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Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

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  • Joanne Loader
    Greetings, I understand you are putting hard work into your book, but you do have the responsibility to give correct and factual information. Bread is not
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 15 7:34 AM
      Greetings,

      I understand you are putting hard work into your book, but you do have the responsibility to give correct and factual information. Bread is not leaven, that would be spreading false information.

      Yosephina.

      --- Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...> schrieb am Sa, 15.1.2011:

      Von: Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...>
      Betreff: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven
      An: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
      Datum: Samstag, 15. Januar, 2011 15:29 Uhr







       









      thanks everyone for your suggestions  -- I think I will put bread as the meaning

      of "Leaven" in this particular case.  



      YIS



      Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons



      ________________________________

      From: Gwynlyn <gwynlyn34@...>

      To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:10:57 AM

      Subject: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven



       

      My grandmother used to put sliced bread on top of soup/stew/ chili that had been

      scorched or a little burned and put it in the refridgerater overnight. The next

      morning, the bread would have absorbed the burned odor and flavor and she would

      throw it out. So, in that case, just using baked bread works.



      --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, "Patycake1942"

      <patycake1942@...> wrote:

      >

      > I am in the process of writing a cookbook for one of my challenges. I found a

      >cooking hint about taking the burnt taste out of soups and it says to take a

      >little leaven, tie it in a white cloth, and throw it into your pot ( this would

      >be a fresh pot that you have poured the soup into) and leave it there for a

      >short time.

      >

      > I am not sure what they mean by "leaven" is it leaven bread or something else.

      >

      > Thanks

      >

      > Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons

      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Pat Rogers
      since we have no idea what the old gentleman actually meant  by leaven = he could of meant leaven bread as opposed to unleaven bread   --  or even a
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 15 7:52 AM
        since we have no idea what the old gentleman actually meant  by leaven = he
        could of meant leaven bread as opposed to unleaven bread   --  or even a
        sourdough starter like someone else suugested for what he meant by leaven.   I
        do know the meaning of leaven but I really don't think he meant yeast  -- as
        yeast dissolves and does not have the properties alone to soak up the burnt
        taste.  Now leaven bread tied in a white cloth would soak up the burnt taste. 
        And too, have to remember this was a man writing down these hints so it is
        possible he meant leaven bread as opposed to unleaven bread. LOL

        Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons




        ________________________________
        From: Joanne Loader <joanneloader@...>
        To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:34:38 AM
        Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

         
        Greetings,

        I understand you are putting hard work into your book, but you do have the
        responsibility to give correct and factual information. Bread is not leaven,
        that would be spreading false information.

        Yosephina.

        --- Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...> schrieb am Sa, 15.1.2011:

        Von: Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...>
        Betreff: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven
        An: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
        Datum: Samstag, 15. Januar, 2011 15:29 Uhr

         

        thanks everyone for your suggestions  -- I think I will put bread as the meaning


        of "Leaven" in this particular case.  

        YIS

        Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons

        ________________________________

        From: Gwynlyn <gwynlyn34@...>

        To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:10:57 AM

        Subject: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

         

        My grandmother used to put sliced bread on top of soup/stew/ chili that had been


        scorched or a little burned and put it in the refridgerater overnight. The next

        morning, the bread would have absorbed the burned odor and flavor and she would

        throw it out. So, in that case, just using baked bread works.

        --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, "Patycake1942"

        <patycake1942@...> wrote:

        >

        > I am in the process of writing a cookbook for one of my challenges. I found a

        >cooking hint about taking the burnt taste out of soups and it says to take a

        >little leaven, tie it in a white cloth, and throw it into your pot ( this would


        >be a fresh pot that you have poured the soup into) and leave it there for a

        >short time.

        >

        > I am not sure what they mean by "leaven" is it leaven bread or something else.

        >

        > Thanks

        >

        > Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons

        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Joanne Loader
        Leaven can refer to a number of things...Leavening is an agent that produces fermentation. The leavening agent produces gas, air, or steam that expands when
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 15 8:19 AM
          Leaven can refer to a number of things...Leavening is an agent that produces fermentation. The leavening agent
          produces gas, air, or steam that expands when heated, making the
          resulting product light and altering grain textures. 'quote  from http://www.thejournal.org/recipes/unleaven/what-is-leaven.html '

          A combination of the following would have the mentioned effect:
          Baking Soda (To be
          used as leaven it must be mixed with a food acid like buttermilk, sour
          milk, molasses, vinegar, lemon juice, or Cream of Tartar). Cream of tartar alone will not leaven anything but is often used to flavour food and drinks.
          Yosephina. 
          --- Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...> schrieb am Sa, 15.1.2011:

          Von: Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...>
          Betreff: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven
          An: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
          Datum: Samstag, 15. Januar, 2011 15:52 Uhr







           









          since we have no idea what the old gentleman actually meant  by leaven = he

          could of meant leaven bread as opposed to unleaven bread   --  or even a

          sourdough starter like someone else suugested for what he meant by leaven.   I

          do know the meaning of leaven but I really don't think he meant yeast  -- as

          yeast dissolves and does not have the properties alone to soak up the burnt

          taste.  Now leaven bread tied in a white cloth would soak up the burnt taste. 

          And too, have to remember this was a man writing down these hints so it is

          possible he meant leaven bread as opposed to unleaven bread. LOL



          Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons



          ________________________________

          From: Joanne Loader <joanneloader@...>

          To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:34:38 AM

          Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven



           

          Greetings,



          I understand you are putting hard work into your book, but you do have the

          responsibility to give correct and factual information. Bread is not leaven,

          that would be spreading false information.



          Yosephina.



          --- Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...> schrieb am Sa, 15.1.2011:



          Von: Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...>

          Betreff: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

          An: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

          Datum: Samstag, 15. Januar, 2011 15:29 Uhr



           



          thanks everyone for your suggestions  -- I think I will put bread as the meaning



          of "Leaven" in this particular case.  



          YIS



          Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons



          ________________________________



          From: Gwynlyn <gwynlyn34@...>



          To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com



          Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:10:57 AM



          Subject: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven



           



          My grandmother used to put sliced bread on top of soup/stew/ chili that had been



          scorched or a little burned and put it in the refridgerater overnight. The next



          morning, the bread would have absorbed the burned odor and flavor and she would



          throw it out. So, in that case, just using baked bread works.



          --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, "Patycake1942"



          <patycake1942@...> wrote:



          >



          > I am in the process of writing a cookbook for one of my challenges. I found a



          >cooking hint about taking the burnt taste out of soups and it says to take a



          >little leaven, tie it in a white cloth, and throw it into your pot ( this would



          >be a fresh pot that you have poured the soup into) and leave it there for a



          >short time.



          >



          > I am not sure what they mean by "leaven" is it leaven bread or something else.



          >



          > Thanks



          >



          > Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons



          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ted Eisenstein
          ... Yeah, but would baking soda or cream of tartar have been known in period, and used as a bad-taste-soaker-upper? What would a 14th-century guy have used?
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 15 8:30 AM
            >Leaven can refer to a number of things...Leavening is an agent that produces
            >fermentation. The leavening agent
            >produces gas, air, or steam that expands when heated, making the
            >resulting product light and altering grain textures. 'quote from http://www.thejournal.org/recipes/unleaven/what-is-leaven.html '
            >
            >A combination of the following would have the mentioned effect:
            >Baking Soda (To be
            > used as leaven it must be mixed with a food acid like buttermilk, sour
            >milk, molasses, vinegar, lemon juice, or Cream of Tartar). Cream of tartar
            >alone will not leaven anything but is often used to flavour food and drinks..

            Yeah, but would baking soda or cream of tartar have been known in
            period, and used as a bad-taste-soaker-upper?

            What would a 14th-century guy have used? That's the point, not what
            we can use today.

            Alban
          • Pat Rogers
            I read all that too -- also a piece of bread dough that is in the rising stage can also be used as a leaven agent. and that would make more sense considering
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 15 8:33 AM
              I read all that too -- also a piece of bread dough that is in the rising stage
              can also be used as a leaven agent. and that would make more sense considering
              the directions for putting the leaven in the pot.  The information in my Preface
              actually is exerts from a real book written by a real elderly gentleman for his
              inexperienced young wife -- The only reason for giving an explanation of what
              leaven and verjuice is is so that readers who may find the antidotes as
              interesting as I did can actually try them. 





              ________________________________
              From: Joanne Loader <joanneloader@...>
              To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 11:19:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

               
              Leaven can refer to a number of things...Leavening is an agent that produces
              fermentation. The leavening agent

              produces gas, air, or steam that expands when heated, making the
              resulting product light and altering grain textures. 'quote  from
              http://www.thejournal.org/recipes/unleaven/what-is-leaven.html '

              A combination of the following would have the mentioned effect:
              Baking Soda (To be
              used as leaven it must be mixed with a food acid like buttermilk, sour
              milk, molasses, vinegar, lemon juice, or Cream of Tartar). Cream of tartar alone
              will not leaven anything but is often used to flavour food and drinks.
              Yosephina. 
              --- Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...> schrieb am Sa, 15.1.2011:

              Von: Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...>
              Betreff: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven
              An: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
              Datum: Samstag, 15. Januar, 2011 15:52 Uhr

               

              since we have no idea what the old gentleman actually meant  by leaven = he

              could of meant leaven bread as opposed to unleaven bread   --  or even a

              sourdough starter like someone else suugested for what he meant by leaven.   I

              do know the meaning of leaven but I really don't think he meant yeast  -- as

              yeast dissolves and does not have the properties alone to soak up the burnt

              taste.  Now leaven bread tied in a white cloth would soak up the burnt taste. 

              And too, have to remember this was a man writing down these hints so it is

              possible he meant leaven bread as opposed to unleaven bread. LOL

              Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons

              ________________________________

              From: Joanne Loader <joanneloader@...>

              To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

              Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:34:38 AM

              Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

               

              Greetings,

              I understand you are putting hard work into your book, but you do have the

              responsibility to give correct and factual information. Bread is not leaven,

              that would be spreading false information.

              Yosephina.

              --- Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...> schrieb am Sa, 15.1.2011:

              Von: Pat Rogers <patycake1942@...>

              Betreff: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

              An: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

              Datum: Samstag, 15. Januar, 2011 15:29 Uhr

               

              thanks everyone for your suggestions  -- I think I will put bread as the meaning


              of "Leaven" in this particular case.  

              YIS

              Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons

              ________________________________

              From: Gwynlyn <gwynlyn34@...>

              To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

              Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:10:57 AM

              Subject: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

               

              My grandmother used to put sliced bread on top of soup/stew/ chili that had been


              scorched or a little burned and put it in the refridgerater overnight. The next

              morning, the bread would have absorbed the burned odor and flavor and she would

              throw it out. So, in that case, just using baked bread works.

              --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, "Patycake1942"

              <patycake1942@...> wrote:

              >

              > I am in the process of writing a cookbook for one of my challenges. I found a

              >cooking hint about taking the burnt taste out of soups and it says to take a

              >little leaven, tie it in a white cloth, and throw it into your pot ( this would


              >be a fresh pot that you have poured the soup into) and leave it there for a

              >short time.

              >

              > I am not sure what they mean by "leaven" is it leaven bread or something else.

              >

              > Thanks

              >

              > Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons

              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joanne Loader
              Sorry I forgot a little part... leaven does not refer to bread it refers to the agents used to ferment it. The two items I mentioned are just an example.
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 15 9:10 AM
                Sorry I forgot a little part...

                leaven does not refer to bread it refers to the agents used to ferment it. The two items I mentioned are just an example.

                Yosephina

                --- Ted Eisenstein <alban@...> schrieb am Sa, 15.1.2011:

                Von: Ted Eisenstein <alban@...>
                Betreff: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven
                An: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                Datum: Samstag, 15. Januar, 2011 16:30 Uhr







                 









                >Leaven can refer to a number of things...Leavening is an agent that produces

                >fermentation. The leavening agent

                >produces gas, air, or steam that expands when heated, making the

                >resulting product light and altering grain textures. 'quote from http://www.thejournal.org/recipes/unleaven/what-is-leaven.html '

                >

                >A combination of the following would have the mentioned effect:

                >Baking Soda (To be

                > used as leaven it must be mixed with a food acid like buttermilk, sour

                >milk, molasses, vinegar, lemon juice, or Cream of Tartar). Cream of tartar

                >alone will not leaven anything but is often used to flavour food and drinks..



                Yeah, but would baking soda or cream of tartar have been known in

                period, and used as a bad-taste-soaker-upper?



                What would a 14th-century guy have used? That's the point, not what

                we can use today.



                Alban






















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Joanne Loader
                A quick look at the history of baking soda: http://www.recipes4us.co.uk/specials%20and%20holidays/baking%20powder%20and%20soda%20origin%20uses%20recipes.htm
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 15 9:20 AM
                  A quick look at the history of baking soda:

                  http://www.recipes4us.co.uk/specials%20and%20holidays/baking%20powder%20and%20soda%20origin%20uses%20recipes.htm


                  --- Joanne Loader <joanneloader@...> schrieb am Sa, 15.1.2011:

                  Von: Joanne Loader <joanneloader@...>
                  Betreff: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven
                  An: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                  Datum: Samstag, 15. Januar, 2011 17:10 Uhr







                   









                  Sorry I forgot a little part...



                  leaven does not refer to bread it refers to the agents used to ferment it. The two items I mentioned are just an example.



                  Yosephina



                  --- Ted Eisenstein <alban@...> schrieb am Sa, 15.1.2011:



                  Von: Ted Eisenstein <alban@...>

                  Betreff: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

                  An: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com

                  Datum: Samstag, 15. Januar, 2011 16:30 Uhr



                   



                  >Leaven can refer to a number of things...Leavening is an agent that produces



                  >fermentation. The leavening agent



                  >produces gas, air, or steam that expands when heated, making the



                  >resulting product light and altering grain textures. 'quote from http://www.thejournal.org/recipes/unleaven/what-is-leaven.html '



                  >



                  >A combination of the following would have the mentioned effect:



                  >Baking Soda (To be



                  > used as leaven it must be mixed with a food acid like buttermilk, sour



                  >milk, molasses, vinegar, lemon juice, or Cream of Tartar). Cream of tartar



                  >alone will not leaven anything but is often used to flavour food and drinks..



                  Yeah, but would baking soda or cream of tartar have been known in



                  period, and used as a bad-taste-soaker-upper?



                  What would a 14th-century guy have used? That's the point, not what



                  we can use today.



                  Alban



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Dianna
                  To answer someone s question, yes, baking soda and baking powder were used in period. Their usage is early iron age onward. Leaven, as used historically,
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 15 10:04 AM
                    To answer someone's question, yes, baking soda and baking powder were
                    used in period. Their usage is early iron age onward.

                    Leaven, as used historically, referred to a dough like substance that
                    was a byproduct of the brewing business. Its essentially enough flour
                    and sweetener to feed yeast and a little water. A leaven was kept alive
                    by feeding it, much like a sour dough, and a pinch of it being added to
                    whatever bread or beer that was being made. To substitute bread would
                    be wrong as it wasn't bread. An important point because of the Jewish
                    rites where unleavened bread was called for. (Bread can be leavened or
                    not leavened.) Leaven is a perfectly good word that prefers to a
                    specific substance. I wouldn't substitute anything for the word but
                    would put a footnote perhaps.
                    Dianna

                    On 1/15/2011 8:29 AM, Pat Rogers wrote:
                    > thanks everyone for your suggestions -- I think I will put bread as the meaning
                    > of "Leaven" in this particular case.
                    >
                    >
                    > YIS
                    >
                    > Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Gwynlyn<gwynlyn34@...>
                    > To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:10:57 AM
                    > Subject: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven
                    >
                    >
                    > My grandmother used to put sliced bread on top of soup/stew/ chili that had been
                    > scorched or a little burned and put it in the refridgerater overnight. The next
                    > morning, the bread would have absorbed the burned odor and flavor and she would
                    > throw it out. So, in that case, just using baked bread works.
                    >
                    > --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, "Patycake1942"
                    > <patycake1942@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> I am in the process of writing a cookbook for one of my challenges. I found a
                    >> cooking hint about taking the burnt taste out of soups and it says to take a
                    >> little leaven, tie it in a white cloth, and throw it into your pot ( this would
                    >> be a fresh pot that you have poured the soup into) and leave it there for a
                    >> short time.
                    >>
                    >> I am not sure what they mean by "leaven" is it leaven bread or something else.
                    >>
                    >> Thanks
                    >>
                    >> Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Books are not lumps of lifeless papers but, minds alive in conversation
                    with you.
                  • Ted Eisenstein
                    ... Ah, so. I learn something every day; thanks. Alban
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 15 10:08 AM
                      >To answer someone's question, yes, baking soda and baking powder were
                      >used in period. Their usage is early iron age onward.
                      Ah, so. I learn something every day; thanks.

                      Alban
                    • Pat Rogers
                      Leaven –noun 1. a substance, as yeast or baking powder, that causes fermentation and expansion of dough or batter. 2. fermented dough reserved for producing
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 15 10:32 AM
                        Leaven –noun 1. a substance, as yeast or baking powder, that causes fermentation
                        and expansion of dough or batter. 2. fermented dough reserved for producing
                        fermentation


                        So one could use a piece of dough  -- 

                        There are several translations of Le Mesnagier de Paris -- In 1846 Baron Jerome
                        Picuhon, published an edition of the text based on a study of all three
                        manuscripts, one of which he himself owned at the time.  He made many changes in
                        t he text, in places altering the spelling and substituting his own words. 
                        Eileen Power summed up some of the intriguing passages in one chapter of her
                        Medieval People in 1924.  In 1928 she translated most of Pichon;'s text and
                        published it und the title "the Goodman Of Pares"  


                        I used the – Translated and edited by Tania Bayard
                        "A Medieval Home Companion – Housekeeping in the Fourteenth Century"
                         
                        Even that book is only a partial rendering of the original manuscript.
                         
                        The thing is the more people that translate something the more difference you
                        will get.   Their interpretation of the document can vary -  I was only using
                        this small part of the book as a Preface to my book  --  therefore I believe I
                        can say leaven is yeast but it can also be a piece of dough  that would be used
                        as a leaven to start other dough.
                         
                        I think we all learned something from my original question -- that is what it is
                        all about exchange ideas and knowledge.
                         
                        Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons




                        ________________________________
                        From: Dianna <avacyn@...>
                        To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 1:04:26 PM
                        Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven

                         
                        To answer someone's question, yes, baking soda and baking powder were
                        used in period. Their usage is early iron age onward.

                        Leaven, as used historically, referred to a dough like substance that
                        was a byproduct of the brewing business. Its essentially enough flour
                        and sweetener to feed yeast and a little water. A leaven was kept alive
                        by feeding it, much like a sour dough, and a pinch of it being added to
                        whatever bread or beer that was being made. To substitute bread would
                        be wrong as it wasn't bread. An important point because of the Jewish
                        rites where unleavened bread was called for. (Bread can be leavened or
                        not leavened.) Leaven is a perfectly good word that prefers to a
                        specific substance. I wouldn't substitute anything for the word but
                        would put a footnote perhaps.
                        Dianna

                        On 1/15/2011 8:29 AM, Pat Rogers wrote:
                        > thanks everyone for your suggestions -- I think I will put bread as the
                        meaning
                        > of "Leaven" in this particular case.
                        >
                        >
                        > YIS
                        >
                        > Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Gwynlyn<gwynlyn34@...>
                        > To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:10:57 AM
                        > Subject: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven
                        >
                        >
                        > My grandmother used to put sliced bread on top of soup/stew/ chili that had
                        >been
                        > scorched or a little burned and put it in the refridgerater overnight. The
                        next
                        > morning, the bread would have absorbed the burned odor and flavor and she
                        would
                        > throw it out. So, in that case, just using baked bread works.
                        >
                        > --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, "Patycake1942"
                        > <patycake1942@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> I am in the process of writing a cookbook for one of my challenges. I found a
                        >> cooking hint about taking the burnt taste out of soups and it says to take a
                        >> little leaven, tie it in a white cloth, and throw it into your pot ( this
                        >would
                        >> be a fresh pot that you have poured the soup into) and leave it there for a
                        >> short time.
                        >>
                        >> I am not sure what they mean by "leaven" is it leaven bread or something
                        else.
                        >>
                        >> Thanks
                        >>
                        >> Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
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                        Books are not lumps of lifeless papers but, minds alive in conversation
                        with you.






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • lilinah@earthlink.net
                        ... I think you meant anecdotes. Antidotes counteract poisons. BTW, Dara, the book you are using is most commonly known among cooks in the SCA as Le Menagier
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 15 2:14 PM
                          Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons wrote:
                          >The information in my Preface
                          >actually is exerts from a real book written by a real elderly
                          >gentleman for his
                          >inexperienced young wife -- The only reason for giving an explanation of what
                          >leaven and verjuice is is so that readers who may find the antidotes as
                          >interesting as I did can actually try them.

                          I think you meant anecdotes. Antidotes counteract poisons.

                          BTW, Dara, the book you are using is most commonly known among cooks
                          in the SCA as Le Menagier de Paris, dated to 1393. There are a number
                          of at least partial translations, and much analysis of this
                          manuscript. So if you read more than one translation you are likely
                          to find a good discussion of what he meant by leaven or a better
                          translation of the original late 14th c. French word.

                          The information you are getting from this list is largely anecdotal,
                          not scholarly.
                          --
                          Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                          the persona formerly known as Anahita
                        • lilinah@earthlink.net
                          ... The use of some leavening agent goes back that far, true. But baking soda and baking powder, chemical leavening agents, were quite unknown in SCA period
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 15 2:35 PM
                            Dianna wrote:
                            >To answer someone's question, yes, baking soda and baking powder were
                            >used in period. Their usage is early iron age onward.

                            The use of some leavening agent goes back that far, true.

                            But baking soda and baking powder, chemical leavening agents, were
                            quite unknown in SCA period and largely developed in the 19th c.

                            Hartshorn, on the other hand, sometimes called baker's ammonia, was
                            used in very late SCA period. Chemically it is ammonium bicarbonate,
                            as distinct from sodium bicarbonate, which is baking soda, unknown in
                            SCA period. It is still used today in parts of Europe. It is used for
                            thin baked goods, aka cookies (US)/biscuits (UK), or what may be
                            called in 16th c. recipes, small cakes; i have purchased wafers at
                            Trader Joes made with it. However, it is unsuitable for anything
                            taller or denser, such as a modern cake or unyeasted sweet bread,
                            because the gas that results from heating it, and which creates the
                            leavening effect, will not escape the baked good leaving an ammoniac
                            odor.

                            Natron was known in some places, especially North Africa and the
                            Middle East. It is a naturally occurring mixture of sodium carbonate,
                            a kind of soda ash, close to 15% sodium bicarbonate (what we call
                            baking soda), and smaller amounts of sodium sulfate and sodium
                            chloride/table salt. It was used by ancient Egyptians in the
                            preservation of mummies. It was used in glass making and to create a
                            blue glaze in ceramics. It was used as a cleaner and also had
                            medicinal uses, appearing in medicinal formularies of the medieval
                            Muslim world, where it was mentioned as a dentifrice, mouthwash, and
                            antiseptic for wounds. It was sometimes used in the preservation of
                            fish and meat. But i have not heard of it used as a leavening.

                            The most common leaven throughout SCA period everywhere with which i
                            am familiar is yeast in some form.

                            --
                            Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                            the persona formerly known as Anahita
                          • lilinah@earthlink.net
                            ... Most SCA period recipes use ingredients we have in our kitchens or have easy access to. -- Urtatim [that s err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 15 2:40 PM
                              Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons wrote:
                              >When I was researching different recipes for the cooking guild I
                              >belong to, I found
                              >it very interesting that there is so many things we cook today that have been
                              >around for centuries. So this book will have fifty recipes that can
                              >be prepared
                              >from ingredients that one would already have in their kitchen, but
                              >is actually a
                              >period dish.

                              Most SCA period recipes use ingredients we have in our kitchens or
                              have easy access to.

                              --
                              Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                              the persona formerly known as Anahita
                            • Pat Rogers
                              Urtatim First of all I know that but people who are not in the SCA don t and that is who the book is being written for  -- Title of the book is Timeless
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jan 15 3:39 PM
                                Urtatim

                                First of all I know that but people who are not in the SCA don't and that is who
                                the book is being written for  -- Title of the book is "Timeless Recipes (1100 -
                                1600) For The Modern Day Cook"  I have many mundane people all ready requesting
                                a copy of it.  As far as my spelling goes -- I was never a good speller- thank
                                goodness for spell check lol -- if I knew I was being marked on my spelling I
                                would have taken the time to use it. I have no idea who you are and I really
                                don't care -- I think some of your raemarks where completely out of line and
                                hurting.  I am 68 years old and I would never put people down as you did me --
                                This is the last time I will ask a question of this group -- it only takes one
                                rotten apple to spoil the basket.  Sorry everyone  --  but even I can only take
                                so much.  Thank you everyone for all the helpful suggestions you gave me.  The
                                SCA is a hobby for me not my life.  I not only cook but also do illumination and
                                I teach beaded embroidery -- I am quite active and even served as Mistress of
                                Arts and Science for my canton.  If I was a newcomer and this remarks were made
                                to me (or should I say put downs)  it would discourage me from doing anything or
                                even being a member of the SCA.

                                To bad SCA doesn't have a course on people skills as I know a person who needs a
                                few lessons

                                YIS
                                Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons

                                 




                                ________________________________
                                From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                                To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 5:40:33 PM
                                Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Leaven

                                 
                                Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons wrote:
                                >When I was researching different recipes for the cooking guild I
                                >belong to, I found
                                >it very interesting that there is so many things we cook today that have been
                                >around for centuries. So this book will have fifty recipes that can
                                >be prepared
                                >from ingredients that one would already have in their kitchen, but
                                >is actually a
                                >period dish.

                                Most SCA period recipes use ingredients we have in our kitchens or
                                have easy access to.

                                --
                                Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                the persona formerly known as Anahita






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • JBurrows
                                It also seems to me you are using a translation of the original Old French. It might be educational to look for the original and see what that word was...
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jan 15 6:28 PM
                                  It also seems to me you are using a translation of the original Old French. It might be educational to look for the original and see what that word was...
                                  Tanikh

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Pat Rogers
                                  To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 7:29 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven



                                  thanks everyone for your suggestions -- I think I will put bread as the meaning
                                  of "Leaven" in this particular case.

                                  YIS

                                  Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons

                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Gwynlyn <gwynlyn34@...>
                                  To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:10:57 AM
                                  Subject: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Leaven


                                  My grandmother used to put sliced bread on top of soup/stew/ chili that had been
                                  scorched or a little burned and put it in the refridgerater overnight. The next
                                  morning, the bread would have absorbed the burned odor and flavor and she would
                                  throw it out. So, in that case, just using baked bread works.

                                  --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, "Patycake1942"
                                  <patycake1942@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I am in the process of writing a cookbook for one of my challenges. I found a
                                  >cooking hint about taking the burnt taste out of soups and it says to take a
                                  >little leaven, tie it in a white cloth, and throw it into your pot ( this would
                                  >be a fresh pot that you have poured the soup into) and leave it there for a
                                  >short time.
                                  >
                                  > I am not sure what they mean by "leaven" is it leaven bread or something else.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks
                                  >
                                  > Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                  ... And as you are also no doubt aware, many people *IN* the SCA are uncertain of or prejudiced against cuisines from within SCA period and suffer under
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jan 16 2:36 PM
                                    I wrote:
                                    >>Most SCA period recipes use ingredients we have in our kitchens or
                                    >>have easy access to.

                                    And Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons replied:
                                    >First of all I know that but people who are not in the SCA don't and
                                    >that is who
                                    >the book is being written for...

                                    And as you are also no doubt aware, many people *IN* the SCA are
                                    uncertain of or prejudiced against cuisines from within SCA period
                                    and suffer under misapprehensions such as SCA period food is weird,
                                    or uses odd ingredients quite alien to modern taste, or is just
                                    downright inedible.

                                    So i think it is a benefit to all to be exposed to SCA period food
                                    that is not too unfamiliar, in various ways, such as your proposed
                                    book.

                                    I wrote:
                                    >>I think you meant anecdotes. Antidotes counteract poisons.

                                    And Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons replied:
                                    >As far as my spelling goes -- I was never a good speller- thank
                                    >goodness for spell check lol -- if I knew I was being marked on my spelling I
                                    >would have taken the time to use it.

                                    Misspellings and typos i can live with; i make them, too.

                                    But what i mentioned was not an issue of spelling. Anecdote and
                                    antidote are two completely different words with very different
                                    meanings, something no spell checker could catch. And spell checkers
                                    miss many actual misspellings, for example, if one mistypes a
                                    homophone (carrot, carat, and caret; or pallet, palette, and palate)
                                    or when missed punctuation creates another legitimate word (such as
                                    cant vs. can't; or wont vs. won't); and spell checkers may not catch
                                    misused words. The English language can be a confusing and
                                    confounding beast.

                                    >I have no idea who you are and I really don't care...

                                    Whether or not we know each other should make no difference in
                                    conducting civil discourse.

                                    >...I think some of your raemarks where completely out of line and
                                    >hurting.

                                    I am sorry to hear that you are in pain. It was certainly not my
                                    intent to cause injury. I made one simple statement to further the
                                    conversation and one brief supposition to help clarify and prevent
                                    misunderstanding.

                                    >I am 68 years old and I would never put people down as you did me --

                                    I do not put people down on e-mail lists. There is enough
                                    unpleasantness in the world. And i especially would not be mean to my
                                    SCA comrades, because i have friends in many kingdoms. This list,
                                    like many others, is a place to encourage and assist. That was what i
                                    attempted.

                                    >This is the last time I will ask a question of this group -- it only takes one
                                    >rotten apple to spoil the basket. Sorry everyone -- but even I can only take
                                    >so much. Thank you everyone for all the helpful suggestions you gave me. The
                                    >SCA is a hobby for me not my life. I not only cook but also do
                                    >illumination and
                                    >I teach beaded embroidery -- I am quite active and even served as Mistress of
                                    >Arts and Science for my canton. If I was a newcomer and this remarks were made
                                    >to me (or should I say put downs) it would discourage me from doing
                                    >anything or
                                    >even being a member of the SCA.

                                    I try to be of service to all, whether new to the SCA, long in it, or
                                    just visiting for a few hours, and that service may be physical (such
                                    as at an event) or virtual (on the internet).

                                    I, too, have held eleven offices mostly at principality and kingdom
                                    levels, including several Arts & Sciences positions and A&S-related
                                    posts. I have even won some A&S and cooking competitions (blush).

                                    I have been head cook for quite a few feasts at shire, province,
                                    principality, and kingdom levels; prepared private feasts for royalty
                                    of two principalities and the kingdom; and assisted in the feast
                                    kitchens of many cooks over the years. I make my feasts using period
                                    recipes, since i firmly believe that SCA period food can be
                                    exceedingly delicious (although i used a modern recipe when an
                                    autocrat had a special request). For example, several inveterate
                                    eggplant haters ended up each having 3 servings of a 13th c. Middle
                                    Eastern eggplant dish i prepared:
                                    http://home.earthlink.net/~al-tabbakhah/2001_Feasts/persianrecipes.html#eggplant

                                    I also teach cooking classes locally. And i was invited out of my
                                    kingdom to teach again at the upcoming An Tir Culinary Symposium in
                                    April. I will offer classes on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman cuisine and
                                    on 16th c. Persian cuisine, which will mix lecture and hands-on
                                    cooking.

                                    I joined this list within its first year, so i have been here a
                                    while. My A&S 50 challenge is to cook 50 dishes i have not tried
                                    before, serve them to others, and share the recipes via my website.
                                    I'm about halfway there. As my arthritis is getting pretty bad with
                                    the current cold weather and my age, i am not sure if i will head
                                    cook another large feast, so i find other ways to get them into
                                    people :)

                                    >To bad SCA doesn't have a course on people skills as I know a person
                                    >who needs a
                                    >few lessons

                                    I still have much to discover in our modern world, and the world of
                                    history. As i love to learn, i know i will continue to expand my
                                    knowledge and skills.

                                    --
                                    Urtatim al-Qurtubiyya bint 'abd al-Karim al-hakam al-Fassi

                                    Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                    the persona formerly known as Anahita

                                    Ride your camel to Dar Anahita
                                    http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah
                                    for information on Near & Middle Eastern clothing,
                                    pre-1601 cooking, Medieval Muslim knitting,
                                    and more.
                                  • Verena Entenwirt
                                    Dear Daire, I just taught a class this weekend on levened breads, starters and different rising agents. Would you like me to send over my handout and
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jan 17 7:09 AM
                                      Dear Daire,

                                      I just taught a class this weekend on levened breads, starters and different
                                      rising agents. Would you like me to send over my handout and documentation
                                      on it?

                                      Verena

                                      On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Patycake1942 <patycake1942@...>wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I am in the process of writing a cookbook for one of my challenges. I found
                                      > a cooking hint about taking the burnt taste out of soups and it says to take
                                      > a little leaven, tie it in a white cloth, and throw it into your pot ( this
                                      > would be a fresh pot that you have poured the soup into) and leave it there
                                      > for a short time.
                                      >
                                      > I am not sure what they mean by "leaven" is it leaven bread or something
                                      > else.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks
                                      >
                                      > Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      --
                                      Lady Verena Entenwirth
                                      www.broomstich.com


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Pat Rogers
                                      Thank you for your offer --  It is actually the Preface of the cookbook where the hints are, and I wanted to give the meaning of two words and in what context
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jan 17 7:30 AM
                                        Thank you for your offer --  It is actually the Preface of the cookbook where
                                        the hints are, and I wanted to give the meaning of two words and in what context
                                        they were being used.  The Preface is exerts  from "A Medieval Home Companion –
                                        Housekeeping in the Fourteenth Century" – 

                                        After much discussion and research this is what I finally wrote

                                        *Leaven
                                         ** Verjuice
                                         
                                        The name of the book that I am writing is

                                           "Timeless Recipes (1100 to 1600) For Modern Day Cooks"
                                         
                                        Daire or verjus derives from the phrase 'green juice' and was widely used in the
                                        Middle Ages. Having fallen from favour, to the point where few people have even
                                        heard of it, it is now experiencing a fashionable revival. It is usually a sour,
                                        acidic juice extracted from unripened grapes and therefore is often produced by
                                        wine makers, especially in France, Australia and Spain. In Britain verjuice used
                                        to be made with crab apples is not only yeast but can also be a piece of dough
                                        that is fermented and can be used for another batch of dough. I believe he was
                                        referring to bread that was in the rising stage, such as sourdough bread, and
                                        that one took a piece of this rising bread and tied it in white cloth and
                                        dropped it into the pot for a few minutes.



                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Verena Entenwirt <verena@...>
                                        To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com; patycake1942@...
                                        Sent: Mon, January 17, 2011 10:09:26 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Leaven

                                        Dear Daire,

                                        I just taught a class this weekend on levened breads, starters and different
                                        rising agents. Would you like me to send over my handout and documentation
                                        on it?

                                        Verena

                                        On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Patycake1942 <patycake1942@...>wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I am in the process of writing a cookbook for one of my challenges. I found
                                        > a cooking hint about taking the burnt taste out of soups and it says to take
                                        > a little leaven, tie it in a white cloth, and throw it into your pot ( this
                                        > would be a fresh pot that you have poured the soup into) and leave it there
                                        > for a short time.
                                        >
                                        > I am not sure what they mean by "leaven" is it leaven bread or something
                                        > else.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks
                                        >
                                        > Daire (Dara) of the Three Moons
                                        >

                                        >



                                        --
                                        Lady Verena Entenwirth
                                        www.broomstich.com


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