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Turtle shell mask

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  • escultura78
    Hello! Can someone help me? I thought that I have seen a turtle shell mask in one of my books. Maybe I am wrong because I cannot find the picture of the mask
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 28, 2007
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      Hello!

      Can someone help me? I thought that I have seen a turtle shell mask in
      one of my books. Maybe I am wrong because I cannot find the picture of
      the mask any more, but I can't find an example (which can be taken
      serious) in the web too. Has anyone seen a african mask made of turtle
      shell? I would appreciate every information.

      Thanks in advance
      Markus
    • theshamangallery
      I dont recall seeing any African Turtle shell masks , but Papua new Guinea Tribes as well as Alaskan Eskimo tribes used turtle shell for masks. - Todd
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 29, 2007
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        I dont recall seeing any African Turtle shell masks , but Papua new
        Guinea Tribes as well as Alaskan Eskimo tribes used turtle shell for
        masks.

        - Todd

        --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, "escultura78" <markuswurm@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello!
        >
        > Can someone help me? I thought that I have seen a turtle shell mask in
        > one of my books. Maybe I am wrong because I cannot find the picture of
        > the mask any more, but I can't find an example (which can be taken
        > serious) in the web too. Has anyone seen a african mask made of turtle
        > shell? I would appreciate every information.
        >
        > Thanks in advance
        > Markus
        >
      • Bouillie Jean-Pierre
        The lega have some !!! escultura78 a écrit : Hello! Can someone help me? I thought that I have seen a turtle
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 29, 2007
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          The lega have some !!!

          escultura78 <markuswurm@...> a écrit :
          Hello!

          Can someone help me? I thought that I have seen a turtle shell mask in
          one of my books. Maybe I am wrong because I cannot find the picture of
          the mask any more, but I can't find an example (which can be taken
          serious) in the web too. Has anyone seen a african mask made of turtle
          shell? I would appreciate every information.

          Thanks in advance
          Markus



          Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. Téléchargez la version beta.

        • dwolf22@aol.com
          Marcus, I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it was mostly flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple but
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 29, 2007
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            Marcus,
             
            I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it was mostly flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple but striking ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm thinking his attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
             
            Daniel




            See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
          • escultura78
            Hello! Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The reason why I want to know more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 30, 2007
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              Hello!

              Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The reason why I want to know more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an antiquity dealer in Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old collection for sale. It was very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african artifacts, but I think most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed, that this antiquity dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is a very good looking Lega mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts.  But considering that many masks which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely that the turtle shell mask was made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there are no turtle shell masks in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there were made only a few for tourists because they look so pretty?

              See the photo of the mask I am talking about: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7 

              Markus

              --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, dwolf22@... wrote:
              >
              > Marcus,
              >
              > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it was mostly
              > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple but striking
              > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm thinking his
              > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
              >
              > Daniel
              >
              >
              >
              > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
              >

            • bissikrima46000
              ... you are buying ( ritual artifact or whatever ). In my view there are some very good old and contemporary african art worth owning. There has been
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 30, 2007
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                --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, "escultura78" <markuswurm@...> wrote:
                >
                > Greetings Markus, it doesn't matter what you buy as long as you love it and know what
                you are buying ( ritual artifact or whatever ). In my view there are some very good old and
                contemporary african art worth owning. There has been unfortunately a mode of thinking
                that if its not an artifact it has no merit, very unfair and so wrong. That being said in
                african art like in any other there is quality and junk ! regards Gerald
                > Hello!
                >
                > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The reason why
                > I want to know more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a
                > visited an antiquity dealer in Munich/Germany who offered african
                > objects from a huge old collection for sale. It was very impressed
                > walking through his - I guess - thousands of african artifacts, but I
                > think most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I
                > noticed, that this antiquity dealer offers objects from this collection
                > again and that there is a very good looking Lega mask made of
                > tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But considering that many masks
                > which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely that
                > the turtle shell mask was made for the tourist market too... In addition
                > it seems that there are no turtle shell masks in museums or famous
                > private collections. Is it possible that there were made only a few for
                > tourists because they look so pretty?
                >
                > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
                > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7
                > <http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7>
                >
                > Markus
                >
                >
                > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Marcus,
                > >
                > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it was
                > mostly
                > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple but
                > striking
                > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm thinking
                > his
                > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                > >
                > > Daniel
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ************************************** See what's new at
                > http://www.aol.com
                > >
                >
              • Tim Michiels
                Hi Markus, This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room can t be bad! If you like it, buy it. Check on the back of the mask if there are
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 31, 2007
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                  Hi Markus,
                   
                  This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room can't be bad!
                  If you like it, buy it.
                  Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the mask would touch the face of the dancer. The best way to know where to look for marks is to hold the mask in front of your face and pretend you would wear this and imagine to be jumping around with it. Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if these spots are warn on the inside.
                  The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled holes means it was never used and made for tourists or in-experienced collectors like us... (o;
                  If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable price for a fake but nice looking mask.
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  Tim
                   
                   


                  escultura78 <markuswurm@...> wrote:
                  Hello!
                  Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The reason why I want to know more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an antiquity dealer in Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old collection for sale. It was very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african artifacts, but I think most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed, that this antiquity dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is a very good looking Lega mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts.  But considering that many masks which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely that the turtle shell mask was made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there are no turtle shell masks in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there were made only a few for tourists because they look so pretty?
                  See the photo of the mask I am talking about: http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ view/8c89? b=7 
                  Markus
                  --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, dwolf22@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Marcus,
                  >
                  > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it was mostly
                  > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple but striking
                  > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm thinking his
                  > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                  >
                  > Daniel
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at http://www.aol. com
                  >

                  __________________________________________________
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                • escultura78
                  Hello! Thanks Tim and Gerald for your answers to my question about the turtle shell mask. I think that you are both right in considering an African object as a
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 31, 2007
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                    Hello!

                    Thanks Tim and Gerald for your answers to my question about the
                    turtle shell mask. I think that you are both right in considering an
                    African object as a work of art more than an artefact. I have some
                    objects in my collection too which certainly have never been tribally
                    used, but I like them. However, I always want to know if an object
                    had a certain purpose in the society which it comes from, what this
                    purpose was, and how it was used. But I know as well that it is
                    sometimes hard to distinguish between categories and that there are
                    no clear borders between them.
                    A few days ago I came across something which shows how unclear the
                    border between african and western invention is: Z. S. Strother
                    describes in her book "inventing masks" how the wooden TUNDU mask
                    from the Western Pende was invented. She cites one man who recounted
                    that a Belgian visitor suggested to carvers that they should carve
                    the facepiece of Tundu from wood and that it would sell well. Until
                    this time (about the mid of the 20th century) tundu masks were only
                    made of straw, but since then a new wooden type of mask was produced
                    and foreign as well as indigenous people loved it.... In a wider
                    sense this type of mask was invented by a Belgian. Sometimes one and
                    the same carver worked for his own village and the western marked.
                    What is the difference between one mask made for "tribally" use and
                    one made for the tourist market if both were elaborately carved from
                    the same artist? I do not know. I think you are right: The most
                    important is that we like the mask.

                    Markus


                    --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Tim Michiels <timmichiels@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Markus,
                    >
                    > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room
                    can't be bad!
                    > If you like it, buy it.
                    > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the
                    mask would touch the face of the dancer. The best way to know where
                    to look for marks is to hold the mask in front of your face and
                    pretend you would wear this and imagine to be jumping around with it.
                    Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if these spots
                    are warn on the inside.
                    > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled
                    holes means it was never used and made for tourists or in-experienced
                    collectors like us... (o;
                    > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable
                    price for a fake but nice looking mask.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > Tim
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > escultura78 <markuswurm@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello!
                    > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The
                    reason why I want to know more about this type of mask is: About two
                    years ago a visited an antiquity dealer in Munich/Germany who offered
                    african objects from a huge old collection for sale. It was very
                    impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african
                    artifacts, but I think most of them were made for the tourist market.
                    Last week I noticed, that this antiquity dealer offers objects from
                    this collection again and that there is a very good looking Lega mask
                    made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But considering that
                    many masks which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is
                    likely that the turtle shell mask was made for the tourist market
                    too... In addition it seems that there are no turtle shell masks in
                    museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there were
                    made only a few for tourists because they look so pretty?
                    > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
                    http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7
                    > Markus
                    > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Marcus,
                    > >
                    > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it
                    was mostly
                    > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple
                    but striking
                    > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
                    thinking his
                    > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                    > >
                    > > Daniel
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ************************************** See what's new at
                    http://www.aol.com
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                  • ari birnbaum
                    Markus,Tim and Gerald, Most of the people buying Art because they like it .. Or because their friends[or wife ,or girl friend ]does or because its the curent
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 31, 2007
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                      Markus,Tim and Gerald,
                      Most of the people buying Art because they like it ..
                      Or because their friends[or wife ,or girl friend ]does or because its the curent Trend...few for investment..
                      In fact if i bought years ago the Artifacts[African or other ]that I didn't like than..i will have by far better collection Today[And much more valuable].
                      I think we should  study well the area or subject of interest To us before we Make any acquisition..
                      Or  if gamble perhaps better buy artifacts that we don't like because tommorrow we will.
                      Regards,
                      Ari
                       
                       
                      -----
                       
                       
                       
                       

                      Hello!

                      Thanks Tim and Gerald for your answers to my question about the
                      turtle shell mask. I think that you are both right in considering an
                      African object as a work of art more than an artefact. I have some
                      objects in my collection too which certainly have never been tribally
                      used, but I like them. However, I always want to know if an object
                      had a certain purpose in the society which it comes from, what this
                      purpose was, and how it was used. But I know as well that it is
                      sometimes hard to distinguish between categories and that there are
                      no clear borders between them.
                      A few days ago I came across something which shows how unclear the
                      border between african and western invention is: Z. S. Strother
                      describes in her book "inventing masks" how the wooden TUNDU mask
                      from the Western Pende was invented. She cites one man who recounted
                      that a Belgian visitor suggested to carvers that they should carve
                      the facepiece of Tundu from wood and that it would sell well. Until
                      this time (about the mid of the 20th century) tundu masks were only
                      made of straw, but since then a new wooden type of mask was produced
                      and foreign as well as indigenous people loved it.... In a wider
                      sense this type of mask was invented by a Belgian. Sometimes one and
                      the same carver worked for his own village and the western marked.
                      What is the difference between one mask made for "tribally" use and
                      one made for the tourist market if both were elaborately carved from
                      the same artist? I do not know. I think you are right: The most
                      important is that we like the mask.

                      Markus

                      --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Tim Michiels <timmichiels@ ...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Markus,
                      >
                      > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room
                      can't be bad!
                      > If you like it, buy it.
                      > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the
                      mask would touch the face of the dancer. The best way to know where
                      to look for marks is to hold the mask in front of your face and
                      pretend you would wear this and imagine to be jumping around with it.
                      Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if these spots
                      are warn on the inside.
                      > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled
                      holes means it was never used and made for tourists or in-experienced
                      collectors like us... (o;
                      > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable
                      price for a fake but nice looking mask.
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > Tim
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > escultura78 <markuswurm@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello!
                      > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The
                      reason why I want to know more about this type of mask is: About two
                      years ago a visited an antiquity dealer in Munich/Germany who offered
                      african objects from a huge old collection for sale. It was very
                      impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african
                      artifacts, but I think most of them were made for the tourist market.
                      Last week I noticed, that this antiquity dealer offers objects from
                      this collection again and that there is a very good looking Lega mask
                      made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But considering that
                      many masks which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is
                      likely that the turtle shell mask was made for the tourist market
                      too... In addition it seems that there are no turtle shell masks in
                      museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there were
                      made only a few for tourists because they look so pretty?
                      > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
                      http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ view/8c89? b=7
                      > Markus
                      > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Marcus,
                      > >
                      > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it
                      was mostly
                      > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple
                      but striking
                      > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
                      thinking his
                      > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                      > >
                      > > Daniel
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at
                      http://www.aol. com
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail. yahoo.com
                      >



                      __________ NOD32 2620 (20071027) Information __________

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                    • wrecker104
                      I don t post often, however, this is a topic I deal with on a daily basis as an authenticator and an appraiser. The marketplace meaning you as the buyer
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 31, 2007
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                        I don't post often, however, this is a topic I deal with on a daily
                        basis as an authenticator and an appraiser. The marketplace meaning
                        you as the buyer defines the market. This decision depending on all
                        sorts of factors may or may not be correct. For example when one
                        believes they are buying an authentic African mask for an appropriate
                        market driven price and the object turns out to be fake, then clearly
                        a mistake has been made. Why is something so obvious even worth
                        stating? It is relevant because whatever a buyer buys if the price is
                        within parameters for that particular object in a market, any other
                        comment is subjective at best. Many of my colleagues look at
                        decorative material and dismiss it as worthless. I appraise lots of
                        decorative Tribal art and can attest that in many situations the
                        value of an object is far greater in the decorative market than it is
                        in the fine art market. A contemporaqry well carved porpianong could
                        easily be worth $5,000 - $7,000 in a decorator's showroom but would
                        languish at Sotheby's. So my point is that subjective aesthetic
                        judgments about objects are in many ways as irrelevant as an inter
                        galactic beauty contest. If you love it and paid a fair price for it,
                        enjoy it and forget about keeping up with your neighbor's opinion. JB

                        John A. Buxton, ISA CAPP
                        6717 Spring Valley Rd.
                        Dallas, Tx 75254
                        Voice: 972-239-4620
                        Fax: 972-239-9766
                        jbuxton@...
                        www.arttrak.com
                        The Tribal Art Connection
                        www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/roadshow/
                        Antiques Roadshow






                        --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Tim Michiels <timmichiels@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Markus,
                        >
                        > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room
                        can't be bad!
                        > If you like it, buy it.
                        > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the
                        mask would touch the face of the dancer. The best way to know where
                        to look for marks is to hold the mask in front of your face and
                        pretend you would wear this and imagine to be jumping around with it.
                        Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if these spots
                        are warn on the inside.
                        > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled
                        holes means it was never used and made for tourists or in-experienced
                        collectors like us... (o;
                        > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable
                        price for a fake but nice looking mask.
                        >
                        > Regards
                        >
                        > Tim
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > escultura78 <markuswurm@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello!
                        > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The
                        reason why I want to know more about this type of mask is: About two
                        years ago a visited an antiquity dealer in Munich/Germany who offered
                        african objects from a huge old collection for sale. It was very
                        impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african
                        artifacts, but I think most of them were made for the tourist market.
                        Last week I noticed, that this antiquity dealer offers objects from
                        this collection again and that there is a very good looking Lega mask
                        made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But considering that
                        many masks which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is
                        likely that the turtle shell mask was made for the tourist market
                        too... In addition it seems that there are no turtle shell masks in
                        museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there were
                        made only a few for tourists because they look so pretty?
                        > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
                        http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7
                        > Markus
                        > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Marcus,
                        > >
                        > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it
                        was mostly
                        > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple
                        but striking
                        > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
                        thinking his
                        > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                        > >
                        > > Daniel
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ************************************** See what's new at
                        http://www.aol.com
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                      • bissikrima46000
                        1) Greetings Tim, I have seen some serious pieces large and small with relative age ( some straight out of the national museum of Guinee (Conakry) ) that are
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 31, 2007
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                          1) Greetings Tim,
                          I have seen some serious pieces large and small with relative age ( some straight out of the national museum of Guinee (Conakry) ) that are not worn at the back of the holes, does that make them inauthentic ? some even look and smell like they have been dipped in the sewer and have all the signs that they have been worn. As well interestingly i have seen some with the worn holes that don't show any signs that they have been worn. I am wondering if some of the ones that show wear at the back of the holes were man made rather than the strings rubbing while wearing ! Gerald

                          2) JOHN: " if you love it and paid a fair price for it, enjoy
                          it and forget about keeping up with your neighbor's
                          opinion. ". that's really the ultimate crux of the
                          matter, thanks John for your wise words ! Gerald

                          > Hi Markus,
                          >
                          > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room can't be bad!
                          > If you like it, buy it.
                          > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the mask would touch the
                          face of the dancer. The best way to know where to look for marks is to hold the mask in
                          front of your face and pretend you would wear this and imagine to be jumping around
                          with it. Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if these spots are warn on
                          the inside.
                          > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled holes means it was
                          never used and made for tourists or in-experienced collectors like us... (o;
                          > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable price for a fake but
                          nice looking mask.
                          >
                          > Regards
                          >
                          > Tim
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > escultura78 <markuswurm@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello!
                          > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The reason why I want to know
                          more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an antiquity dealer in
                          Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old collection for sale. It was
                          very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african artifacts, but I think
                          most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed, that this antiquity
                          dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is a very good looking Lega
                          mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But considering that many masks
                          which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely that the turtle shell mask was
                          made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there are no turtle shell masks
                          in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there were made only a few
                          for tourists because they look so pretty?
                          > See the photo of the mask I am talking about: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/
                          African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7
                          > Markus
                          > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Marcus,
                          > >
                          > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it was mostly
                          > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple but striking
                          > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm thinking his
                          > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                          > >
                          > > Daniel
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                          > http://mail.yahoo.com
                          >
                        • satan luci
                          sending you the pics of a few masks from my mother s collection ( brought back from Guinee Conakry in the mid 80 s ) enjoy ! Gerald
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 31, 2007
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                            sending you the pics of a few masks from my mother's
                            collection ( brought back from Guinee Conakry in the
                            mid 80's ) enjoy ! Gerald
                          • Craig Lewis
                            All, If you are not sure of the authenticity or age of a piece such as this (or any other piece of art made from animals) it is best to stay well clear of
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 2, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              All,
                              If you are not sure of the authenticity or age of a piece such as
                              this (or any other piece of "art" made from animals) it is best to
                              stay well clear of them.
                              Some pieces are made for sale from skins,ivory, shells,feathers etc
                              of endangered species in other words rare and endangered animals are
                              dying to supply fakes and tourist art.
                              Also you could have the piece you bought confescated and destroyed
                              (ignorance of age/authenticity are no defence).
                              If buying a piece of art made from animals make sure that you buy
                              from a reputable scource and have a very good provenance.

                              www.cites.org

                              Best wishes
                              Craig






                              --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, "escultura78" <markuswurm@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello!
                              >
                              > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The reason
                              why
                              > I want to know more about this type of mask is: About two years ago
                              a
                              > visited an antiquity dealer in Munich/Germany who offered african
                              > objects from a huge old collection for sale. It was very impressed
                              > walking through his - I guess - thousands of african artifacts, but
                              I
                              > think most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I
                              > noticed, that this antiquity dealer offers objects from this
                              collection
                              > again and that there is a very good looking Lega mask made of
                              > tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But considering that many
                              masks
                              > which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely
                              that
                              > the turtle shell mask was made for the tourist market too... In
                              addition
                              > it seems that there are no turtle shell masks in museums or famous
                              > private collections. Is it possible that there were made only a few
                              for
                              > tourists because they look so pretty?
                              >
                              > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
                              > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7
                              > <http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7>
                              >
                              > Markus
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Marcus,
                              > >
                              > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it
                              was
                              > mostly
                              > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple but
                              > striking
                              > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
                              thinking
                              > his
                              > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                              > >
                              > > Daniel
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ************************************** See what's new at
                              > http://www.aol.com
                              > >
                              >
                            • walberto285
                              Be very careful with masks and artifacts made from animal products such as turtle shell, gut, hide and so on. These materials are used by tourist trade carvers
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 3, 2007
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                                Be very careful with masks and artifacts made from animal products such as turtle shell, gut,
                                hide and so on. These materials are used by tourist trade carvers because they look wild and
                                also because the deteriorate rapidly under the right conditions, making them look antique
                                after a few days in the sun. You can't find a turtle shell mask because with a few exceptions
                                they are fake.
                              • Lee Rubinstein
                                Markus: I have found surprisingly few examples and very little information regarding the use of turtle and/or tortoise shells in masks and other objects either
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 3, 2007
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                                  Markus:

                                  I have found surprisingly few examples and very little information regarding the use of turtle and/or tortoise shells in masks and other objects either as a base structure or as an embellishment.  Among the rare uses of the actual shell I encountered were as a Baule divination tool and as elements of musical instruments.  The most notable recurrent use of the turtle or tortoise shell appears in southern Africa -- particularly in Namibia and Botswana -- in these instances as containers of various sorts.  Here is an example from the AMNH (No. 90.0/5421) that is tentatively attributed to the Herero:

                                  The AMNH collection also has a beautiful group of  "compacts" made from shells by the San !Kung of Botswana:


                                  A similar example from the San (below) appears in the Hearst Museum collection as well.

                                  The lone tortoise shell MASK (about which you originally inquired) was this mask identified as Lega:

                                  Also, I came across this tortoise-shell based piece below presented as a "curio."
                                  http://www.warrenandsons.co.za/Curios.htm  (see lower left of page)

                                  Frankly, I had expected to find more examples, and it is indeed possible that I just didn't hit the right vein in my search.  Additionally, I have created a page of images of an embellished tortoise shell from Cameroon that is quite similar to the one above:


                                  Lee
                                • Markus Wurm
                                  Lee, thanks for your research on turtle shell masks. I don t think that you just didn t hit the right vein in your search - I spent a lot of time searching in
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 3, 2007
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                                    Lee,

                                    thanks for your research on turtle shell masks. I don't think that you just didn't hit the right vein in your search - I spent a lot of time searching in the web for turtle shell masks, but I didn't find many examples too (most of them from the AMNH). Perhaps this is due to the prohibition of in/export of turtle shell, which was established (I think) in the 70-ies?

                                    Markus

                                    -------- Original-Nachricht --------
                                    > Datum: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 10:52:57 -0400
                                    > Von: Lee Rubinstein <LeeRubinstein@...>
                                    > An: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Betreff: Re: RE : [African_Arts] Turtle shell mask

                                    > Markus:
                                    >
                                    > I have found surprisingly few examples and very little information
                                    > regarding the use of turtle and/or tortoise shells in masks and other
                                    > objects either as a base structure or as an embellishment. Among the
                                    > rare uses of the actual shell I encountered were as a Baule
                                    > divination tool and as elements of musical instruments. The most
                                    > notable recurrent use of the turtle or tortoise shell appears in
                                    > southern Africa -- particularly in Namibia and Botswana -- in these
                                    > instances as containers of various sorts. Here is an example from
                                    > the AMNH (No. 90.0/5421) that is tentatively attributed to the Herero:
                                    > 
                                    > The AMNH collection also has a beautiful group of "compacts" made
                                    > >from shells by the San !Kung of Botswana:
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    > A similar example from the San (below) appears in the Hearst Museum
                                    > collection as well.
                                    > http://hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/exhibitions/cent/gallery4_2_10.html
                                    >
                                    > The lone tortoise shell MASK (about which you originally inquired)
                                    > was this mask identified as Lega:
                                    > http://www.coupdefoudre.com/imageTribal/otherview/
                                    > LegaTortoiseShellMask60.jpg
                                    >
                                    > Also, I came across this tortoise-shell based piece below presented
                                    > as a "curio."
                                    > http://www.warrenandsons.co.za/Curios.htm (see lower left of page)
                                    >
                                    > Frankly, I had expected to find more examples, and it is indeed
                                    > possible that I just didn't hit the right vein in my search.
                                    > Additionally, I have created a page of images of an embellished
                                    > tortoise shell from Cameroon that is quite similar to the one above:
                                    >
                                    > http://web.mac.com/leerubinstein/Site/TortoiseShell.html
                                    >
                                    > Lee

                                    --
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                                  • amyas naegeleLast Name
                                    The !kung of Botswana and Namibia use young tortoise shells as containers for medicinal and protective substances usually herbs and bits of animul matter such
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 3, 2007
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                                      The !kung of Botswana and Namibia use young tortoise
                                      shells as containers for medicinal and protective
                                      substances usually herbs and bits of animul matter
                                      such as tufts of fur. The Samburu and Turkana
                                      occasionally make use of tortoise shells as bowls.
                                      One common form of Samburu bowl appears to have been
                                      inspired by such shells. Then there are shields from
                                      the Shilluk of Sudan which are made from the hollowed
                                      shells of river turtles. The turtle masks you see on
                                      the market are fantasies for us and a nightmare for
                                      turtles.

                                      __________________________________________________
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                                    • Tim Michiels
                                      Hi, The information I provided was a general guideline. 1 rule can be applied without any discussion: A mask must have been used at least once or it cannot be
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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                                        Hi,
                                         
                                        The information I provided was a general guideline.
                                        1 rule can be applied without any discussion: A mask must have been used at least once or it cannot be classified as an authentic piece.
                                        If the ritual in which the mask is used is just "the wearer sitting on a stool for 5 minutes" than the mask will have virtually no signs of wear… I understand.
                                        Try and find out what the mask was used for and how often. If this ritual takes place every month and your mask is supposed to be 30 years old, than there should be signs. Or if you know the ritual takes a whole day and the wearer is supposed to dance and perhaps other participants throw certain fluids at the dancer you should find residues and the holes of the strings should have some sign of wear.
                                        Just pulling a string through a hole (depending on the size) already removes tiny splinters that can be seen on the inside of certain drilling holes. You see small splinters in the holes you've got 99% chance it's a fake. Simple test : Try yourself to pull a string through the hole and see how much colour or splinters come of.
                                         
                                        But we are talking African art here and it's very difficult to have a general guideline that can be used to identify the authenticity of a piece.
                                         
                                        Just try and keep in mind that:
                                        ·         If a piece has clean holes you can start doubting.
                                        ·         If it has no signs of wear you can start doubting even more.
                                        ·         If you rub the piece with your thumb and the spot becomes pale very easily you can start thinking it was coloured to look old.
                                        ·         Try and imagine how a piece would be stored in Africa; they DO NOT put these masks, statues or whatever on a nice display. For them this is an object that is USED. It is stored under a bed in a hut…termites can eat their way in the wood…or perhaps it’s not even wrapped in a piece of cloth so it is just lying on it’s back so take your piece put on a table a see where it touches the surface. These spots should be worn, damaged, And At Least NOT CLEAN.
                                        ·         If, if, if...
                                         
                                        Copiers are getting better and better so many signs can be faked, it’s rather the combination of all these that will help you identify the authenticity.
                                         
                                        Just small pieces that will help you solve this mysterious puzzle and that's what makes African art so fascinating!
                                         
                                        But if you like piece and you know it’s a fake just buy it.
                                        How many people have posters? These are reproductions of an original as well. How many people have an Eifel tower, an Atomium or a Statue of Liberty in their living room? All copies but if it fits in your interior and sets the mood right…why not?
                                        Perhaps you will never find an original so enjoy what you can get!
                                         
                                        Cheers
                                         
                                        Tim


                                        bissikrima46000 <bissikrima46000@...> wrote:
                                        1) Greetings Tim,
                                        I have seen some serious pieces large and small with relative age ( some straight out of the national museum of Guinee (Conakry) ) that are not worn at the back of the holes, does that make them inauthentic ? some even look and smell like they have been dipped in the sewer and have all the signs that they have been worn. As well interestingly i have seen some with the worn holes that don't show any signs that they have been worn. I am wondering if some of the ones that show wear at the back of the holes were man made rather than the strings rubbing while wearing ! Gerald

                                        2) JOHN: " if you love it and paid a fair price for it, enjoy
                                        it and forget about keeping up with your neighbor's
                                        opinion. ". that's really the ultimate crux of the
                                        matter, thanks John for your wise words ! Gerald

                                        > Hi Markus,
                                        >
                                        > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room can't be bad!
                                        > If you like it, buy it.
                                        > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the mask would touch the
                                        face of the dancer. The best way to know where to look for marks is to hold the mask in
                                        front of your face and pretend you would wear this and imagine to be jumping around
                                        with it. Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if these spots are warn on
                                        the inside.
                                        > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled holes means it was
                                        never used and made for tourists or in-experienced collectors like us... (o;
                                        > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable price for a fake but
                                        nice looking mask.
                                        >
                                        > Regards
                                        >
                                        > Tim
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > escultura78 <markuswurm@ ...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello!
                                        > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The reason why I want to know
                                        more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an antiquity dealer in
                                        Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old collection for sale. It was
                                        very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african artifacts, but I think
                                        most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed, that this antiquity
                                        dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is a very good looking Lega
                                        mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But considering that many masks
                                        which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely that the turtle shell mask was
                                        made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there are no turtle shell masks
                                        in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there were made only a few
                                        for tourists because they look so pretty?
                                        > See the photo of the mask I am talking about: http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/
                                        African_Arts/ photos/view/ 8c89?b=7
                                        > Markus
                                        > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Marcus,
                                        > >
                                        > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago .... it was mostly
                                        > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple but striking
                                        > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm thinking his
                                        > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                                        > >
                                        > > Daniel
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at http://www.aol. com
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                        > http://mail. yahoo.com
                                        >


                                        __________________________________________________
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                                        http://mail.yahoo.com

                                      • Craig Lewis
                                        Tim, I have to go against your advice to buy a fake turtle shell mask, a wooden one maybe, if thats what you like but a recent fake turtle shell mask, NO,NO,NO
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Tim,
                                          I have to go against your advice to buy a fake turtle shell mask, a
                                          wooden one maybe, if thats what you like but a recent fake turtle
                                          shell mask, NO,NO,NO !!!

                                          See my previous post on this subject about the legality and also in
                                          my opinion the morals of buying a fake piece of art that some poor
                                          creature has died for.

                                          If you buy and import masks like this you can face legal proceedings
                                          and at the least have the piece confescated, so again if anyone is
                                          thinking of buying anything made of turtle shell, ivory, animal
                                          skins, feathers etc make sure it is legal and that you have a rock
                                          solid provenance for pieces claiming to be antique.
                                          regards
                                          Craig



                                          --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Tim Michiels <timmichiels@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi,
                                          >
                                          > The information I provided was a general guideline.
                                          > 1 rule can be applied without any discussion: A mask must have
                                          been used at least once or it cannot be classified as an authentic
                                          piece.
                                          > If the ritual in which the mask is used is just "the wearer
                                          sitting on a stool for 5 minutes" than the mask will have virtually
                                          no signs of wear… I understand.
                                          > Try and find out what the mask was used for and how often. If
                                          this ritual takes place every month and your mask is supposed to be
                                          30 years old, than there should be signs. Or if you know the ritual
                                          takes a whole day and the wearer is supposed to dance and perhaps
                                          other participants throw certain fluids at the dancer you should find
                                          residues and the holes of the strings should have some sign of wear.
                                          > Just pulling a string through a hole (depending on the size)
                                          already removes tiny splinters that can be seen on the inside of
                                          certain drilling holes. You see small splinters in the holes you've
                                          got 99% chance it's a fake. Simple test : Try yourself to pull a
                                          string through the hole and see how much colour or splinters come of.
                                          >
                                          > But we are talking African art here and it's very difficult to
                                          have a general guideline that can be used to identify the
                                          authenticity of a piece.
                                          >
                                          > Just try and keep in mind that:
                                          > · If a piece has clean holes you can start doubting.
                                          > · If it has no signs of wear you can start doubting even
                                          more.
                                          > · If you rub the piece with your thumb and the spot
                                          becomes pale very easily you can start thinking it was coloured to
                                          look old.
                                          > · Try and imagine how a piece would be stored in Africa;
                                          they DO NOT put these masks, statues or whatever on a nice display.
                                          For them this is an object that is USED. It is stored under a bed in
                                          a hut…termites can eat their way in the wood…or perhaps it's not even
                                          wrapped in a piece of cloth so it is just lying on it's back so take
                                          your piece put on a table a see where it touches the surface. These
                                          spots should be worn, damaged, And At Least NOT CLEAN.
                                          > · If, if, if...
                                          >
                                          > Copiers are getting better and better so many signs can be faked,
                                          it's rather the combination of all these that will help you identify
                                          the authenticity.
                                          >
                                          > Just small pieces that will help you solve this mysterious puzzle
                                          and that's what makes African art so fascinating!
                                          >
                                          > But if you like piece and you know it's a fake just buy it.
                                          > How many people have posters? These are reproductions of an
                                          original as well. How many people have an Eifel tower, an Atomium or
                                          a Statue of Liberty in their living room? All copies but if it fits
                                          in your interior and sets the mood right…why not?
                                          > Perhaps you will never find an original so enjoy what you can get!
                                          >
                                          > Cheers
                                          >
                                          > Tim
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > bissikrima46000 <bissikrima46000@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > 1) Greetings Tim,
                                          > I have seen some serious pieces large and small with relative age (
                                          some straight out of the national museum of Guinee (Conakry) ) that
                                          are not worn at the back of the holes, does that make them
                                          inauthentic ? some even look and smell like they have been dipped in
                                          the sewer and have all the signs that they have been worn. As well
                                          interestingly i have seen some with the worn holes that don't show
                                          any signs that they have been worn. I am wondering if some of the
                                          ones that show wear at the back of the holes were man made rather
                                          than the strings rubbing while wearing ! Gerald
                                          >
                                          > 2) JOHN: " if you love it and paid a fair price for it, enjoy
                                          > it and forget about keeping up with your neighbor's
                                          > opinion. ". that's really the ultimate crux of the
                                          > matter, thanks John for your wise words ! Gerald
                                          >
                                          > > Hi Markus,
                                          > >
                                          > > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room
                                          can't be bad!
                                          > > If you like it, buy it.
                                          > > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the
                                          mask would touch the
                                          > face of the dancer. The best way to know where to look for marks is
                                          to hold the mask in
                                          > front of your face and pretend you would wear this and imagine to
                                          be jumping around
                                          > with it. Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if
                                          these spots are warn on
                                          > the inside.
                                          > > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled
                                          holes means it was
                                          > never used and made for tourists or in-experienced collectors like
                                          us... (o;
                                          > > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable
                                          price for a fake but
                                          > nice looking mask.
                                          > >
                                          > > Regards
                                          > >
                                          > > Tim
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > escultura78 <markuswurm@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello!
                                          > > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The
                                          reason why I want to know
                                          > more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an
                                          antiquity dealer in
                                          > Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old
                                          collection for sale. It was
                                          > very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african
                                          artifacts, but I think
                                          > most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed,
                                          that this antiquity
                                          > dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is
                                          a very good looking Lega
                                          > mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But
                                          considering that many masks
                                          > which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely
                                          that the turtle shell mask was
                                          > made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there
                                          are no turtle shell masks
                                          > in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there
                                          were made only a few
                                          > for tourists because they look so pretty?
                                          > > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
                                          http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/
                                          > African_Arts/photos/view/8c89?b=7
                                          > > Markus
                                          > > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Marcus,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago ....
                                          it was mostly
                                          > > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple
                                          but striking
                                          > > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
                                          thinking his
                                          > > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Daniel
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ************************************** See what's new at
                                          http://www.aol.com
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > __________________________________________________
                                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > __________________________________________________
                                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                                          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                          > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                          >
                                        • amyas naegeleLast Name
                                          Judging wear to holes in a mask has to take into consideration how the holes were employed with regard to the sting. If the holes support a chord afixing the
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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                                            Judging wear to holes in a mask has to take into
                                            consideration how the holes were employed with regard
                                            to the sting. If the holes support a chord afixing
                                            the mask to the face the wear would be more profound
                                            than those in a mask where the holes were used to
                                            attach a fiber or cloth head piece for example. In
                                            many cases some holes are used and others not used.
                                            Splinters in holes may in fact be fiber residue.
                                            Lastly, fkaers no all aout rope wear and face wear and
                                            are reasonably good at simulating it when they feel
                                            the need.

                                            __________________________________________________
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                                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                          • Tim Michiels
                                            Craig, The first sentence in my reply was : The information I provided was a general guideline. I was not referring to turtle masks but giving advice in
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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                                              Craig,
                                               
                                              The first sentence in my reply was :
                                              " The information I provided was a general guideline. "
                                              I was not referring to turtle masks but giving advice in general in order to find out if a piece is a touristic piece of art made for decorational purposes or if it is a genuine object which was actually used somewhere in Africa.
                                               
                                              I do agree one should avoid buying art made from endangered species.
                                              I remember back in the 80’s when we lived in Africa, poachers came to our house to sell rhino horn, skulls of leopard and many other items. We always refused even when the price was very, very attractive. It broke my heart seeing these animals being killed for the sake of a trophy. We always were stuck with a dilemma : should we report this to the police and perhaps the guy will get killed, (or your family might be attacked the very next day by his companions) or just close your eyes, tell the man you’re not interested and show him you do not approve. If you have a family you WILL choose the latter.
                                               
                                              Regards
                                              Tim


                                              Craig Lewis <craig_n_emma@...> wrote:
                                              Tim,
                                              I have to go against your advice to buy a fake turtle shell mask, a
                                              wooden one maybe, if thats what you like but a recent fake turtle
                                              shell mask, NO,NO,NO !!!

                                              See my previous post on this subject about the legality and also in
                                              my opinion the morals of buying a fake piece of art that some poor
                                              creature has died for.

                                              If you buy and import masks like this you can face legal proceedings
                                              and at the least have the piece confescated, so again if anyone is
                                              thinking of buying anything made of turtle shell, ivory, animal
                                              skins, feathers etc make sure it is legal and that you have a rock
                                              solid provenance for pieces claiming to be antique.
                                              regards
                                              Craig

                                              --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Tim Michiels <timmichiels@ ...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi,
                                              >
                                              > The information I provided was a general guideline.
                                              > 1 rule can be applied without any discussion: A mask must have
                                              been used at least once or it cannot be classified as an authentic
                                              piece.
                                              > If the ritual in which the mask is used is just "the wearer
                                              sitting on a stool for 5 minutes" than the mask will have virtually
                                              no signs of wear… I understand.
                                              > Try and find out what the mask was used for and how often. If
                                              this ritual takes place every month and your mask is supposed to be
                                              30 years old, than there should be signs. Or if you know the ritual
                                              takes a whole day and the wearer is supposed to dance and perhaps
                                              other participants throw certain fluids at the dancer you should find
                                              residues and the holes of the strings should have some sign of wear.
                                              > Just pulling a string through a hole (depending on the size)
                                              already removes tiny splinters that can be seen on the inside of
                                              certain drilling holes. You see small splinters in the holes you've
                                              got 99% chance it's a fake. Simple test : Try yourself to pull a
                                              string through the hole and see how much colour or splinters come of.
                                              >
                                              > But we are talking African art here and it's very difficult to
                                              have a general guideline that can be used to identify the
                                              authenticity of a piece.
                                              >
                                              > Just try and keep in mind that:
                                              > · If a piece has clean holes you can start doubting.
                                              > · If it has no signs of wear you can start doubting even
                                              more.
                                              > · If you rub the piece with your thumb and the spot
                                              becomes pale very easily you can start thinking it was coloured to
                                              look old.
                                              > · Try and imagine how a piece would be stored in Africa;
                                              they DO NOT put these masks, statues or whatever on a nice display.
                                              For them this is an object that is USED. It is stored under a bed in
                                              a hut…termites can eat their way in the wood…or perhaps it's not even
                                              wrapped in a piece of cloth so it is just lying on it's back so take
                                              your piece put on a table a see where it touches the surface. These
                                              spots should be worn, damaged, And At Least NOT CLEAN.
                                              > · If, if, if...
                                              >
                                              > Copiers are getting better and better so many signs can be faked,
                                              it's rather the combination of all these that will help you identify
                                              the authenticity.
                                              >
                                              > Just small pieces that will help you solve this mysterious puzzle
                                              and that's what makes African art so fascinating!
                                              >
                                              > But if you like piece and you know it's a fake just buy it.
                                              > How many people have posters? These are reproductions of an
                                              original as well. How many people have an Eifel tower, an Atomium or
                                              a Statue of Liberty in their living room? All copies but if it fits
                                              in your interior and sets the mood right…why not?
                                              > Perhaps you will never find an original so enjoy what you can get!
                                              >
                                              > Cheers
                                              >
                                              > Tim
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > bissikrima46000 <bissikrima46000@ ...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > 1) Greetings Tim,
                                              > I have seen some serious pieces large and small with relative age (
                                              some straight out of the national museum of Guinee (Conakry) ) that
                                              are not worn at the back of the holes, does that make them
                                              inauthentic ? some even look and smell like they have been dipped in
                                              the sewer and have all the signs that they have been worn. As well
                                              interestingly i have seen some with the worn holes that don't show
                                              any signs that they have been worn. I am wondering if some of the
                                              ones that show wear at the back of the holes were man made rather
                                              than the strings rubbing while wearing ! Gerald
                                              >
                                              > 2) JOHN: " if you love it and paid a fair price for it, enjoy
                                              > it and forget about keeping up with your neighbor's
                                              > opinion. ". that's really the ultimate crux of the
                                              > matter, thanks John for your wise words ! Gerald
                                              >
                                              > > Hi Markus,
                                              > >
                                              > > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room
                                              can't be bad!
                                              > > If you like it, buy it.
                                              > > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the
                                              mask would touch the
                                              > face of the dancer. The best way to know where to look for marks is
                                              to hold the mask in
                                              > front of your face and pretend you would wear this and imagine to
                                              be jumping around
                                              > with it. Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if
                                              these spots are warn on
                                              > the inside.
                                              > > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled
                                              holes means it was
                                              > never used and made for tourists or in-experienced collectors like
                                              us... (o;
                                              > > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable
                                              price for a fake but
                                              > nice looking mask.
                                              > >
                                              > > Regards
                                              > >
                                              > > Tim
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > escultura78 <markuswurm@ > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hello!
                                              > > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The
                                              reason why I want to know
                                              > more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an
                                              antiquity dealer in
                                              > Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old
                                              collection for sale. It was
                                              > very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african
                                              artifacts, but I think
                                              > most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed,
                                              that this antiquity
                                              > dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is
                                              a very good looking Lega
                                              > mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But
                                              considering that many masks
                                              > which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely
                                              that the turtle shell mask was
                                              > made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there
                                              are no turtle shell masks
                                              > in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there
                                              were made only a few
                                              > for tourists because they look so pretty?
                                              > > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
                                              http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/
                                              > African_Arts/ photos/view/ 8c89?b=7
                                              > > Markus
                                              > > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Marcus,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago ....
                                              it was mostly
                                              > > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple
                                              but striking
                                              > > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
                                              thinking his
                                              > > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Daniel
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at
                                              http://www.aol. com
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                              > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                              > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                              > > http://mail. yahoo.com
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                              > Do You Yahoo!?
                                              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                              > http://mail. yahoo.com
                                              >


                                              __________________________________________________
                                              Do You Yahoo!?
                                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                              http://mail.yahoo.com

                                            • woolygums
                                              Tim, Thank you for your well thought out reply. Sometimes we do not realize the dangers inherent in situations in other countries (than the USA). I turned down
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment

                                                Tim,

                                                 

                                                Thank you for your well thought out reply. Sometimes we do not realize the dangers inherent in situations in other countries (than the USA ).

                                                 

                                                I turned down a bear paw bag from an endangered species in Nagaland. It was recent and I could not bring myself to buy it because I was concerned they might go kill more bears for their paws.

                                                 

                                                I do have ivory pieces that seem to be pre CITES ban, but you never know. This is always a difficult question, but I agree with Craig that we must hold the line against recent items that belong to endangered species.

                                                 

                                                One problem is being able to decide how old something really is. This is usually a personal call.

                                                 

                                                I just bought a mounted Tsavo lion that came with paperwork attesting to its legality.

                                                 

                                                Bill

                                                 


                                                From: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Tim Michiels
                                                Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 9:36 AM
                                                To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Turtle shell mask

                                                 

                                                Craig,

                                                 

                                                The first sentence in my reply was :

                                                " The information I provided was a general guideline. "

                                                I was not referring to turtle masks but giving advice in general in order to find out if a piece is a touristic piece of art made for decorational purposes or if it is a genuine object which was actually used somewhere in Africa.

                                                 

                                                I do agree one should avoid buying art made from endangered species.

                                                I remember back in the 80’s when we lived in Africa , poachers came to our house to sell rhino horn, skulls of leopard and many other items. We alays refused even when the price was very, very attractive. It broke my heart seeing these animals being killed for the sake of a trophy. We always were stuck with a dilemma : should we report this to the police and perhaps the guy will get killed, (or your family might be attacked the very next day by his companions) or just close your eyes, tell the man you’re not interested and show him you do not approve. If you have a family you WILL choose the latter.

                                                 

                                                Regards

                                                Tim



                                                Craig Lewis <craig_n_emma@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:

                                                Tim,
                                                I have to go against your advice to buy a fake turtle shell mask, a
                                                wooden one maybe, if thats what you likebut a recent fake turtle
                                                shell mask, NO,NO,NO !!!

                                                See my previous post on this subject about the legality and also in
                                                my opinion the morals of buying a fake piece of art that some poor
                                                creature has died for.

                                                If you buy and import masks like this you can face legal proceedings
                                                and at the least have the piece confescated, so again if anyone is
                                                thinking of buying anything made of turtle shell, ivory, animal
                                                skins, feathers etc make sure it is legal and that you have a rock
                                                solid provenance for pieces claiming to be antique.
                                                regards
                                                Craig

                                                --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Tim Michiels <timmichiels@ ...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi,
                                                >
                                                > The information I provided was a general guideline.
                                                > 1 rule can be applied without any discussion: A mask must have
                                                been used at least once or it cannot be classified as an authentic
                                                piece.
                                                > If the ritual in which the mask is used is just "the wearer
                                                sitting on a stool for 5 minutes" than the mask will have virtually
                                                no signs of wear… I understand.
                                                > Try and find out what the mask was used for and how often. If
                                                this ritual takes place every month and your mask is supposed to be
                                                30 years old, than there should be signs. Or if you know the ritual
                                                takes a whole day and the wearer is supposed to dance and perhaps
                                                other participants throw certain fluids at the dancer you should find
                                                residues and the holes of the strings should have some sign of wear.
                                                > Just pulling a string through a hole (depending on the size)
                                                already removes tiny splinters that can be seen on the inside of
                                                certain drilling holes. You see small splinters in the holes you've
                                                got 99% chance it's a fake. Simple test : Try yourself to pull a
                                                string through the hole and see how much colour or splinters come of.
                                                >
                                                > But we are talking African art here and it's very difficult to
                                                have a general guideline that can be used to identify the
                                                authenticity of a piece.
                                                >
                                                > Just try and keep in mind that:
                                                > · If a piece has clean holes you can start doubting.
                                                > · If it has no signs of wear you can start doubting even
                                                more.
                                                > · If you rub the piece with your thumb and the spot
                                                becomes pale very easily you can start thinking it was coloured to
                                                look old.
                                                > · Try and imagine how a piece would be stored in Africa ;
                                                they DO NOT put these masks, statues or whatever on a nice display.
                                                For them this is an object that is USED. It is stored under a bed in
                                                a hut…termites can eat their way in the wood…or perhaps it's not even
                                                wrapped in a piece of cloth so it is just lying on it's back so take
                                                your piece put on a table a see where it touches the surface. These
                                                spots should be worn, damaged, And At Least NOT CLEAN.
                                                > · If, if, if...
                                                >
                                                > Copiers are getting better and better so many signs can be faked,
                                                it's rather the combination of all these that will help you identify
                                                the authenticity.
                                                >
                                                > Just small pieces that will help you solve this mysterious puzzle
                                                and that's what makes African art so fascinating!
                                                >
                                                > But if you like piece and you know it's a fake just buy it.
                                                > How many people have posters? These are reproductions of an
                                                original as well. How many people have an Eifel tower, an Atomium or
                                                a Statue of Liberty in their living room? All copies but if it fits
                                                in your interior and sets the mood right…why not?
                                                > Perhaps you will never find an original so enjoy what you can get!
                                                >
                                                > Cheers
                                                >
                                                > Tim
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > bissikrima46000 <bissikrima46000@ ...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > 1) Greetings Tim,
                                                > I have seen some serious pieces large and small with relative age (
                                                some straight out of the national museum of Guinee ( Conakry ) ) that
                                                are not worn at the back of the holes, does that make them
                                                inauthentic ? some even look and smell like they have been dipped in
                                                the sewer and have all the signs that they have been worn. As well
                                                interestingly i have seen some with the worn holes that don't show
                                                any signs that they have been worn. I am wondering if some of the
                                                ones that show wear at the back of the holes were man made rather
                                                than the strings rubbing while wearing ! Gerald
                                                >
                                                > 2) JOHN: " if you love it and paid a fair price for it, enjoy
                                                > it and forget about keeping up with your neighbor's
                                                > opinion. ". that's really the ultimate crux of the
                                                > matter, thanks John for your wise words ! Gerald
                                                >
                                                > > Hi Markus,
                                                > >
                                                > > This piece is nice, real or not, having this in your living room
                                                can't be bad!
                                                > > If you like it, buy it.
                                                > > Check on the back of the mask if there are any marks where the
                                                mask would touch the
                                                > face of the dancer. The best way to know where to look for marks is
                                                to hold the mask in
                                                > front of your face and pretend you would wear this and imagine to
                                                be jumping around
                                                > with it. Feel where the mask touches your face and then look if
                                                these spots are warn on
                                                > the inside.
                                                > > The holes for the strings should be warn as well; freshly drilled
                                                holes means it was
                                                > never used and made for tourists or in-experienced collectors like
                                                us... (o;
                                                > > If it looks brand new on the inside than try and get a reasonable
                                                price for a fake but
                                                > nice looking mask.
                                                > >
                                                > > Regards
                                                > >
                                                > > Tim
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > escultura78 <markuswurm@ > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hello!
                                                > > Thanks for all the information about turtle shell masks. The
                                                reason why I want to know
                                                > more about this type of mask is: About two years ago a visited an
                                                antiquity dealer in
                                                > Munich/Germany who offered african objects from a huge old
                                                collection for sale. It was
                                                > very impressed walking through his - I guess - thousands of african
                                                artifacts, but I think
                                                > most of them were made for the tourist market. Last week I noticed,
                                                that this antiquity
                                                > dealer offers objects from this collection again and that there is
                                                a very good looking Lega
                                                > mask made of tortoise/turtle shell among his objcts. But
                                                considering that many masks
                                                > which he offers for sale don't look autentic I think it is likely
                                                that the turtle shell mask was
                                                > made for the tourist market too... In addition it seems that there
                                                are no turtle shell masks
                                                > in museums or famous private collections. Is it possible that there
                                                were made only a few
                                                > for tourists because they look so pretty?
                                                > > See the photo of the mask I am talking about:
                                                http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/
                                                > African_Arts/ photos/view/ 8c89?b=7
                                                > > Markus
                                                > > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, dwolf22@ wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Marcus,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I saw a turtle shell mask with a trader several years ago ....
                                                it was mostly
                                                > > > flat .. made from the underbelly part of the shell .... simple
                                                but striking
                                                > > > ... maybe 8 inches high .. and 4 or 5 inches wide ..... I'm
                                                thinking his
                                                > > > attribution was Bembe ... but I'm not positive about that.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Daniel
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at
                                                http://www.aol. com
                                                &g; > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                > > http://mail. yahoo.com
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                > http://mail. yahoo.com
                                                >

                                                 

                                                 ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                http://mail. yahoo.com

                                              • Bob Ibold
                                                The subject of holes on the back of masks reminds me of a classic Songye Kifwebe I purchased this year. It is well carved, has a gorgeous old-looking patina,
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  The subject of holes on the back of masks reminds me of a classic Songye Kifwebe I purchased this year. It is well carved, has a gorgeous old-looking patina, and well-worn holes. But the wear on the holes is a bit too consistent. I think the mask is a fake.

                                                  It is a beautiful piece and I paid very little for it. In fact, I rarely pay more than the "fake" price for any African mask, whether it is authentic or not. Reproducing tribal art objects dates back to the 19th century and has become a huge business in Africa. The techniques of making something look old are highly developed there. I suspect that most of the "old, authentic" masks being sold today are fake.

                                                  Bob


                                                  At 08:59 AM 11/5/2007, you wrote:

                                                  Judging wear to holes in a mask has to take into
                                                  consideration how the holes were employed with regard
                                                  to the sting. If the holes support a chord afixing
                                                  the mask to the face the wear would be more profound
                                                  than those in a mask where the holes were used to
                                                  attach a fiber or cloth head piece for example. In
                                                  many cases some holes are used and others not used.
                                                  Splinters in holes may in fact be fiber residue.
                                                  Lastly, fkaers no all aout rope wear and face wear and
                                                  are reasonably good at simulating it when they feel
                                                  the need.

                                                  __________________________________________________
                                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                                                • Florent Morio
                                                  Hi Bob, Do you have some pictures of your Kifwebe ? Best regards, Florent 17:59 05/11/2007, you wrote: The subject of holes on the back of masks reminds me of
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi Bob,

                                                    Do you have some pictures of your Kifwebe ?

                                                    Best regards,

                                                    Florent



                                                    17:59 05/11/2007, you wrote:

                                                    The subject of holes on the back of masks reminds me of a classic Songye Kifwebe I purchased this year. It is well carved, has a gorgeous old-looking patina, and well-worn holes. But the wear on the holes is a bit too consistent. I think the mask is a fake.

                                                    It is a beautiful piece and I paid very little for it. In fact, I rarely pay more than the "fake" price for any African mask, whether it is authentic or not. Reproducing tribal art objects dates back to the 19th century and has become a huge business in Africa. The techniques of making something look old are highly developed there. I suspect that most of the "old, authentic" masks being sold today are fake.

                                                    Bob


                                                    At 08:59 AM 11/5/2007, you wrote:

                                                    Judging wear to holes in a mask has to take into
                                                    consideration how the holes were employed with regard
                                                    to the sting. If the holes support a chord afixing
                                                    the mask to the face the wear would be more profound
                                                    than those in a mask where the holes were used to
                                                    attach a fiber or cloth head piece for example. In
                                                    many cases some holes are used and others not used.
                                                    Splinters in holes may in fact be fiber residue.
                                                    Lastly, fkaers no all aout rope wear and face wear and
                                                    are reasonably good at simulating it when they feel
                                                    the need.

                                                    __________________________________________________
                                                    Do You Yahoo!?
                                                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                    http://mail.yahoo.com


                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                    Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM

                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                    Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.19/1106 - Release Date: 02/11/2007 21:46
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                                                  • DZ Levine
                                                    So, how does one protect oneself? Having lived awhile I find that sometimes even friends will fox you. (As an old friend once said when he described someone,
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      So, how does one protect oneself? Having lived awhile I find that sometimes even friends will "fox" you. (As an old friend once said when he described someone, "He may fox you but he won't f___ you.")
                                                      I think the bottom line is: buy what moves you! If it doesn't appeal to you, if it isn't something you'd want to live with and love and that will enhance your life, DON'T BUY IT!
                                                      Heck, even the experts get fooled! I know a woman who does restorations of Native American pieces for museums like the Smithsonian. She told me that if she wanted to she could make pieces that are indistinguishable from the real thing, even by objective testing. She doesn't, of course, because it is against her principles and ethics.
                                                      Unless I've seen a piece used in ceremony, or unless its history could be documented I would buy it with a grain of salt.....and money, of course.

                                                       David Levine
                                                      360-535-3875

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                                                    • amyas naegeleLast Name
                                                      My advice would be to never buy anything on the spot unless you are 100% sure and the price and situation are right: ie you go to a tag sale and there s a Dan
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Nov 6, 2007
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        My advice would be to never buy anything on the spot
                                                        unless you are 100% sure and the price and situation
                                                        are right: ie you go to a tag sale and there's a Dan
                                                        mask with an old label and a tagged price of $75!
                                                        Everything else is on hold because you forgot your
                                                        wallet or you have to ask the spouse. Established
                                                        dealers with great reputations are a different story
                                                        and I don't mean a guy with a van you've known for 17
                                                        years. Take pictures of the mask and share it with
                                                        collectors you know and respect. If the mask has
                                                        provenance see if you can establish the facts. Check
                                                        the back, the wear on any holes. Check your books and
                                                        local museum and compare the style, manner of carving,
                                                        scale and patina. Show the mask to someone
                                                        knowledgeable. Test areas of wear with acetone.
                                                        Patina of wear in general never washes off. I see a
                                                        lot of material and I still get fooled: sometimes for
                                                        a minute, sometimes for an hour or a day or a week.
                                                        Fakes will usually reveal their true natures eventually.

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