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  • Bouillie Jean-Pierre
    I think it, is tchokwe but ???? Photo: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/browse/4edf ... Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 18, 2006
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      I think it, is tchokwe but ???? Photo: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/browse/4edf ,
      Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire.
    • phil calonne
      Hello Pierre, I think that your mask has some characteristics which can make a Tshokwe part of it, the teeth in particular. I think that it belongs more to one
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 19, 2006
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        Hello Pierre, I think that your mask has some characteristics which can make a Tshokwe part of it, the teeth in particular. I think that it belongs more to one Tshokwe sub-group like Luvales (Angola). The typical symbolic system Tshokwe is not really present as in the masks Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, the hairstyle is strange, but it sometimes happens to find masks atypical. On the other hand didn't this part parraît me very old which is its origin? good luck for the continuation of your research. Philippe.

        Bonjour Pierre,
        Je pense que ton masque possède quelques
        caractéristiques qui peuvent en faire une pièce
        Tshokwe, les dents en particulier. Je pense qu'il
        appartient plus à un sous-groupe Tshokwe comme les
        Luvales ( Angola).
        La symbolique typique Tshokwe n'est pas vraiment
        présente comme dans les masques Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, la
        coiffure est étrange, mais il arrive de trouver des
        masques atypiques. Par contre cette pièce ne me
        parraît pas très vieille. quelle est son origine?
        bonne chance pour la suite de tes recherches.
        Philippe.






        ___________________________________________________________________________
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      • Bouillie Jean-Pierre
        Bonjour, J ai acheté ce masque quand j étais au Rwanda en 76-77 ; Merci pour ta réponse Jean-Pierre Hello Philippe I have bought this mask when I was in
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 19, 2006
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          Bonjour,
          J'ai acheté ce masque quand j'étais au Rwanda en 76-77 ;
          Merci pour ta réponse
          Jean-Pierre
          Hello Philippe
          I have bought this mask when I was in Rwanda(76-77)
          Thanks for your answer

          phil calonne <pncalonne@...> a écrit :
          Hello Pierre, I think that your mask has some characteristics which can make a Tshokwe part of it, the teeth in particular. I think that it belongs more to one Tshokwe sub-group like Luvales (Angola). The typical symbolic system Tshokwe is not really present as in the masks Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, the hairstyle is strange, but it sometimes happens to find masks atypical. On the other hand didn't this part parraît me very old which is its origin? good luck for the continuation of your research. Philippe.

          Bonjour Pierre,
          Je pense que ton masque possède quelques
          caractéristiques qui peuvent en faire une pièce
          Tshokwe, les dents en particulier. Je pense qu'il
          appartient plus à un sous-groupe Tshokwe comme les
          Luvales ( Angola).
          La symbolique typique Tshokwe n'est pas vraiment
          présente comme dans les masques Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, la
          coiffure est étrange, mais il arrive de trouver des
          masques atypiques. Par contre cette pièce ne me
          parraît pas très vieille. quelle est son origine?
          bonne chance pour la suite de tes recherches.
          Philippe.





          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          Découvrez un nouveau moyen de poser toutes vos questions quelque soit le sujet !
          Yahoo! Questions/Réponses pour partager vos connaissances, vos opinions et vos expériences.
          http://fr.answers. yahoo.com



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        • Rand African Art
          The link I originally gave to the photo of your mask didn t work, below is a correct one: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/African_Arts/photos/browse/4edf
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 19, 2006
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            The link I originally gave to the photo of your mask didn't work, below is a correct one:
             
            Jean-Pierre
            I would agree with Phil that the mouth has the typical Chokwe look to it, but the hairstyle depicted on the mask is very different than any that I found in the reference books that I have.
             
            The hairstyles vary greatly in the Chokwe masks and the masks from surrounding cultures, but I didn't find anything documented that was similar. I only have 2 Chokwe/related peoples reference books though, and there are many related groups around the Chokwe that aren't documented as much so it's hard to say for sure.
             
            Your question did prompt me to look through my books, including a new one that I just got in called "Chokwe and their Bantu Neighbors" put out by Galerie Walu. In that book I managed to find an example very similar to a mask that I have that I originally thought might be Lwena, but in the book it listed a very similar example to mine as Luvale.
             
             I'm sorry I couldn't help you more with your question, but thanks for asking it and prompting me to look through my new book, I was very happy to find a mask so similar in style to mine!
             
            I've placed a photo for comparison of the one I found in the book next to my mask underneath the photos of my mask in the page linked below:
             
            My other reference page on Chokwe masks:
             
            Cheers!
            RAND

            Bouillie Jean-Pierre <bouiliejp@...> wrote:
            Bonjour,
            J'ai acheté ce masque quand j'étais au Rwanda en 76-77 ;
            Merci pour ta réponse
            Jean-Pierre
            Hello Philippe
            I have bought this mask when I was in Rwanda(76-77)
            Thanks for your answer

            phil calonne <pncalonne@...> a écrit :
            Hello Pierre, I think that your mask has some characteristics which can make a Tshokwe part of it, the teeth in particular. I think that it belongs more to one Tshokwe sub-group like Luvales (Angola). The typical symbolic system Tshokwe is not really present as in the masks Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, the hairstyle is strange, but it sometimes happens to find masks atypical. On the other hand didn't this part parraît me very old which is its origin? good luck for the continuation of your research. Philippe.

            Bonjour Pierre,
            Je pense que ton masque possède quelques
            caractéristiques qui peuvent en faire une pièce
            Tshokwe, les dents en particulier. Je pense qu'il
            appartient plus à un sous-groupe Tshokwe comme les
            Luvales ( Angola).
            La symbolique typique Tshokwe n'est pas vraiment
            présente comme dans les masques Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, la
            coiffure est étrange, mais il arrive de trouver des
            masques atypiques. Par contre cette pièce ne me
            parraît pas très vieille. quelle est son origine?
            bonne chance pour la suite de tes recherches.
            Philippe.





            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            Découvrez un nouveau moyen de poser toutes vos questions quelque soit le sujet !
            Yahoo! Questions/Réponses pour partager vos connaissances, vos opinions et vos expériences.
            http://fr.answers. yahoo.com



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          • craig lewis
            I maybe totally off track but I think you should be looking nearer Nigeria, maybe Igbo, or somewhere around that area. It s just what the hairstyle and the
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 19, 2006
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              I maybe totally off track but I think you should be looking nearer Nigeria, maybe Igbo, or somewhere around that area. It's just what the hairstyle and the shape of the eyes suggests to me.
              Cheers
              Craig  

              Rand African Art <rand@...> wrote:
              The link I originally gave to the photo of your mask didn't work, below is a correct one:
               
              Jean-Pierre
              I would agree with Phil that the mouth has the typical Chokwe look to it, but the hairstyle depicted on the mask is very different than any that I found in the reference books that I have.
               
              The hairstyles vary greatly in the Chokwe masks and the masks from surrounding cultures, but I didn't find anything documented that was similar. I only have 2 Chokwe/related peoples reference books though, and there are many related groups around the Chokwe that aren't documented as much so it's hard to say for sure.
               
              Your question did prompt me to look through my books, including a new one that I just got in called "Chokwe and their Bantu Neighbors" put out by Galerie Walu. In that book I managed to find an example very similar to a mask that I have that I originally thought might be Lwena, but in the book it listed a very similar example to mine as Luvale.
               
               I'm sorry I couldn't help you more with your question, but thanks for asking it and prompting me to look through my new book, I was very happy to find a mask so similar in style to mine!
               
              I've placed a photo for comparison of the one I found in the book next to my mask underneath the photos of my mask in the page linked below:
               
              My other reference page on Chokwe masks:
               
              Cheers!
              RAND

              Bouillie Jean-Pierre <bouiliejp@...> wrote:
              Bonjour,
              J'ai acheté ce masque quand j'étais au Rwanda en 76-77 ;
              Merci pour ta réponse
              Jean-Pierre
              Hello Philippe
              I have bought this mask when I was in Rwanda(76-77)
              Thanks for your answer

              phil calonne <pncalonne@...> a écrit :
              Hello Pierre, I think that your mask has some characteristics which can make a Tshokwe part of it, the teeth in particular. I think that it belongs more to one Tshokwe sub-group like Luvales (Angola). The typical symbolic system Tshokwe is not really present as in the masks Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, the hairstyle is strange, but it sometimes happens to find masks atypical. On the other hand didn't this part parraît me very old which is its origin? good luck for the continuation of your research. Philippe.

              Bonjour Pierre,
              Je pense que ton masque possède quelques
              caractéristiques qui peuvent en faire une pièce
              Tshokwe, les dents en particulier. Je pense qu'il
              appartient plus à un sous-groupe Tshokwe comme les
              Luvales ( Angola).
              La symbolique typique Tshokwe n'est pas vraiment
              présente comme dans les masques Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, la
              coiffure est étrange, mais il arrive de trouver des
              masques atypiques. Par contre cette pièce ne me
              parraît pas très vieille. quelle est son origine?
              bonne chance pour la suite de tes recherches.
              Philippe.





              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              Découvrez un nouveau moyen de poser toutes vos questions quelque soit le sujet !
              Yahoo! Questions/Réponses pour partager vos connaissances, vos opinions et vos expériences.
              http://fr.answers. yahoo.com



              Découvrez un nouveau moyen de poser toutes vos questions quelque soit le sujet ! Yahoo! Questions/Réponses pour partager vos connaissances, vos opinions et vos expériences. Cliquez ici.



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            • Bouillie Jean-Pierre
              Rand Many thanks for your answer. I have the book : chokwe and their bantu neighbors I am going to send some others photos Cheers J-P Rand African Art
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 19, 2006
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                Rand
                Many thanks for your answer.
                I have the book : chokwe and their bantu neighbors
                I am going to send some others photos
                Cheers
                J-P
                Rand African Art <rand@...> a écrit :
                The link I originally gave to the photo of your mask didn't work, below is a correct one:
                 
                Jean-Pierre
                I would agree with Phil that the mouth has the typical Chokwe look to it, but the hairstyle depicted on the mask is very different than any that I found in the reference books that I have.
                 
                The hairstyles vary greatly in the Chokwe masks and the masks from surrounding cultures, but I didn't find anything documented that was similar. I only have 2 Chokwe/related peoples reference books though, and there are many related groups around the Chokwe that aren't documented as much so it's hard to say for sure.
                 
                Your question did prompt me to look through my books, including a new one that I just got in called "Chokwe and their Bantu Neighbors" put out by Galerie Walu. In that book I managed to find an example very similar to a mask that I have that I originally thought might be Lwena, but in the book it listed a very similar example to mine as Luvale.
                 
                 I'm sorry I couldn't help you more with your question, but thanks for asking it and prompting me to look through my new book, I was very happy to find a mask so similar in style to mine!
                 
                I've placed a photo for comparison of the one I found in the book next to my mask underneath the photos of my mask in the page linked below:
                 
                My other reference page on Chokwe masks:
                 
                Cheers!
                RAND

                Bouillie Jean-Pierre <bouiliejp@...> wrote:
                Bonjour,
                J'ai acheté ce masque quand j'étais au Rwanda en 76-77 ;
                Merci pour ta réponse
                Jean-Pierre
                Hello Philippe
                I have bought this mask when I was in Rwanda(76-77)
                Thanks for your answer

                phil calonne <pncalonne@...> a écrit :
                Hello Pierre, I think that your mask has some characteristics which can make a Tshokwe part of it, the teeth in particular. I think that it belongs more to one Tshokwe sub-group like Luvales (Angola). The typical symbolic system Tshokwe is not really present as in the masks Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, the hairstyle is strange, but it sometimes happens to find masks atypical. On the other hand didn't this part parraît me very old which is its origin? good luck for the continuation of your research. Philippe.

                Bonjour Pierre,
                Je pense que ton masque possède quelques
                caractéristiques qui peuvent en faire une pièce
                Tshokwe, les dents en particulier. Je pense qu'il
                appartient plus à un sous-groupe Tshokwe comme les
                Luvales ( Angola).
                La symbolique typique Tshokwe n'est pas vraiment
                présente comme dans les masques Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, la
                coiffure est étrange, mais il arrive de trouver des
                masques atypiques. Par contre cette pièce ne me
                parraît pas très vieille. quelle est son origine?
                bonne chance pour la suite de tes recherches.
                Philippe.





                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                Découvrez un nouveau moyen de poser toutes vos questions quelque soit le sujet !
                Yahoo! Questions/Réponses pour partager vos connaissances, vos opinions et vos expériences.
                http://fr.answers. yahoo.com



                Découvrez un nouveau moyen de poser toutes vos questions quelque soit le sujet ! Yahoo! Questions/Réponses pour partager vos connaissances, vos opinions et vos expériences. Cliquez ici.



                Découvrez un nouveau moyen de poser toutes vos questions quelque soit le sujet ! Yahoo! Questions/Réponses pour partager vos connaissances, vos opinions et vos expériences. Cliquez ici.

              • Rand African Art
                Craig, That is an interesting thought. I thought I had seen a similar hairstyle on a mask from another region like that. Usually one of the first places I go
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 19, 2006
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                  Craig,
                  That is an interesting thought. I thought I had seen a "similar" hairstyle on a mask from another region like that.
                   
                  Usually one of the first places I go to look when trying to identify a mask or object that has a fairly distinct hairstyle represented are the books "Parures de Tete - Hairstyles and Headdresses" and "Hair in African Art and Culture" because they both illustrate a lot of masks and objects and relate them to hairstyles in different cultures. I can't find my copy of Hair in African Art at the moment, but I couldn't find a similar Nigerian mask in Paures de Tete.
                   
                  The mask below is an Ibibio mask from the Gelbard Collection. It is not exactly like Jean-Pierre's mask, but is has some "similar" qualities to it as you mentioned some masks from Nigeria do, especially the treatment of the coiffure. I've seen other Nigerian masks with similar coiffures represented, I just can't locate images at the moment.
                   
                  Mask, Ibibio; Nigeria
                   
                  Mask, Ibibio; Nigeria
                  Wood; H. 10 3/4"
                  Masquerades of the Ibibio often depict a strong concept of duality. This is best illustrated in the masks of the Ekon Society, which utilizes dark, grotesque, and menacing male masks with rough surfaces and female masks with deep, shining surfaces depicting beautiful young women. The display and interplay between the beautiful and the ugly, the male and the female, the aggressive and the passive re-emphasize the basic dualities in life and the social regulations that unify these polar opposites. The Anang, one of the western-most Ibibio groups, carve in a far more naturalistic style than the rest of the Ibibio people. The serene, almost contemplative expression on this extremely old female mask may point to an Anang origin.
                   
                   

                  craig lewis <craig_n_emma@...> wrote:
                  I maybe totally off track but I think you should be looking nearer Nigeria, maybe Igbo, or somewhere around that area. It's just what the hairstyle and the shape of the eyes suggests to me.
                  Cheers
                  Craig  

                  Rand African Art <rand@...> wrote:
                  The link I originally gave to the photo of your mask didn't work, below is a correct one:
                   
                  Jean-Pierre
                  I would agree with Phil that the mouth has the typical Chokwe look to it, but the hairstyle depicted on the mask is very different than any that I found in the reference books that I have.
                   
                  The hairstyles vary greatly in the Chokwe masks and the masks from surrounding cultures, but I didn't find anything documented that was similar. I only have 2 Chokwe/related peoples reference books though, and there are many related groups around the Chokwe that aren't documented as much so it's hard to say for sure.
                   
                  Your question did prompt me to look through my books, including a new one that I just got in called "Chokwe and their Bantu Neighbors" put out by Galerie Walu. In that book I managed to find an example very similar to a mask that I have that I originally thought might be Lwena, but in the book it listed a very similar example to mine as Luvale.
                   
                   I'm sorry I couldn't help you more with your question, but thanks for asking it and prompting me to look through my new book, I was very happy to find a mask so similar in style to mine!
                   
                  I've placed a photo for comparison of the one I found in the book next to my mask underneath the photos of my mask in the page linked below:
                   
                  My other reference page on Chokwe masks:
                   
                  Cheers!
                  RAND

                  Bouillie Jean-Pierre <bouiliejp@...> wrote:
                  Bonjour,
                  J'ai acheté ce masque quand j'étais au Rwanda en 76-77 ;
                  Merci pour ta réponse
                  Jean-Pierre
                  Hello Philippe
                  I have bought this mask when I was in Rwanda(76-77)
                  Thanks for your answer

                  phil calonne <pncalonne@...> a écrit :
                  Hello Pierre, I think that your mask has some characteristics which can make a Tshokwe part of it, the teeth in particular. I think that it belongs more to one Tshokwe sub-group like Luvales (Angola). The typical symbolic system Tshokwe is not really present as in the masks Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, the hairstyle is strange, but it sometimes happens to find masks atypical. On the other hand didn't this part parraît me very old which is its origin? good luck for the continuation of your research. Philippe.

                  Bonjour Pierre,
                  Je pense que ton masque possède quelques
                  caractéristiques qui peuvent en faire une pièce
                  Tshokwe, les dents en particulier. Je pense qu'il
                  appartient plus à un sous-groupe Tshokwe comme les
                  Luvales ( Angola).
                  La symbolique typique Tshokwe n'est pas vraiment
                  présente comme dans les masques Mwana-Pwo Tshokwe, la
                  coiffure est étrange, mais il arrive de trouver des
                  masques atypiques. Par contre cette pièce ne me
                  parraît pas très vieille. quelle est son origine?
                  bonne chance pour la suite de tes recherches.
                  Philippe.





                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  Découvrez un nouveau moyen de poser toutes vos questions quelque soit le sujet !
                  Yahoo! Questions/Réponses pour partager vos connaissances, vos opinions et vos expériences.
                  http://fr.answers. yahoo.com



                  Découvrez un nouveau moyen de poser toutes vos questions quelque soit le sujet ! Yahoo! Questions/Réponses pour partager vos connaissances, vos opinions et vos expériences. Cliquez ici.



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