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Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Yellow food coloring

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  • hkubasch
    Thanks for the tip--saffron is indeed hugely cheaper at my Indian grocer. Heike Sent from AOL Mobile Mail ... From: lilinah To:
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 15, 2013
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      Thanks for the tip--saffron is indeed hugely cheaper at my Indian grocer.
      Heike

      Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


      -----Original Message-----
      From: lilinah <lilinah@...>
      To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity <AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Sep 14, 2013 08:57 PM
      Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Yellow food coloring


       

      Sannan the OneEyed wrote:

      > Saffron is the big one I remember reading in period references and receipts.
      > But there are also different kinds of saffrons from different regions of the
      > world.
      >
      > I tried one of our mediteranean delis and found a Georgian (Russian) saffron
      > that was about a fifth cheaper than the other saffron in the store from other
      > areas (which I bought as well, of course!) The only appreciable difference I
      > noticed was a slightly flat taste compared to the warmer amost nut lemony taste
      > of the other saffrons.
      >
      > The most expensive saffron I ever bought? The two little strands inm the
      > package in the schilling spice bottle.
      >
      > Sounds like a great project and much healthier than current food dye.

      Well, there are things that are sold as saffron that are not saffron at all. To be saffron it must be from Crocus sativus. For example, "Mexican saffron" is actually safflower petals. While it has an orange-yellow color, it completely lacks the distinctive aroma and flavor of true saffron. Color is absolutely not the only reason to use true saffron. So i would never assume that if it is labeled "saffron" that it is actually saffron.

      According to what i have been able to find Georgian saffron is called Imereti Saffron. It is not composed of the stigmas of the crocus, but is dried flower petals - according to a Georgian website, they are dried crushed marigolds. This explains why it was so much cheaper than real saffron.

      Urtatim (that's orr-tah-TEEM)

    • Andrea AskenDunn
      Anyway, it sounds like safflower is a better- as well as cheaper- choice for you than saffron or turmeric. It gives the color but not the smell. (I wonder, if
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 15, 2013
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        Anyway, it sounds like safflower is a better- as well as cheaper- choice for you than saffron or turmeric. It gives the color but not the smell. (I wonder, if marigold and goldenrod flowers would work, whether calendula petals would also. It seems like all of those would have been period [or is goldenrod a "new world" plant?] for this, easily accessible, and certainly not toxic when burned.) Good luck with this intriguing project!

        Asther de Perpinya


        On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 7:52 AM, <Miretar@...> wrote:
         

        I am not making edible candles. (Although tallow candles are technically edible.) Hugh Platt's Delights for Ladies has a recipe for tallow & beeswax candles. The core ore the candle is tallow and the exterior of the candle is beeswax. Platt recommends cooking the tallow with turmeric to give it a yellow color and to create the illusion that the candle is made entirely of turmeric.


        Since my persona is late 15th century turmeric is not available to her. However I feel strongly that coating a tallow candle with beeswax is something my persona would definitely have done. Elegant and thrifty at the same time. I was searching for a late fifteenth century coloring that would color the tallow yellow. I. Need to color the mutton tallow because it is white. My assumption was that if the coloring was food safe it would not give off poisonous fumes. 

        However you are correct; my assumption may well be erroneous. Period tallow candles also contained alum as a hardening agent which seems to be safe to burn. While I will be doing burn tests on these candles to see how the tallow/beeswax compares to pure beeswax, the finished candles will be for display only. I have extensive allergies; if I have a reaction to the candles I will let everyone know.

        Regards
        Heike



        Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Dianna <avacyn@...>
        To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity <AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sun, Sep 15, 2013 03:26 AM
        Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Yellow food coloring


         

        I'm still confused on why you are making edible candles. Not everything
        that is safe to eat is safe to burn. For candles, I'd be much more
        cautious about which herbs could be safely burned without causing hay fever.
        Dianna


        > Sannan the OneEyed wrote:
        >> Saffron is the big one I remember reading in period references and receipts.
        >> But there are also different kinds of saffrons from different regions of the
        >> world.
        >>
        >> I tried one of our mediteranean delis and found a Georgian (Russian) saffron
        >> that was about a fifth cheaper than the other saffron in the store from other
        >> areas (which I bought as well, of course!) The only appreciable difference I
        >> noticed was a slightly flat taste compared to the warmer amost nut lemony taste
        >> of the other saffrons.
        >>
        >> The most expensive saffron I ever bought? The two little strands inm the
        >> package in the schilling spice bottle.
        >>
        >> Sounds like a great project and much healthier than current food dye.
        > Well, there are things that are sold as saffron that are not saffron at all. To be saffron it must be from Crocus sativus. For example, "Mexican saffron" is actually safflower petals. While it has an orange-yellow color, it completely lacks the distinctive aroma and flavor of true saffron. Color is absolutely not the only reason to use true saffron. So i would never assume that if it is labeled "saffron" that it is actually saffron.
        >
        > According to what i have been able to find Georgian saffron is called Imereti Saffron. It is not composed of the stigmas of the crocus, but is dried flower petals - according to a Georgian website, they are dried crushed marigolds. This explains why it was so much cheaper than real saffron.
        >
        > Urtatim (that's orr-tah-TEEM)
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


      • Marilee Humason
        One of my apprentices did a dying project a few years ago, we did a study in yellow so we tried 8 different stuffs. calendula works but you need a lot of it to
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 15, 2013
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          One of my apprentices did a dying project a few years ago, we did a study in yellow so we tried 8 different stuffs. calendula works but you need a lot of it to get a decent color, safflower works real well, turmeric gets you more of a mustard yellow depending on the mordant, but for food, all of these are safe. Goldenrod not so much in our study, have to get all the petals off, and you need a ton of it to get anything.
          regards
           
          Baroness Anastasia Alexandrovna Andreeva (OL)
          Sister of the Golden Swan
          Order of the Illirium


          From: Andrea AskenDunn <askendunn@...>
          To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 5:03 AM
          Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Yellow food coloring

           
          Anyway, it sounds like safflower is a better- as well as cheaper- choice for you than saffron or turmeric. It gives the color but not the smell. (I wonder, if marigold and goldenrod flowers would work, whether calendula petals would also. It seems like all of those would have been period [or is goldenrod a "new world" plant?] for this, easily accessible, and certainly not toxic when burned.) Good luck with this intriguing project!

          Asther de Perpinya


          On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 7:52 AM, <Miretar@...> wrote:
           
          I am not making edible candles. (Although tallow candles are technically edible.) Hugh Platt's Delights for Ladies has a recipe for tallow & beeswax candles. The core ore the candle is tallow and the exterior of the candle is beeswax. Platt recommends cooking the tallow with turmeric to give it a yellow color and to create the illusion that the candle is made entirely of turmeric.

          Since my persona is late 15th century turmeric is not available to her. However I feel strongly that coating a tallow candle with beeswax is something my persona would definitely have done. Elegant and thrifty at the same time. I was searching for a late fifteenth century coloring that would color the tallow yellow. I. Need to color the mutton tallow because it is white. My assumption was that if the coloring was food safe it would not give off poisonous fumes. 

          However you are correct; my assumption may well be erroneous. Period tallow candles also contained alum as a hardening agent which seems to be safe to burn. While I will be doing burn tests on these candles to see how the tallow/beeswax compares to pure beeswax, the finished candles will be for display only. I have extensive allergies; if I have a reaction to the candles I will let everyone know.

          Regards
          Heike



          Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Dianna <avacyn@...>
          To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity <AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sun, Sep 15, 2013 03:26 AM
          Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Yellow food coloring


           
          I'm still confused on why you are making edible candles. Not everything
          that is safe to eat is safe to burn. For candles, I'd be much more
          cautious about which herbs could be safely burned without causing hay fever.
          Dianna

          > Sannan the OneEyed wrote:
          >> Saffron is the big one I remember reading in period references and receipts.
          >> But there are also different kinds of saffrons from different regions of the
          >> world.
          >>
          >> I tried one of our mediteranean delis and found a Georgian (Russian) saffron
          >> that was about a fifth cheaper than the other saffron in the store from other
          >> areas (which I bought as well, of course!) The only appreciable difference I
          >> noticed was a slightly flat taste compared to the warmer amost nut lemony taste
          >> of the other saffrons.
          >>
          >> The most expensive saffron I ever bought? The two little strands inm the
          >> package in the schilling spice bottle.
          >>
          >> Sounds like a great project and much healthier than current food dye.
          > Well, there are things that are sold as saffron that are not saffron at all. To be saffron it must be from Crocus sativus. For example, "Mexican saffron" is actually safflower petals. While it has an orange-yellow color, it completely lacks the distinctive aroma and flavor of true saffron. Color is absolutely not the only reason to use true saffron. So i would never assume that if it is labeled "saffron" that it is actually saffron.
          >
          > According to what i have been able to find Georgian saffron is called Imereti Saffron. It is not composed of the stigmas of the crocus, but is dried flower petals - according to a Georgian website, they are dried crushed marigolds. This explains why it was so much cheaper than real saffron.
          >
          > Urtatim (that's orr-tah-TEEM)
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >




        • lilinah-h
          ... One of the most common yellow dye plants in the Old World in SCA-period is weld, Reseda luteola. It produces a bright and fast yellow. The plant s native
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 15, 2013
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            Anastasia wrote:
            > One of my apprentices did a [dyeing] project a few years ago, we did a study in
            > yellow so we tried 8 different stuffs. Calendula works but you need a lot of it
            > to get a decent color, safflower works real well, turmeric gets you more of a
            > mustard yellow depending on the mordant, but for food, all of these are safe.
            > Goldenrod not so much in our study, have to get all the petals off, and you
            > need a ton of it to get anything.

            One of the most common yellow dye plants in the Old World in SCA-period is weld, Reseda luteola. It produces a bright and fast yellow. The plant's native range extends from the Canary Islands, through the Mediterranean, to India.

            On the other hand, from what i've been reading, the vast majority of goldenrod species are from the Americas, including the variety known as "dyers weed", and essentially out of period for the SCA. Dyeing with them may be possible, however, from my reading it appears that the few varieties native to southwest Asia were used primarily as medicinals. A few varieties are grown by British gardeners, but these were originally North American, not European natives. For the most part North American varieties are now invasive species in Europe and Asia, displacing native vegetation from its natural habitat.

            Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM)
          • hkubasch
            I would like to use calendula, but I couldn t find any documentation on it being used as a coloring agent in period. I realize safflower would probably work
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 16, 2013
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              I would like to use calendula, but I couldn't find any documentation on it being used as a coloring agent in period. I realize safflower would probably work best, but I am not sure that a late 15th cent. Viennese lady would have access to it, while I know she had access to calendula. I tend to associate safflower with Japan because of the lovely film "Only Yesterday" in which growing & harvesting safflower plays a major role.

              BTW I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone on the list for their helpful input.

              Heike

              Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


              -----Original Message-----
              From: lilinah <lilinah@...>
              To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity <AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Sep 16, 2013 05:47 AM
              Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Yellow food coloring


               

              Anastasia wrote:

              > One of my apprentices did a [dyeing] project a few years ago, we did a study in
              > yellow so we tried 8 different stuffs. Calendula works but you need a lot of it
              > to get a decent color, safflower works real well, turmeric gets you more of a
              > mustard yellow depending on the mordant, but for food, all of these are safe.
              > Goldenrod not so much in our study, have to get all the petals off, and you
              > need a ton of it to get anything.

              One of the most common yellow dye plants in the Old World in SCA-period is weld, Reseda luteola. It produces a bright and fast yellow. The plant's native range extends from the Canary Islands, through the Mediterranean, to India.

              On the other hand, from what i've been reading, the vast majority of goldenrod species are from the Americas, including the variety known as "dyers weed", and essentially out of period for the SCA. Dyeing with them may be possible, however, from my reading it appears that the few varieties native to southwest Asia were used primarily as medicinals. A few varieties are grown by British gardeners, but these were originally North American, not European natives. For the most part North American varieties are now invasive species in Europe and Asia, displacing native vegetation from its natural habitat.

              Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM)

            • Ségnat ingen Fháeláin
              Burning an herb, otherwise known as burning incense, is very unlikely to set off your allergies. I have friends who make kyphi-style bioregional incense
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 16, 2013
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                Burning an herb,  otherwise known as  burning incense,   is very unlikely to set off your allergies.  I have friends who make kyphi-style  bioregional incense from just about every combination of plant and resin out there and I’ve never heard of anyone having a problem with anything they burn.  I wouldn’t worry on it if I were you.

                The pollens  and spores which cause allergies are destroyed when they are burned.  In fact,  one of my mundane friend burns her prairie in the fall  to keep her hay fever under control because it incinerates the ragweed pollen.  

                I think the candles sound very interesting and you’ve had good suggestions, safflower, saffron, annatto.    Salvia officinalis tops make a yellow dye when you use alum as a mordant. 

                 I am, however,  wondering  why you wouldn’t have had access to turmeric in the 15th Century?

                It’s been used in India for at least 4000 years.  The oldest written documentation is a formula was by Susruta in 250 BC.  It was in  China by about 700  AD and West Africa by probably 1100 AD.   So it was pretty widely available by the 15th century.    Marco Polo wrote about it in 1280 AD, so obviously he was hauling it.    In fact,  there is a word Middle English turmeryte which has been around since the 15th century which leads me to believe that they had access to the herb.   

                I know that it isn’t in the cookbooks, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t being used.  It just means it wasn’t typical to see it used as an ingredient in food.   It is in the herbals.   Culpeper and Gerard both mention it.   

                 

                I have extensive allergies; if I have a reaction to the candles I will let everyone know.

                 

                Regards

                Heike

                 



                Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dianna <avacyn@...>
                To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity <AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sun, Sep 15, 2013 03:26 AM
                Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Yellow food coloring

                 

                I'm still confused on why you are making edible candles. Not everything
                that is safe to eat is safe to burn. For candles, I'd be much more
                cautious about which herbs could be safely burned without causing hay fever.
                Dianna

              • JO BURROWS
                Actually any airborne particulate (ie smoke, dust, etc.) can be a potential irritant, if there is a sensitivity. While not a true allergen (a protein that
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 16, 2013
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                  Actually any airborne particulate (ie smoke, dust, etc.) can be a potential irritant, if there is a sensitivity. While not a true allergen (a protein that triggers an IgE antibody reaction), can still generate similar effects (headaches, swelling, rashes, rhinitis, or coughing, for example), so be cautious in that respect.
                  cheers
                  Tanikh

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Ségnat ingen Fháeláin" <iron.age.celts@...>
                  To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 7:02:17 AM
                  Subject: RE: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Yellow food coloring









                  Burning an herb, otherwise known as burning incense, is very unlikely to set off your allergies. I have friends who make kyphi-style bioregional incense from just about every combination of plant and resin out there and I’ve never heard of anyone having a problem with anything they burn. I wouldn’t worry on it if I were you.

                  The pollens and spores which cause allergies are destroyed when they are burned. In fact, one of my mundane friend burns her prairie in the fall to keep her hay fever under control because it incinerates the ragweed pollen.

                  I think the candles sound very interesting and you’ve had good suggestions, safflower, saffron, annatto. Salvia officinalis tops make a yellow dye when you use alum as a mordant.

                  I am, however, wondering why you wouldn’t have had access to turmeric in the 15 th Century?

                  It’s been used in India for at least 4000 years. The oldest written documentation is a formula was by Susruta in 250 BC. It was in China by about 700 AD and West Africa by probably 1100 AD. So it was pretty widely available by the 15 th century. Marco Polo wrote about it in 1280 AD, so obviously he was hauling it. In fact, there is a word Middle English turmeryte which has been around since the 15 th century which leads me to believe that they had access to the herb.

                  I know that it isn’t in the cookbooks, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t being used. It just means it wasn’t typical to see it used as an ingredient in food. It is in the herbals. Culpeper and Gerard both mention it.







                  I have extensive allergies; if I have a reaction to the candles I will let everyone know.





                  Regards


                  Heike







                  Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dianna < avacyn@... >
                  To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity < AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com >
                  Sent: Sun, Sep 15, 2013 03:26 AM
                  Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Yellow food coloring










                  I'm still confused on why you are making edible candles. Not everything
                  that is safe to eat is safe to burn. For candles, I'd be much more
                  cautious about which herbs could be safely burned without causing hay fever.
                  Dianna
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