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4421Re: [African_Arts] Re: REAL FANG & PUNU XIX CENTURY ??

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  • M.E.F.
    Oct 13, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Steve,
       
      I was just being fastidious. I actually am on the same side as you in this but was being careful with the use of terminology.
       
      Best regards, M

      --- On Tue, 10/13/09, spric1h <sprice@...> wrote:

      From: spric1h <sprice@...>
      Subject: [African_Arts] Re: REAL FANG & PUNU XIX CENTURY ??
      To: African_Arts@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 2:27 PM

       
      Hi Margalit

      I don't want to get into the politics of various economic systems here - this isn't the place for it. But it is a fact that if nobody could profit from transferring ownership of pieces of African art, most of today's collectors wouldn't even know it exists. It's also a fact that there are people who abuse the system. That's unfortunate in many ways, but humans are like that. If I am forced to choose between dissemination of art and preventing the abusers from profiting from it, I'll select dissemination of art. I don't know of any additional practical alternatives.

      Regards

      Steve Price

      --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, "M.E.F." <mfliegelmann@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Steve,
      >  
      > While I agree with you that money economy is a necessary condition not only for collecting but for a lot else that not even the most ardent anti-globalists would wish to do without, simply the existence of "Capitalism" is not covered by the simple existence of "Capital.  Capitalism is a geschtalt that has a philosophy behind it and is a complex system which is not started and ended in the existence of capital. I am sure you know that but just wanted to clarify a bit. Be well, Margalit
      >
      > --- On Mon, 10/12/09, spric1h <sprice@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: spric1h <sprice@...>
      > Subject: [African_Arts] Re: REAL FANG & PUNU XIX CENTURY ??
      > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 11:45 AM
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Ed
      >
      > I enjoyed reading your post - it is thoughtful, insightful, and educational. One question, though. Near the end, you wrote, "... narcissism and capitalism has their reign ..."
      >
      > Narcissism and its interference with collector education is obvious enough to anyone who reads this forum (or any other collector-oriented forum). But capitalism as an enemy of collectors? Without it, how could there even be collectors or museum collections? Nobody can deny that there are abusers of the system. But anyone who has participated in the world of collecting, even in Subsaharan Africa, would have been unable to do so unless some capitalist enabled him to do so.
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > Steve Price
      >
      > --- In African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com, Ed Jones <bucit@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Mike wrote ..."Perhaps we need to show more support and encouragement  to fellow collectors, otherwise some people will, I am sorry to say, just be throwing their money down the drain".
      > >  
      > > How do you suppose we can support and encourage fellow supporters in an effort to prevent them from from throwing their money down the drain?  Is there a "homogenized" or didactic approach which is more effective unilaterally?  Life itself is a matter of perspective based upon knowledge, experience, ethnic/cultural, religious and certainly monetary and unique individual personality and other subjective traits .  It is possible to share common interests in a group or collective.  However, I see it as an impossibility to prevent individuals from throwing their money down the drain... as if I or even "we" may not be doing a bit the same (lol) !! 
      > > "A fool and his/her money is soon departed", "Teach a man to fish rather than give him fish"... problem is, who said that YOU can teach them? 
      > >  
      > > In general, people don't want to hear what is being said unless it tickles their ear and fancy with agreement.  As  one comes to a deeper conscious (bit of truth or reality) that it is not possible to save the world and keep others from experiencing the terrible wonders and bliss of personal responsibility for mistakes, judgments and failures because these things can be mechanisms to aide in development towards maturity.  We all experience this at some level eventually, so perhaps self-learning and application is better than didactic messages and institutional regulation and shelter.  Anyone that has ever raised children should know this well.  In the end, one will know who they are apt to support, encourage, guide and teach, and those that they cannot.
      > > John brought up many good points.  The essence (to me), was just another reiteration of a sensible and objective "educated" perspective.   Meanwhile,  the world keeps spinning, life is given and taken, there is acceptance and surly rejection, the strong will continue to tread on the weak, and narcissism and capitalism has their reign and companionship with respect to the arts... in this case, "African tribal arts".
      > >   
      > > Ed
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ____________ _________ _________ __
      > > From: "lokaart@ " <lokaart@ >
      > > To: African_Arts@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Sent: Sun, October 11, 2009 7:34:07 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [African_Arts] REAL FANG & PUNU XIX CENTURY ??
      > >
      > >  
      > > John writes that he disagrees with what I have said. And yet, when I read what he writes, I must say that I agree with him! I think that there are two points here. Firstly, yes we can say that certain objects do not appear to be genuine solely on the basis of photographs. In the case of the Fang/Punu items shown here it is quite obvious that they are not authentic. But, if you have a look at, say, the African section of Ebay uk you will find many objects shown that look genuine, but which are almost certainly fakes. Here, I think, it is impossible to tell what they are without a physical examination - although, as these items often come with low starting prices, then I suggest that this is a bit of a give away! Secondly, the question of terms. I have just read a piece on the Swiss collector Udo Horstmann, who started collecting African art whilst living in South Africa. When he returned to Europe he realised that his pieces were not up to the standard
      > of
      > > pieces that he was seeing in museums and other private collections. According to Horstmann, "Suddenly I realised I'd got a collection of a lot of crap." As we all know Mr Horstmann now owns one of the world's great collections of African art. I have recently been to see two private English collections of African art. In both cases I would say that over 90%  of the items shown to me were, by my definition, fakes. In other words, copies of pieces that can be seen in museums but which were, in these cases, made recently to deceive unsuspecting buyers. I also note that several websites, set up by collectors to show their collections, are full of pieces that, again, do not fit my definition of authentic Africa art. The thing that I find very hard to explain, is that these collectors seem quite happy to collect this rubbish. And this, in a round about way, brings me back to pictures of items that are sent to the group for authentication. I am amazed at
      > > just how many people seem to collect poor pieces. And yet seem happy to do so. Sure, we all make mistakes when buying tribal art. We are all human after all. Perhaps we need to show more support and encouragement  to fellow collectors, otherwise some people will, I am sorry to say, just be throwing their money down the drain.
      > >
      > > Mike
      > >
      >


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