IT!
                  Heck, even the experts get fooled! I know a woman who does restorations of Native American pieces for museums like the Smithsonian. She told me that if she wanted to she could make pieces that are indistinguishable from the real thing, even by objective testing. She doesn't, of course, because it is against her principles and ethics.
                  Unless I've seen a piece used in ceremony, or unless its history could be documented I would buy it with a grain of salt.....and money, of course.

                   David Levine
                  360-535-3875

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                • amyas naegeleLast Name
                  My advice would be to never buy anything on the spot unless you are 100% sure and the price and situation are right: ie you go to a tag sale and there s a Dan
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 6, 2007
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                    My advice would be to never buy anything on the spot
                    unless you are 100% sure and the price and situation
                    are right: ie you go to a tag sale and there's a Dan
                    mask with an old label and a tagged price of $75!
                    Everything else is on hold because you forgot your
                    wallet or you have to ask the spouse. Established
                    dealers with great reputations are a different story
                    and I don't mean a guy with a van you've known for 17
                    years. Take pictures of the mask and share it with
                    collectors you know and respect. If the mask has
                    provenance see if you can establish the facts. Check
                    the back, the wear on any holes. Check your books and
                    local museum and compare the style, manner of carving,
                    scale and patina. Show the mask to someone
                    knowledgeable. Test areas of wear with acetone.
                    Patina of wear in general never washes off. I see a
                    lot of material and I still get fooled: sometimes for
                    a minute, sometimes for an hour or a day or a week.
                    Fakes will usually reveal their true natures eventually.

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