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Re: [Adams Morgan] Re: Cyclists are becoming a problem

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  • Andrew Heitman
    To be honest, as both a commuter and a cyclist, I have had way more issues with cyclists when driving than motorists while cycling. And actually as a
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 3 6:33 AM
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      To be honest, as both a commuter and a cyclist, I have had way more issues with cyclists when driving than motorists while cycling. And actually as a pedestrian, I am more concerned about a cyclist flying down the street and hitting me...because that has almost happened more times than I care to recount.

      On Mar 3, 2012 9:14 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
       

      I am not screaming bike rights at all. I completely agree with you that everyone needs to do a better job of following the rules.

      The original post took a tragic individual incident and went on to make some very broad generalizations from the point of view of a driver. My post did the same thing from the view of a cyclist. Both are wrong.

      The fact is that no one - drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists - does a good job of following the rules. But some are worse than most, and those individual encounters tend to form the basis of our broader perceptions from whatever point of view we take. The original post was as off base as my parody of it.

      --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:
      >
      > The reality is that both cyclists and motorists need to follow rules
      > better. Screaming bike rights at this incident is ridiculous.
      > On Mar 3, 2012 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of
      > > automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is
      > > presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and
      > > pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand
      > > that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed,
      > > change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks,
      > > cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop
      > > signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations.
      > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws
      > > (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to
      > > actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
      > >
      > > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem
      > > since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem
      > > to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with
      > > DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont
      > > Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he
      > > couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city
      > > officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is
      > > not a temporary parking lane.
      > >
      > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I
      > > can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police
      > > would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe
      > > drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to
      > > urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment.
      > > Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009.
      > > The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.
      > >
      > > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a
      > > good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer
      > > number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is
      > > presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist
      > > do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as
      > > cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go
      > > against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes.
      > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such
      > > laws.
      > > > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of
      > > a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be
      > > as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just
      > > this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at
      > > staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
      > > >
      > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't
      > > tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would
      > > be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that
      > > someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge
      > > cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
      > > >
      > > > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
      > > >
      > > > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a
      > > Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital
      > > after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the
      > > wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not wearing
      > > a helmet."
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > A picture of Streiff from his Facebook page.
      > > >
      > > > "According to a police report of the accident, Streiff, a resident of
      > > Sherman Avenue NW, was riding alongside a lumber truck as it traveled
      > > southbound towards the intersection of 11th and U Streets NW, where the
      > > light was red. At the intersection, the truck started moving forward on red
      > > to make a right turn onto U Street. At the same time, Streiff reportedly
      > > started moving alongside the truck, but with the intention of proceeding
      > > straight down 11th Street. As the truck turned, Streiff was knocked down
      > > and dragged under the truck for some 30 feet.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Though Streiff could not be interviewed at the scene by police due to
      > > the extent of his injuries, police issued him tickets for running a red
      > > light, failing to yield the right of way and failing to wear a helmet.
      > > According to D.C. law, only children under the age of 16 are required to
      > > wear helmets; Streiff is 29. (The driver was not cited at the scene.)"
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >

    • dcblogs administrator
      There s a never-ending discussion and flamewar in the District about where the greater fault rest. We all know that. But what is true is the point raised by
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 3 6:59 AM
      • 0 Attachment

        There's a never-ending discussion and flamewar in the District about where the greater fault rest. We all know that.  But what is true is the point raised by the original poster: Large numbers of bikers don't wear helmets, especially the majority of Bikeshare users. Once you are on the bike the issue isn't fault it's survival.



        Pat 






         

        On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:
         

        To be honest, as both a commuter and a cyclist, I have had way more issues with cyclists when driving than motorists while cycling. And actually as a pedestrian, I am more concerned about a cyclist flying down the street and hitting me...because that has almost happened more times than I care to recount.

        On Mar 3, 2012 9:14 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
         

        I am not screaming bike rights at all. I completely agree with you that everyone needs to do a better job of following the rules.

        The original post took a tragic individual incident and went on to make some very broad generalizations from the point of view of a driver. My post did the same thing from the view of a cyclist. Both are wrong.

        The fact is that no one - drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists - does a good job of following the rules. But some are worse than most, and those individual encounters tend to form the basis of our broader perceptions from whatever point of view we take. The original post was as off base as my parody of it.

        --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:
        >
        > The reality is that both cyclists and motorists need to follow rules
        > better. Screaming bike rights at this incident is ridiculous.
        > On Mar 3, 2012 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of
        > > automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is
        > > presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and
        > > pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand
        > > that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed,
        > > change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks,
        > > cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop
        > > signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations.
        > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws
        > > (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to
        > > actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
        > >
        > > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem
        > > since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem
        > > to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with
        > > DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont
        > > Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he
        > > couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city
        > > officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is
        > > not a temporary parking lane.
        > >
        > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I
        > > can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police
        > > would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe
        > > drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to
        > > urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment.
        > > Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009.
        > > The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.
        > >
        > > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a
        > > good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer
        > > number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is
        > > presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist
        > > do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as
        > > cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go
        > > against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes.
        > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such
        > > laws.
        > > > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of
        > > a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be
        > > as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just
        > > this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at
        > > staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
        > > >
        > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't
        > > tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would
        > > be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that
        > > someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge
        > > cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
        > > >
        > > > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
        > > >
        > > > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a
        > > Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital
        > > after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the
        > > wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not wearing
        > > a helmet."
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > A picture of Streiff from his Facebook page.
        > > >
        > > > "According to a police report of the accident, Streiff, a resident of
        > > Sherman Avenue NW, was riding alongside a lumber truck as it traveled
        > > southbound towards the intersection of 11th and U Streets NW, where the
        > > light was red. At the intersection, the truck started moving forward on red
        > > to make a right turn onto U Street. At the same time, Streiff reportedly
        > > started moving alongside the truck, but with the intention of proceeding
        > > straight down 11th Street. As the truck turned, Streiff was knocked down
        > > and dragged under the truck for some 30 feet.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Though Streiff could not be interviewed at the scene by police due to
        > > the extent of his injuries, police issued him tickets for running a red
        > > light, failing to yield the right of way and failing to wear a helmet.
        > > According to D.C. law, only children under the age of 16 are required to
        > > wear helmets; Streiff is 29. (The driver was not cited at the scene.)"
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >


      • Richard Hancuff
        Precisely.
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 3 7:33 AM
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          Precisely.

          On Mar 3, 2012, at 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:

           



          I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed, change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations. Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).

          It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is not a temporary parking lane.

          I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment. Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009. The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.

          --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes. Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such laws.
          > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
          >
          > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
          >
          > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
          >
          > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not wearing a helmet."
          >
          >
          >
          > A picture of Streiff from his Facebook page.
          >
          > "According to a police report of the accident, Streiff, a resident of Sherman Avenue NW, was riding alongside a lumber truck as it traveled southbound towards the intersection of 11th and U Streets NW, where the light was red. At the intersection, the truck started moving forward on red to make a right turn onto U Street. At the same time, Streiff reportedly started moving alongside the truck, but with the intention of proceeding straight down 11th Street. As the truck turned, Streiff was knocked down and dragged under the truck for some 30 feet.
          >
          >
          > Though Streiff could not be interviewed at the scene by police due to the extent of his injuries, police issued him tickets for running a red light, failing to yield the right of way and failing to wear a helmet. According to D.C. law, only children under the age of 16 are required to wear helmets; Streiff is 29. (The driver was not cited at the scene.)"
          >

        • Jack Santucci
          As a cyclist, I ve had a lot of issues with cyclists. Seriously, take the iPod out when you re riding through rush-hour traffic. This should be common sense.
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 3 7:35 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            As a cyclist, I've had a lot of issues with cyclists.

            Seriously, take the iPod out when you're riding through rush-hour traffic. This should be common sense.



            On Mar 3, 2012, at 9:33, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:

             

            To be honest, as both a commuter and a cyclist, I have had way more issues with cyclists when driving than motorists while cycling. And actually as a pedestrian, I am more concerned about a cyclist flying down the street and hitting me...because that has almost happened more times than I care to recount.

            On Mar 3, 2012 9:14 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
             

            I am not screaming bike rights at all. I completely agree with you that everyone needs to do a better job of following the rules.

            The original post took a tragic individual incident and went on to make some very broad generalizations from the point of view of a driver. My post did the same thing from the view of a cyclist. Both are wrong.

            The fact is that no one - drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists - does a good job of following the rules. But some are worse than most, and those individual encounters tend to form the basis of our broader perceptions from whatever point of view we take. The original post was as off base as my parody of it.

            --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:
            >
            > The reality is that both cyclists and motorists need to follow rules
            > better. Screaming bike rights at this incident is ridiculous.
            > On Mar 3, 2012 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of
            > > automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is
            > > presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and
            > > pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand
            > > that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed,
            > > change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks,
            > > cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop
            > > signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations.
            > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws
            > > (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to
            > > actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
            > >
            > > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem
            > > since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem
            > > to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with
            > > DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont
            > > Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he
            > > couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city
            > > officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is
            > > not a temporary parking lane.
            > >
            > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I
            > > can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police
            > > would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe
            > > drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to
            > > urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment.
            > > Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009.
            > > The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.
            > >
            > > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a
            > > good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer
            > > number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is
            > > presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist
            > > do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as
            > > cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go
            > > against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes.
            > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such
            > > laws.
            > > > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of
            > > a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be
            > > as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just
            > > this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at
            > > staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
            > > >
            > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't
            > > tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would
            > > be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that
            > > someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge
            > > cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
            > > >
            > > > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
            > > >
            > > > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a
            > > Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital
            > > after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the
            > > wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not wearing
            > > a helmet."
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > A picture of Streiff from his Facebook page.
            > > >
            > > > "According to a police report of the accident, Streiff, a resident of
            > > Sherman Avenue NW, was riding alongside a lumber truck as it traveled
            > > southbound towards the intersection of 11th and U Streets NW, where the
            > > light was red. At the intersection, the truck started moving forward on red
            > > to make a right turn onto U Street. At the same time, Streiff reportedly
            > > started moving alongside the truck, but with the intention of proceeding
            > > straight down 11th Street. As the truck turned, Streiff was knocked down
            > > and dragged under the truck for some 30 feet.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Though Streiff could not be interviewed at the scene by police due to
            > > the extent of his injuries, police issued him tickets for running a red
            > > light, failing to yield the right of way and failing to wear a helmet.
            > > According to D.C. law, only children under the age of 16 are required to
            > > wear helmets; Streiff is 29. (The driver was not cited at the scene.)"
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >

          • Andrew Heitman
            Agreed.
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 3 8:08 AM
            • 0 Attachment

              Agreed.

              On Mar 3, 2012 10:35 AM, "Jack Santucci" <jack.santucci@...> wrote:
               

              As a cyclist, I've had a lot of issues with cyclists.

              Seriously, take the iPod out when you're riding through rush-hour traffic. This should be common sense.



              On Mar 3, 2012, at 9:33, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:

               

              To be honest, as both a commuter and a cyclist, I have had way more issues with cyclists when driving than motorists while cycling. And actually as a pedestrian, I am more concerned about a cyclist flying down the street and hitting me...because that has almost happened more times than I care to recount.

              On Mar 3, 2012 9:14 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
               

              I am not screaming bike rights at all. I completely agree with you that everyone needs to do a better job of following the rules.

              The original post took a tragic individual incident and went on to make some very broad generalizations from the point of view of a driver. My post did the same thing from the view of a cyclist. Both are wrong.

              The fact is that no one - drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists - does a good job of following the rules. But some are worse than most, and those individual encounters tend to form the basis of our broader perceptions from whatever point of view we take. The original post was as off base as my parody of it.

              --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:
              >
              > The reality is that both cyclists and motorists need to follow rules
              > better. Screaming bike rights at this incident is ridiculous.
              > On Mar 3, 2012 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of
              > > automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is
              > > presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and
              > > pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand
              > > that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed,
              > > change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks,
              > > cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop
              > > signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations.
              > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws
              > > (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to
              > > actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
              > >
              > > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem
              > > since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem
              > > to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with
              > > DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont
              > > Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he
              > > couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city
              > > officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is
              > > not a temporary parking lane.
              > >
              > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I
              > > can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police
              > > would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe
              > > drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to
              > > urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment.
              > > Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009.
              > > The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.
              > >
              > > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a
              > > good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer
              > > number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is
              > > presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist
              > > do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as
              > > cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go
              > > against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes.
              > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such
              > > laws.
              > > > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of
              > > a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be
              > > as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just
              > > this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at
              > > staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
              > > >
              > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't
              > > tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would
              > > be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that
              > > someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge
              > > cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
              > > >
              > > > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
              > > >
              > > > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a
              > > Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital
              > > after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the
              > > wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not wearing
              > > a helmet."
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > A picture of Streiff from his Facebook page.
              > > >
              > > > "According to a police report of the accident, Streiff, a resident of
              > > Sherman Avenue NW, was riding alongside a lumber truck as it traveled
              > > southbound towards the intersection of 11th and U Streets NW, where the
              > > light was red. At the intersection, the truck started moving forward on red
              > > to make a right turn onto U Street. At the same time, Streiff reportedly
              > > started moving alongside the truck, but with the intention of proceeding
              > > straight down 11th Street. As the truck turned, Streiff was knocked down
              > > and dragged under the truck for some 30 feet.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Though Streiff could not be interviewed at the scene by police due to
              > > the extent of his injuries, police issued him tickets for running a red
              > > light, failing to yield the right of way and failing to wear a helmet.
              > > According to D.C. law, only children under the age of 16 are required to
              > > wear helmets; Streiff is 29. (The driver was not cited at the scene.)"
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >

            • Ryan Bingham
              Agreed as well. As a pedestrian, I ve had far more near accidents with cyclists than motorists. For many that I ve seen, it s as if they think traffic laws
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 3 8:10 AM
              • 0 Attachment

                Agreed as well.  As a pedestrian, I've had far more near accidents with cyclists than motorists.  For many that I've seen, it's as if they think traffic laws don't apply to them.

                On Mar 3, 2012 11:08 AM, "Andrew Heitman" <Aheitman@...> wrote:
                 

                Agreed.

                On Mar 3, 2012 10:35 AM, "Jack Santucci" <jack.santucci@...> wrote:
                 

                As a cyclist, I've had a lot of issues with cyclists.

                Seriously, take the iPod out when you're riding through rush-hour traffic. This should be common sense.



                On Mar 3, 2012, at 9:33, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:

                 

                To be honest, as both a commuter and a cyclist, I have had way more issues with cyclists when driving than motorists while cycling. And actually as a pedestrian, I am more concerned about a cyclist flying down the street and hitting me...because that has almost happened more times than I care to recount.

                On Mar 3, 2012 9:14 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
                 

                I am not screaming bike rights at all. I completely agree with you that everyone needs to do a better job of following the rules.

                The original post took a tragic individual incident and went on to make some very broad generalizations from the point of view of a driver. My post did the same thing from the view of a cyclist. Both are wrong.

                The fact is that no one - drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists - does a good job of following the rules. But some are worse than most, and those individual encounters tend to form the basis of our broader perceptions from whatever point of view we take. The original post was as off base as my parody of it.

                --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:
                >
                > The reality is that both cyclists and motorists need to follow rules
                > better. Screaming bike rights at this incident is ridiculous.
                > On Mar 3, 2012 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of
                > > automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is
                > > presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and
                > > pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand
                > > that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed,
                > > change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks,
                > > cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop
                > > signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations.
                > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws
                > > (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to
                > > actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
                > >
                > > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem
                > > since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem
                > > to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with
                > > DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont
                > > Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he
                > > couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city
                > > officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is
                > > not a temporary parking lane.
                > >
                > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I
                > > can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police
                > > would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe
                > > drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to
                > > urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment.
                > > Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009.
                > > The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.
                > >
                > > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a
                > > good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer
                > > number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is
                > > presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist
                > > do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as
                > > cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go
                > > against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes.
                > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such
                > > laws.
                > > > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of
                > > a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be
                > > as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just
                > > this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at
                > > staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
                > > >
                > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't
                > > tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would
                > > be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that
                > > someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge
                > > cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
                > > >
                > > > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
                > > >
                > > > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a
                > > Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital
                > > after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the
                > > wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not wearing
                > > a helmet."
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > A picture of Streiff from his Facebook page.
                > > >
                > > > "According to a police report of the accident, Streiff, a resident of
                > > Sherman Avenue NW, was riding alongside a lumber truck as it traveled
                > > southbound towards the intersection of 11th and U Streets NW, where the
                > > light was red. At the intersection, the truck started moving forward on red
                > > to make a right turn onto U Street. At the same time, Streiff reportedly
                > > started moving alongside the truck, but with the intention of proceeding
                > > straight down 11th Street. As the truck turned, Streiff was knocked down
                > > and dragged under the truck for some 30 feet.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Though Streiff could not be interviewed at the scene by police due to
                > > the extent of his injuries, police issued him tickets for running a red
                > > light, failing to yield the right of way and failing to wear a helmet.
                > > According to D.C. law, only children under the age of 16 are required to
                > > wear helmets; Streiff is 29. (The driver was not cited at the scene.)"
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >

              • kevin.cashman
                Nicely done. I was just about to post the same thing. Traffic injuries and fatalities due to automobiles are unacceptably high. Cyclists may annoy motorists
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 3 9:48 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Nicely done. I was just about to post the same thing. Traffic injuries and fatalities due to automobiles are unacceptably high. Cyclists may annoy motorists who feel entitled to the road, but at least they are a lot less dangerous. Once we have dedicated and effective bike infrastructure and laws that make sense for cyclists, then I think we can complain about cyclists' conduct.

                  --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed, change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations. Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
                  >
                  > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is not a temporary parking lane.
                  >
                  > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment. Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009. The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes. Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such laws.
                  > > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
                  > >
                  > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
                  > >
                  > > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
                  > >
                  > > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not wearing a helmet."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > A picture of Streiff from his Facebook page.
                  > >
                  > > "According to a police report of the accident, Streiff, a resident of Sherman Avenue NW, was riding alongside a lumber truck as it traveled southbound towards the intersection of 11th and U Streets NW, where the light was red. At the intersection, the truck started moving forward on red to make a right turn onto U Street. At the same time, Streiff reportedly started moving alongside the truck, but with the intention of proceeding straight down 11th Street. As the truck turned, Streiff was knocked down and dragged under the truck for some 30 feet.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Though Streiff could not be interviewed at the scene by police due to the extent of his injuries, police issued him tickets for running a red light, failing to yield the right of way and failing to wear a helmet. According to D.C. law, only children under the age of 16 are required to wear helmets; Streiff is 29. (The driver was not cited at the scene.)"
                  > >
                  >
                • lancefromdc
                  cept the fact that while drivers might not be following the rules 1 to 2% of the time ... that s probably the same percentage of cyclists who ARE following
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 3 1:04 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    'cept the fact that while drivers might not be following the rules 1 to 2% of the time ... that's probably the same percentage of cyclists who ARE following them. For example, tell me if you have EVER witnessed a cyclist waiting their turn (behind other traffic) at a 4 way stop sign ... Cyclists are bound by the SAME laws as other vehicles with very few exceptions. But by and large DC cyclists are not following these laws. A few expensive tickets could easily rectify this situation and preclude terrible incidents such as the accident referred to below.

                    When bikes were rare on our streets, no one cared if cyclists were hard and fast in following the traffic laws. By and larger drivers and pedestrians made allowances for the special needs of bicyclists (i.e. the harsh reality that it's hard to start and stop on a bike). But now that the District has worked to encourage the non-recreational use of bikes and bikes are to be found everywhere and at all times, it's simply not possible for drivers to continue to extend these same courtesies anymore, and it's time for cyclists to either start playing by the public's rules or stop cycling on the public's roads.



                    --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am not screaming bike rights at all. I completely agree with you that everyone needs to do a better job of following the rules.
                    >
                    > The original post took a tragic individual incident and went on to make some very broad generalizations from the point of view of a driver. My post did the same thing from the view of a cyclist. Both are wrong.
                    >
                    > The fact is that no one - drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists - does a good job of following the rules. But some are worse than most, and those individual encounters tend to form the basis of our broader perceptions from whatever point of view we take. The original post was as off base as my parody of it.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The reality is that both cyclists and motorists need to follow rules
                    > > better. Screaming bike rights at this incident is ridiculous.
                    > > On Mar 3, 2012 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > **
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of
                    > > > automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is
                    > > > presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and
                    > > > pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand
                    > > > that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed,
                    > > > change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks,
                    > > > cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop
                    > > > signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations.
                    > > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws
                    > > > (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to
                    > > > actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
                    > > >
                    > > > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem
                    > > > since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem
                    > > > to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with
                    > > > DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont
                    > > > Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he
                    > > > couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city
                    > > > officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is
                    > > > not a temporary parking lane.
                    > > >
                    > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I
                    > > > can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police
                    > > > would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe
                    > > > drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to
                    > > > urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment.
                    > > > Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009.
                    > > > The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a
                    > > > good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer
                    > > > number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is
                    > > > presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist
                    > > > do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as
                    > > > cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go
                    > > > against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes.
                    > > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such
                    > > > laws.
                    > > > > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of
                    > > > a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be
                    > > > as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just
                    > > > this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at
                    > > > staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't
                    > > > tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would
                    > > > be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that
                    > > > someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge
                    > > > cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a
                    > > > Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital
                    > > > after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the
                    > > > wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not wearing
                    > > > a helmet."
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > A picture of Streiff from his Facebook page.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "According to a police report of the accident, Streiff, a resident of
                    > > > Sherman Avenue NW, was riding alongside a lumber truck as it traveled
                    > > > southbound towards the intersection of 11th and U Streets NW, where the
                    > > > light was red. At the intersection, the truck started moving forward on red
                    > > > to make a right turn onto U Street. At the same time, Streiff reportedly
                    > > > started moving alongside the truck, but with the intention of proceeding
                    > > > straight down 11th Street. As the truck turned, Streiff was knocked down
                    > > > and dragged under the truck for some 30 feet.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Though Streiff could not be interviewed at the scene by police due to
                    > > > the extent of his injuries, police issued him tickets for running a red
                    > > > light, failing to yield the right of way and failing to wear a helmet.
                    > > > According to D.C. law, only children under the age of 16 are required to
                    > > > wear helmets; Streiff is 29. (The driver was not cited at the scene.)"
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Andrew Heitman
                    Forget waiting their turn. I d be pumped to see them actually stop ... 2% of the time ... that s probably the same percentage of cyclists who ARE following
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 3 1:55 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Forget waiting their turn.  I'd be pumped to see them actually stop

                      On Saturday, March 3, 2012, lancefromdc <salonial@...> wrote:
                      >  
                      >
                      > 'cept the fact that while drivers might not be following the rules 1 to 2% of the time ... that's probably the same percentage of cyclists who ARE following them. For example, tell me if you have EVER witnessed a cyclist waiting their turn (behind other traffic) at a 4 way stop sign ... Cyclists are bound by the SAME laws as other vehicles with very few exceptions. But by and large DC cyclists are not following these laws. A few expensive tickets could easily rectify this situation and preclude terrible incidents such as the accident referred to below.
                      >
                      > When bikes were rare on our streets, no one cared if cyclists were hard and fast in following the traffic laws. By and larger drivers and pedestrians made allowances for the special needs of bicyclists (i.e. the harsh reality that it's hard to start and stop on a bike). But now that the District has worked to encourage the non-recreational use of bikes and bikes are to be found everywhere and at all times, it's simply not possible for drivers to continue to extend these same courtesies anymore, and it's time for cyclists to either start playing by the public's rules or stop cycling on the public's roads.
                      >
                      > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> I am not screaming bike rights at all. I completely agree with you that everyone needs to do a better job of following the rules.
                      >>
                      >> The original post took a tragic individual incident and went on to make some very broad generalizations from the point of view of a driver. My post did the same thing from the view of a cyclist. Both are wrong.
                      >>
                      >> The fact is that no one - drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists - does a good job of following the rules. But some are worse than most, and those individual encounters tend to form the basis of our broader perceptions from whatever point of view we take. The original post was as off base as my parody of it.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > The reality is that both cyclists and motorists need to follow rules
                      >> > better. Screaming bike rights at this incident is ridiculous.
                      >> > On Mar 3, 2012 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > > **
                      >> > >
                      >> > >
                      >> > >
                      >> > >
                      >> > > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of
                      >> > > automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is
                      >> > > presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and
                      >> > > pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand
                      >> > > that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed,
                      >> > > change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks,
                      >> > > cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop
                      >> > > signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations.
                      >> > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws
                      >> > > (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to
                      >> > > actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
                      >> > >
                      >> > > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem
                      >> > > since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem
                      >> > > to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with
                      >> > > DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont
                      >> > > Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he
                      >> > > couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city
                      >> > > officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is
                      >> > > not a temporary parking lane.
                      >> > >
                      >> > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I
                      >> > > can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police
                      >> > > would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe
                      >> > > drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to
                      >> > > urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment.
                      >> > > Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009.
                      >> > > The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.
                      >> > >
                      >> > > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@> wrote:
                      >> > > >
                      >> > > >
                      >> > > > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a
                      >> > > good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer
                      >> > > number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is
                      >> > > presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist
                      >> > > do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as
                      >> > > cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go
                      >> > > against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes.
                      >> > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such
                      >> > > laws.
                      >> > > > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of
                      >> > > a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be
                      >> > > as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just
                      >> > > this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at
                      >> > > staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
                      >> > > >
                      >> > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't
                      >> > > tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would
                      >> > > be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that
                      >> > > someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge
                      >> > > cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
                      >> > > >
                      >> > > > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
                      >> > > >
                      >> > > > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a
                      >> > > Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital
                      >> > > after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the
                      >> > > wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not w
                      >
                      >
                    • A
                      There are certainly cyclists who flout the rules, just like drivers. But there is also a lot of misinformation in this thread. As an example, even though the
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 3 2:25 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        There are certainly cyclists who flout the rules, just like drivers.

                        But there is also a lot of misinformation in this thread.

                        As an example, even though the cyclist that was injured on U St. was
                        cited for not wearing a helmet, there is no legal requirement that he
                        had to have been wearing a helmet.  Just because the cyclist was
                        ticketed does not mean he was at fault.  Indeed, there is a brochure
                        put out by the city in cooperation with WABA that lists many common
                        citation erors by police in bike/car incidents.  See
                        http://www.dc.gov/DC/DDOT/On+Your+Street/Bicycles+and+Pedestrians/Bicycles/DC+Common+Enforcement+Errors+Involving+Bicyclists
                        for more information.

                        I urge patience while the outcome of the investigation is still pending.

                        As another example, Lance bemoans that cyclists don't wait in line at
                        4 way stops.  But, while bicyclists are certainly required to stop at
                        signs, they are not required to take a position behind the last car in
                        the queue and wait in line like cars are. Section 1201.3(b) of the DC
                        Municipal Regs. states: “A person operating a bicycle may overtake and
                        pass other vehicles on the left or right side, staying in the same
                        lane as the overtaken vehicle, or changing to a different lane, or
                        riding off the roadway, as necessary to pass with safety.”


                        This brochure is a good resource I recommend to those that are
                        interested. http://www.dc.gov/DC/DDOT/Publication%20Files/On%20Your%20Street/Bicycles%20and%20Pedestrians/Bicycles/Bicycle%20Laws/Pocket_Bike_Law_Guide.pdf


                        On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 4:04 PM, lancefromdc <salonial@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 'cept the fact that while drivers might not be following the rules 1 to 2% of the time ... that's probably the same percentage of cyclists who ARE following them. For example, tell me if you have EVER witnessed a cyclist waiting their turn (behind other traffic) at a 4 way stop sign ... Cyclists are bound by the SAME laws as other vehicles with very few exceptions. But by and large DC cyclists are not following these laws. A few expensive tickets could easily rectify this situation and preclude terrible incidents such as the accident referred to below.
                        >
                        > When bikes were rare on our streets, no one cared if cyclists were hard and fast in following the traffic laws. By and larger drivers and pedestrians made allowances for the special needs of bicyclists (i.e. the harsh reality that it's hard to start and stop on a bike). But now that the District has worked to encourage the non-recreational use of bikes and bikes are to be found everywhere and at all times, it's simply not possible for drivers to continue to extend these same courtesies anymore, and it's time for cyclists to either start playing by the public's rules or stop cycling on the public's roads.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I am not screaming bike rights at all. I completely agree with you that everyone needs to do a better job of following the rules.
                        > >
                        > > The original post took a tragic individual incident and went on to make some very broad generalizations from the point of view of a driver. My post did the same thing from the view of a cyclist. Both are wrong.
                        > >
                        > > The fact is that no one - drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists - does a good job of following the rules. But some are worse than most, and those individual encounters tend to form the basis of our broader perceptions from whatever point of view we take. The original post was as off base as my parody of it.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The reality is that both cyclists and motorists need to follow rules
                        > > > better. Screaming bike rights at this incident is ridiculous.
                        > > > On Mar 3, 2012 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > **
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of
                        > > > > automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is
                        > > > > presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and
                        > > > > pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand
                        > > > > that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed,
                        > > > > change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks,
                        > > > > cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop
                        > > > > signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations.
                        > > > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws
                        > > > > (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to
                        > > > > actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem
                        > > > > since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem
                        > > > > to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with
                        > > > > DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont
                        > > > > Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he
                        > > > > couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city
                        > > > > officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is
                        > > > > not a temporary parking lane.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I
                        > > > > can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police
                        > > > > would be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking, unsafe
                        > > > > drivers or that someone (DDOT?) would start a public awareness campaign to
                        > > > > urge drivers to learn the laws, obey them, and just use better judgment.
                        > > > > Twenty-nine people died in DC as a result of automobile crashes in 2009.
                        > > > > The consequences of unsafe driving are just too high.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Kat Miller <MillerKat@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > When I first heard about the Capital Bikeshare thing, it seemed like a
                        > > > > good idea. However, I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer
                        > > > > number of cycles in traffic are rising all the time, which in itself is
                        > > > > presenting a challenge to car drivers, but also the fact the most cyclist
                        > > > > do not seem to understand that they are obliged to follow the same rules as
                        > > > > cars. They ride between lanes, weave in an out without signaling, go
                        > > > > against the lights, go against one-way rules, turn from the wrong lanes.
                        > > > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a bike rider actually obeys such
                        > > > > laws.
                        > > > > > It seems that the red bikeshare bike riders seem to be somewhat more of
                        > > > > a problem since they hardly ever have helmets and seen to generally not be
                        > > > > as skilled cyclists as regular bike riders. I saw one Bikeshare rider just
                        > > > > this week who fell over at the cross road because he was not skilled at
                        > > > > staying on a bike while it was not in motion.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about hitting a cyclist when I can't
                        > > > > tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police would
                        > > > > be more aggressive and proactive at ticketing law-breaking cyclists or that
                        > > > > someone (Bikeshare?) would start a public awareness campaign to urge
                        > > > > cyclist to use better judgment and to obey the laws.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > http://dcist.com/2012/03/cyclist_remains_in_hospital_after_c.php
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > "Shawn Streiff, the cyclist who was hit by a truck while riding a
                        > > > > Capital Bikeshare bike near 11th and U Streets NW, remains in the hospital
                        > > > > after the Wednesday morning accident. He also faces three tickets in the
                        > > > > wake of the crash, one for running a red light and another for not wearing
                        > > > > a helmet."
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > A picture of Streiff from his Facebook page.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > "According to a police report of the accident, Streiff, a resident of
                        > > > > Sherman Avenue NW, was riding alongside a lumber truck as it traveled
                        > > > > southbound towards the intersection of 11th and U Streets NW, where the
                        > > > > light was red. At the intersection, the truck started moving forward on red
                        > > > > to make a right turn onto U Street. At the same time, Streiff reportedly
                        > > > > started moving alongside the truck, but with the intention of proceeding
                        > > > > straight down 11th Street. As the truck turned, Streiff was knocked down
                        > > > > and dragged under the truck for some 30 feet.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Though Streiff could not be interviewed at the scene by police due to
                        > > > > the extent of his injuries, police issued him tickets for running a red
                        > > > > light, failing to yield the right of way and failing to wear a helmet.
                        > > > > According to D.C. law, only children under the age of 16 are required to
                        > > > > wear helmets; Streiff is 29. (The driver was not cited at the scene.)"
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                      • Andrew Heitman
                        I don t think there is misinformation. The original article stated the helmet law. While waiting in line for a four way stop is not required of cyclists,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 3 2:52 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I don't think there is misinformation. The original article stated the helmet law.
                          While waiting in line for a four way stop is not required of cyclists, waiting their turn to others in e intersection is.

                          If you read the description of how the bike share rider was hit, he ran the red lug as a large truck was making a legal right on red turn.

                          As a cyclist, I cannot abide those who fail to follow the rules that keep us all safe.

                          On Saturday, March 3, 2012, A <washington20009@...> wrote:
                          > There are certainly cyclists who flout the rules, just like drivers.
                          >
                          > But there is also a lot of misinformation in this thread.
                          >
                          > As an example, even though the cyclist that was injured on U St. was
                          > cited for not wearing a helmet, there is no legal requirement that he
                          > had to have been wearing a helmet.  Just because the cyclist was
                          > ticketed does not mean he was at fault.  Indeed, there is a brochure
                          > put out by the city in cooperation with WABA that lists many common
                          > citation erors by police in bike/car incidents.  See
                          > http://www.dc.gov/DC/DDOT/On+Your+Street/Bicycles+and+Pedestrians/Bicycles/DC+Common+Enforcement+Errors+Involving+Bicyclists
                          >  for more information.
                          >
                          > I urge patience while the outcome of the investigation is still pending.
                          >
                          > As another example, Lance bemoans that cyclists don't wait in line at
                          > 4 way stops.  But, while bicyclists are certainly required to stop at
                          > signs, they are not required to take a position behind the last car in
                          > the queue and wait in line like cars are. Section 1201.3(b) of the DC
                          > Municipal Regs. states: “A person operating a bicycle may overtake and
                          > pass other vehicles on the left or right side, staying in the same
                          > lane as the overtaken vehicle, or changing to a different lane, or
                          > riding off the roadway, as necessary to pass with safety.”
                          >
                          >
                          > This brochure is a good resource I recommend to those that are
                          > interested.  http://www.dc.gov/DC/DDOT/Publication%20Files/On%20Your%20Street/Bicycles%20and%20Pedestrians/Bicycles/Bicycle%20Laws/Pocket_Bike_Law_Guide.pdf
                          >
                          >
                          > On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 4:04 PM, lancefromdc <salonial@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> 'cept the fact that while drivers might not be following the rules 1 to 2% of the time ... that's probably the same percentage of cyclists who ARE following them. For example, tell me if you have EVER witnessed a cyclist waiting their turn (behind other traffic) at a 4 way stop sign ... Cyclists are bound by the SAME laws as other vehicles with very few exceptions. But by and large DC cyclists are not following these laws. A few expensive tickets could easily rectify this situation and preclude terrible incidents such as the accident referred to below.
                          >>
                          >> When bikes were rare on our streets, no one cared if cyclists were hard and fast in following the traffic laws. By and larger drivers and pedestrians made allowances for the special needs of bicyclists (i.e. the harsh reality that it's hard to start and stop on a bike). But now that the District has worked to encourage the non-recreational use of bikes and bikes are to be found everywhere and at all times, it's simply not possible for drivers to continue to extend these same courtesies anymore, and it's time for cyclists to either start playing by the public's rules or stop cycling on the public's roads.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, "colinpeppard" <colinp@...> wrote:
                          >> >
                          >> > I am not screaming bike rights at all. I completely agree with you that everyone needs to do a better job of following the rules.
                          >> >
                          >> > The original post took a tragic individual incident and went on to make some very broad generalizations from the point of view of a driver. My post did the same thing from the view of a cyclist. Both are wrong.
                          >> >
                          >> > The fact is that no one - drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists - does a good job of following the rules. But some are worse than most, and those individual encounters tend to form the basis of our broader perceptions from whatever point of view we take. The original post was as off base as my parody of it.
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@> wrote:
                          >> > >
                          >> > > The reality is that both cyclists and motorists need to follow rules
                          >> > > better. Screaming bike rights at this incident is ridiculous.
                          >> > > On Mar 3, 2012 8:35 AM, "colinpeppard" <colinp@> wrote:
                          >> > >
                          >> > > > **
                          >> > > >
                          >> > > >
                          >> > > >
                          >> > > >
                          >> > > > I have been growing increasingly concerned as the sheer number of
                          >> > > > automobiles on the road is rising all the time, which in itself is
                          >> > > > presenting a challenge to other road users such as cyclists and
                          >> > > > pedestrians, but also the fact the most drivers do not seem to understand
                          >> > > > that they are obliged to follow the rules as everyone else. They speed,
                          >> > > > change lanes without signaling, fail to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks,
                          >> > > > cut off cyclists in bike lanes and in the flow of traffic, and turn at stop
                          >> > > > signs and red lights without stopping or signaling, among other violations.
                          >> > > > Unfortunately it is a rare occasion when a driver actually obeys such laws
                          >> > > > (though I am sure this is more because of confirmation bias than due to
                          >> > > > actual driver behavior - I notice the bad drivers, not the good ones).
                          >> > > >
                          >> > > > It seems that the non-DC drivers seem to be somewhat more of a problem
                          >> > > > since they seem unsure of how to share the road with other users, and seem
                          >> > > > to generally not be as skilled at driving on city streets as drivers with
                          >> > > > DC tags. I saw one Maryland driver just this week who went around Dupont
                          >> > > > Circle three times (a la Clark Griswold in European Vacation!) because he
                          >> > > > couldn't seem to figure out how to exit the traffic circle! And even city
                          >> > > > officials can't seem to figure out that the cycle track on 15th street is
                          >> > > > not a temporary parking lane.
                          >> > > >
                          >> > > > I am becoming increasingly nervous about being hit by a driver when I
                          >> > > > can't tell where they are or predict what they will do. I wish the police
                          >> > > > would ------------------------------------
                          >
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                        • Mitchell Polman
                          I’ve been biking in Washington since I arrived here in 1980. I am very tired of this endless debate and loathe to chime in here, but I feel it is necessary.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 4 2:13 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I’ve been biking in Washington since I arrived here in 1980.  I am very tired of this endless debate and loathe to chime in here, but I feel it is necessary.
                             
                            First of all, with respects to this specific incident.  I don’t think it appropriate for people to judge this cyclist when the poor guy is in no position to be responding.  I know that as a cyclist the one thing I dread the most (next to getting “doored”) is getting stuck alongside trucks.  Several times on the north side of Connecticut Avenue and Dupont Circle I have been pinned along side several trucks and have been unable to see until the last moment what the traffic light color is.  Something like that could have happened here.
                             
                            Secondly, it is all well and good to say that cyclists should obey the law, but the dirty secret is that everybody knows that a lot of the laws not only make little sense, but may actually contribute to the problem.  I break the law all the time by bicycling on the sidewalk down Meridian Hill because it seems safer to me than to get stuck in that heavy traffic without a bike lane while going downhill.  The sidewalk is never very crowded.  That is breaking the law, but to me it’s the sensible thing to do and it is better for me and for the motorists.  Likewise, I always stop at red lights, but if the coast is clear I go ahead because I feel by getting a headstart I am acting with greater safety than if I continue to ride alongside cars on a narrow street.  Our bike laws need to be reviewed and revised with an eye towards common sense.  I balk at the idea of the police “cracking down” on cyclists because I know all too well that the cops in this town will aim for low hanging fruit like me while leaving the young idiots who bike in the wrong direction against traffic alone because people like me are just a lot easier to catch.  There are a lot of dangerous cyclists in this city, but the city needs to be clear about what exactly constitutes “dangerous”.  To me it is a no brainer to ticket cyclists who fail to stop at red lights or who bike against traffic or who bike at a high speed through pedestrians on a sidewalk.  Other infractions though fall into a gray area and this needs to be acknowledged before there is any crackdown.
                             
                            Finally, some perspective is needed.  In my view the cyclists in this city act with a far greater degree of safety than they used to.  It used to be that cyclists in Washington were overwhelmingly hot shot couriers who cared little for their own safety let alone that of others.  Thankfully, they are a dying breed.  The people biking around this city now, like me, view bicycling as just another way to get around.  They are far more responsible than the old crowd.
                             
                            On the other hand, if you ask me the dangers cyclists face from motorists and pedestrians is far worse than it used to be not only for all the reasons mentioned, but because of cellphones (and, yes, cyclists should not bike and talk on phones at the same time).  Drivers on phones are too distracted to notice cyclists.  Pedestrians on phones cross the street without looking both ways.  As a cyclist I feel I can no longer assume that a driver will actually stop at a stop sign or a pedestrian will look for cars let alone bikes.  For some odd reason people in general seem to be jaywalking with a greater degree of frequency as well.  I don’t understand people who clearly see a cyclist coming and who have a “Don’t Walk” signal who step into the street anyways and risk getting hit.  All of this means that I have that much more that I need to be alert to while biking.
                             
                            Mitchell Polman
                          • Andrew Heitman
                            What dangers do cyclists face from pedestrians? ... tired of this endless debate and loathe to chime in here, but I feel it is necessary. ... appropriate for
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 4 8:31 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              What dangers do cyclists face from pedestrians?

                              On Sunday, March 4, 2012, Mitchell Polman <mpolman@...> wrote:
                              >  
                              >
                              > I’ve been biking in Washington since I arrived here in 1980.  I am very tired of this endless debate and loathe to chime in here, but I feel it is necessary.
                              >  
                              > First of all, with respects to this specific incident.  I don’t think it appropriate for people to judge this cyclist when the poor guy is in no position to be responding.  I know that as a cyclist the one thing I dread the most (next to getting “doored”) is getting stuck alongside trucks.  Several times on the north side of Connecticut Avenue and Dupont Circle I have been pinned along side several trucks and have been unable to see until the last moment what the traffic light color is.  Something like that could have happened here.
                              >  
                              > Secondly, it is all well and good to say that cyclists should obey the law, but the dirty secret is that everybody knows that a lot of the laws not only make little sense, but may actually contribute to the problem.  I break the law all the time by bicycling on the sidewalk down Meridian Hill because it seems safer to me than to get stuck in that heavy traffic without a bike lane while going downhill.  The sidewalk is never very crowded.  That is breaking the law, but to me it’s the sensible thing to do and it is better for me and for the motorists.  Likewise, I always stop at red lights, but if the coast is clear I go ahead because I feel by getting a headstart I am acting with greater safety than if I continue to ride alongside cars on a narrow street.  Our bike laws need to be reviewed and revised with an eye towards common sense.  I balk at the idea of the police “cracking down” on cyclists because I know all too well that the cops in this town will aim for low hanging fruit like me while leaving the young idiots who bike in the wrong direction against traffic alone because people like me are just a lot easier to catch.  There are a lot of dangerous cyclists in this city, but the city needs to be clear about what exactly constitutes “dangerous”.  To me it is a no brainer to ticket cyclists who fail to stop at red lights or who bike against traffic or who bike at a high speed through pedestrians on a sidewalk.  Other infractions though fall into a gray area and this needs to be acknowledged before there is any crackdown.
                              >  
                              > Finally, some perspective is needed.  In my view the cyclists in this city act with a far greater degree of safety than they used to.  It used to be that cyclists in Washington were overwhelmingly hot shot couriers who cared little for their own safety let alone that of others.  Thankfully, they are a dying breed.  The people biking around this city now, like me, view bicycling as just another way to get around.  They are far more responsible than the old crowd.
                              >  
                              > On the other hand, if you ask me the dangers cyclists face from motorists and pedestrians is far worse than it used to be not only for all the reasons mentioned, but because of cellphones (and, yes, cyclists should not bike and talk on phones at the same time).  Drivers on phones are too distracted to notice cyclists.  Pedestrians on phones cross the street without looking both ways.  As a cyclist I feel I can no longer assume that a driver will actually stop at a stop sign or a pedestrian will look for cars let alone bikes.  For some odd reason people in general seem to be jaywalking with a greater degree of frequency as well.  I don’t understand people who clearly see a cyclist coming and who have a “Don’t Walk” signal who step into the street anyways and risk getting hit.  All of this means that I have that much more that I need to be alert to while biking.
                              >  
                              > Mitchell Polman
                              >
                              >
                            • Ryan Bingham
                              We get in their way when they re blowing though red lights... ... We get in their way when they re blowing though red lights... On Mar 4, 2012 11:32 PM,
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 5 4:06 AM
                              • 0 Attachment

                                We get in their way when they're blowing though red lights...

                                On Mar 4, 2012 11:32 PM, "Andrew Heitman" <Aheitman@...> wrote:
                                 

                                What dangers do cyclists face from pedestrians?

                                On Sunday, March 4, 2012, Mitchell Polman <mpolman@...> wrote:
                                >  
                                >
                                > I’ve been biking in Washington since I arrived here in 1980.  I am very tired of this endless debate and loathe to chime in here, but I feel it is necessary.
                                >  
                                > First of all, with respects to this specific incident.  I don’t think it appropriate for people to judge this cyclist when the poor guy is in no position to be responding.  I know that as a cyclist the one thing I dread the most (next to getting “doored”) is getting stuck alongside trucks.  Several times on the north side of Connecticut Avenue and Dupont Circle I have been pinned along side several trucks and have been unable to see until the last moment what the traffic light color is.  Something like that could have happened here.
                                >  
                                > Secondly, it is all well and good to say that cyclists should obey the law, but the dirty secret is that everybody knows that a lot of the laws not only make little sense, but may actually contribute to the problem.  I break the law all the time by bicycling on the sidewalk down Meridian Hill because it seems safer to me than to get stuck in that heavy traffic without a bike lane while going downhill.  The sidewalk is never very crowded.  That is breaking the law, but to me it’s the sensible thing to do and it is better for me and for the motorists.  Likewise, I always stop at red lights, but if the coast is clear I go ahead because I feel by getting a headstart I am acting with greater safety than if I continue to ride alongside cars on a narrow street.  Our bike laws need to be reviewed and revised with an eye towards common sense.  I balk at the idea of the police “cracking down” on cyclists because I know all too well that the cops in this town will aim for low hanging fruit like me while leaving the young idiots who bike in the wrong direction against traffic alone because people like me are just a lot easier to catch.  There are a lot of dangerous cyclists in this city, but the city needs to be clear about what exactly constitutes “dangerous”.  To me it is a no brainer to ticket cyclists who fail to stop at red lights or who bike against traffic or who bike at a high speed through pedestrians on a sidewalk.  Other infractions though fall into a gray area and this needs to be acknowledged before there is any crackdown.
                                >  
                                > Finally, some perspective is needed.  In my view the cyclists in this city act with a far greater degree of safety than they used to.  It used to be that cyclists in Washington were overwhelmingly hot shot couriers who cared little for their own safety let alone that of others.  Thankfully, they are a dying breed.  The people biking around this city now, like me, view bicycling as just another way to get around.  They are far more responsible than the old crowd.
                                >  
                                > On the other hand, if you ask me the dangers cyclists face from motorists and pedestrians is far worse than it used to be not only for all the reasons mentioned, but because of cellphones (and, yes, cyclists should not bike and talk on phones at the same time).  Drivers on phones are too distracted to notice cyclists.  Pedestrians on phones cross the street without looking both ways.  As a cyclist I feel I can no longer assume that a driver will actually stop at a stop sign or a pedestrian will look for cars let alone bikes.  For some odd reason people in general seem to be jaywalking with a greater degree of frequency as well.  I don’t understand people who clearly see a cyclist coming and who have a “Don’t Walk” signal who step into the street anyways and risk getting hit.  All of this means that I have that much more that I need to be alert to while biking.
                                >  
                                > Mitchell Polman
                                >
                                >

                              • Mitchell Polman
                                A bicyclist and a pedestrian can both be seriously harmed if they collide with each other.
                                Message 15 of 25 , Mar 5 5:13 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  A bicyclist and a pedestrian can both be seriously harmed if they collide with each other.
                                • Andrew Heitman
                                  Yes, but the pedestrian is doing 20 MPH running stop signs? Thats how they are a danger to cyclists? By being there?
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Mar 5 5:29 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Yes, but the pedestrian is doing 20 MPH running stop signs? Thats how they are a danger to cyclists? By being there? 



                                    On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Mitchell Polman <mpolman@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    A bicyclist and a pedestrian can both be seriously harmed if they collide with each other.


                                  • dcblogs administrator
                                    The original poster of this thread made a good point about Bikeshare users who don t wear helmets. Many people who ride bikes in DC don t bother with helmets.
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Mar 5 6:48 AM
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                                      The original poster of this thread made a good point about Bikeshare users who don't wear helmets. Many people who ride bikes in DC don't bother with helmets. The Washington City Paper had a good piece about this before Bikeshare become commonplace: http://goo.gl/48vXT

                                      Aside from not wearing helmets, many bike at night with insufficient lighting or no lighting and/or no reflecting material.

                                      I don't think this is about the helmet vs. no-helmet-rights debate. Even if you refuse to wear a helmet, clipping on a flasher to a backpack and using reflective Velcro strips (City Bikes has them) to keep pants leg from getting greased may help keep a car from slamming you in the rear. ( The latter type of accident scares me because I knew a guy who was hit in the rear and is now confined to a wheelchair. I always use a rear mirror, either on the bike or the type that hooks on glasses).  

                                      That Bikeshare users don't use helmets is, apparently, a recognized issue according to this local NBC report http://goo.gl/ZJWjF (FYI: link will start video).

                                      Does Bikeshare have any data about its accident/injury rate? And can we use that data to see how it compares with the general population of bike riders? 

                                      And in regard to the overall bike-vs-car-vs-pedestrians discussion: IMHO, what we need is data and lots of it so we can really analyze what's going on and use it to push for a vigorous policy response.   

                                       



                                        


                                      On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Yes, but the pedestrian is doing 20 MPH running stop signs? Thats how they are a danger to cyclists? By being there? 




                                      On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Mitchell Polman <mpolman@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      A bicyclist and a pedestrian can both be seriously harmed if they collide with each other.



                                    • Kate
                                      Andrew, in what seems as nothing more than your desire to argue, you must have completely missed the thorough description that cyclists face in the final
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Mar 5 7:46 AM
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                                        Andrew, in what seems as nothing more than your desire to argue, you must have completely missed the thorough description that cyclists face in the final paragraph that Mitchell eloquently wrote. Pedestrians on cell phones are as clueless to what's going on around them as drivers are (in fact, often even more so). I have no desire to crash into a pedestrian, and so as a cyclist I must often abruptly weave away (and into traffic or another pedestrian or cyclist) to avoid collision, even when the pedestrian is jaywalking or crossing against a light.
                                        This whole "debate" sickens me, frankly. I see it pop up on the Cleveland Park listserve quite often as well (a very anti-bike community by the likes of what gets through the listserve moderators). I'm a frequent pedestrian, cyclist, and driver in this city. Because I wear all three hats regularly, I am acutely aware of the perils and frustrations that all three groups face. However, when I am a cyclist, I often fear for my life. People in giant cars pay NO attention to the fact that they share the road with many other forms of transport when they're driving in the city (and, I might add, the greatest offenders are MD and VA tags - rarely DC tags). People in cars often forget that they can KILL someone quite easily with their hunk of steel just because they feel entitled to the entire road space. I have had people honk at me and yell "Get out of the street" for no reason whatsoever (in fact, even while I'm within designated bike lanes). Drivers very rarely seem to understand that the road is shared, and rarely understand the mechanics of riding a bike in traffic (as Mitchell points out, it's better and safer to have some momentum so that you can keep moving forward, even if that means going through a red light when the coast is clear). What I witness on a daily basis is the indignant righteousness of drivers, which almost gives ME road rage when I am a cyclist (and pedestrian), though I am aware that it's not a battle worth fighting, as I could lose limb or life over it, and besides, it seems to make no effect on many drivers' lack of respect for sharing the road with bikes. It's an urban tragedy that often turns to a real life tragedy that can so easily be avoided if there was just greater awareness and acceptance of cyclists on the road.
                                        I consider myself a very safe cyclist, a very aware pedestrian, and in my mid-30s, I have never once received a moving violation as a driver (this includes time being employed as a school bus driver). I use the frustrations I feel while wearing each hat of pedestrian/cyclist/driver to improve my safety precautions. I only wish that others would do the same (put down the god damn cell phone while you're moving about in a city), and have a bit of compassion/respect for other forms of transport while you are in an urban environment. Get out of your little bubble and be aware that you share the world with many other people, and that your actions (especially as a driver), can have SERIOUS consequences. And, for the love of god, let your anger go. It's SO not worth it. Let's put that desire for change into productive things, like increasing bike lanes in the city and increasing awareness of bikers and rules of biking for all citizens. Let's face it: we'll never be Denmark or Germany when it comes to bike culture. But let's strive to be a safer, more accepting society, and let the petty rage go.

                                        --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > What dangers do cyclists face from pedestrians?
                                        >
                                      • Dan Williams
                                        Kate, You can t ask drivers in DC to not be assholes. It would ruin the charm that is DC driving.
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Mar 5 7:59 AM
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                                          Kate,
                                          You can't ask drivers in DC to not be assholes. It would ruin the charm that is DC driving.
                                        • Andrew Heitman
                                          its funny: I am not angry at all, and as a cyclist- I share the same concerns that Mitchell has expressed. However, I have found that with the advent of bike
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Mar 5 8:00 AM
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                                            its funny: I am not angry at all, and as a cyclist- I share the same concerns that Mitchell has expressed. However, I have found that with the advent of bike share (which is a great program) and the increase in cycle culture in this city, there has been blatant disregard for cycle safety BY cyclists. 

                                            I have lost a friend in an illegal cycle race in another city, and while we can all laugh off running red lights as trivial and bombing down sidewalks on pedestrians using their phone, we have to remember that the rights of way exist for reasons. This is not petty rage- this is people dying for stupid stupid reasons. 

                                            On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Kate <kateyaeger@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            Andrew, in what seems as nothing more than your desire to argue, you must have completely missed the thorough description that cyclists face in the final paragraph that Mitchell eloquently wrote. Pedestrians on cell phones are as clueless to what's going on around them as drivers are (in fact, often even more so). I have no desire to crash into a pedestrian, and so as a cyclist I must often abruptly weave away (and into traffic or another pedestrian or cyclist) to avoid collision, even when the pedestrian is jaywalking or crossing against a light.
                                            This whole "debate" sickens me, frankly. I see it pop up on the Cleveland Park listserve quite often as well (a very anti-bike community by the likes of what gets through the listserve moderators). I'm a frequent pedestrian, cyclist, and driver in this city. Because I wear all three hats regularly, I am acutely aware of the perils and frustrations that all three groups face. However, when I am a cyclist, I often fear for my life. People in giant cars pay NO attention to the fact that they share the road with many other forms of transport when they're driving in the city (and, I might add, the greatest offenders are MD and VA tags - rarely DC tags). People in cars often forget that they can KILL someone quite easily with their hunk of steel just because they feel entitled to the entire road space. I have had people honk at me and yell "Get out of the street" for no reason whatsoever (in fact, even while I'm within designated bike lanes). Drivers very rarely seem to understand that the road is shared, and rarely understand the mechanics of riding a bike in traffic (as Mitchell points out, it's better and safer to have some momentum so that you can keep moving forward, even if that means going through a red light when the coast is clear). What I witness on a daily basis is the indignant righteousness of drivers, which almost gives ME road rage when I am a cyclist (and pedestrian), though I am aware that it's not a battle worth fighting, as I could lose limb or life over it, and besides, it seems to make no effect on many drivers' lack of respect for sharing the road with bikes. It's an urban tragedy that often turns to a real life tragedy that can so easily be avoided if there was just greater awareness and acceptance of cyclists on the road.
                                            I consider myself a very safe cyclist, a very aware pedestrian, and in my mid-30s, I have never once received a moving violation as a driver (this includes time being employed as a school bus driver). I use the frustrations I feel while wearing each hat of pedestrian/cyclist/driver to improve my safety precautions. I only wish that others would do the same (put down the god damn cell phone while you're moving about in a city), and have a bit of compassion/respect for other forms of transport while you are in an urban environment. Get out of your little bubble and be aware that you share the world with many other people, and that your actions (especially as a driver), can have SERIOUS consequences. And, for the love of god, let your anger go. It's SO not worth it. Let's put that desire for change into productive things, like increasing bike lanes in the city and increasing awareness of bikers and rules of biking for all citizens. Let's face it: we'll never be Denmark or Germany when it comes to bike culture. But let's strive to be a safer, more accepting society, and let the petty rage go.



                                            --- In AdamsMorgan@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Heitman <Aheitman@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > What dangers do cyclists face from pedestrians?
                                            >


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