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Re: [African_Arts] Re: Just a note... About this group

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  • Iwikki
    Note to Moyo Okediji: great post! Thanks for some beautiful sanity (at last). Also to Veronique: Great post too about the primates. Thanks. Des. ...
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 8, 2005
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      Note to Moyo Okediji:

      great post! Thanks for some beautiful sanity (at
      last).

      Also to Veronique:

      Great post too about the primates. Thanks.

      Des.


      --- MOYOSORE OKEDIJI <okdg@...> a écrit :

      > Dear all:
      >
      > The sky is wide enough
      > For two birds to fly side by side
      > Without locking wings.
      > A Yoruba proverb.
      > Divination was cast for Rand.
      > Divination was cast for David.
      > On the day both friends
      > Disagreed over the definition and direction
      > Of African art.
      > Both friends must offer sacrifices:
      > Two swift running rats
      > Two fast swimming fishes
      > Two she-goats heavy with pregnancy
      > Two rams with convoluted horns.
      > The offering of sacrifices is creative
      > Not offering sacrifices is destructive.
      > May we not use our own hands
      > To pull down the house we built
      > May we not use our own tongues
      > To curse the child we birthed
      > May we not use our own feet
      > To kick the spouse we love
      > May we not blind our own eyes
      > To spite the dancing masquerade
      > May our groups grow larger and larger
      > May our list grow longer and longer
      > May our enemies become our friends
      > May our friends become our kin
      > May our kin become the king
      > May the king become the mat
      > On which the people recline
      > Because the sky is wide enough
      > For all birds to freely fly
      > Without colliding and collapsing.
      >
      > Moyo Okediji
      >
      >
      >
      > Erik Lewandowski <elewando@...> wrote:
      > Hi all,
      >
      > I am a new member of this group, and I truly enjoy
      > reading this group discussions.
      >
      > Currently, I have a small collection of African
      > Arts,
      > some of the items are old and some are fairly new,
      > and some are what I call: hybrids a mix of different
      > tribe influences,
      > most likely made for the tourist market.
      >
      > Truly, I like them all and they all represent some
      > form of art and expression.
      > Finding today older piece is not easy and if you do
      > find one,
      > you certainly do not know if the piece is a real one
      > or a fake.
      > Personally, I am in possession of few pieces that I
      > know are old, because
      > I inherited them from my grandfather who traveled in
      > Africa in 1920,
      > and I think those are the only pieces I can be
      > certain that are old,
      >
      > but,
      >
      > for me all of African Art pieces are beautiful: new,
      > modern, older or rare and unique,
      > some more attractive then others, nonetheless,
      > I find it totally depending on our own taste,
      > preference and what we like to collect.
      > I think of them as a form of someone's expression.
      > As a group we shouldn't limit our self to discus
      > just one a very narrow topic.
      >
      > Best Regards
      > Erik
      >
      >
      > At 03:07 PM 6/7/2005 +0000, you wrote:
      > John,
      > I think you have brought up a very valid point. This
      > would be a
      > perfect place to discuss artists such as Twins Seven
      > Seven, Bruce
      > Onobrakpeya and the like.
      > I think you are correct, there isn't anywhere to
      > discuss artists such
      > as these(I take it this is what you mean by non
      > tradition based??)
      > Cheers
      > Craig
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, John Nash
      > <jnash@y...> wrote:
      > > Rand,
      > >
      > > Can I ask you a question? I read what you write
      > about the
      > difference between the goals of this group as
      > opposed to Norden's:
      > >
      > > "David's focus is items over 50 years old, and our
      > focus is
      > exploring traditional African cultural and aesthetic
      > forms AND modern
      > tradition-based works (with an eye toward the
      > future)"
      > >
      > > But I'm left wondering exactly what you mean by
      > "modern tradition-
      > based works". Is this meant to include new works
      > made in a
      > traditional style, even when the local use of that
      > tradition may be
      > long gone? in other words works made exclusively for
      > the tourist, or
      > foreign market? would it include also new works made
      > to look older
      > (i.e. what most people would call 'fakes')? Or are
      > we interested here
      > only in artworks which have a local, indigenous
      > audience?
      > >
      > > More generally, I'm also wondering why you and Lee
      > may have chosen
      > not to simply state as the goal of the group that
      > ALL African Arts be
      > discussed here (without the 'tradition-based'
      > qualifier). I don't
      > know how many people are out there with an interest
      > in contemporary
      > African artworks which may not be viewed as
      > 'tradition-based', but
      > there certainly seems to be a lack of a place where
      > these can be
      > discussed - (at least I haven't found one!) There
      > might be a need to
      > be filled there... (that would certainly create a
      > clear distinction
      > between this group and Norden's)
      > >
      > > cheers,
      > > john
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >
      > African_Arts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
      > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > African_Arts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
      > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      >







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    • John Nash
      Craig, Excuse me please for my delay in replying... (I m following too many african arts discussions now in too many groups, a downside of some of the
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 17, 2005
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        Craig,
         
        Excuse me please for my delay in replying... (I'm following too many african arts discussions now in too many groups, a downside of some of the splintering...)
         
        You mentioned two of my favorite artists - especially Twins Seven-Seven, I'm a big fan. I don't know that I was necessarily thinking specifically about contemporary African artists like these with my initial query. My personal interests in African arts are rather broad, I'm drawn to the sense of design and color as much as anything else; and to the crafting traditions, even more than to the more religious sculptural works. Textiles, beads, painted houses, clothing, pottery you name it. Sculpture somehow gets all the attention.
         
        In my query I was just picking up on a phrase in the group's stated goals that seemed to relate only to "tradition-based" modern works - which struck me as odd because traditions are changing so rapidly (all over the world obviously, not just Africa...). But Lee has cleared up the group's purpose very well (thanks Lee) and it's good to hear that the interest in African art is really rather broad.
         
        You know the saying "if they build it they will come"... perhaps now that there is a forum concerned also with contemporary art issues perhaps we'll see more informations and discussions in that area (not to the detriment of the older traditions, just in addition!)
         
        Thanks Lee also for the Africa Remix links. I wonder why such a show will not land in the U.S.??? Is our interest in Africa so far lower than Europe and Japan's? This is a situation a friend of mine is always decrying. She has a large collection of works by contemporary African artists (a collection her parents started when they were living in Nigeria in the 60s and were very involved with the Oshogbo artists). She's been hoping for years now to establish a museum home for the collection, but it's not easy. Why would interest in the U.S. for Africa lag that of Europe? Are we just generally less interested in other cultures? I don't know...
         
        Anyway, again, I'm happy there is interest here!
         
        John


        Craig Lewis <craig_n_emma@...> wrote:
        John,
        I think you have brought up a very valid point. This would be a
        perfect place to discuss artists such as Twins Seven Seven, Bruce
        Onobrakpeya and the like.
        I think you are correct, there isn't anywhere to discuss artists such
        as these(I take it this is what you mean by non tradition based??)
        Cheers
        Craig 





        --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, John Nash <jnash@y...> wrote:
        > Rand,

        > Can I ask you a question? I read what you write about the
        difference between the goals of this group as opposed to Norden's:
        >
        > "David's focus is items over 50 years old, and our focus is
        exploring traditional African cultural and aesthetic forms AND modern
        tradition-based works (with an eye toward the future)"

        > But I'm left wondering exactly what you mean by "modern tradition-
        based works". Is this meant to include new works made in a
        traditional style, even when the local use of that tradition may be
        long gone? in other words works made exclusively for the tourist, or
        foreign market? would it include also new works made to look older
        (i.e. what most people would call 'fakes')? Or are we interested here
        only in artworks which have a local, indigenous audience?

        > More generally, I'm also wondering why you and Lee may have chosen
        not to simply state as the goal of the group that ALL African Arts be
        discussed here (without the 'tradition-based' qualifier). I don't
        know how many people are out there with an interest in contemporary
        African artworks which may not be viewed as 'tradition-based', but
        there certainly seems to be a lack of a place where these can be
        discussed - (at least I haven't found one!) There might be a need to
        be filled there... (that would certainly create a clear distinction
        between this group and Norden's)

        > cheers,
        > john





      • Bob Ibold
        To everyone who has participated in the tradition-based modern discussion... This subject may be contentious because so many African objects, especially
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 18, 2005
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          To everyone who has participated in the "tradition-based modern"
          discussion...

          This subject may be contentious because so many African objects, especially
          masks and figures, are fakes. I only mention this because I want to draw
          attention to those objects that are ignored by collectors and dealers
          alike... the modern masks and figures that break with tradition.

          They may be painted in bright shiny colors, applied with manufactured
          decoration, constructed of new materials, and/or represent non-traditional
          subject matter. They don't look like what you see in the books. When traders
          get a hold of them, they antique them (even bury them in termite mounds) to
          get rid of that new look and make them more acceptable for the market.

          I'm interested in these unpopular pieces of modern African folk art,
          especially masks. The first time I mentioned this Rand and Lee were
          encouraging, but I would still like to hear from more of you. Does anyone
          specialize in this kind of material? The evolution of African folk art? The
          African Diaspora?

          Bob Ibold

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "John Nash" <jnash@...>
          To: <African_Arts@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 4:47 PM
          Subject: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Just a note... About this group


          > Craig,
          >
          > Excuse me please for my delay in replying... (I'm following too many
          african arts discussions now in too many groups, a downside of some of the
          splintering...)
          >
          > You mentioned two of my favorite artists - especially Twins Seven-Seven,
          I'm a big fan. I don't know that I was necessarily thinking specifically
          about contemporary African artists like these with my initial query. My
          personal interests in African arts are rather broad, I'm drawn to the sense
          of design and color as much as anything else; and to the crafting
          traditions, even more than to the more religious sculptural works. Textiles,
          beads, painted houses, clothing, pottery you name it. Sculpture somehow gets
          all the attention.
          >
          > In my query I was just picking up on a phrase in the group's stated goals
          that seemed to relate only to "tradition-based" modern works - which struck
          me as odd because traditions are changing so rapidly (all over the world
          obviously, not just Africa...). But Lee has cleared up the group's purpose
          very well (thanks Lee) and it's good to hear that the interest in African
          art is really rather broad.
          >
          > You know the saying "if they build it they will come"... perhaps now that
          there is a forum concerned also with contemporary art issues perhaps we'll
          see more informations and discussions in that area (not to the detriment of
          the older traditions, just in addition!)
          >
          > Thanks Lee also for the Africa Remix links. I wonder why such a show will
          not land in the U.S.??? Is our interest in Africa so far lower than Europe
          and Japan's? This is a situation a friend of mine is always decrying. She
          has a large collection of works by contemporary African artists (a
          collection her parents started when they were living in Nigeria in the 60s
          and were very involved with the Oshogbo artists). She's been hoping for
          years now to establish a museum home for the collection, but it's not easy.
          Why would interest in the U.S. for Africa lag that of Europe? Are we just
          generally less interested in other cultures? I don't know...
          >
          > Anyway, again, I'm happy there is interest here!
          >
          > John
          >
          >
          > Craig Lewis <craig_n_emma@...> wrote:
          > John,
          > I think you have brought up a very valid point. This would be a
          > perfect place to discuss artists such as Twins Seven Seven, Bruce
          > Onobrakpeya and the like.
          > I think you are correct, there isn't anywhere to discuss artists such
          > as these(I take it this is what you mean by non tradition based??)
          > Cheers
          > Craig
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, John Nash <jnash@y...> wrote:
          > > Rand,
          > >
          > > Can I ask you a question? I read what you write about the
          > difference between the goals of this group as opposed to Norden's:
          > >
          > > "David's focus is items over 50 years old, and our focus is
          > exploring traditional African cultural and aesthetic forms AND modern
          > tradition-based works (with an eye toward the future)"
          > >
          > > But I'm left wondering exactly what you mean by "modern tradition-
          > based works". Is this meant to include new works made in a
          > traditional style, even when the local use of that tradition may be
          > long gone? in other words works made exclusively for the tourist, or
          > foreign market? would it include also new works made to look older
          > (i.e. what most people would call 'fakes')? Or are we interested here
          > only in artworks which have a local, indigenous audience?
          > >
          > > More generally, I'm also wondering why you and Lee may have chosen
          > not to simply state as the goal of the group that ALL African Arts be
          > discussed here (without the 'tradition-based' qualifier). I don't
          > know how many people are out there with an interest in contemporary
          > African artworks which may not be viewed as 'tradition-based', but
          > there certainly seems to be a lack of a place where these can be
          > discussed - (at least I haven't found one!) There might be a need to
          > be filled there... (that would certainly create a clear distinction
          > between this group and Norden's)
          > >
          > > cheers,
          > > john
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > African_Arts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • Ed JONES
          Hello All, BOB, Your position related to the originality and authenticity of African Ethnographs is like the sound of SWEET MUSIC TO MY SOUL . We share the
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 18, 2005
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            Hello All,

            BOB,

            Your position related to the originality and
            authenticity of African Ethnographs is like the sound
            of "SWEET MUSIC TO MY SOUL". We share the same
            objectivity (as I believe others do also).

            I have learned that it is a difficult subject to
            approach - not impossible though, for many reasons.

            What is always at the fore-front of my thoughts
            regarding the collection of artifacts is "how to
            divide the ugly reality of what is occurring with
            respect to the tradition and origin of artifacts,
            versus the great perversion and commercial
            exploitation(s). Yet, my desire is to maintain the
            passion and interest for the art ... and not only
            African artifacts, as my wife and I also collect items
            from other cultures.

            There is no doubt that the same issues affecting
            African ethnographs (with respect to perversion and
            commercialism) are also affecting collecting other
            cultural artifacts, including collecting salt water
            reefs!

            I think that knowledge is a great weapon, but it's not
            to be used alone. Somewhere, there has to be
            responsible individual choices and a degree of
            acceptance. I really believe "HOW" one measures it
            against the standard of "objectivity" will never be
            equitable- only personal ... Thank you for sharing.

            ED JONES



            --- Bob Ibold <bob.ibold@...> wrote:

            > To everyone who has participated in the
            > "tradition-based modern"
            > discussion...
            >
            > This subject may be contentious because so many
            > African objects, especially
            > masks and figures, are fakes. I only mention this
            > because I want to draw
            > attention to those objects that are ignored by
            > collectors and dealers
            > alike... the modern masks and figures that break
            > with tradition.
            >
            > They may be painted in bright shiny colors, applied
            > with manufactured
            > decoration, constructed of new materials, and/or
            > represent non-traditional
            > subject matter. They don't look like what you see in
            > the books. When traders
            > get a hold of them, they antique them (even bury
            > them in termite mounds) to
            > get rid of that new look and make them more
            > acceptable for the market.
            >
            > I'm interested in these unpopular pieces of modern
            > African folk art,
            > especially masks. The first time I mentioned this
            > Rand and Lee were
            > encouraging, but I would still like to hear from
            > more of you. Does anyone
            > specialize in this kind of material? The evolution
            > of African folk art? The
            > African Diaspora?
            >
            > Bob Ibold
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "John Nash" <jnash@...>
            > To: <African_Arts@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 4:47 PM
            > Subject: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Just a note... About
            > this group
            >
            >
            > > Craig,
            > >
            > > Excuse me please for my delay in replying... (I'm
            > following too many
            > african arts discussions now in too many groups, a
            > downside of some of the
            > splintering...)
            > >
            > > You mentioned two of my favorite artists -
            > especially Twins Seven-Seven,
            > I'm a big fan. I don't know that I was necessarily
            > thinking specifically
            > about contemporary African artists like these with
            > my initial query. My
            > personal interests in African arts are rather broad,
            > I'm drawn to the sense
            > of design and color as much as anything else; and to
            > the crafting
            > traditions, even more than to the more religious
            > sculptural works. Textiles,
            > beads, painted houses, clothing, pottery you name
            > it. Sculpture somehow gets
            > all the attention.
            > >
            > > In my query I was just picking up on a phrase in
            > the group's stated goals
            > that seemed to relate only to "tradition-based"
            > modern works - which struck
            > me as odd because traditions are changing so rapidly
            > (all over the world
            > obviously, not just Africa...). But Lee has cleared
            > up the group's purpose
            > very well (thanks Lee) and it's good to hear that
            > the interest in African
            > art is really rather broad.
            > >
            > > You know the saying "if they build it they will
            > come"... perhaps now that
            > there is a forum concerned also with contemporary
            > art issues perhaps we'll
            > see more informations and discussions in that area
            > (not to the detriment of
            > the older traditions, just in addition!)
            > >
            > > Thanks Lee also for the Africa Remix links. I
            > wonder why such a show will
            > not land in the U.S.??? Is our interest in Africa so
            > far lower than Europe
            > and Japan's? This is a situation a friend of mine is
            > always decrying. She
            > has a large collection of works by contemporary
            > African artists (a
            > collection her parents started when they were living
            > in Nigeria in the 60s
            > and were very involved with the Oshogbo artists).
            > She's been hoping for
            > years now to establish a museum home for the
            > collection, but it's not easy.
            > Why would interest in the U.S. for Africa lag that
            > of Europe? Are we just
            > generally less interested in other cultures? I don't
            > know...
            > >
            > > Anyway, again, I'm happy there is interest here!
            > >
            > > John
            > >
            > >
            > > Craig Lewis <craig_n_emma@...> wrote:
            > > John,
            > > I think you have brought up a very valid point.
            > This would be a
            > > perfect place to discuss artists such as Twins
            > Seven Seven, Bruce
            > > Onobrakpeya and the like.
            > > I think you are correct, there isn't anywhere to
            > discuss artists such
            > > as these(I take it this is what you mean by non
            > tradition based??)
            > > Cheers
            > > Craig
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, John Nash
            > <jnash@y...> wrote:
            > > > Rand,
            > > >
            > > > Can I ask you a question? I read what you write
            > about the
            > > difference between the goals of this group as
            > opposed to Norden's:
            > > >
            > > > "David's focus is items over 50 years old, and
            > our focus is
            > > exploring traditional African cultural and
            > aesthetic forms AND modern
            > > tradition-based works (with an eye toward the
            > future)"
            > > >
            > > > But I'm left wondering exactly what you mean by
            > "modern tradition-
            > > based works". Is this meant to include new works
            > made in a
            > > traditional style, even when the local use of that
            > tradition may be
            > > long gone? in other words works made exclusively
            > for the tourist, or
            > > foreign market? would it include also new works
            > made to look older
            > > (i.e. what most people would call 'fakes')? Or are
            > we interested here
            > > only in artworks which have a local, indigenous
            > audience?
            > > >
            > > > More generally, I'm also wondering why you and
            > Lee may have chosen
            > > not to simply state as the goal of the group that
            > ALL African Arts be
            > > discussed here (without the 'tradition-based'
            > qualifier). I don't
            > > know how many people are out there with an
            > interest in contemporary
            > > African artworks which may not be viewed as
            > 'tradition-based', but
            > > there certainly seems to be a lack of a place
            > where these can be
            > > discussed - (at least I haven't found one!) There
            > might be a need to
            > > be filled there... (that would certainly create a
            > clear distinction
            > > between this group and Norden's)
            > > >
            > > > cheers,
            > > > john
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
            > to:
            > > African_Arts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            >
            === message truncated ===




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