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Science?

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  • katherine kerr
    ... Can I throw a spanner in the works by stating that I don t think science is a period concept, not in the form in which is it generally regarded today.
    Message 1 of 9 , May 1, 2011
      > Verena:
      > As part of that, we currently have a survey on the website, so
      > others can express their opinions on what makes up an Art versus a
      > Science.

      Can I throw a spanner in the works by stating that I don't think science is a period concept, not in
      the form in which is it generally regarded today.

      People tend to point to astrology and alchemy as period sicence but if it's science, Jim, it's just not
      as we know it....

      Course it depends on your definition of "science". Natural philosophy is a period concept, sure, but
      can you think of any period examples where you have all the basic gold standards we consider
      required of science eg:

      * observation
      * experimentation
      * replication/verification by independent parties
      * explanatory schema involving hypotheses, causal mechanisms etc
      * predictive power, and tests thereof
      * falsifiability

      Such ideas are pretty modern -- hell, it's hard enough getting modernly educated people to
      understand why anecdotes do not equal data....

      I know we're never going to shift the SCA culture out of using A&S as shorthand for what we do --
      just as some people will fight for the term feastocrat in all its hideousness -- but I think the A&S
      distinction in our sphere is an artificial one which would not have been recognised by any natural
      philosopher or artisan in period.

      So why do we feel the need to make the distinction in the first case?
      Cheers,
      katherine




      =====================================
      katherine kerr of the Hermitage, in the Crescent Isles,
      Barony of Southron Gaard, Kingdom of Lochac
      mka Vicki Hyde, Webwright, wordsmith
      printing, maps, children: http://webcentre.co.nz/kk
      Barony of Southron Gaard: http://sg.lochac.sca.org
    • Johnna Holloway
      What about mathematics? For example consider the work of Nicolaus Copernicus. My husband who actually holds an advanced mathematics degree from Cambridge
      Message 2 of 9 , May 1, 2011
        What about mathematics?

        For example consider the work of Nicolaus Copernicus.

        My husband who actually holds an advanced mathematics degree from
        Cambridge University (from Newton's department) points out that the
        Chinese were certainly employing the scientific method in Asia long
        before it was formulated in the West. (In England it's often credited
        to Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626.)

        Johnnae


        On May 1, 2011, at 7:51 PM, katherine kerr wrote:

        > > Verena:
        > > As part of that, we currently have a survey on the website, so
        > > others can express their opinions on what makes up an Art versus a
        > > Science.
        >
        > Can I throw a spanner in the works by stating that I don't think
        > science is a period concept, not in
        > the form in which is it generally regarded today.
        >
        > People tend to point to astrology and alchemy as period sicence but
        > if it's science, Jim, it's just not
        > as we know it....
        >
        > Course it depends on your definition of "science". Natural
        > philosophy is a period concept, sure, but
        > can you think of any period examples where you have all the basic
        > gold standards we consider
        > required of science eg:
        >
        > * observation
        > * experimentation
        > * replication/verification by independent parties
        > * explanatory schema involving hypotheses, causal mechanisms etc
        > * predictive power, and tests thereof
        > * falsifiability
        >
        > Such ideas are pretty modern -- hell, it's hard enough getting
        > modernly educated people to
        > understand why anecdotes do not equal data....
        >
        > I know we're never going to shift the SCA culture out of using A&S
        > as shorthand for what we do --
        > just as some people will fight for the term feastocrat in all its
        > hideousness -- but I think the A&S
        > distinction in our sphere is an artificial one which would not have
        > been recognised by any natural
        > philosopher or artisan in period.
        >
        > So why do we feel the need to make the distinction in the first case?
        > Cheers,
        > katherine
        >
        > =====================================
        > katherine kerr of the Hermitage, in the Crescent Isles,
        > Barony of Southron Gaard, Kingdom of Lochac
        > mka Vicki Hyde, Webwright, wordsmith
        > printing, maps, children: http://webcentre.co.nz/kk
        > Barony of Southron Gaard: http://sg.lochac.sca.org
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Verena Entenwirt
        Can I throw a spanner in the works by stating that I don t think science is a period concept, not in the form in which is it generally regarded
        Message 3 of 9 , May 1, 2011
          <snip>Can I throw a spanner in the works by stating that I don't think
          science is a period concept, not in
          the form in which is it generally regarded today.<end snip>

          YES! Please throw spanners and hammers and anything else you would like in.
          I love your points, and can't wait to bring your points up to the panel.

          <snip>So why do we feel the need to make the distinction in the first case?
          </end snip>

          And that is actually one of the main questions of the discussion. However, I
          do believe there are certain Kingdoms that have different A&S awards and
          orders depending on whether it is an Art or a Science.

          Verena
          PS
          I am however looking for a few additional Art or Science Masters to take
          part in the discussion, especially from the more western kingdoms. If anyone
          knows anyone who would be interested- let me know off list.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Verena Entenwirt
          That is a great question! I will add it to the list. Thank you Verena
          Message 4 of 9 , May 1, 2011
            That is a great question! I will add it to the list. Thank you

            Verena

            On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Johnna Holloway <johnnae@...> wrote:
            > What about mathematics?
            >
          • Dianna
            I have no problem with SCA culture having its own culture. We aren t strictly a re-creational historical society. We don t recreate any particular period in
            Message 5 of 9 , May 1, 2011
              I have no problem with SCA culture having its own culture. We aren't
              strictly a re-creational historical society. We don't recreate any
              particular period in history at an event, but any history that is
              roughly European and pre-1600. And I say roughly: there are enough
              I-dream-of-Jeanie belly dancers running around at every event I've been
              too lately for us to make the claim we are even trying to to recreate
              anything specific. While its great that many of us, including me, have
              some field were we strive for authenticity, none of us strive for it in
              all facets. This is part of what makes the SCA - the SCA. Its unique
              and strange and wonderful even if it does have warts.

              I've felt for that reason that its been a huge mistake on our part to
              try to squelch our SCA culture but changing the language that's been
              around forever. You may not like feastocrat or troll or autocrat but
              they are part of our identity - part and parcel of what makes us who we
              are. The game is large and not all people playing it are playing it for
              the same reason. I'm of the opinion that people aught to be allowed to
              play who aren't playing for the same reasons I am. There's no reason to
              change a language that we all speak when the change doesn't improve
              anything - it just serves to annoy and cause strife. There's no
              advantage to communication in change at this point.

              As for A&S - its an artificial distinction and not directly applicable
              to much that was happening in the middle ages. And when traveling from
              one Kingdom to another I've noticed that not all Kingdoms agree at what
              makes an art and what makes a science. Yet, the distinctions are made
              and the game is played and we all seem to know what we are talking
              about. There is no definitive line on what constitutes an art (as
              opposed to a folk art vs. high art or household art vs. craft vs. skill
              vs. science) - its a continuum. I don't think we can encompass all we
              do and BE more specific with our language. Any constriction of language
              will necessarily cause a restriction of the activities are able to
              categorize. (If I've dyed wool and spun it and used the yarn to nalbound
              a hat, have I created an art project or a science project - certainly
              its a craft project but to craft these days has taken on a meaning of
              lesser not greater.)

              Anyway, that's my .02
              Lady Avacyn Gericsdocther
              >> as shorthand for what we do --
              >> just as some people will fight for the term feastocrat in all its
              >> hideousness -- but I think the A&S
              >> distinction in our sphere is an artificial one which would not have
              >> been recognised by any natural
              >> philosopher or artisan in period.
              >>
              >> So why do we feel the need to make the distinction in the first case?
              >> Cheers,
              >> katherine
              >>
              >>
              >

              --
              Books are not lumps of lifeless papers but, minds alive in conversation with you.
            • JO BURROWS
              Science is a period concept. There were seven: Math, Philosophy, Theology, Asronomy/Astrology, Rhetoric, and forgive me I have forgotten the last two... ...
              Message 6 of 9 , May 1, 2011
                Science is a period concept. There were seven: Math, Philosophy, Theology, Asronomy/Astrology, Rhetoric, and forgive me I have forgotten the last two...


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Verena Entenwirt <verena@...>
                Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011 5:44 pm
                Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Science?
                To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

                > <snip>Can I throw a spanner in the works by stating that I
                > don't think
                > science is a period concept, not in
                > the form in which is it generally regarded today.<end snip>
                >
                > YES! Please throw spanners and hammers and anything else you
                > would like in.
                > I love your points, and can't wait to bring your points up to
                > the panel.
                >
                > <snip>So why do we feel the need to make the distinction in
                > the first case?
                > </end snip>
                >
                > And that is actually one of the main questions of the
                > discussion. However, I
                > do believe there are certain Kingdoms that have different A&S
                > awards and
                > orders depending on whether it is an Art or a Science.
                >
                > Verena
                > PS
                > I am however looking for a few additional Art or Science Masters
                > to take
                > part in the discussion, especially from the more western
                > kingdoms. If anyone
                > knows anyone who would be interested- let me know off list.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Natasha
                May I add a bit of levity to the discussion? Cooking is an art, which is open to improvisation, while baking is a science where improv leads to disaster.
                Message 7 of 9 , May 2, 2011
                  May I add a bit of levity to the discussion? Cooking is an art, which is open to improvisation, while baking is a science where improv leads to disaster.

                  Natalija

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • JBurrows
                  Ohhh! I am soooo going to quote you! (If its okay with you!) I love that ;) cheers Tanikh ... From: Natasha To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 2, 2011
                    Ohhh! I am soooo going to quote you! (If its okay with you!) I love that ;)
                    cheers
                    Tanikh

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Natasha
                    To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:34 AM
                    Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Science?



                    May I add a bit of levity to the discussion? Cooking is an art, which is open to improvisation, while baking is a science where improv leads to disaster.

                    Natalija

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                  • Natasha
                    by all means use it. I m glad you liked it Natalija ... From: JBurrows To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:57 PM
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 2, 2011
                      by all means use it. I'm glad you liked it

                      Natalija
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: JBurrows
                      To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:57 PM
                      Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Science?



                      Ohhh! I am soooo going to quote you! (If its okay with you!) I love that ;)
                      cheers
                      Tanikh

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Natasha
                      To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:34 AM
                      Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Science?

                      May I add a bit of levity to the discussion? Cooking is an art, which is open to improvisation, while baking is a science where improv leads to disaster.

                      Natalija

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                      No virus found in this message.
                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 10.0.1325 / Virus Database: 1500/3610 - Release Date: 05/02/11

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 10.0.1325 / Virus Database: 1500/3611 - Release Date: 05/02/11


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