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Ethnic cups

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  • asiantrekker
    Hi, The group seems quiet lately. Probably holiday time for many. Happy 4th of July to American friends, and bon vacance to European ones! Now I wonder if
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 6, 2007
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      Hi,

      The group seems quiet lately. Probably holiday time for many. Happy 4th of
      July to American friends, and bon vacance to European ones!

      Now I wonder if there's anybody left around to help me with a question.
      I've these two cups (picture at
      http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/a2b4?b=14)
      whose origins I'm dying to know. Each cup measures about 5 inches high.

      The seller wasn't sure, but think Papua New Guinea. I remember having
      seen similar ones before maybe in a book, but for the life of me cannot
      recall which. (Also there's a possibility that they are neither Africa or even
      Oceanic. In which case, my apology to the moderator!)

      Can you help? Thank you in advance.

      Paisarn
    • Paul De Lucco
      Paisarn, They are not from Central Africa. Could they be Dayak? Best to you for the holidays, Paul ... From: asiantrekker To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 6, 2007
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        Paisarn,
         
        They are not from Central Africa.
         
        Could they be Dayak?
         
        Best to you for the holidays,
         
        Paul
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 11:31 AM
        Subject: [African_Arts] Ethnic cups

        Hi,

        The group seems quiet lately. Probably holiday time for many. Happy 4th of
        July to American friends, and bon vacance to European ones!

        Now I wonder if there's anybody left around to help me with a question.
        I've these two cups (picture at
        http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ view/a2b4? b=14)
        whose origins I'm dying to know. Each cup measures about 5 inches high.

        The seller wasn't sure, but think Papua New Guinea. I remember having
        seen similar ones before maybe in a book, but for the life of me cannot
        recall which. (Also there's a possibility that they are neither Africa or even
        Oceanic. In which case, my apology to the moderator!)

        Can you help? Thank you in advance.

        Paisarn

      • William Klebous
        I m pretty sure they are carvings of the Massim people of the Trobriand Islands. I do not know of any traditional objects having this particular form, so
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 6, 2007
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          I'm pretty sure they are carvings of the Massim
          people of the Trobriand Islands. I do not know
          of any traditional objects having this particular
          form, so perhaps they were done for the tourist
          market? By way of comparison:

          http://www.tribalmania.com/LIMESPATULA3FIGURES.htm

          --- asiantrekker <asiantrekker@...> wrote:

          > Hi,
          >
          > The group seems quiet lately. Probably holiday time
          > for many. Happy 4th of
          > July to American friends, and bon vacance to
          > European ones!
          >
          > Now I wonder if there's anybody left around to help
          > me with a question.
          > I've these two cups (picture at
          >
          http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/a2b4?b=14)
          >
          > whose origins I'm dying to know. Each cup measures
          > about 5 inches high.
          >
          > The seller wasn't sure, but think Papua New Guinea.
          > I remember having
          > seen similar ones before maybe in a book, but for
          > the life of me cannot
          > recall which. (Also there's a possibility that they
          > are neither Africa or even
          > Oceanic. In which case, my apology to the
          > moderator!)
          >
          > Can you help? Thank you in advance.
          >
          > Paisarn
          >
          >
          >
          > African Arts and Culture Discussion Group
          >
          > *Website for the group:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/
          >
          > *Photos folder for the group:
          > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos
          >
          >
          > *Message archives for the group:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/messages
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >



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        • P L
          Thank you Paul and William very much for your suggestions which I will investigate further. I wouldn t be too surprised if these cups are handicrafts made for
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 6, 2007
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            Thank you Paul and William very much for your suggestions which I will investigate further.
             
            I wouldn't be too surprised if these cups are handicrafts made for the tourist market, as the triangular openings along the handles look too neat for tribal tools. Still the overall design seems to hint at some traditional form.
             
            However, I doubt that they are Massim, as they completely lack the curvilinear patterns seen in Massim pieces, even recent ones. (I have a few Massim stools which are probably made for the market, but they still have curvilinears.)
             
            With the (sort of) floral design on the sides and the geometric triangles along the handle, I'm currently thinking may be islamic influence? And the use of wood as medium seems to suggest Indonesia. To my embarrassment, I must admit having little knowledge about the tribal arts of a near neighbor country. Any Indonesian art connoisseur around?
             
            Again thank you for all suggestions and have a nice weekend!
             
            Paisarn
             


            William Klebous <klebous@...> wrote:
            I'm pretty sure they are carvings of the Massim
            people of the Trobriand Islands. I do not know
            of any traditional objects having this particular
            form, so perhaps they were done for the tourist
            market? By way of comparison:

            http://www.tribalma nia.com/LIMESPAT ULA3FIGURES. htm

            --- asiantrekker <asiantrekker@ yahoo.com> wrote:

            > Hi,
            >
            > The group seems quiet lately. Probably holiday time
            > for many. Happy 4th of
            > July to American friends, and bon vacance to
            > European ones!
            >
            > Now I wonder if there's anybody left around to help
            > me with a question.
            > I've these two cups (picture at
            >
            http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ view/a2b4? b=14)
            >
            > whose origins I'm dying to know. Each cup measures
            > about 5 inches high.
            >
            > The seller wasn't sure, but think Papua New Guinea.
            > I remember having
            > seen similar ones before maybe in a book, but for
            > the life of me cannot
            > recall which. (Also there's a possibility that they
            > are neither Africa or even
            > Oceanic. In which case, my apology to the
            > moderator!)
            >
            > Can you help? Thank you in advance.
            >
            > Paisarn
            >
            >
            >
            > African Arts and Culture Discussion Group
            >
            > *Website for the group:
            > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/
            >
            > *Photos folder for the group:
            > http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos
            >
            >
            > *Message archives for the group:
            > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/messages
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with unlimited storage on all webmail accounts.
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          • Veronique Martelliere
            Bonjour, Paisarn ! Am fairly sure that these cups do not come from Indonesia and would tend to think that they come from eastern Europe (ex-Yougoslavia,
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 6, 2007
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              Bonjour, Paisarn !
               
              Am fairly sure that these cups do not come from Indonesia
              and would tend to think that they come from eastern Europe (ex-Yougoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania,...), as I remember seeing such objects, with such carvings, in this area of the world.
              Be well !
              Vero


              P L <asiantrekker@...> wrote:
              Thank you Paul and William very much for your suggestions which I will investigate further.
               
              I wouldn't be too surprised if these cups are handicrafts made for the tourist market, as the triangular openings along the handles look too neat for tribal tools. Still the overall design seems to hint at some traditional form.
               
              However, I doubt that they are Massim, as they completely lack the curvilinear patterns seen in Massim pieces, even recent ones. (I have a few Massim stools which are probably made for the market, but they still have curvilinears. )
               
              With the (sort of) floral design on the sides and the geometric triangles along the handle, I'm currently thinking may be islamic influence? And the use of wood as medium seems to suggest Indonesia. To my embarrassment, I must admit having little knowledge about the tribal arts of a near neighbor country. Any Indonesian art connoisseur around?
               
              Again thank you for all suggestions and have a nice weekend!
               
              Paisarn
               


              William Klebous <klebous@yahoo. com.au> wrote:
              I'm pretty sure they are carvings of the Massim
              people of the Trobriand Islands. I do not know
              of any traditional objects having this particular
              form, so perhaps they were done for the tourist
              market? By way of comparison:

              http://www.tribalma nia.com/LIMESPAT ULA3FIGURES. htm

              --- asiantrekker <asiantrekker@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              > Hi,
              >
              > The group seems quiet lately. Probably holiday time
              > for many. Happy 4th of
              > July to American friends, and bon vacance to
              > European ones!
              >
              > Now I wonder if there's anybody left around to help
              > me with a question.
              > I've these two cups (picture at
              >
              http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ view/a2b4? b=14)
              >
              > whose origins I'm dying to know. Each cup measures
              > about 5 inches high.
              >
              > The seller wasn't sure, but think Papua New Guinea.
              > I remember having
              > seen similar ones before maybe in a book, but for
              > the life of me cannot
              > recall which. (Also there's a possibility that they
              > are neither Africa or even
              > Oceanic. In which case, my apology to the
              > moderator!)
              >
              > Can you help? Thank you in advance.
              >
              > Paisarn
              >
              >
              >
              > African Arts and Culture Discussion Group
              >
              > *Website for the group:
              > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/
              >
              > *Photos folder for the group:
              > http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos
              >
              >
              > *Message archives for the group:
              > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/messages
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with unlimited storage on all webmail accounts.
              http://au.docs. yahoo.com/ mail/unlimitedst orage.html



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            • Veronique Martelliere
              Bonjour again, Paisarn ! Found on E-Bay (basic-) examples of wooden cups made in (ex-) Yugoslavia :
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 7, 2007
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                Bonjour again, Paisarn !
                 
                Found on E-Bay (basic-) examples of wooden cups made in (ex-) Yugoslavia :
                 
                Yours are older and nicer..!
                Vero

                asiantrekker <asiantrekker@...> wrote:
                Hi,

                The group seems quiet lately. Probably holiday time for many. Happy 4th of
                July to American friends, and bon vacance to European ones!

                Now I wonder if there's anybody left around to help me with a question.
                I've these two cups (picture at
                http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ view/a2b4? b=14)
                whose origins I'm dying to know. Each cup measures about 5 inches high.

                The seller wasn't sure, but think Papua New Guinea. I remember having
                seen similar ones before maybe in a book, but for the life of me cannot
                recall which. (Also there's a possibility that they are neither Africa or even
                Oceanic. In which case, my apology to the moderator!)

                Can you help? Thank you in advance.

                Paisarn



                Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

              • P L
                Merci beaucoup Vero! You re a magician -- and so kind. Now I can sleep in peace tonight. :-) It s interesting to know that my tribal cups came from Europe.
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 7, 2007
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                  Merci beaucoup Vero! You're a magician -- and so kind. Now I can sleep in peace tonight. :-)
                   
                  It's interesting to know that my 'tribal' cups came from Europe. It also delighted me to discover that there existed a wood culture there before the IKEA takeover. :-)
                   
                  Now if only mine also had the 'Handmade in Yogoslavia' carved into their bottoms, that would be cool -- we would also have our first case of definite attribution.
                   
                  Take care and have a great weekend! Paisarn


                  Veronique Martelliere <proximatribal@...> wrote:
                  Bonjour again, Paisarn !
                   
                  Found on E-Bay (basic-) examples of wooden cups made in (ex-) Yugoslavia :
                   
                  Yours are older and nicer..!
                  Vero

                  asiantrekker <asiantrekker@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                  Hi,

                  The group seems quiet lately. Probably holiday time for many. Happy 4th of
                  July to American friends, and bon vacance to European ones!

                  Now I wonder if there's anybody left around to help me with a question.
                  I've these two cups (picture at
                  http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ view/a2b4? b=14)
                  whose origins I'm dying to know. Each cup measures about 5 inches high.

                  The seller wasn't sure, but think Papua New Guinea. I remember having
                  seen similar ones before maybe in a book, but for the life of me cannot
                  recall which. (Also there's a possibility that they are neither Africa or even
                  Oceanic. In which case, my apology to the moderator!)

                  Can you help? Thank you in advance.

                  Paisarn



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                • awr066
                  Khun Paisarn Not my area of expertise, but I think these cups are Scandanavian (or possibly Eastern European). I have looked at similar cups and spoons in the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 9, 2007
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                    Khun Paisarn

                    Not my area of expertise, but I think these cups are Scandanavian (or
                    possibly Eastern European). I have looked at similar cups and spoons
                    in the past, thinking that they may be ethnographic, but they turn
                    out to be Scandanavian folk art.

                    Anyone have expertise in this area?

                    regards

                    Alex

                    -- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, "asiantrekker" <asiantrekker@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    > The group seems quiet lately. Probably holiday time for many. Happy
                    4th of
                    > July to American friends, and bon vacance to European ones!
                    >
                    > Now I wonder if there's anybody left around to help me with a
                    question.
                    > I've these two cups (picture at
                    > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/view/a2b4?
                    b=14)
                    > whose origins I'm dying to know. Each cup measures about 5 inches
                    high.
                    >
                    > The seller wasn't sure, but think Papua New Guinea. I remember
                    having
                    > seen similar ones before maybe in a book, but for the life of me
                    cannot
                    > recall which. (Also there's a possibility that they are neither
                    Africa or even
                    > Oceanic. In which case, my apology to the moderator!)
                    >
                    > Can you help? Thank you in advance.
                    >
                    > Paisarn
                    >
                  • Lee Rubinstein
                    Paisarn (Paul, Vero, Alex et al): I also have one of these cups and have searched through images and references including those referring to the Batak of
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 9, 2007
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                      Paisarn (Paul, Vero, Alex et al):

                      I also have one of these cups and have searched through images and
                      references including those referring to the Batak of northern Sumatra
                      and the Kalash of Northwest Pakistan as well folk traditions of
                      Romania, Hungary and even Scandinavia. I still remain uncertain as
                      to the specific origins of this style of cup or small pitcher. The
                      most notable elements that I have sought to match are the repetitive
                      leaf pattern, the pocked field on which the leaf pattern appears, the
                      triangular chips which mark the border areas and the open triangular
                      spaces -- larger and smaller -- that are seen on the "handle" but
                      have yet to make a definitive identification. While one can find
                      reasonably similar examples -- particularly in the cup Vero presented
                      from the former Yugoslavia -- as well as carved wooden objects that
                      bear like markings, I am still curious about the specific place and
                      culture of origin of these cups.

                      Here is an images of the cup I have here as well as an example of the
                      Scandinavian nutcracker which displays some of the elements but which
                      I don't see as sufficiently close to group the cup and the
                      nutcracker together:
                    • Veronique Martelliere
                      Bonjour Lee ! Nutcrackers in Asia are usually of this type :
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 9, 2007
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                        Bonjour Lee !

                        Nutcrackers in Asia are usually of this type :
                        http://cgi.ebay.de/indischer-Nussknacker-Nutcracker-India-Indien-antik_W0QQitemZ330145205786QQihZ014QQcategoryZ148024QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

                        There are many tribes/cultural communities in Europe !
                        ... but, though I'm a European, I could not determine if your nutcracker is from Norway, Germany, France or from the Balkans or elsewhere in Europe. Styles of objects (as well as traditional clothing) can be very near and even for a European, it can be confusing.

                        Found also on e-bay an interesting photo of the two objects together :
                        http://cgi.ebay.de/Salzstangenmaennchen-Nussknacker-und-Erdnussschale_W0QQitemZ320134996522QQihZ011QQcateg

                        as well as another type of european nut-cracker :
                        http://cgi.ebay.de/Nussknacker-Antik-Nachlass-Holzarbeit-Dachbodenfund-alt_W0QQitemZ200124746349QQihZ010QQcategoryZ33209QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

                        I really believe that the type of wooden pitcher that both you and Paisarn have,
                        come from the Balkans. There are also many tribes in the Balkans (Croats, Kosovar, Serbians, Montenegrians, Macedonians,...) but i did not succeed in
                        determining from which community these pitchers come from.
                        If and as soon as i'll have found it out, i'll let you know  - as well as for the nutcracker (which also might be from Tchaikowsky's land !)

                        Be well and carpe vitam !
                        Vero


                        Lee Rubinstein <LeeRubinstein@...>
                        wrote:
                        Paisarn (Paul, Vero, Alex et al):

                        I also have one of these cups and have searched through images and
                        references including those referring to the Batak of northern Sumatra
                        and the Kalash of Northwest Pakistan as well folk traditions of
                        Romania, Hungary and even Scandinavia. I still remain uncertain as
                        to the specific origins of this style of cup or small pitcher. The
                        most notable elements that I have sought to match are the repetitive
                        leaf pattern, the pocked field on which the leaf pattern appears, the
                        triangular chips which mark the border areas and the open triangular
                        spaces -- larger and smaller -- that are seen on the "handle" but
                        have yet to make a definitive identification. While one can find
                        reasonably similar examples -- particularly in the cup Vero presented
                        from the former Yugoslavia -- as well as carved wooden objects that
                        bear like markings, I am still curious about the specific place and
                        culture of origin of these cups.

                        Here is an images of the cup I have here as well as an example of the
                        Scandinavian nutcracker which displays some of the elements but which
                        I don't see as sufficiently close to group the cup and the
                        nutcracker together:

                        While they both have the triangular chips as part of the surface
                        decoration, the Scandinavian example -- and others I have viewed --
                        seem more symmetrical and floral than the patterns on the cup and
                        suggest to me different origins for the two types of object. I am
                        inclined toward the Eastern European origin for the cups. The only
                        safe conclusion I can draw is that they are apparently not African,
                        which eliminates at least one continent to search for additional
                        information and clues!

                        Lee


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