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Re: [African_Arts] Yoruba equestrian

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  • RAND (Rand African Art)
    Moderator: Direct link to the photos of James s piece- http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/browse/50f9?b=1&m=t Newark Museum page showing
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 4, 2007
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      Moderator:
       
       
      Newark Museum page showing their example:
      http://www.newarkmuseum.org/pages/collections/african.htm

      James Camey <jamescamey@...> wrote:
      Dear Group Members,

      I have been conducting research on a Yoruba Equestrian piece which has been in the family for over 60 years.  It has just occupied space on a book shelf as an interesting piece of art.  In retirement, I have taken it on as a project to determine the where, when an who of the object.

      Over the past few months, I have searched the Internet and have looked at many however few have had the same sharp, well defined lines and angles.  When I visited the Newark Museum's website African Collection (newarkmuseum. org) about two weeks ago, I was dumb founded at what I found - a piece that is the mirror image.

      All I have been able to learn from Dr. Christa Clarke (curator) is the Newark piece was donated in 1923 by Walter Dormitzer who was known to have lived in Nigeria before 1897. In her correspondence, Dr. Clarke said it appeared the two pieces were likely created as a set.

      Given the to 1897 dating, I have wondered if there is any connection to the sacking of Benin and the looted art that was taken by British soldiers and sold with the two pieces of a set being separated.

      I'm posting a photograph of the piece I have in the photos section and ask if readers would visit the Newark Museum (don't want to copy their photo) site to look at theirs.  It is shown on the lower right of the African collection page. One piece holds an object (sword?) in the right hand the other in the left hand - if they are facing each other the side with object in hand is on the same side.

      Please respond if anyone has any information that will add to my learning.

      This is my first time ever posting to a 'group' so please bear with me.

      James Camey
      Texas, USA


      James Camey
      972.394.8278
      214.354.1198
      jamescamey@yahoo. com

    • William Klebous
      James, what a great story, and object! As for adding anything to your knowledge, I can t. You already have more info about your piece than probably is known
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 4, 2007
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        James, what a great story, and object! As for
        adding anything to your knowledge, I can't.
        You already have more info about your piece
        than probably is known about 99% of African
        pieces that were not documented at the time
        of their collection. There's not too much to
        do at this point but enjoy it. WK

        --- James Camey <jamescamey@...> wrote:

        > Dear Group Members,
        >
        > I have been conducting research on a Yoruba
        > Equestrian piece which has been in the family for
        > over 60 years. It has just occupied space on a book
        > shelf as an interesting piece of art. In
        > retirement, I have taken it on as a project to
        > determine the where, when an who of the object.
        >
        > Over the past few months, I have searched the
        > Internet and have looked at many however few have
        > had the same sharp, well defined lines and angles.
        > When I visited the Newark Museum's website African
        > Collection (newarkmuseum.org) about two weeks ago, I
        > was dumb founded at what I found - a piece that is
        > the mirror image.
        >
        > All I have been able to learn from Dr. Christa
        > Clarke (curator) is the Newark piece was donated in
        > 1923 by Walter Dormitzer who was known to have lived
        > in Nigeria before 1897. In her correspondence, Dr.
        > Clarke said it appeared the two pieces were likely
        > created as a set.
        >
        > Given the to 1897 dating, I have wondered if there
        > is any connection to the sacking of Benin and the
        > looted art that was taken by British soldiers and
        > sold with the two pieces of a set being separated.
        >
        > I'm posting a photograph of the piece I have in the
        > photos section and ask if readers would visit the
        > Newark Museum (don't want to copy their photo) site
        > to look at theirs. It is shown on the lower right
        > of the African collection page. One piece holds an
        > object (sword?) in the right hand the other in the
        > left hand - if they are facing each other the side
        > with object in hand is on the same side.
        >
        > Please respond if anyone has any information that
        > will add to my learning.
        >
        > This is my first time ever posting to a 'group' so
        > please bear with me.
        >
        > James Camey
        > Texas, USA
        >
        > Moderator:
        > Direct link to the photos of James's piece-
        >
        http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/browse/50f9?b=1&m=t
        >
        >
        > Newark Museum page showing their example:
        >
        http://www.newarkmuseum.org/pages/collections/african.htm
        >
        >
        > James Camey
        > 972.394.8278
        > 214.354.1198
        > jamescamey@...
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
        > Download and play hundreds of games for free on
        > Yahoo! Games.


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      • RAND (Rand African Art)
        James, I know that I already responded to your private email to me, I think that the connection that you made between the 2 pieces was great! Floros and Sigrid
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 8, 2007
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          James,
          I know that I already responded to your private email to me, I think that the connection that you made between the 2 pieces was great!
           
          Floros and Sigrid Katsouros have a figure in their collection that is the remains of a Yoruba bowl with a figure at the base, and although it's not an equestrian figure, if you look at the figure it has the same sharp lines and resembles the man in your piece pretty closely to a large degree. It's not by the same hand, but could be from the same workshop or line of carvers?
           
          They usually have some good collection information on most of their objects, and are really nice people. If you contact them to see what kind of history they have on their piece, it could possibly lead you in a good direction? You never know.
           
          Below is a link to the piece they have in their collection:
           
           
          I will also get back to you on your email to me, I am pretty behind at the moment.
           
          Cheers!
          RAND

          William Klebous <klebous@...> wrote:
          James, what a great story, and object! As for
          adding anything to your knowledge, I can't.
          You already have more info about your piece
          than probably is known about 99% of African
          pieces that were not documented at the time
          of their collection. There's not too much to
          do at this point but enjoy it. WK

          --- James Camey <jamescamey@yahoo. com> wrote:

          > Dear Group Members,
          >
          > I have been conducting research on a Yoruba
          > Equestrian piece which has been in the family for
          > over 60 years. It has just occupied space on a book
          > shelf as an interesting piece of art. In
          > retirement, I have taken it on as a project to
          > determine the where, when an who of the object.
          >
          > Over the past few months, I have searched the
          > Internet and have looked at many however few have
          > had the same sharp, well defined lines and angles.
          > When I visited the Newark Museum's website African
          > Collection (newarkmuseum. org) about two weeks ago, I
          > was dumb founded at what I found - a piece that is
          > the mirror image.
          >
          > All I have been able to learn from Dr. Christa
          > Clarke (curator) is the Newark piece was donated in
          > 1923 by Walter Dormitzer who was known to have lived
          > in Nigeria before 1897. In her correspondence, Dr.
          > Clarke said it appeared the two pieces were likely
          > created as a set.
          >
          > Given the to 1897 dating, I have wondered if there
          > is any connection to the sacking of Benin and the
          > looted art that was taken by British soldiers and
          > sold with the two pieces of a set being separated.
          >
          > I'm posting a photograph of the piece I have in the
          > photos section and ask if readers would visit the
          > Newark Museum (don't want to copy their photo) site
          > to look at theirs. It is shown on the lower right
          > of the African collection page. One piece holds an
          > object (sword?) in the right hand the other in the
          > left hand - if they are facing each other the side
          > with object in hand is on the same side.
          >
          > Please respond if anyone has any information that
          > will add to my learning.
          >
          > This is my first time ever posting to a 'group' so
          > please bear with me.
          >
          > James Camey
          > Texas, USA
          >
          > Moderator:
          > Direct link to the photos of James's piece-
          >
          http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ browse/50f9? b=1&m=t
          >
          >
          > Newark Museum page showing their example:
          >
          http://www.newarkmu seum.org/ pages/collection s/african. htm
          >
          >
          > James Camey
          > 972.394.8278
          > 214.354.1198
          > jamescamey@yahoo. com
          >
          > ------------ --------- --------- ---
          > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
          > Download and play hundreds of games for free on
          > Yahoo! Games.

          Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger .yahoo.com

        • James Camey
          Rand, Thanks for your help and support. You re not going to believe what I found in the New York Times archives. It is additional information supporting the
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 8, 2007
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            Rand,
            Thanks for your help and support.  You're not going to believe what I found in the New York Times archives.  It is additional information supporting the Newark piece being authentic.  Dr. Clarke of the Newark said Walter Dormitzer gave the piece to them in 1923.  Look at the attachments and learn about his associations with the arts and collecting in the early 20th century. One of the articles is about a collection of rare documents and autographs that were donated to the New Jersey Historical Society. I think I have run to the end of the line on this.

            Again, Thanks - sometime, whenever let me know what you think of the articles.
            James Camey
            Texas USA

            "RAND (Rand African Art)" <rand@...> wrote:
            James,
            I know that I already responded to your private email to me, I think that the connection that you made between the 2 pieces was great!
             
            Floros and Sigrid Katsouros have a figure in their collection that is the remains of a Yoruba bowl with a figure at the base, and although it's not an equestrian figure, if you look at the figure it has the same sharp lines and resembles the man in your piece pretty closely to a large degree. It's not by the same hand, but could be from the same workshop or line of carvers?
             
            They usually have some good collection information on most of their objects, and are really nice people. If you contact them to see what kind of history they have on their piece, it could possibly lead you in a good direction? You never know.
             
            Below is a link to the piece they have in their collection:
             
             
            I will also get back to you on your email to me, I am pretty behind at the moment.
             
            Cheers!
            RAND

            William Klebous <klebous@yahoo. com.au> wrote:
            James, what a great story, and object! As for
            adding anything to your knowledge, I can't.
            You already have more info about your piece
            than probably is known about 99% of African
            pieces that were not documented at the time
            of their collection. There's not too much to
            do at this point but enjoy it. WK

            --- James Camey <jamescamey@yahoo. com> wrote:

            > Dear Group Members,
            >
            > I have been conducting research on a Yoruba
            > Equestrian piece which has been in the family for
            > over 60 years. It has just occupied space on a book
            > shelf as an interesting piece of art. In
            > retirement, I have taken it on as a project to
            > determine the where, when an who of the object.
            >
            > Over the past few months, I have searched the
            > Internet and have looked at many however few have
            > had the same sharp, well defined lines and angles.
            > When I visited the Newark Museum's website African
            > Collection (newarkmuseum. org) about two weeks ago, I
            > was dumb founded at what I found - a piece that is
            > the mirror image.
            >
            > All I have been able to learn from Dr. Christa
            > Clarke (curator) is the Newark piece was donated in
            > 1923 by Walter Dormitzer who was known to have lived
            > in Nigeria before 1897. In her correspondence, Dr.
            > Clarke said it appeared the two pieces were likely
            > created as a set.
            >
            > Given the to 1897 dating, I have wondered if there
            > is any connection to the sacking of Benin and the
            > looted art that was taken by British soldiers and
            > sold with the two pieces of a set being separated.
            >
            > I'm posting a photograph of the piece I have in the
            > photos section and ask if readers would visit the
            > Newark Museum (don't want to copy their photo) site
            > to look at theirs. It is shown on the lower right
            > of the African collection page. One piece holds an
            > object (sword?) in the right hand the other in the
            > left hand - if they are facing each other the side
            > with object in hand is on the same side.
            >
            > Please respond if anyone has any information that
            > will add to my learning.
            >
            > This is my first time ever posting to a 'group' so
            > please bear with me.
            >
            > James Camey
            > Texas, USA
            >
            > Moderator:
            > Direct link to the photos of James's piece-
            >
            http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/African_ Arts/photos/ browse/50f9? b=1&m=t
            >
            >
            > Newark Museum page showing their example:
            >
            http://www.newarkmu seum.org/ pages/collection s/african. htm
            >
            >
            > James Camey
            > 972.394.8278
            > 214.354.1198
            > jamescamey@yahoo. com
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ---
            > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
            > Download and play hundreds of games for free on
            > Yahoo! Games.

            Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger .yahoo.com




            James Camey
            972.394.8278
            214.354.1198
            jamescamey@...


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