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Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation

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  • Verena Entenwirt
    Documentation doesn t have to be a formal, twenty-page, fully annotated, fully cited Great Paper of Note, you know. What judges are looking for is enough
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 4 6:40 AM
      <snip>Documentation doesn't have to be a formal, twenty-page, fully
      annotated,
      fully
      cited Great Paper of Note, you know. What judges are looking for is enough
      information
      that they know you know what's going on, and that's all:ens nip>

      On this I disagree.

      I like writing papers and class notes. Heck, I even made extra cash in
      college acting as a tutor, as well as editing people's papers. However at
      this last Middle Kingdom Regional Comp. all of my judges wanted a whole lot
      more then simple information about what is going on. I think this all
      depends on what region, what kingdom, what competition you are entering,
      and what judges you get.

      If you are entering the item in a populace choice, or a faire where you are
      not getting judged- then yes smaller is better and a postcard might work
      (though I would always do at minim 1 page). However, anytime you are sitting
      down with a judge, and they have the chance to read your documentation, you
      are going to want a whole lot more then just a postcard or a one page thing.


      For example, one judge wanted to know if I had tanned my own leather. Living
      in an apartment in Chicago, I had not. She then recommended that I add
      information about the tanning process to my documentation, and then cite
      that I chose a commercial leather. This would demonstrate that, even though
      I did not do it myself, I know how it would have been done in period.

      IF I can recommend any advice when it comes to writting documentation, it is
      to write your documentation first and then update it as you go long. I
      personally do all my research first, and then go through and make out my
      plan of action. I use my research and the documentation to make my choices
      on how I am going to do something. If I can't find an answer on how they did
      it in period, I do my own experiments (such as my recent natural leather dye
      experiment). I then do my projects- keeping pictorial journals during the
      entire process (examples can be seen here:
      https://picasaweb.google.com/Brynachndlr). After I upload my photos to my
      journal- I make small notes about what is in the picture while my memory is
      fresh.

      When my project is done, and I am ready to write my documentation- I already
      have the research, the basics, and the process all written thanks to my
      earlier work and pictorial journal. At this point, I just put it
      all-together and add my bibliography.

      I personally think it is easier to do it this way, as you are doing a little
      at a time, and does not make it such a daunting task. Also, it is much
      easier to do your documentation prior to the project, then it is to go back
      and try to justify what you did on a project.
      --
      Lady Verena Entenwirth
      www.broomstich.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Purple Kat
      This subject about documentation has hit a hot button of mine -- I have tried to stay out of it , but now feel I can not stay silent anymore. I once put out a
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 4 9:03 AM
        This subject about documentation has hit a hot button of mine --

        I have tried to stay out of it , but now feel I can not stay silent anymore.

        I once put out a pair of wool fingerless gloves.
        I gave very good documentation for a first entry. I said I had hand cleaned
        (told how), hand processed (told how), hand spun (drop spindle) and hand
        knit (wooden needles), the gloves.
        I stated that instead of using period wool I had used what was in my
        collection at the time.
        I did not dye the wool but used the 'natural black' color that the wool came
        in.

        Someone with a Laurel in textiles told me my documentation was invalid
        because I did not document that thay used wool in the middle ages. (WTF??!!)

        ** BUT **

        She also put out an entry (a linen dress) -- and some how FORGOT to document
        that LINEN was used in the middle ages, FORGOT to document WHERE the dress
        design came from, and FORGOT to mention anything about the trim or
        embroidery!!!

        My documentation totally filled a standard piece of 8 1/2" x 11" paper.
        HERS didn't even fill a 3 x 5 card - she must have assumed that her TITLE
        was good enough documentation.

        So all of this talk about proper documentation is (in my mind) a load of
        horse manure!!

        I have seen my share of A&S displays / competitions, and have seen
        documentation go from a 50 page binder all the way down to "I made it cause
        it looks nice"

        I will finish this by saying -- ask the person running the A&S what is the
        'standard' amount of documentation for the event / group.
        Cause if you come armed with a 50 page binder and you are given a 3x5 card
        to write it all down on...

        I will now get off my soapbox and go back to lurking

        Katheryne the Spinner

        ps - DO NOT ASK me about the one A&S at Pennsic that gave a 3rd place award
        to a piece of firewood!!! I was there! I saw the ribbon!!


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sorcha
        I might get flack for this, but I am going to add my comments as well.   Here in the West, when I first joined, entrants use to have to add their name to the
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 4 9:53 AM
          I might get flack for this, but I am going to add my comments as well.
           
          Here in the West, when I first joined, entrants use to have to add their name to the documentation; which, IMHO, was UNFAIR, especially for a new comer who wanted to enter, only to find that they were competing against experienced embroiders (AND Laurels).  The West has since gone to anonymous documentation.   One good thing is that in the West, we list our competitions (Principality & Kingdom levels) in the Page for the year.  This really helps some to “pick & choose” which competitions they want to enter.
           
          I just stepped down as Principality A&S Minister; but while in office, I started (with the suggestion from the "then" Highness') with competitions with NO documentation.  Not only did we start getting more entrants, but we also set new records for entries (example: 18 entries for 3 competitions).  We, as a Principality level A&S are hoping to get more people to enter competitions; to “prepare” them for Kingdom level A&S.
           
          Now that I have stepped down, I am working with the new Principality A&S Minister to hold more classes at shire level events; to draw in more new comers, and those who do not like documentation or know how to prepare one correctly.  Our shires are holding more and more classes at their local events; not just advanced classes, but for beginners as well.
           
          I am one of many who hold embroidery classes at my home.  I not only teach stitching techniques, but answer questions on documentation and other questions as well.
           
          >>
          Katheryne the Spinner

          ps - DO NOT ASK me about the one A&S at Pennsic that gave a 3rd place award to a piece of firewood!!! I was there! I saw the ribbon!!
          >>
           
          Sorry, but this made me giggle a bit.  There is a competition (Principality level – NO documentation) coming up, “Pillows, any period” and I had a cute idea (at least I think it is).  I am going to enter some straw/hay (peasants did not use linen/wool for pillows, or expensive embroidery).  Now, do not get me wrong here, 1) I do NOT expect to win, 2) I am doing this for FUN (yes, competitions should be fun as well) and 3) I am doing this to help out with entries for the competition.  (I am hoping to have two other embroidered pillows to enter as well.)
           
          Sorcha
           

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • JBurrows
          As both an entrant and a judge, I understand the frustration sometimes felt, on both sides. I have been judged by awesome competent judges, and trashed by
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 4 11:33 AM
            As both an entrant and a judge, I understand the frustration sometimes felt, on both sides. I have been judged by awesome competent judges, and trashed by those unskilled (or dare I say on a self-aggrandising ego trip?) and there was a particular incident way back when I was less sure of myself when I did not enter for a long time after that.
            However, I think those inconsistent experiences are what inspired me to want to be a judge, and I made appoint of shadowing those I respected and tried to be a judge on their model. I have still run across entrants who have invested emotionally in a project that was, frankly inappropriate for the competition entered. I still tried to help them understand what would have helped their presentation, and look for the positive aspects of their work to give them something to go on.
            Again judges must remember what level they are judging at, and follow the criteria expressed in the judging forms, and competitors must accept that their work will be evaluated in that format.
            If you feel you have been judged unfairly, speak to the judge (or to the organiser of the competition if that does not work for you) This is not a suggestion for an opportunity to rant, but open a dialogue between you and that judge (or competitor) to further an understanding - learn to be a better competitor, and learn to be a better judge.
            And yes, if it is an area you are passionate about, you probably do know more than the judge - so you must think of it as an opportunity to educate them ;)
            cheers
            Tanikh


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Purple Kat
            To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 9:03 AM
            Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation



            This subject about documentation has hit a hot button of mine --

            I have tried to stay out of it , but now feel I can not stay silent anymore.

            I once put out a pair of wool fingerless gloves.
            I gave very good documentation for a first entry. I said I had hand cleaned
            (told how), hand processed (told how), hand spun (drop spindle) and hand
            knit (wooden needles), the gloves.
            I stated that instead of using period wool I had used what was in my
            collection at the time.
            I did not dye the wool but used the 'natural black' color that the wool came
            in.

            Someone with a Laurel in textiles told me my documentation was invalid
            because I did not document that thay used wool in the middle ages. (WTF??!!)

            ** BUT **

            She also put out an entry (a linen dress) -- and some how FORGOT to document
            that LINEN was used in the middle ages, FORGOT to document WHERE the dress
            design came from, and FORGOT to mention anything about the trim or
            embroidery!!!

            My documentation totally filled a standard piece of 8 1/2" x 11" paper.
            HERS didn't even fill a 3 x 5 card - she must have assumed that her TITLE
            was good enough documentation.

            So all of this talk about proper documentation is (in my mind) a load of
            horse manure!!

            I have seen my share of A&S displays / competitions, and have seen
            documentation go from a 50 page binder all the way down to "I made it cause
            it looks nice"

            I will finish this by saying -- ask the person running the A&S what is the
            'standard' amount of documentation for the event / group.
            Cause if you come armed with a 50 page binder and you are given a 3x5 card
            to write it all down on...

            I will now get off my soapbox and go back to lurking

            Katheryne the Spinner

            ps - DO NOT ASK me about the one A&S at Pennsic that gave a 3rd place award
            to a piece of firewood!!! I was there! I saw the ribbon!!

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Carrot Khan
            ... It almost sounds like the judges need to get together and found a Guild to set standard format of documentation across the kingdom/Society and to train
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 4 11:38 AM
              On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 1:33 PM, JBurrows <joburrows@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > As both an entrant and a judge, I understand the frustration sometimes
              > felt, on both sides. I have been judged by awesome competent judges, and
              > trashed by those unskilled (or dare I say on a self-aggrandising ego trip?)
              > and there was a particular incident way back when I was less sure of myself
              > when I did not enter for a long time after that.
              > However, I think those inconsistent experiences are what inspired me to
              > want to be a judge, and I made appoint of shadowing those I respected and
              > tried to be a judge on their model. I have still run across entrants who
              > have invested emotionally in a project that was, frankly inappropriate for
              > the competition entered. I still tried to help them understand what would
              > have helped their presentation, and look for the positive aspects of their
              > work to give them something to go on.
              > Again judges must remember what level they are judging at, and follow the
              > criteria expressed in the judging forms, and competitors must accept that
              > their work will be evaluated in that format.
              > If you feel you have been judged unfairly, speak to the judge (or to the
              > organiser of the competition if that does not work for you) This is not a
              > suggestion for an opportunity to rant, but open a dialogue between you and
              > that judge (or competitor) to further an understanding - learn to be a
              > better competitor, and learn to be a better judge.
              > And yes, if it is an area you are passionate about, you probably do know
              > more than the judge - so you must think of it as an opportunity to educate
              > them ;)
              > cheers
              > Tanikh
              >
              >

              It almost sounds like the judges need to get together and found a Guild to
              set standard format of documentation across the kingdom/Society and to train
              apprentice judges.

              ....I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.

              Jadwiga


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mike Wilson
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 4 11:41 AM
                < It almost sounds like the judges need to get together and found a Guild
                to

                set standard format of documentation across the kingdom/Society and to
                train

                apprentice judges.



                ....I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.



                Jadwiga >

                I've often wondered myself ... I could support that!
                I knew this subject, well-presented on both sides, would raise a lot of comments, and as you say, Ercc, opinions!

                Warm regards,
                Archer

                To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                From: carrot.khan@...
                Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:38:40 -0500
                Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation




























                On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 1:33 PM, JBurrows <joburrows@...> wrote:



                >

                >

                > As both an entrant and a judge, I understand the frustration sometimes

                > felt, on both sides. I have been judged by awesome competent judges, and

                >



                It almost sounds like the judges need to get together and found a Guild to

                set standard format of documentation across the kingdom/Society and to train

                apprentice judges.



                ....I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.



                Jadwiga



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JBurrows
                we have a tradition, at least in An Tir, of apprentice judging - they fill out all the forms, score them, and make comments just as though they were judging,
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 4 11:58 AM
                  we have a tradition, at least in An Tir, of apprentice judging - they fill
                  out all the forms, score them, and make comments just as though they were
                  judging, then afterward compare them to the forms of the actual judges. I
                  think it doesn't hurt for experienced judges to do these comparisons once in
                  a while to see how they hold up too ;) (the few times I have done this, with
                  little exception, the scoring has been pretty close between judges)
                  cheers
                  Tanikh

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Mike Wilson" <kitearcher@...>
                  To: <aands50challengecommunity@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 11:41 AM
                  Subject: RE: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation


                  >
                  > < It almost sounds like the judges need to get together and found a Guild
                  > to
                  >
                  > set standard format of documentation across the kingdom/Society and to
                  > train
                  >
                  > apprentice judges.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ....I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jadwiga >
                  >
                  > I've often wondered myself ... I could support that!
                  > I knew this subject, well-presented on both sides, would raise a lot of
                  > comments, and as you say, Ercc, opinions!
                  >
                  > Warm regards,
                  > Archer
                  >
                  > To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: carrot.khan@...
                  > Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:38:40 -0500
                  > Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation
                  >
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                  > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 1:33 PM, JBurrows <joburrows@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> As both an entrant and a judge, I understand the frustration sometimes
                  >
                  >> felt, on both sides. I have been judged by awesome competent judges, and
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > It almost sounds like the judges need to get together and found a Guild to
                  >
                  > set standard format of documentation across the kingdom/Society and to
                  > train
                  >
                  > apprentice judges.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ....I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jadwiga
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----
                  > No virus found in this message.
                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3549 - Release Date: 04/04/11
                  >
                • Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
                  I love team judging. Judges can have honest conversations with each other and point out the way things could be emphasized or better said so that later the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 4 12:54 PM
                    I love team judging. Judges can have honest conversations with each
                    other and point out the way things could be emphasized or better said so
                    that later the judges and entrants get on the same page comfortably.

                    For the folks that let one bad experience color their perspective on
                    A&S, I'm sorry. In anything we do there will be good days and bad days.
                    I hope you can move forward with that as a learning experience and try
                    again with a different perspective.

                    Sayyeda al-Kaslaania

                    On 4/4/2011 1:58 PM, JBurrows wrote:
                    > we have a tradition, at least in An Tir, of apprentice judging - they fill
                    > out all the forms, score them, and make comments just as though they were
                    > judging, then afterward compare them to the forms of the actual judges. I
                    > think it doesn't hurt for experienced judges to do these comparisons once in
                    > a while to see how they hold up too ;) (the few times I have done this, with
                    > little exception, the scoring has been pretty close between judges)
                    > cheers
                    > Tanikh
                  • Purple Kat
                    Jadwiga, This almost sounds like a conversation that was at your Laureling Vigil (or was it after the laurel?) A lot of us (mostly the metalsmith guild) - were
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 4 12:55 PM
                      Jadwiga,

                      This almost sounds like a conversation that was at your Laureling Vigil (or
                      was it after the laurel?)

                      A lot of us (mostly the metalsmith guild) - were discussing the inequality
                      in judging of items, on how a judge didn't (or wouldn't) judge an item on
                      the item's merits...

                      ie - one item was discounted because it was 'in the style of' and not
                      completely period,
                      Another item had been dismissed because it was an exact replica of a plate -
                      this one "didn't show originallity"
                      I complained about my "didn't prove wool is period"
                      Another competition was rigged to let an Apprentice win (she needed 1 more
                      win to get her laurel) - her entry was soo bad and out of period that people
                      thought the 3x5 cards had been mixed up with a person who was at their 1st
                      event!!

                      I applaud a Judging Guild!!
                      This way a textile person will not have to judge cooking, or a leatherworker
                      judge embroidery completely cold and off the cuff.

                      Katheryne the Spinner




                      > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 1:33 PM, JBurrows <joburrows@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > It almost sounds like the judges need to get together and found a Guild to
                      > set standard format of documentation across the kingdom/Society and to
                      > train
                      > apprentice judges.
                      >
                      > ....I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.
                      >
                      > Jadwiga
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Euriol of Lothian
                      Just the perception this to be the case is offensive.     Euriol From: Purple Kat To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 4 1:10 PM
                        Just the perception this to be the case is offensive.
                         
                         
                        Euriol

                        From: Purple Kat <purplkat597@...>
                        To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, April 4, 2011 3:55 PM
                        Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation

                        Another competition was rigged to let an Apprentice win (she needed 1 more
                        win to get her laurel) - her entry was soo bad and out of period that people
                        thought the 3x5 cards had been mixed up with a person who was at their 1st
                        event!!

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Mike Wilson
                        Animal Farm applies.... To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com From: euriol@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:10:33 -0700 Subject: Re:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 4 1:15 PM
                          Animal Farm applies....

                          To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                          From: euriol@...
                          Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:10:33 -0700
                          Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation




























                          Just the perception this to be the case is offensive.





                          Euriol



                          From: Purple Kat <purplkat597@...>

                          To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

                          Sent: Monday, April 4, 2011 3:55 PM

                          Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation



                          Another competition was rigged to let an Apprentice win (she needed 1 more

                          win to get her laurel) - her entry was soo bad and out of period that people

                          thought the 3x5 cards had been mixed up with a person who was at their 1st

                          event!!



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
                          I m sorry, this doesn t make sense to me. There is no score sheet for obtaining a Laurel, and no one is required to participate in A&S to become a Laurel in
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 4 1:25 PM
                            I'm sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. There is no "score sheet" for
                            obtaining a Laurel, and no one is required to participate in A&S to
                            become a Laurel in the SCA. This recognition is given solely at the
                            discretion of the King and Queen in consultation with the people who
                            have already obtained a Laurel. It's my understanding that the most
                            subjective part about the process is determining if the person has
                            "peer-like qualities", in other words, will represent the SCA in a fair
                            and honorable way.

                            Sayyeda al-Kaslaania


                            On 4/4/2011:
                            > Just the perception this to be the case is offensive.
                            >
                            >
                            > Euriol
                            >
                            > From: Purple Kat<purplkat597@...>
                            > To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, April 4, 2011 3:55 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation
                            >
                            > Another competition was rigged to let an Apprentice win (she needed 1 more
                            > win to get her laurel) - her entry was soo bad and out of period that people
                            > thought the 3x5 cards had been mixed up with a person who was at their 1st
                            > event!!
                          • Christine Taylor
                            Uh -- what kingdom is this? needed 1 more win to get her laurel -- what? Caitlin Caitlin Christiana Wintour, OL Ad augusta per angusta (To high places by
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 4 1:35 PM
                              Uh -- what kingdom is this? "needed 1 more win to get her laurel" -- what?

                              Caitlin

                              Caitlin Christiana Wintour, OL
                              Ad augusta per angusta (To high places by narrow roads)



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Purple Kat
                              Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 12:55 PM
                              To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation

                              Another competition was rigged to let an Apprentice win (she needed 1 more
                              win to get her laurel) - her entry was soo bad and out of period that people
                              thought the 3x5 cards had been mixed up with a person who was at their 1st
                              event!!

                              Katheryne the Spinner
                            • Christine Taylor
                              No kidding. What in the world?! Caitlin Caitlin Christiana Wintour, OL Ad augusta per angusta (To high places by narrow roads) ... From:
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 4 1:36 PM
                                No kidding. What in the world?!

                                Caitlin

                                Caitlin Christiana Wintour, OL
                                Ad augusta per angusta (To high places by narrow roads)




                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Euriol of
                                Lothian
                                Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 1:11 PM
                                To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation

                                Just the perception this to be the case is offensive.
                                 
                                 
                                Euriol

                                From: Purple Kat <purplkat597@...>
                                To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, April 4, 2011 3:55 PM
                                Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation

                                Another competition was rigged to let an Apprentice win (she needed 1 more
                                win to get her laurel) - her entry was soo bad and out of period that people
                                thought the 3x5 cards had been mixed up with a person who was at their 1st
                                event!!

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • Christine Taylor
                                Precisely. I d really like to hear Katheryne the Spinner s answer on this. Caitlin Caitlin Christiana Wintour, OL Ad augusta per angusta (To high places by
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 4 1:37 PM
                                  Precisely. I'd really like to hear Katheryne the Spinner's answer on this.

                                  Caitlin

                                  Caitlin Christiana Wintour, OL
                                  Ad augusta per angusta (To high places by narrow roads)


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sayyeda
                                  al-Kaslaania
                                  Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 1:26 PM
                                  To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                  Cc: Euriol of Lothian; purplkat597@...
                                  Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation

                                  I'm sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. There is no "score sheet" for
                                  obtaining a Laurel, and no one is required to participate in A&S to
                                  become a Laurel in the SCA. This recognition is given solely at the
                                  discretion of the King and Queen in consultation with the people who
                                  have already obtained a Laurel. It's my understanding that the most
                                  subjective part about the process is determining if the person has
                                  "peer-like qualities", in other words, will represent the SCA in a fair
                                  and honorable way.

                                  Sayyeda al-Kaslaania


                                  On 4/4/2011:
                                  > Just the perception this to be the case is offensive.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Euriol
                                  >
                                  > From: Purple Kat<purplkat597@...>
                                  > To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, April 4, 2011 3:55 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation
                                  >
                                  > Another competition was rigged to let an Apprentice win (she needed 1 more
                                  > win to get her laurel) - her entry was soo bad and out of period that
                                  people
                                  > thought the 3x5 cards had been mixed up with a person who was at their 1st
                                  > event!!


                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Mike Wilson
                                  Folks, My response was flip and I hope I did not aggravate anyone more than the subject. Please accept my apologies. Archer To:
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 4 1:39 PM
                                    Folks,
                                    My response was flip and I hope I did not aggravate anyone more than the subject.
                                    Please accept my apologies.
                                    Archer


                                    To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: chrislynnet@...
                                    Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:36:12 -0700
                                    Subject: RE: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation




























                                    No kidding. What in the world?!



                                    Caitlin



                                    Caitlin Christiana Wintour, OL

                                    Ad augusta per angusta (To high places by narrow roads)



                                    -----Original Message-----

                                    From: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

                                    [mailto:AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Euriol of

                                    Lothian

                                    Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 1:11 PM

                                    To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

                                    Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation



                                    Just the perception this to be the case is offensive.





                                    Euriol



                                    From: Purple Kat <purplkat597@...>

                                    To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

                                    Sent: Monday, April 4, 2011 3:55 PM

                                    Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation



                                    Another competition was rigged to let an Apprentice win (she needed 1 more

                                    win to get her laurel) - her entry was soo bad and out of period that people

                                    thought the 3x5 cards had been mixed up with a person who was at their 1st

                                    event!!



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    ------------------------------------



                                    Yahoo! Groups Links


















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Carrot Khan
                                    ... Katheryne, I fear you ve mixed me up with another Jadwiga. I am Jadwiga of the tapestry and most certainly not a Laurel! I suppose I should remember how
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 4 1:47 PM
                                      On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Purple Kat <purplkat597@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Jadwiga,
                                      >
                                      > This almost sounds like a conversation that was at your Laureling Vigil (or
                                      > was it after the laurel?)
                                      >

                                      Katheryne,

                                      I fear you've mixed me up with another Jadwiga. I am Jadwiga of the
                                      tapestry and most certainly not a Laurel! I suppose I should remember how
                                      wide a community this is and get a better signature

                                      Jadwiga Wlodzislawska
                                      (aka - Jadwiga Vladescu)


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Dianna
                                      I do know that some of the Laurels I ve talked to over the years have criteria for their apprentices to meet before they will recommend such person for a
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Apr 4 1:55 PM
                                        I do know that some of the Laurels I've talked to over the years have
                                        criteria for their apprentices to meet before they will recommend such
                                        person for a Laurel themselves. Essentially this has boiled to a
                                        checklist approach (Teach X many classes, enter and win X many A&S
                                        contests, attend X many Kingdom level events and so on). I'm not sure I
                                        agree with the thinking behind this sort of thing and I know that the
                                        Laurels who I've personally admired for their "Wow" factor don't do
                                        this. I think it might have to do with particular individuals trying to
                                        quantify the mysterious process of becoming a Laurel for their
                                        individual apprentices. I don't know anywhere in the Known World where
                                        this is the way its usually done.

                                        So I could maybe believe that the situation described happened, I don't
                                        see it as having done anyone, including the entrant who won, any good.
                                        Avacyn

                                        On 4/4/2011 1:25 PM, Sayyeda al-Kaslaania wrote:
                                        > I'm sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. There is no "score sheet" for
                                        > obtaining a Laurel, and no one is required to participate in A&S to
                                        > become a Laurel in the SCA. This recognition is given solely at the
                                        > discretion of the King and Queen in consultation with the people who
                                        > have already obtained a Laurel. It's my understanding that the most
                                        > subjective part about the process is determining if the person has
                                        > "peer-like qualities", in other words, will represent the SCA in a fair
                                        > and honorable way.
                                        >
                                        > Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 4/4/2011:
                                        >> Just the perception this to be the case is offensive.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> Euriol
                                        >>
                                        >> From: Purple Kat<purplkat597@...>
                                        >> To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                        >> Sent: Monday, April 4, 2011 3:55 PM
                                        >> Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation
                                        >>
                                        >> Another competition was rigged to let an Apprentice win (she needed 1 more
                                        >> win to get her laurel) - her entry was soo bad and out of period that people
                                        >> thought the 3x5 cards had been mixed up with a person who was at their 1st
                                        >> event!!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        --
                                        Books are not lumps of lifeless papers but, minds alive in conversation
                                        with you.
                                      • Purple Kat
                                        I don t know most of the story - But, I was working in the kitchen one event and 2 Laurels were hiding out there and were discussing the competition. One of
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Apr 4 2:24 PM
                                          I don't know most of the story -
                                          But, I was working in the kitchen one event and 2 Laurels were 'hiding out'
                                          there and were discussing the competition.
                                          One of the Ladies said how someone's apprentice "needed one more win to get
                                          her Laurel".
                                          And the other Laurel stated that another entry was technically better - and
                                          the first said "Yes, but that person isn't an apprentice to anyone - it
                                          won't matter if they lose"
                                          The conversation then went on to how they were going to make sure the
                                          apprentice "won" the competition.
                                          I was in extreme shock (to say the least ) to hear 2 peers talk about fixing
                                          a competition, and the fact that "peer like qualities" weren't the way to
                                          get your Laurel!

                                          I later asked who won the A&S and was told it was an apprentice and that
                                          that particular entry wasn't well done, nor well made, nor even
                                          well documented - and everyone was surprised (except the apprentice who won
                                          ) that her entry won.
                                          Among my friends who are Laurels & Pelicans I was given the impression that
                                          this particular lady got her peerage faaarrrr too fast and toooo quick, and
                                          she didn't REALLY have the qualifications. But - they all said - seeing who
                                          her Peer was it was understandable.

                                          Katheryne the Spinner
                                          who removed the group's & event's name to protect those who are truely
                                          innocent

                                          On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Christine Taylor <chrislynnet@...>wrote:

                                          > Precisely. I'd really like to hear Katheryne the Spinner's answer on
                                          > this.
                                          > Caitlin
                                          >
                                          > Caitlin Christiana Wintour, OL
                                          > Ad augusta per angusta (To high places by narrow roads)
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          >
                                          > I'm sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. There is no "score sheet" for
                                          > obtaining a Laurel, and no one is required to participate in A&S to
                                          > become a Laurel in the SCA. This recognition is given solely at the
                                          > discretion of the King and Queen in consultation with the people who
                                          > have already obtained a Laurel. It's my understanding that the most
                                          > subjective part about the process is determining if the person has
                                          > "peer-like qualities", in other words, will represent the SCA in a fair
                                          > and honorable way.
                                          >
                                          > Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Euriol of Lothian
                                          With the students I have taken on, they know before we formalize the relationship (either as a protoge or apprentice) that I will not recommend them for an
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Apr 4 2:27 PM
                                            With the students I have taken on, they know before we formalize the relationship (either as a protoge or apprentice) that I will not recommend them for an award.
                                            That someone other than me needs to see the things they are doing.
                                             
                                            This doesn't mean I won't speak on their behalf, but it allows us to have the conversations that need to happen without any expectation of an award as a result. They reward themselves by doing well with their own efforts.
                                             
                                            This, of course, is my own personal approach and works for me and my students. I also believe that each of my students is on their own personal journey and it is my job to guide them and encourage them and show them the possibilities that I see. But the path they take is their own.

                                            Euriol

                                            From: Dianna <avacyn@...>
                                            To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, April 4, 2011 4:55 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation

                                            I do know that some of the Laurels I've talked to over the years have
                                            criteria for their apprentices to meet before they will recommend such
                                            person for a Laurel themselves.  Essentially this has boiled to a
                                            checklist approach (Teach X many classes, enter and win X many A&S
                                            contests, attend X many Kingdom level events and so on).  I'm not sure I
                                            agree with the thinking behind this sort of thing and I know that the
                                            Laurels who I've personally admired for their "Wow" factor don't do
                                            this. I think it might have to do with particular individuals trying to
                                            quantify the mysterious process of becoming a Laurel for their
                                            individual apprentices. I don't know anywhere in the Known World where
                                            this is the way its usually done.

                                            So I could maybe believe that the situation described happened, I don't
                                            see it as having done anyone, including the entrant who won, any good.
                                            Avacyn

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Christine Taylor
                                            Thank you for explaining that you actually heard this conversation. Wow. Laurels have been known to strategize when they want someone to be recognized, but
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Apr 4 2:32 PM
                                              Thank you for explaining that you actually heard this conversation. Wow.
                                              Laurels have been known to strategize when they want someone to be
                                              recognized, but this is entirely out of bounds. I'm truly sorry that you
                                              were subjected to this. It's probably just as well that I don't know where
                                              these Laurels are from.

                                              Caitlin (Caid!)

                                              Caitlin Christiana Wintour, OL
                                              Ad augusta per angusta (To high places by narrow roads)




                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Purple Kat
                                              Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 2:24 PM
                                              To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] re: documentation

                                              I don't know most of the story -
                                              But, I was working in the kitchen one event and 2 Laurels were 'hiding out'
                                              there and were discussing the competition.
                                              One of the Ladies said how someone's apprentice "needed one more win to get
                                              her Laurel".
                                              And the other Laurel stated that another entry was technically better - and
                                              the first said "Yes, but that person isn't an apprentice to anyone - it
                                              won't matter if they lose"
                                              The conversation then went on to how they were going to make sure the
                                              apprentice "won" the competition.
                                              I was in extreme shock (to say the least ) to hear 2 peers talk about fixing
                                              a competition, and the fact that "peer like qualities" weren't the way to
                                              get your Laurel!

                                              I later asked who won the A&S and was told it was an apprentice and that
                                              that particular entry wasn't well done, nor well made, nor even
                                              well documented - and everyone was surprised (except the apprentice who won
                                              ) that her entry won.
                                              Among my friends who are Laurels & Pelicans I was given the impression that
                                              this particular lady got her peerage faaarrrr too fast and toooo quick, and
                                              she didn't REALLY have the qualifications. But - they all said - seeing who
                                              her Peer was it was understandable.

                                              Katheryne the Spinner
                                              who removed the group's & event's name to protect those who are truely
                                              innocent
                                            • Varina Suellen Plonski
                                              I get the AS50 emails as a daily digest, so I m reading through a number of messages on this.  I m not sure exactly which part I m more appalled about.  I
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Apr 6 11:44 PM
                                                I get the AS50 emails as a daily digest, so I'm reading through a number of messages on this.  I'm not sure exactly which part I'm more appalled about.  I do know I do NOT want to know which kingdom!
                                                 
                                                In no particular order:
                                                 
                                                There are kingdoms that still judge one item against another?  In Trimaris we judge each item against itself and its documentation.  Of course, I may have missed something in an earlier email where this might be an actual tourney-type competition, as opposed to our Art/Sci event.
                                                 
                                                In reference to fixing the competition - given the above I know it wasn't Trimaris, which is a great relief to me as Principal of the Order in Trimaris as that means I don't have to call out any of my Laurels in our Order meeting!  And no, I'm NOT joking.
                                                 
                                                On so many levels - fixing or attempting to fix a competition?  Peer-like qualities not the way to get a Laurel - or any other Peerage?  Not being an apprentice means it's okay to have a win stolen out from under you? 
                                                 
                                                At first I had thought perhaps the people in question ( I cannot make myself call them Peers) might have meant that they would like to see the apprentice have another good entry before recommending them to the Crown, but the more emails I read made it clear that was not the case.
                                                 
                                                I must agree with Master Euriol (or Mistress - I'm sorry, but I don't recognize the name/gender) - just the perception that this might be the case makes my fingers cold and itchy, and that is not a good thing.
                                                 
                                                I'm shaking my head about the comment "didn't show originality" for an exact replica.  If someone had brought that judging sheet to me I would have had a discussion with the original judge, although I also would have spoken with the entrant about adding personal touches to make it their own. 
                                                 
                                                That's one of the reasons I'm so glad that our entrants can be present for the judging at our Art/Sci. We can discuss things like what's missing from the documentation and find out if they knew the information but left it out for some reason, and explain why we like to see a little personality as well as historical accuracy. 
                                                 
                                                Having the entrant there also seems to improve the communications skills of our judges - far fewer snarky comments make it onto the paper or into the air...  One of my apprentices (now a fellow Laurel) was so upset about a comment about one of her poetry entries that for her next entry she literally documented every single word from a period source. (Personally I thought that was overkill, but ...)
                                                 
                                                Tanikh, (apologies, I don't know your title or gender) I think that the apprentice judging is a wonderful idea, and I may institute that with my own!
                                                 
                                                My lady Jadwiga, it certainly would be helpful if there was a standard for documentation and for judging, but I fear we're way too large and argumentative for that to be feasible now.  Another of my now graduated apprentices teaches a judging class at our Art/Sci. She starts out by judging an item while going through the criteria, documentation and the item in a very in-depth manner and explaining all the whys and wherefores, and then everyone in the class gets to judge the rest of the items in that category. By the time they are done they understand what is needed in their documentation, how an item is judged and why it gets the score it received - and they are much more prepared for their own next entry. I recommend the class to everyone, and I have taken it myself. Even though she says she learned it all from me, I'm definitely a seat-of-the-pants flyer and she's definitely far more organized and coherent than I am. That's why she's a double Peer!
                                                 
                                                My lady Katheryne, I absolutely agree with the WTF regarding being told that your documentation was "invalid" - missing one piece of documentation does not invalidate the remainder, much less the entire entry - but also would have wanted you to document that wool was used for that purpose in that period and culture.  Sure, we all *know* they did - but then I heard for years that *they* didn't use pink in period! (um - not a dyer, but even I know about exhaust dye baths, and sorry - I've seen some of the colors that come from lichens!) It's always better to cover all the bases, even the ones "everybody knows."
                                                 
                                                I'm utterly mystified how anyone can document anything on 3x5 cards...
                                                 
                                                Sorry, all - didn't mean to go on like this.
                                                 
                                                But I'm still emailing it anyway. ;-)
                                                 
                                                 


                                                Varina Suellen Plonski     >^,,^<
                                                To Strive, To Seek, To Find, And Not To Yield

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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