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Re: [African_Arts] Re: Pentecostal doctrine quickening loss of valuable Nigerian...

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  • Veronique Martelliere
    Yes, also Queen Hatshepsout and two or three Empresses in China... (just as in grammar, you must remember the exceptions) and maybe soon the first woman as a
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 7, 2007
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      Yes, also Queen Hatshepsout and two or three Empresses in China... (just as  in grammar, you must remember the exceptions) and maybe soon the first woman as a President of the USA ?


      ubaniaz2003 <ubaniaz2003@...> wrote:
      Powerful women are not a new phenomenon in Africa. What about Queen
      Nzingha of Angola (1583-1663) and Makeda, the Queen of Sheba
      (Ethiopia)? I'm sure there are others, too. These two just came to
      mind.

      --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, John Nash <jnash@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hmm, some of this is sounding, maybe, a bit
      > simplistic. The idea of a vacuum waiting to be filled
      > is interesting, but as an explanation for war it's
      > also a bit self-fulfilling -- more powerful countries
      > also get attacked, but generally they do not lose...
      > of course it's only the weaker ones that get
      > conquered.
      >
      > And have men dominated women since mr. neanderthal?
      > Where I lived in Africa it had always impressed me how
      > much women were the harder workers (men it seemed
      > worked very hard too, but in spurts, women worked very
      > hard and continuously! ). But that was only some women,
      > other women instead were the ones holding economic
      > power (think "mama benz"). Vero, is this a new
      > phenomenon in Africa, powerful women, or does it go
      > back to Mrs. Neanderthal. ..?
      >
      > John
      >
      >
      > --- Veronique Martelliere <proximatribal@ ...>
      > wrote:
      >
      > > Thank You, Margalit and thank You for your pertinent
      > > views about nature which does not tolerate vacuum -
      > > and how the world goes as a big chess game.
      > > Also, you ask : "About slavery and the horror of
      > > it. Who can explain that?". Probably Neanderthal
      > > could develop an explanation, as he started .
      > > Women were the first slaves (and still are in too
      > > many areas of our world) and also, probably, the
      > > first currencies. Because women have not enough
      > > muscles to resist, maybe they gave the men the
      > > cristallizing habit of having comfortable obedient
      > > humans within hand & voice reach. Then blame it on
      > > the women that slavery exist (a new item to be
      > > added on the list ).
      > > And, by the way, women do not demand excuses for
      > > what was done to their grand (grand-grand- grand,..
      > > ) mothers - we are too busy dealing with our present
      > > and future.
      > >
      > > Since Neanderthal, there are two types of chiefs
      > > corresponding to different 'appetites' (for filling
      > > the vacuum) : the first one measures his power
      > > according to his territory (Roman type) and the
      > > second one who measures it according to the number
      > > of "heads" he "owns" (tribal type). The latter might
      > > be the most dangerous. More than heads, he might
      > > conquer souls behind the mask of a generous
      > > missionary.
      > >
      > > I do not want to hurt anyone either, and am
      > > conscious that criticizing the Bible followers here
      > > (and there) is not very nice. I am catholic and was
      > > raised in catholic schools, and was probably
      > > overdosed. Observed also so many dichotomies between
      > > speech and acts.
      > > BUT that does not mean I look down on all people of
      > > faith. Genuine generosity of the heart is like an
      > > exquisite good wine : who cares about what is
      > > written on the label of the bottle ?
      > >
      > > "M.E.F." <mfliegelmann@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dearest Vero,
      > >
      > > How do you manage to bring humour, wisdom and
      > > kindness into every blistering situation?!
      > >
      > > I feel so deeply about not hurting feelings such
      > > as Ed's. At 60, I have spent the last 40 years or
      > > more devoted one way or another to my love,
      > > admiration and interest in and of Africa and the
      > > African Diaspora. I have spent most of my academic
      > > activities in this realm and the last thing I want
      > > is to hurt feelings but I also have integrity and
      > > believe in steering clear of indulgence, patronizing
      > > and political correctness of any sort. (This was an
      > > apology to Ed if I hurt his feelings).
      > >
      > > About marching into war zones: I have a few pet
      > > topics and this is one of them. I feel very strongly
      > > that there is no such thing as conquest, only
      > > internal decay which invites either directly or
      > > indirectly outside presence and subsequently rule.
      > >
      > > Examples: The Second Temple fell in Jerusalem
      > > because the Zealots and those who were less so and
      > > all the other many factions quarreled so vehemently
      > > that they actually invited the Romans in. (It was
      > > not so simple but it was so). About seven centuries
      > > later, the Muslims conquered in a way no other
      > > conquerors did because the Greeks (Byzantium) and
      > > the Persians were exhausted by fighting each other
      > > and of course, Europe was an anti heap that looked
      > > like it had been upset by an intruder, and so on.
      > > Nature does not tolerate vacuum and there are "Push"
      > > and "Pull" factors to every human movement. On the
      > > one hand, great cohesion and internal push factors
      > > will send off one group to war and the vacuum
      > > created by internal destruction invites the groups
      > > on the move in.
      > >
      > > These are value free descriptions of what actually
      > > has been happening in History.
      > >
      > > About slavery and the horror of it. Who can
      > > explain that? Every so often, things go really wrong
      > > and human kind will have to live with it in its
      > > stomach for many centuries. It is always harder to
      > > be the perpetrator than the victim.. And I'll say no
      > > more of this vast and off the tangent topic.
      > >
      > > Thanks Vero for your light, humorous and so wise
      > > contributions. You must be a very special person.
      > >
      > > Margalit
      > >
      > >
      > > Sorry Steve if I am slow but you are being
      > > sarcastic, right? Margalit
      > >
      > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
      > > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network
      > > Research Panel today!
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
      > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
      > > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
      > > economy) at Yahoo! Games.
      >



      Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

    • Bob Ibold
      This has stimulated some interesting discussion, however nobody accepted my challenge and came forward to defend the Pentecostals. Surely there must be a
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 7, 2007
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        This has stimulated some interesting discussion, however nobody accepted my challenge and came forward to defend the Pentecostals. Surely there must be a religious fundamentalist within our ranks.
        Bob


        At 04:05 PM 9/7/2007, you wrote:

        Well, John, since Neanderthal time, the strongest female muscle is her tongue (> "mother tongue')...  and women can keep on making a lot of tongue work-out until  a man decides that she must "shut up" (maybe with the threat of his own muscles or with the threat of bringing his game-bag to another woman).  You see : at last,  Mr Neanderthal has the last  "word".

        This is a caricature, of course. Women have their own margin of freedom, a narrower margin - narrow as a cave. The cave is the woman's kingdom. And if she decides to decorate the bedroom corner with pink curtains and white pompoms, her husband/partner is not allowed to make any objection (unless she does not cook or wash the dishes - in that case she might become "a witch", inflammable, of course). But if she decides to go hunting for mamoths with the guys : "Objection, your Honour, you'd better mind your cave" (cave bears say "Honey", instead of "your Honour")..

        Why do women work harder ?  Because there is at least one meal per day, because they are the ones who cook and because they know exactly the price of a kg of rice + as organisms in potential gestation, they have to anticipate and gather hazelnuts for the future : mammoths are dangerous and an accident can happen quite unexpectedly.

        So, what is a couple, finally ? Two persons who agreed to colonize each other.
        []


         

        John Nash <jnash@...> wrote:
        Hmm, some of this is sounding, maybe, a bit
        simplistic. The idea of a vacuum waiting to be filled
        is interesting, but as an explanation for war it's
        also a bit self-fulfilling -- more powerful countries
        also get attacked, but generally they do not lose...
        of course it's only the weaker ones that get
        conquered.

        And have men dominated women since mr. neanderthal?
        Where I lived in Africa it had always impressed me how
        much women were the harder workers (men it seemed
        worked very hard too, but in spurts, women worked very
        hard and continuously!). But that was only some women,
        other women instead were the ones holding economic
        power (think "mama benz"). Vero, is this a new
        phenomenon in Africa, powerful women, or does it go
        back to Mrs. Neanderthal...?

        John

        --- Veronique Martelliere <proximatribal@... >
        wrote:

        > Thank You, Margalit and thank You for your pertinent
        > views about nature which does not tolerate vacuum -
        > and how the world goes as a big chess game.
        > Also, you ask : "About slavery and the horror of
        > it. Who can explain that?". Probably Neanderthal
        > could develop an explanation, as he started .
        > Women were the first slaves (and still are in too
        > many areas of our world) and also, probably, the
        > first currencies. Because women have not enough
        > muscles to resist, maybe they gave the men the
        > cristallizing habit of having comfortable obedient
        > humans within hand & voice reach. Then blame it on
        > the women that slavery exist (a new item to be
        > added on the list ).
        > And, by the way, women do not demand excuses for
        > what was done to their grand (grand-grand-grand,..
        > ) mothers - we are too busy dealing with our present
        > and future.
        >
        > Since Neanderthal, there are two types of chiefs
        > corresponding to different 'appetites' (for filling
        > the vacuum) : the first one measures his power
        > according to his territory (Roman type) and the
        > second one who measures it according to the number
        > of "heads" he "owns" (tribal type). The latter might
        > be the most dangerous. More than heads, he might
        > conquer souls behind the mask of a generous
        > missionary.
        >
        > I do not want to hurt anyone either, and am
        > conscious that criticizing the Bible followers here
        > (and there) is not very nice. I am catholic and was
        > raised in catholic schools, and was probably
        > overdosed. Observed also so many dichotomies between
        > speech and acts.
        > BUT that does not mean I look down on all people of
        > faith. Genuine generosity of the heart is like an
        > exquisite good wine : who cares about what is
        > written on the label of the bottle ?
        >
        > "M.E.F." <mfliegelmann@... > wrote:
        >
        > Dearest Vero,
        >
        > How do you manage to bring humour, wisdom and
        > kindness into every blistering situation?!
        >
        > I feel so deeply about not hurting feelings such
        > as Ed's. At 60, I have spent the last 40 years or
        > more devoted one way or another to my love,
        > admiration and interest in and of Africa and the
        > African Diaspora. I have spent most of my academic
        > activities in this realm and the last thing I want
        > is to hurt feelings but I also have integrity and
        > believe in steering clear of indulgence, patronizing
        > and political correctness of any sort. (This was an
        > apology to Ed if I hurt his feelings).
        >
        > About marching into war zones: I have a few pet
        > topics and this is one of them. I feel very strongly
        > that there is no such thing as conquest, only
        > internal decay which invites either directly or
        > indirectly outside presence and subsequently rule.
        >
        > Examples: The Second Temple fell in Jerusalem
        > because the Zealots and those who were less so and
        > all the other many factions quarreled so vehemently
        > that they actually invited the Romans in. (It was
        > not so simple but it was so). About seven centuries
        > later, the Muslims conquered in a way no other
        > conquerors did because the Greeks (Byzantium) and
        > the Persians were exhausted by fighting each other
        > and of course, Europe was an anti heap that looked
        > like it had been upset by an intruder, and so on.
        > Nature does not tolerate vacuum and there are "Push"
        > and "Pull" factors to every human movement. On the
        > one hand, great cohesion and internal push factors
        > will send off one group to war and the vacuum
        > created by internal destruction invites the groups
        > on the move in.
        >
        > These are value free descriptions of what actually
        > has been happening in History.
        >
        > About slavery and the horror of it. Who can
        > explain that? Every so often, things go really wrong
        > and human kind will have to live with it in its
        > stomach for many centuries. It is always harder to
        > be the perpetrator than the victim.. And I'll say no
        > more of this vast and off the tangent topic.
        >
        > Thanks Vero for your light, humorous and so wise
        > contributions. You must be a very special person.
        >
        > Margalit
        >
        >
        > Sorry Steve if I am slow but you are being
        > sarcastic, right? Margalit
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network
        > Research Panel today!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
        > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
        > economy) at Yahoo! Games.



        Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
        Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.7/992 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 8:36 AM
      • Steve Price
        Hi Bob I m surely no religious fundamentalist, but I don t see anything that the Pentecostals have done that needs defending. They acted in good conscience,
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 7, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Bob

          I'm surely no religious fundamentalist, but I don't see anything that
          the Pentecostals have done that needs defending. They acted in good
          conscience, they believe that they have saved some souls, and the
          people that they converted think so, too. You and I regret the loss
          of material culture. Too bad for us.

          Cultures and their arts evolve. That involves gains and it involves
          losses. We're accustomed to it in western cultures (whatever became
          of the Michaelangelo school, or the descendents of Bach?), but have
          the notion that it shouldn't be allowed to happen in what we
          patronizingly think of as primitive societies.

          Regards

          Steve Price



          --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, Bob Ibold <bob.ibold@...> wrote:
          >
          > This has stimulated some interesting discussion, however nobody
          > accepted my challenge and came forward to defend the Pentecostals.
          > Surely there must be a religious fundamentalist within our ranks.
          > Bob
          >
          >
          > At 04:05 PM 9/7/2007, you wrote:
          >
          > >Well, John, since Neanderthal time, the strongest female muscle is
          > >her tongue (> "mother tongue')... and women can keep on making a
          > >lot of tongue work-out until a man decides that she must "shut
          up"
          > >(maybe with the threat of his own muscles or with the threat of
          > >bringing his game-bag to another woman). You see : at last, Mr
          > >Neanderthal has the last "word".
          > >
          > >This is a caricature, of course. Women have their own margin of
          > >freedom, a narrower margin - narrow as a cave. The cave is the
          > >woman's kingdom. And if she decides to decorate the bedroom corner
          > >with pink curtains and white pompoms, her husband/partner is not
          > >allowed to make any objection (unless she does not cook or wash
          the
          > >dishes - in that case she might become "a witch", inflammable, of
          > >course). But if she decides to go hunting for mamoths with the
          guys
          > >: "Objection, your Honour, you'd better mind your cave" (cave
          bears
          > >say "Honey", instead of "your Honour")..
          > >
          > >Why do women work harder ? Because there is at least one meal per
          > >day, because they are the ones who cook and because they know
          > >exactly the price of a kg of rice + as organisms in potential
          > >gestation, they have to anticipate and gather hazelnuts for the
          > >future : mammoths are dangerous and an accident can happen quite
          unexpectedly.
          > >
          > >So, what is a couple, finally ? Two persons who agreed to colonize
          each other.
          > >[]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >John Nash <jnash@...> wrote:
          > >Hmm, some of this is sounding, maybe, a bit
          > >simplistic. The idea of a vacuum waiting to be filled
          > >is interesting, but as an explanation for war it's
          > >also a bit self-fulfilling -- more powerful countries
          > >also get attacked, but generally they do not lose...
          > >of course it's only the weaker ones that get
          > >conquered.
          > >
          > >And have men dominated women since mr. neanderthal?
          > >Where I lived in Africa it had always impressed me how
          > >much women were the harder workers (men it seemed
          > >worked very hard too, but in spurts, women worked very
          > >hard and continuously!). But that was only some women,
          > >other women instead were the ones holding economic
          > >power (think "mama benz"). Vero, is this a new
          > >phenomenon in Africa, powerful women, or does it go
          > >back to Mrs. Neanderthal...?
          > >
          > >John
          > >
          > >--- Veronique Martelliere
          > ><<mailto:proximatribal%40yahoo.com>proximatribal@...>
          > >wrote:
          > >
          > > > Thank You, Margalit and thank You for your pertinent
          > > > views about nature which does not tolerate vacuum -
          > > > and how the world goes as a big chess game.
          > > > Also, you ask : "About slavery and the horror of
          > > > it. Who can explain that?". Probably Neanderthal
          > > > could develop an explanation, as he started .
          > > > Women were the first slaves (and still are in too
          > > > many areas of our world) and also, probably, the
          > > > first currencies. Because women have not enough
          > > > muscles to resist, maybe they gave the men the
          > > > cristallizing habit of having comfortable obedient
          > > > humans within hand & voice reach. Then blame it on
          > > > the women that slavery exist (a new item to be
          > > > added on the list ).
          > > > And, by the way, women do not demand excuses for
          > > > what was done to their grand (grand-grand-grand,..
          > > > ) mothers - we are too busy dealing with our present
          > > > and future.
          > > >
          > > > Since Neanderthal, there are two types of chiefs
          > > > corresponding to different 'appetites' (for filling
          > > > the vacuum) : the first one measures his power
          > > > according to his territory (Roman type) and the
          > > > second one who measures it according to the number
          > > > of "heads" he "owns" (tribal type). The latter might
          > > > be the most dangerous. More than heads, he might
          > > > conquer souls behind the mask of a generous
          > > > missionary.
          > > >
          > > > I do not want to hurt anyone either, and am
          > > > conscious that criticizing the Bible followers here
          > > > (and there) is not very nice. I am catholic and was
          > > > raised in catholic schools, and was probably
          > > > overdosed. Observed also so many dichotomies between
          > > > speech and acts.
          > > > BUT that does not mean I look down on all people of
          > > > faith. Genuine generosity of the heart is like an
          > > > exquisite good wine : who cares about what is
          > > > written on the label of the bottle ?
          > > >
          > > > "M.E.F." <<mailto:mfliegelmann%40yahoo.com>mfliegelmann@...>
          wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Dearest Vero,
          > > >
          > > > How do you manage to bring humour, wisdom and
          > > > kindness into every blistering situation?!
          > > >
          > > > I feel so deeply about not hurting feelings such
          > > > as Ed's. At 60, I have spent the last 40 years or
          > > > more devoted one way or another to my love,
          > > > admiration and interest in and of Africa and the
          > > > African Diaspora. I have spent most of my academic
          > > > activities in this realm and the last thing I want
          > > > is to hurt feelings but I also have integrity and
          > > > believe in steering clear of indulgence, patronizing
          > > > and political correctness of any sort. (This was an
          > > > apology to Ed if I hurt his feelings).
          > > >
          > > > About marching into war zones: I have a few pet
          > > > topics and this is one of them. I feel very strongly
          > > > that there is no such thing as conquest, only
          > > > internal decay which invites either directly or
          > > > indirectly outside presence and subsequently rule.
          > > >
          > > > Examples: The Second Temple fell in Jerusalem
          > > > because the Zealots and those who were less so and
          > > > all the other many factions quarreled so vehemently
          > > > that they actually invited the Romans in. (It was
          > > > not so simple but it was so). About seven centuries
          > > > later, the Muslims conquered in a way no other
          > > > conquerors did because the Greeks (Byzantium) and
          > > > the Persians were exhausted by fighting each other
          > > > and of course, Europe was an anti heap that looked
          > > > like it had been upset by an intruder, and so on.
          > > > Nature does not tolerate vacuum and there are "Push"
          > > > and "Pull" factors to every human movement. On the
          > > > one hand, great cohesion and internal push factors
          > > > will send off one group to war and the vacuum
          > > > created by internal destruction invites the groups
          > > > on the move in.
          > > >
          > > > These are value free descriptions of what actually
          > > > has been happening in History.
          > > >
          > > > About slavery and the horror of it. Who can
          > > > explain that? Every so often, things go really wrong
          > > > and human kind will have to live with it in its
          > > > stomach for many centuries. It is always harder to
          > > > be the perpetrator than the victim.. And I'll say no
          > > > more of this vast and off the tangent topic.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks Vero for your light, humorous and so wise
          > > > contributions. You must be a very special person.
          > > >
          > > > Margalit
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Sorry Steve if I am slow but you are being
          > > > sarcastic, right? Margalit
          > > >
          > > > ---------------------------------
          > > > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network
          > > > Research Panel today!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ---------------------------------
          > > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
          > > > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
          > > > economy) at Yahoo! Games.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
          >
          ><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddes
          c?gamekey=monopolyherenow>Play
          > >Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo!
          Games.
          > >
          > >No virus found in this incoming message.
          > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > >Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.7/992 - Release Date:
          > >9/6/2007 8:36 AM
          >
        • John Nash
          Ok, Vero, balance is somewhat restored to the family unit! I knew you would do that in a humorous way, hazelnuts and all. And your definition of a couple
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 8, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Ok, Vero, balance is somewhat restored to the family
            unit! I knew you would do that in a humorous way,
            hazelnuts and all. And your definition of a 'couple'
            rings rather true :)

            John
            p.s. I love hazelnuts, especially when turned into
            nutella...

            --- Veronique Martelliere <proximatribal@...>
            wrote:

            > Well, John, since Neanderthal time, the strongest
            > female muscle is her tongue (> "mother tongue')...
            > and women can keep on making a lot of tongue
            > work-out until a man decides that she must "shut
            > up" (maybe with the threat of his own muscles or
            > with the threat of bringing his game-bag to another
            > woman). You see : at last, Mr Neanderthal has the
            > last "word".
            >
            > This is a caricature, of course. Women have their
            > own margin of freedom, a narrower margin - narrow as
            > a cave. The cave is the woman's kingdom. And if she
            > decides to decorate the bedroom corner with pink
            > curtains and white pompoms, her husband/partner is
            > not allowed to make any objection (unless she does
            > not cook or wash the dishes - in that case she might
            > become "a witch", inflammable, of course). But if
            > she decides to go hunting for mamoths with the guys
            > : "Objection, your Honour, you'd better mind your
            > cave" (cave bears say "Honey", instead of "your
            > Honour")..
            >
            > Why do women work harder ? Because there is at
            > least one meal per day, because they are the ones
            > who cook and because they know exactly the price of
            > a kg of rice + as organisms in potential gestation,
            > they have to anticipate and gather hazelnuts for the
            > future : mammoths are dangerous and an accident can
            > happen quite unexpectedly.
            >
            > So, what is a couple, finally ? Two persons who
            > agreed to colonize each other.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > John Nash <jnash@...> wrote:
            > Hmm, some of this is sounding, maybe, a
            > bit
            > simplistic. The idea of a vacuum waiting to be
            > filled
            > is interesting, but as an explanation for war it's
            > also a bit self-fulfilling -- more powerful
            > countries
            > also get attacked, but generally they do not
            > lose...
            > of course it's only the weaker ones that get
            > conquered.
            >
            > And have men dominated women since mr. neanderthal?
            > Where I lived in Africa it had always impressed me
            > how
            > much women were the harder workers (men it seemed
            > worked very hard too, but in spurts, women worked
            > very
            > hard and continuously!). But that was only some
            > women,
            > other women instead were the ones holding economic
            > power (think "mama benz"). Vero, is this a new
            > phenomenon in Africa, powerful women, or does it go
            > back to Mrs. Neanderthal...?
            >
            > John
            >
            > --- Veronique Martelliere <proximatribal@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > > Thank You, Margalit and thank You for your
            > pertinent
            > > views about nature which does not tolerate vacuum
            > -
            > > and how the world goes as a big chess game.
            > > Also, you ask : "About slavery and the horror
            > of
            > > it. Who can explain that?". Probably Neanderthal
            > > could develop an explanation, as he started .
            > > Women were the first slaves (and still are in too
            > > many areas of our world) and also, probably, the
            > > first currencies. Because women have not enough
            > > muscles to resist, maybe they gave the men the
            > > cristallizing habit of having comfortable
            > obedient
            > > humans within hand & voice reach. Then blame it
            > on
            > > the women that slavery exist (a new item to be
            > > added on the list ).
            > > And, by the way, women do not demand excuses for
            > > what was done to their grand
            > (grand-grand-grand,..
            > > ) mothers - we are too busy dealing with our
            > present
            > > and future.
            > >
            > > Since Neanderthal, there are two types of chiefs
            > > corresponding to different 'appetites' (for
            > filling
            > > the vacuum) : the first one measures his power
            > > according to his territory (Roman type) and the
            > > second one who measures it according to the
            > number
            > > of "heads" he "owns" (tribal type). The latter
            > might
            > > be the most dangerous. More than heads, he might
            > > conquer souls behind the mask of a generous
            > > missionary.
            > >
            > > I do not want to hurt anyone either, and am
            > > conscious that criticizing the Bible followers
            > here
            > > (and there) is not very nice. I am catholic and
            > was
            > > raised in catholic schools, and was probably
            > > overdosed. Observed also so many dichotomies
            > between
            > > speech and acts.
            > > BUT that does not mean I look down on all people
            > of
            > > faith. Genuine generosity of the heart is like an
            > > exquisite good wine : who cares about what is
            > > written on the label of the bottle ?
            > >
            > > "M.E.F." <mfliegelmann@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > Dearest Vero,
            > >
            > > How do you manage to bring humour, wisdom and
            > > kindness into every blistering situation?!
            > >
            > > I feel so deeply about not hurting feelings
            > such
            > > as Ed's. At 60, I have spent the last 40 years or
            > > more devoted one way or another to my love,
            > > admiration and interest in and of Africa and the
            > > African Diaspora. I have spent most of my
            > academic
            > > activities in this realm and the last thing I
            > want
            > > is to hurt feelings but I also have integrity and
            > > believe in steering clear of indulgence,
            > patronizing
            > > and political correctness of any sort. (This was
            > an
            > > apology to Ed if I hurt his feelings).
            > >
            > > About marching into war zones: I have a few pet
            > > topics and this is one of them. I feel very
            > strongly
            > > that there is no such thing as conquest, only
            > > internal decay which invites either directly or
            > > indirectly outside presence and subsequently
            > rule.
            > >
            > > Examples: The Second Temple fell in Jerusalem
            > > because the Zealots and those who were less so
            > and
            > > all the other many factions quarreled so
            > vehemently
            > > that they actually invited the Romans in. (It was
            > > not so simple but it was so). About seven
            > centuries
            > > later, the Muslims conquered in a way no other
            > > conquerors did because the Greeks (Byzantium) and
            > > the Persians were exhausted by fighting each
            > other
            > > and of course, Europe was an anti heap that
            > looked
            > > like it had been upset by an intruder, and so on.
            > > Nature does not tolerate vacuum and there are
            > "Push"
            > > and "Pull" factors to every human movement. On
            > the
            > > one hand, great cohesion and internal push
            > factors
            > > will send off one group to war and the vacuum
            > > created by internal destruction invites the
            > groups
            > > on the move in.
            > >
            > > These are value free descriptions of what
            > actually
            > > has been happening in History.
            > >
            > > About slavery and the horror of it. Who can
            > > explain that? Every so often, things go really
            > wrong
            > > and human kind will have to live with it in its
            > > stomach for many centuries. It is always harder
            > to
            > > be the perpetrator than the victim.. And I'll say
            > no
            > > more of this vast and off the tangent topic.
            > >
            > > Thanks Vero for your light, humorous and so
            > wise
            > > contributions. You must be a very special person.
            >
            > >
            > > Margalit
            > >
            >
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