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Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a "masterpiece" a m...

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  • Craig Lewis
    Ricardo, Very interesting to note that Africans do not respond as negatively as Westerners to this kind of thing. While I must admit that I personally would
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 4, 2006
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      Ricardo,
      Very interesting to note that Africans do not respond as negatively
      as Westerners to this kind of thing. While I must admit that I
      personally would remove the crutch,it really doesn't shock me that
      Africans do not mind it.(Even though they did not add it)
      Looking at art produced in recent times, there can be all sorts
      of "modern" materials added to a piece. For example we can look at
      the padlock fetishes from the Fon people, is this any different
      (aesthetically) to adding a crutch? Also there are pieces that have
      things such as plastic beads, beer bottles etc attached. Not
      forgetting the use of modern oil based paints on masks etc, many
      collectors do not like these additions to pieces but the Africas who
      produce them in many cases hold these things as very important. In
      fact as important or more so that an old piece in some cases.
      African art is always changing and moving forward and i think it is
      important to document this and for collectors to recognise these more
      recent pieces as well as the older, more traditional objects.
      Cheers
      Craig



      -- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, "Ricardo J. de Matos Leandro"
      <rjdematos@...> wrote:
      >
      > Wauw, I didn't expect to meet the self-proclaimed ambassador of the
      Mbala
      > people on this forum….ahahahahah.
      >
      >
      >
      > This is very strange, I live in Congo and my family has been in the
      former
      > Zaïre for more than eighty years still I am not shocked by this
      crutch at
      > all. Jan Van Overstraeten, the artist and art-dealer, who added
      this crutch
      > was born in the former Zaïre. The Congolese people to whom I showed
      the
      > photograph where astonished and bemused, they never spoke of any
      lack of
      > respect.
      >
      >
      >
      > Actually, the only bad reactions I got came from Westerners. Isn't
      it
      > ironic? The relations between what some collectors want African art
      to be
      > (pure and untouched) and how it is considered, in 2006, by the
      people who
      > produce it are always intriguing.
      >
      >
      >
      > I thank you all for taking the time to answer this post.
      >
      >
      >
      > Best wishes,
      >
      > Ricardo
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > De: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Em
      > nome de dwolf22@...
      > Enviada: terça-feira, 4 de Julho de 2006 3:18
      > Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
      > Assunto: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a
      > "masterpiece" a m...
      >
      >
      >
      > I feel this piece's integrity has been compromised ungraciously...
      imposed
      > upon by the 'artists' whim... and presented with this added baggage
      which
      > only serves to diminsh the strength of the piece of it's own merit.
      I see
      > the crutch not as support for a missing limb .. or a damaged
      people .... or
      > of Oprah's good will ..... but rather the crutch of a spiritually
      > handicapped society that can not itself walk in balance imposing
      that crutch
      > on another people ... thereby robbing them of their own power..
      their own
      > beliefs .. their own past.
      >
      >
      >
      > The more it seeps in the more disturbing it is. Isn't it better to
      show some
      > respect for the remnants that remain of the culture that produced
      this piece
      > rather than to degrade it further with some modernist abberation?
      >
      >
      >
      > FREE THE MBALA!
      >
      >
      >
      > (I would probably not have the same reaction were the statue a fake)
      >
    • Ricardo J. de Matos Leandro
      “Interesting Mbala style, though; strong Holo influence................” Holo or Hungana? _____ De: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 4, 2006
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        “Interesting Mbala style, though;  strong Holo influence................”

         

        Holo or Hungana?

         


        De: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com ] Em nome de Paul De Lucco
        Enviada: segunda-feira, 3 de Julho de 2006 7:45
        Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
        Assunto: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a "masterpiece" a m...

         

        I think the Mbala figure is as funny as a crutch.

         

        Interesting Mbala style, though;  strong Holo influence................

         

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 1:52 PM

        Subject: RE: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a "masterpiece" a m...

         

        Hello group,

        I have enjoyed reading your contributions for this very special topic.

        I would like to add my own cent to this discussion: I would like to have your opinion on this Mbala figure artwork. I love it; I would have named it “collector’s support to African art”. What do you think? Is it still African art? I have submitted this artwork to the french speaking AntiquesAfricaines more than a year ago, it was received quiet badly. I wonder what you will think of it.

        Taken from http://www.galeriecongo.com/book.asp?chapter=2&page=20 , the site of Jean Van Overstaeten (member of the Bruneaf).

        Best wishes,

        Ricardo


        De: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com ] Em nome de Rand African Art
        Enviada: quinta-feira, 29 de Junho de 2006 23:06
        Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
        Assunto: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a "masterpiece" a m...

        This has been one of the more interesting and educational discussions, at least for me, that I’ve seen in the discussion groups for a long time.

        I’ve never studied art history; I’ve never really ‘formally’ studied anything dealing with art. I’ve never really put much thought into what a masterpiece is and what makes it a masterpiece before I saw the statement about the mask in the auction listing.

        The statement on the auction listing (emphasis mine):

        The fact is indisputable: it is an absolute masterpiece of art.”

        Sotheby’s uses “rare” and “fine” and “superb”, but I guess if you’re going for multi-million dollar bids you need “masterpiece” in the description. That way the children of the buyers can explain to their friends that it is “a Fang mask from Gabon and Alain de Monbrison, oh, and it’s a Masterpiece”. (g r i n)

        When you look at the definitions of “indisputable” and “absolute” in the dictionary, and you follow the conversations in this discussion group about the mask, I think you see that to many people the fact IS disputable that this mask is an absolute masterpiece of art.< /div>

        Originally I asked myself if I was missing something, as I often feel I do. I looked at the photo of the mask that was taken from the front (see below), it was fairly well executed from an artistic view point in my humble opinion, nice lines, nice presence to it. The eyes were cock-eyed/off set from each other a bit though and the mouth seemed a bit off center. Those things made it a bit unsymmetrical in my opinion, and that was something I didn’t like about it very much. I was taught by my old mentor to look at the symmetry of an object, that was the sign of a skilled carver. I thought the mask had a nice presence to it, but in my mind I thought of “masterpieces” differently than I thought of this mask.

        Photo link to the front photo of the mask:

        I’ll agree with Daniel Wolf’s statement below:

        No doubt it is a magnificent mask .. carved by a competent hand… but the value that has been placed on it comes from streams other than that of workmanship in my opinion.

        Having said all that ... I am curious... How many here given that they had never seen this mask and knew nothing of it's provenance would have quickly paid say 10-20 thousand .. or even 5-10 thousand for this piece had they seen it at an estate sale .. or from a runner...or at an antique store? Just curious.”

        To answer that question, I’d say that I would have a hard time paying 10-20 thousand for the mask, even if money wasn’t a problem , even though the mask does have some appeal to me. There were other objects in the Vérité auction that made my heart skip a beat, and if money wasn’t an object I would have paid as much as I had to in order to acquire them. Maybe that is what happened with someone else with the Fang Ngil mask…

        In preparation for my You Be the Judge page on Fang Ngil masks that I’m putting together, I compiled a group of photographs/scans of all of the published masks I could find and I showed them to a couple of friends of mine who have no knowledge about Tribal art at all, but are collectors of other art, so I could get an “off the street” reaction to them. It was very interesting to see them pick their favorites.

        A masterpiece is many things, and the meaning of “masterpiece” seems to be different to some than it is to others. I’m convinced that there are many other factors to consider above and beyond the craftsmanship and composition of an object in calling it a masterpiece. Everyone brought up many great points to support this.

        I like how Craig simpley stated it:

        "I think a "masterpiece" be it music or art can be relevant to
        circumstance,time and trends
        ."

        This discussion about this mask and this topic has really changed my opinion about what makes a masterpiece a masterpiece. Great discussions!

        Cheers!

        RAND



        Craig Lewis <craig_n_emma@...> wrote:

        Daniel,
        I think we may possibly have come up with what is a "masterpiece"
        with our musical analogies!!!

        From what we have both said in our recent posts it seems maybe we are
        suggesting the same thing. That is that a masterpiece is only a
        masterpiece to someone who believes it is just that.

        To once more use the musical analogy,someone that believes a Hendrix
        piece is a masterpiece will believe so, while someone who believes a
        Mozart piece is a masterpiece will similarly believe so.(My own
        particular favourite "masterpiece" to perform and listen to is Bouree
        in Em for Lute by JS Bach).

        Whoever thinks that the Verite Fang mask is a masterpiece then to
        them it is, to Gary (I think said)it is ugly. Who can convince Gary
        that this piece is a masterpiece? ? Nobody, if it's ugly to him then
        thats what it is. I think the mask is excellent and does have a great
        presence, but masterpiece? I'm not too sure.

        I think a "masterpiece" be it music or art can be relevant to
        circumstance, time and trends. I think this is showing in the
        discussion on this mask.

        P.S. Perhaps a masterpiece is something that can provoke this much
        interest and discussion!

        Cheers
        Craig

        --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, dwolf22@... wrote:
        >
        > Point taken Craig. Thanks for your perspective. I would concede
        that one of
        > the hallmarks of a 'master' is the ability to present the profound
        in whatever
        > form chosen... and certainly simplicity is an option to the
        masters hand.
        >
        > I appreciated the musical analogies .. and while I play guitar
        myself .. and
        > love Hendrix, Dylan, etc.... I don't think I would catagorize their
        work as
        > masterpieces - as I think one would have to look towards Classical
        for the
        > true masterworks .. Mozart, Beethoven etc. If Mozart and Hendrix
        were both alive
        > ... could Mozart understand what Hendrix was doing? I think yes ..
        he could
        > discect and digest it and play it back note for note .. or better
        yet add to
        > it in a way that would make it his own..... could Hendrix do the
        same with
        > Mozart? I rather doubt it.
        >
        > It's easier to quantify something as a masterpiece in relative
        terms ....
        > such as a 'masterpiece' of 60's psychedelic rock, or a masterpiece
        of literary
        > fiction ... I've even seen 'masterpieces' of crayon art on friends
        > refrigerators!
        > But ultimately from a more macro view .. true masters are few and
        far
        > between. Just my opinion of course.
        >
        > Daniel
        >

      • Steve Price
        Hi Ricardo We always dress up a few of our larger pieces for the Christmas season; red bow ties and such. It never occurred to me that this would be
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 4, 2006
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          Hi Ricardo

          We always dress up a few of our larger pieces for the Christmas
          season; red bow ties and such. It never occurred to me that this
          would be objectionable to anyone, and I'm relieved to hear that only
          the westerners would be bothered by it.

          Regards

          Steve Price

          --- In African_Arts@yahoogroups.com, "Ricardo J. de Matos Leandro"
          <rjdematos@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wauw, I didn't expect to meet the self-proclaimed ambassador of the
          Mbala
          > people on this forum….ahahahahah.
          >
          >
          >
          > This is very strange, I live in Congo and my family has been in the
          former
          > Zaïre for more than eighty years still I am not shocked by this
          crutch at
          > all. Jan Van Overstraeten, the artist and art-dealer, who added
          this crutch
          > was born in the former Zaïre. The Congolese people to whom I showed
          the
          > photograph where astonished and bemused, they never spoke of any
          lack of
          > respect.
          >
          >
          >
          > Actually, the only bad reactions I got came from Westerners. Isn't
          it
          > ironic? The relations between what some collectors want African art
          to be
          > (pure and untouched) and how it is considered, in 2006, by the
          people who
          > produce it are always intriguing.
          >
          >
          >
          > I thank you all for taking the time to answer this post.
          >
          >
          >
          > Best wishes,
          >
          > Ricardo
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > De: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:African_Arts@yahoogroups.com] Em
          > nome de dwolf22@...
          > Enviada: terça-feira, 4 de Julho de 2006 3:18
          > Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
          > Assunto: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a
          > "masterpiece" a m...
          >
          >
          >
          > I feel this piece's integrity has been compromised ungraciously...
          imposed
          > upon by the 'artists' whim... and presented with this added baggage
          which
          > only serves to diminsh the strength of the piece of it's own merit.
          I see
          > the crutch not as support for a missing limb .. or a damaged
          people .... or
          > of Oprah's good will ..... but rather the crutch of a spiritually
          > handicapped society that can not itself walk in balance imposing
          that crutch
          > on another people ... thereby robbing them of their own power..
          their own
          > beliefs .. their own past.
          >
          >
          >
          > The more it seeps in the more disturbing it is. Isn't it better to
          show some
          > respect for the remnants that remain of the culture that produced
          this piece
          > rather than to degrade it further with some modernist abberation?
          >
          >
          >
          > FREE THE MBALA!
          >
          >
          >
          > (I would probably not have the same reaction were the statue a fake)
          >
        • Erik Lewandowski
          Ricardo, Bravo, I think you have good idea about what majority of the world think about the primitive art, excluding the minorities that are members of this
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 4, 2006
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            Ricardo,
            Bravo,
            I think you have good idea about what majority of the world think about the primitive art, excluding the minorities that are members of this group.
            We think we are experts, and some of us are, but we are also big supporters of this particular line of art, overall we are minority in the world of art. The crutch on the sculpture is reflection of what the majority think not the minority that is what I personally think and interpreted this pieces of art.
            The African arts have been gaining more and more recognition in the world of art. The big auction houses have capitalized on that trend but the rest of the world is still way behind the idea that something that is as simple and as complicated same time is as beautiful as the creations of western artists. Some of the modern painters used very primitive techniques to create their paintings, the masterpieces of modern art. And all of it, because no one else did it before them, therefore, they are masters of what they did, same as the person, sculptor, artist in small tribe created, he did something as primitive but also as unique as no one else did or tried to create something similar to what someone created before him, therefore, he should be as good as the western artists that created something similar. 
            Erik 
             
            "Ricardo J. de Matos Leandro" <rjdematos@...> wrote:
            Wauw, I didn’t expect to meet the self-proclaimed ambassador of the Mbala people on this forum….ahahahahah.
            This is very strange, I live in Congo and my family has been in the former Zaïre for more than eighty years still I am not shocked by this crutch at all. Jan Van Overstraeten, the artist and art-dealer, who added this crutch was born in the former Zaïre. The Congolese people to whom I showed the photograph where astonished and bemused, they never spoke of any lack of respect.
            Actually, the only bad reactions I got came from Westerners. Isn’t it ironic? The relations between what some collectors want African art to be (pure and untouched) and how it is considered, in 2006, by the people who produce it are always intriguing.
            I thank you all for taking the time to answer this post.
            Best wishes,
            Ricardo

            De: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com ] Em nome de dwolf22@...
            Enviada: terça-feira, 4 de Julho de 2006 3:18
            Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
            Assunto: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a "masterpiece" a m...
            I feel this piece's integrity has been compromised ungraciously...  imposed upon by the 'artists' whim... and presented with this added baggage which only serves to diminsh the strength of the piece of it's own merit. I see the crutch not as support for a missing limb .. or a damaged people .... or of Oprah's good will ..... but rather the crutch of a spiritually handicapped society that can not itself walk in balance imposing that crutch on another people ... thereby robbing them of their own power.. their own beliefs .. their own past.
            The more it seeps in the more disturbing it is. Isn't it better to show some respect for the remnants that remain of the culture that produced this piece rather than to degrade it further with some modernist abberation?
            FREE THE MBALA!
            (I would probably not have the same reaction were the statue a fake)

          • GARYGLS2000@aol.com
            Ricardo, you have to put this crutch into the context of modern-day Africa. It comes across as a satire on all the Sierra Leonean and Liberian people who
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 4, 2006
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              Ricardo, you have to put this "crutch" into the context of modern-day Africa. It comes across as a satire on all the Sierra Leonean and Liberian people who are hobbling around Freetown and Monrovia because their legs were chopped off by RUF rebels (not to mention the Congolese who lost limbs to King Leopold's soldiers at the turn of the century but couldn't afford crutches).
            • Paul De Lucco
              Bandundu Province, with its checker-board of cultures, presents a special challenge to art historians. No doubt, there is Hungana influence as well, but I
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 4, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Bandundu Province, with its checker-board of cultures, presents a special challenge to art historians.  No doubt, there is Hungana influence as well, but I find the torso and arms to show a Holo influence on what is a predominantly Mbala figure.  I don't find very good support for this in my photo archive but I attach a picture of a Holo figure from the the Los Angeles County Museum of Art......   
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 5:38 PM
                Subject: RE: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a "masterpiece" a m...

                “Interesting Mbala style, though;  strong Holo influence................”

                Holo or Hungana?


                De: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com ] Em nome de Paul De Lucco
                Enviada: segunda-feira, 3 de Julho de 2006 7:45
                Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                Assunto: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a "masterpiece" a m...

                I think the Mbala figure is as funny as a crutch.

                Interesting Mbala style, though;  strong Holo influence................

                ----- Original Message -----

                Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 1:52 PM

                Subject: RE: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a "masterpiece" a m...

                Hello group,

                I have enjoyed reading your contributions for this very special topic.

                I would like to add my own cent to this discussion: I would like to have your opinion on this Mbala figure artwork. I love it; I would have named it “collector’s support to African art”. What do you think? Is it still African art? I have submitted this artwork to the french speaking AntiquesAfricaines more than a year ago, it was received quiet badly. I wonder what you will think of it.

                Taken from http://www.galeriecongo.com/book.asp?chapter=2&page=20 , the site of Jean Van Overstaeten (member of the Bruneaf).

                Best wishes,

                Ricardo


                De: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com [mailto: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com ] Em nome de Rand African Art
                Enviada: quinta-feira, 29 de Junho de 2006 23:06
                Para: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
                Assunto: Re: [African_Arts] Re: Verite Fang Ngil mask - What makes a "masterpiece" a m...

                This has been one of the more interesting and educational discussions, at least for me, that I’ve seen in the discussion groups for a long time.

                I’ve never studied art history; I’ve never really ‘formally’ studied anything dealing with art. I’ve never really put much thought into what a masterpiece is and what makes it a masterpiece before I saw the statement about the mask in the auction listing.

                The statement on the auction listing (emphasis mine):

                “The fact is indisputable: it is an absolute masterpiece of art.”

                Sotheby’s uses “rare” and “fine” and “superb”, but I guess if you’re going for multi-million dollar bids you need “masterpiece” in the description. That way the children of the buyers can explain to their friends that it is “a Fang mask from Gabon and Alain de Monbrison, oh, and it’s a Masterpiece”. (g r i n)

                When you look at the definitions of “indisputable” and “absolute” in the dictionary, and you follow the conversations in this discussion group about the mask, I think you see that to many people the fact IS disputable that this mask is an absolute masterpiece of art.< /div>

                Originally I asked myself if I was missing something, as I often feel I do. I looked at the photo of the mask that was taken from the front (see below), it was fairly well executed from an artistic view point in my humble opinion, nice lines, nice presence to it. The eyes were cock-eyed/off set from each other a bit though and the mouth seemed a bit off center. Those things made it a bit unsymmetrical in my opinion, and that was something I didn’t like about it very much. I was taught by my old mentor to look at the symmetry of an object, that was the sign of a skilled carver. I thought the mask had a nice presence to it, but in my mind I thought of “masterpieces” differently than I thought of this mask.

                Photo link to the front photo of the mask:

                I’ll agree with Daniel Wolf’s statement below:

                “No doubt it is a magnificent mask .. carved by a competent hand… but the value that has been placed on it comes from streams other than that of workmanship in my opinion.

                Having said all that ... I am curious... How many here given that they had never seen this mask and knew nothing of it's provenance would have quickly paid say 10-20 thousand .. or even 5-10 thousand for this piece had they seen it at an estate sale .. or from a runner...or at an antique store? Just curious

                To answer that question, I’d say that I would have a hard time paying 10-20 thousand for the mask, even if money wasn’t a problem , even though the mask does have some appeal to me. There were other objects in the Vérité auction that made my heart skip a beat, and if money wasn’t an object I would have paid as much as I had to in order to acquire them. Maybe that is what happened with someone else with the Fang Ngil mask…

                In preparation for my You Be the Judge page on Fang Ngil masks that I’m putting together, I compiled a group of photographs/scans of all of the published masks I could find and I showed them to a couple of friends of mine who have no knowledge about Tribal art at all, but are collectors of other art, so I could get an “off the street” reaction to them. It was very interesting to see them pick their favorites.

                A masterpiece is many things, and the meaning of “masterpiece” seems to be different to some than it is to others. I’m convinced that there are many other factors to consider above and beyond the craftsmanship and composition of an object in calling it a masterpiece. Everyone brought up many great points to support this.

                I like how Craig simpley stated it:

                "I think a "masterpiece" be it music or art can be relevant to
                circumstance,time and trends
                ."

                This discussion about this mask and this topic has really changed my opinion about what makes a masterpiece a masterpiece. Great discussions!

                Cheers!

                RAND



                Craig Lewis <craig_n_emma@...> wrote:

                Daniel,
                I think we may possibly have come up with what is a "masterpiece"
                with our musical analogies!!!

                From what we have both said in our recent posts it seems maybe we are
                suggesting the same thing. That is that a masterpiece is only a
                masterpiece to someone who believes it is just that.

                To once more use the musical analogy,someone that believes a Hendrix
                piece is a masterpiece will believe so, while someone who believes a
                Mozart piece is a masterpiece will similarly believe so.(My own
                particular favourite "masterpiece" to perform and listen to is Bouree
                in Em for Lute by JS Bach).

                Whoever thinks that the Verite Fang mask is a masterpiece then to
                them it is, to Gary (I think said)it is ugly. Who can convince Gary
                that this piece is a masterpiece? ? Nobody, if it's ugly to him then
                thats what it is. I think the mask is excellent and does have a great
                presence, but masterpiece? I'm not too sure.

                I think a "masterpiece" be it music or art can be relevant to
                circumstance, time and trends. I think this is showing in the
                discussion on this mask.

                P.S. Perhaps a masterpiece is something that can provoke this much
                interest and discussion!

                Cheers
                Craig

                --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, dwolf22@... wrote:
                >
                > Point taken Craig. Thanks for your perspective. I would concede
                that one of
                > the hallmarks of a 'master' is the ability to present the profound
                in whatever
                > form chosen... and certainly simplicity is an option to the
                masters hand.
                >
                > I appreciated the musical analogies .. and while I play guitar
                myself .. and
                > love Hendrix, Dylan, etc.... I don't think I would catagorize their
                work as
                > masterpieces - as I think one would have to look towards Classical
                for the
                > true masterworks .. Mozart, Beethoven etc. If Mozart and Hendrix
                were both alive
                > ... could Mozart understand what Hendrix was doing? I think yes ..
                he could
                > discect and digest it and play it back note for note .. or better
                yet add to
                > it in a way that would make it his own..... could Hendrix do the
                same with
                > Mozart? I rather doubt it.
                >
                > It's easier to quantify something as a masterpiece in relative
                terms ....
                > such as a 'masterpiece' of 60's psychedelic rock, or a masterpiece
                of literary
                > fiction ... I've even seen 'masterpieces' of crayon art on friends
                > refrigerators!
                > But ultimately from a more macro view .. true masters are few and
                far
                > between. Just my opinion of course.
                >
                > Daniel
                >

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