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Re: Disastrous New Youth A&S Policy for Pennsic

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  • owyn_sca
    Sure! Pennsic youth policy: http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn39/GENERAL/youth.html Short form: Youth 11 and younger must have an adult or teenager with them at
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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      Sure! Pennsic youth policy:
      http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn39/GENERAL/youth.html

      Short form:
      Youth 11 and younger must have an adult or teenager with them at all times to supervise them (adult after dark). Youth 12 and older must be in their camp by 11pm (or with a parent/legal guardian), but have no other supervision requirements.

      The two-deep rule applies to A&S classes. A single adult teacher who was teaching a class to a single minor would be in violation of this. However, even one additional adult in class would suffice to meet the requirement.

      *Youth* activities are required to have a person with an SCA sanctioned background check. Adult or family activities are not required to have this, even if youth are in attendance.

      Owyn

      --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, Jacintha of Highland Foorde <jacintha74@...> wrote:
      >
      > Atlantian Youth Activities Handbook dictates that a warranted youth
      > officer must be present at youth Activities, Events and Classes, as
      > well as at least two unrelated adults. Youth must be signed in and
      > out by parents. Youth are not defined by policy, but assumed to be
      > less than 18 years as presumed by external laws.
      >
      > Note that these policies generally would not apply due the the site
      > not being Atlantian, Aethelmarc policy should apply. Can any one
      > provide said documents?
      >
      >
      > On 7/6/10, owyn_sca <kevins.studio@...> wrote:
      > > My apologies for the double reply, as well. :) Good point, Ian - except
      > > the information is in error. Teens are not required by SCA Inc. to be
      > > supervised by a parent while at activities. I'm not entirely sure what the
      > > ruling is for the younger crowd, but I'm very clear that there is no such
      > > rule for teens.
      > >
      > > --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Roland"
      > > <mystborne@> wrote:
      > >> "From another list I got the information that this codifes an existing
      > >> practice at Pennsic. The argument is that the classes are an official
      > >> function of the SCA, Inc., so in that case it has to follow SCA, Inc.,
      > >> rules for children at events, i.e., the requirement that there either be
      > >> a parent/legal guardian present or two gentles to observe.
      > >> Ian
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Lady Jacintha of Highland Foorde
      > Chancellor Minor - Barony of Highland Foorde
      > jacintha74@...
      >
      > * Nam in dando recipimus *
      > * For it is in giving that we receive *
      > * Francis of Assisi 1185-1226 *
      >
    • owyn_sca
      The Pennsic staff has made a rule change; now the new youth rule says children can attend A&S classes accompanied by any adult appointed by a parent, not just
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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        The Pennsic staff has made a rule change; now the new youth rule says children can attend A&S classes accompanied by any adult appointed by a parent, not just parents. And...that's a huge step in the right direction. It's a change - I suspect the people involved in this decision were not expecting such massive anger and disapproval. This subject is a hot topic on many, many lists besides this one, and the response has been overwhelmingly negative.

        So they tweaked the rule. Honestly, I think this is a lot better.

        It still doesn't really solve the problem, though.

        The problem is, 12-17 year olds are free to wander anywhere they want to at Pennsic. *Except* to one of the activities most likely to keep them safe. The rule was purportedly established for youth safety, but in fact will have the opposite effect. It will also discourage teens from attending A&S, and discourage precisely those teens we *want* to get more involved from doing so.

        It's a step. The folks making these rules understand that we're upset, and are trying to make this work. I don't think we're where we need to be, yet, but this is progress.

        Owyn
      • S.E. Buchter
        I know this is inappropriate and does not help the situation...but the thought made me giggle No Teens! You are not allowed to spend your time learning and
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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          I know this is inappropriate and does not help the situation...but the thought made me giggle


          No Teens! You are not allowed to spend your time learning and becoming better educated, well rounded people...instead  go find a place to sneak off and have sex like many of the other teens choose to  do rather than studying medieval history, after all, it is safer and does not require parental presence.

          Sorry for the lapse in decorum, but I am overwhelmed by the ridiculousness of this ruling.

          Ysemay

















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • thepyratequeen
          I m possibly speaking out of turn here, and I don t mean to offend anyone, but...what is the problem with expecting parents to provide someone to look out for
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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            I'm possibly speaking out of turn here, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but...what is the problem with expecting parents to provide someone to look out for their children? I may be coming to this from a jaded point of view; I've seen disputes before from parents in the SCA who expect to bring their children to events and turn them loose to be watched by the rest of their shires while the parents fight and dance and whatever. The parents argue that everyone in the community should be willing to watch out for the group's children, while the rest of the group argued that no one at the events or meetings in question had come there to be someone else's free babysitter. I tend to side with the latter argument-- if someone has decided to have a child, it's their responsibility and no one else's to make sure that child is safe and cared for.

            Personally, it would give me the screaming heebee jeebees to allow a child to wander someplace as big and populated as Pennsic without a trusted caretaker...but again, that's just me. So I guess I need room to be ignorant here-- I'd really like to hear why the new rule is a bad idea from the standpoint of child safety.

            Thanks for letting me be ignorant <g>,
            Azzah
          • Elewyiss the Jew
            I think parents should be responsible for their children as well. However by the age of 12-13 most children are ready to be on their own. Most are caring for
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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              I think parents should be responsible for their children as well. However by
              the age of 12-13 most children are ready to be on their own. Most are caring
              for siblings in the babysitting manner. And most can be trusted. So I see
              both sides, but I have to agree that for the most part young adults should
              be treated as such and not tied to their parents. Of course I have no
              children and go to most wars as a nanny for others, so it's just my 2
              cents.

              Elewyiss

              On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 6:56 PM, thepyratequeen <ThePyrateQueen@...>wrote:

              >
              >
              > I'm possibly speaking out of turn here, and I don't mean to offend anyone,
              > but...what is the problem with expecting parents to provide someone to look
              > out for their children? I may be coming to this from a jaded point of view;
              > I've seen disputes before from parents in the SCA who expect to bring their
              > children to events and turn them loose to be watched by the rest of their
              > shires while the parents fight and dance and whatever. The parents argue
              > that everyone in the community should be willing to watch out for the
              > group's children, while the rest of the group argued that no one at the
              > events or meetings in question had come there to be someone else's free
              > babysitter. I tend to side with the latter argument-- if someone has decided
              > to have a child, it's their responsibility and no one else's to make sure
              > that child is safe and cared for.
              >
              > Personally, it would give me the screaming heebee jeebees to allow a child
              > to wander someplace as big and populated as Pennsic without a trusted
              > caretaker...but again, that's just me. So I guess I need room to be ignorant
              > here-- I'd really like to hear why the new rule is a bad idea from the
              > standpoint of child safety.
              >
              > Thanks for letting me be ignorant <g>,
              > Azzah
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Ro'ah Chatulim


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Avacyn
              The question here is not whether 5 yr olds should wander around unattended because NO ONE wants that. The question is whether or not 15-16 yr olds should be
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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                The question here is not whether 5 yr olds should wander around
                unattended because NO ONE wants that. The question is whether or not
                15-16 yr olds should be allowed to wander around without an adult. As
                the mother of a 16 yr old (still a youth under law) I really don't want
                to hang out with him 24/7 although I do expect to know where he is and
                what he is doing at any given time. Tweens and teens should be able to
                attend classes to keep them busy without an adult present at all time.
                The alternative is for these kids to wander around without anything to
                do and that is unsafe for everyone.

                OTOH, I wouldn't want a son or daughter of any age participating in an
                activity in someone's private tent. The emphasis is on PUBLIC forums
                with other people present.
                Avacyn
                > I'm possibly speaking out of turn here, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but...what is the problem with expecting parents to provide someone to look out for their children? I may be coming to this from a jaded point of view; I've seen disputes before from parents in the SCA who expect to bring their children to events and turn them loose to be watched by the rest of their shires while the parents fight and dance and whatever. The parents argue that everyone in the community should be willing to watch out for the group's children, while the rest of the group argued that no one at the events or meetings in question had come there to be someone else's free babysitter. I tend to side with the latter argument-- if someone has decided to have a child, it's their responsibility and no one else's to make sure that child is safe and cared for.
                >
                > Personally, it would give me the screaming heebee jeebees to allow a child to wander someplace as big and populated as Pennsic without a trusted caretaker...but again, that's just me. So I guess I need room to be ignorant here-- I'd really like to hear why the new rule is a bad idea from the standpoint of child safety.
                >
                > Thanks for letting me be ignorant<g>,
                > Azzah
                >
                >
              • Catherine
                Ok, here s my .02...and remember I am new and speaking only from future plans, not experience. However, I am a single mom to three kids (currently 6, 3, and 4
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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                  Ok, here's my .02...and remember I am new and speaking only from future plans, not experience. However, I am a single mom to three kids (currently 6, 3, and 4 months). Obviously, I can't attend Pennsic at the moment, and I have no plans to until they are much older. However, one of the things that drew me to the SCA over other hobbies I could have chosen for my family (and I did purposely choose this as a family hobby, rather than just my hobby where they tag along), was the family friendliness. I have to say, I am very concerned about this ruling and where it will go in the future. As someone new, I don't have a ton invested in the SCA emotionally or financially, and if events start becoming anti-kids, you can bet my wee ones and I will be following another interest, one where they are wanted.
                  I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am very upset by this, since so far I have liked the SCA and had even started volunteering with my local canton...but I don't have the time to put in to anything that can't involve my kids FULLY.
                  Catherine

                  --- In AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com, "thepyratequeen" <ThePyrateQueen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm possibly speaking out of turn here, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but...what is the problem with expecting parents to provide someone to look out for their children? I may be coming to this from a jaded point of view; I've seen disputes before from parents in the SCA who expect to bring their children to events and turn them loose to be watched by the rest of their shires while the parents fight and dance and whatever. The parents argue that everyone in the community should be willing to watch out for the group's children, while the rest of the group argued that no one at the events or meetings in question had come there to be someone else's free babysitter. I tend to side with the latter argument-- if someone has decided to have a child, it's their responsibility and no one else's to make sure that child is safe and cared for.
                  >
                  > Personally, it would give me the screaming heebee jeebees to allow a child to wander someplace as big and populated as Pennsic without a trusted caretaker...but again, that's just me. So I guess I need room to be ignorant here-- I'd really like to hear why the new rule is a bad idea from the standpoint of child safety.
                  >
                  > Thanks for letting me be ignorant <g>,
                  > Azzah
                  >
                • S.E. Buchter
                  This is not about parents watching their children.  Children under 12 must still be accompanied by a parent or adult. The issue is the creation of a specific
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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                    This is not about parents watching their children.  Children under 12 must still be accompanied by a parent or adult. The issue is the creation of a specific and discriminatory ruling against teens that goes against the standards for the rest of Pennsic.  It is ridiculous to expect parents to sit in on a class with a 17 year old when that same teen can then go to the battle field alone and fight with rattan.These teens are legally allowed out without parents in the "real" world.  By law, 12 year olds have been deemed old enough to baby sit (re: be responsible for other human lives), but now the Pennsic staff is declaring that they can not attend classes.  Most teens who attend classes do so because they are interested and excited about a topic, not because they need baby sitting.  As a teacher, if you do not want teen in your class you have always had the option to make the class adults only. 

                    I teach calligraphy and often have a blend of teens and adults, all of whom have behaved appropriately.  I think it is unfortunate that teens will not  be able to participate without jumping through unnecessary hoops.  Not to mention, it is ridiculous to expect me as a teacher to now offer two of the same class, one for adults and one for teens, when one class used to fit the bill perfectly.  Besides, I am the same teacher, and now it is suddenly safer ?  The logic does not follow.

                    I hope this clarifies some of the outrage.

                    Ysemay

                    --- On Tue, 7/6/10, thepyratequeen <ThePyrateQueen@...> wrote:

                    From: thepyratequeen <ThePyrateQueen@...>
                    Subject: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Disastrous New Youth A&S Policy for Pennsic
                    To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 6:56 PM







                     









                    I'm possibly speaking out of turn here, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but...what is the problem with expecting parents to provide someone to look out for their children? I may be coming to this from a jaded point of view; I've seen disputes before from parents in the SCA who expect to bring their children to events and turn them loose to be watched by the rest of their shires while the parents fight and dance and whatever. The parents argue that everyone in the community should be willing to watch out for the group's children, while the rest of the group argued that no one at the events or meetings in question had come there to be someone else's free babysitter. I tend to side with the latter argument-- if someone has decided to have a child, it's their responsibility and no one else's to make sure that child is safe and cared for.



                    Personally, it would give me the screaming heebee jeebees to allow a child to wander someplace as big and populated as Pennsic without a trusted caretaker...but again, that's just me. So I guess I need room to be ignorant here-- I'd really like to hear why the new rule is a bad idea from the standpoint of child safety.



                    Thanks for letting me be ignorant <g>,

                    Azzah

























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Karen Tricomo
                    From my point of view as the A&S Officer for my Province, I see this ruling as a misdirection of a good intention.  I agree whole-heartedly that a
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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                      From my point of view as the A&S Officer for my Province, I see this ruling as a misdirection of a good intention.  I agree whole-heartedly that a parent SHOULD know where his/her kid is at all times and frankly, sometimes, certain aspects of the SCA do not offer the best influence for teen behavior...BUT, it's a good deal better than ANYthing they can get influenced by in many other supposedly "kid-friendly" places (like say, their own schools?).  Good Lord, even my then-83 yr old, worry-wort Mother was immensely relieved to learn that (on my own at age 47, attending Purgatorio outside of Reno) I'd chosen to take my chances and sleep under a table or in a borrowed corner of a storage tent AT the event, than to be in a nice, comfy hotel room down the road from the site.  Even she, who has never stopped worrying after my safety, considers the SCA worthy of her trust in that regard.

                      The fact of the matter is that in the "real" world, "youth" types don't really need constant parental supervision, so why should they at such an innocuous event as a Pennsic A&S class?  Are we saying that unless you're 18+, you really aren't capable of functioning for an hour or two on your own in society?  How do kids grow that way?  And I know for certain that I've had a kid or two attend some of the classes that we've offered and no one thought twice about any potential issues arising out of that.  The real problem from an adult/teaching point of view is that it is TOTALLY impossible to cover all the bases to keep "minors" safe from any unanticipated consequences and it's ludicrous to keep tightening the noose around the rest of us to prevent the unknown.  Not to mention the potential this thing has to affect the "rest of the barrel" (any type of class offering, anywhere) as it were ...

                      However, realizing that Pennsic is a totally different animal than most "local" SCA events, could a paperwork solution possibly work?  As in, perhaps the parents could review the class content/course description ahead of time and decide if it's suitable for their kids?  Or, in the sign-up area, couldn't there be a waiver of sorts that's there for all events that specifically have A&S class-type disclaimers to protect the SCA in general in case of a problem arising (like they do for any events that have Equestrian participation)?  OR...dare I mention this?  Anyone who will teach a class that has material kids might potentially be interested in, be required to get a background check done (as is already required for anyone in charge of Page School things)?

                      I realize that all of the above creates an inconvenience and a probably unnecessary expense (which could potentially discourage teaching in general; another bad consequence) but it sounds better to me THAT way than blatantly discouraging solo-teen involvement in classes! 
                       
                      Lady Catherine Holcombe of Arden
                      A&S Officer, Province of Southern Shores
                      Principality of the Mists, West Kingdom


                      ________________________________

                      From: thepyratequeen ThePyrateQueen@...

                      I'm possibly speaking out of turn here, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but...what is the problem with expecting parents to provide someone to look out for their children? I may be coming to this from a jaded point of view; I've seen disputes before from parents in the SCA who expect to bring their children to events and turn them loose to be watched by the rest of their shires while the parents fight and dance and whatever. The parents argue that everyone in the community should be willing to watch out for the group's children, while the rest of the group argued that no one at the events or meetings in question had come there to be someone else's free babysitter. I tend to side with the latter argument-- if someone has decided to have a child, it's their responsibility and no one else's to make sure that child is safe and cared for.

                      Personally, it would give me the screaming heebee jeebees to allow a child to wander someplace as big and populated as Pennsic without a trusted caretaker...but again, that's just me. So I guess I need room to be ignorant here-- I'd really like to hear why the new rule is a bad idea from the standpoint of child safety.

                      Thanks for letting me be ignorant <g>,
                      Azzah

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Honour Horne-Jaruk
                      ... Should it do so, I will leave the SCA forever. So will many, many other experienced, long-time (36 years in my case) members. Without children Pennsic--
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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                        Respected friends:
                        --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Johnna Holloway <johnnae@...> wrote:

                        > I suspect the big fear among parents and families is that the next
                        > step will be that Pennsic will become Adults only or age 18 and above
                        > only which would eliminate all the
                        > questions and problems regarding youngsters, children,
                        > teens, youth, etc.
                        > And maybe this is where the event needs to go for legal or
                        > insurance reasons.
                        >
                        > Johnnae

                        Should it do so, I will leave the SCA forever. So will many, many other experienced, long-time (36 years in my case) members. Without children Pennsic-- and most of the SCA-- is a costumed cocktail party and we should all go home and stop wasting gas and money.

                        Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-
                        (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
                        (Mistress) Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict

                        FORTE EST VINUM, FORTIOR EST REX, FORTIORES SUNT MULIERES: SUPER OMNIA VINCIT VERITAS
                      • AlbredaA@aol.com
                        In a message dated 7/6/2010 8:06:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jarukcomp@yahoo.com writes: Without children Pennsic-- and most of the SCA-- is a costumed
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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                          In a message dated 7/6/2010 8:06:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                          jarukcomp@... writes:

                          "Without children Pennsic-- and most of the SCA-- is a costumed cocktail
                          party and we should all go home and stop wasting gas and money."

                          How many of Silverwing's Laws are there at present?

                          I think we need to add a number to that list... >:)

                          Well said, Mistress.

                          Albreda




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Karen Tricomo
                          I heartily agree!!!!  By their very existence, children ARE the future (of anything)!  Our generation s not going to last forever, after all, and I d HATE to
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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                            I heartily agree!!!!  By their very existence, children ARE the future (of anything)!  Our generation's not going to last forever, after all, and I'd HATE to see the SCA die out.
                            I personally am sick to DEATH of continuously hearing of folks being forced to comply with unreasonable restrictions to cover the whims of a sue-happy world.  It's wrong on SO many levels...

                            Catherine Holcombe




                            ________________________________
                             
                            In a message dated 7/6/2010 8:06:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                            jarukcomp@... writes:

                            "Without children Pennsic-- and most of the SCA-- is a costumed cocktail
                            party and we should all go home and stop wasting gas and money."

                            How many of Silverwing's Laws are there at present?

                            I think we need to add a number to that list... >:)

                            Well said, Mistress.

                            Albreda


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John Harling
                            I personally believe there should be better policing of adults at events. I know there are some within SCA that have preyed upon our youth. That is where the
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jul 6, 2010
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                              I personally believe there should be better policing of adults at events. I know there are some within SCA that have preyed upon our youth. That is where the danger lies.

                              Penda

                              may you never thirst

                              --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Karen Tricomo <piccolopwr@...> wrote:

                              From: Karen Tricomo <piccolopwr@...>
                              Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Disastrous New Youth A&S Policy for Pennsic
                              To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 8:21 PM







                               









                              I heartily agree!!!!  By their very existence, children ARE the future (of anything)!  Our generation's not going to last forever, after all, and I'd HATE to see the SCA die out.

                              I personally am sick to DEATH of continuously hearing of folks being forced to comply with unreasonable restrictions to cover the whims of a sue-happy world.  It's wrong on SO many levels...



                              Catherine Holcombe



                              ________________________________

                               

                              In a message dated 7/6/2010 8:06:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                              jarukcomp@... writes:



                              "Without children Pennsic-- and most of the SCA-- is a costumed cocktail

                              party and we should all go home and stop wasting gas and money."



                              How many of Silverwing's Laws are there at present?



                              I think we need to add a number to that list... >:)



                              Well said, Mistress.



                              Albreda



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Nest verch Tangwistel
                              The first event my 16 year old daughter ever went to was Pennsic. She stayed with me most of the time, but every morning she was taking a class on Viking
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jul 7, 2010
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                                The first event my 16 year old daughter ever went to was Pennsic. She stayed with me most of the time, but every morning she was taking a class on Viking embroidery(it was a multiday class). Walking down to the A&S tents and sitting through the class was pretty much the only place she went alone that first year, and the only place she and I did not think twice about safety. I would hate to see that step into independence thwarted in other children because of this rule. I really can't imagine anyplace safer at Pennsic.
                                 
                                Nest

                                --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Avacyn <avacyn@...> wrote:


                                From: Avacyn <avacyn@...>
                                Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Re: Disastrous New Youth A&S Policy for Pennsic
                                To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 7:01 PM


                                  The question here is not whether 5 yr olds should wander around
                                unattended because NO ONE wants that.  The question is whether or not
                                15-16 yr olds should be allowed to wander around without an adult.  As
                                the mother of a 16 yr old (still a youth under law) I really don't want
                                to hang out with him 24/7 although I do expect to know where he is and
                                what he is doing at any given time.  Tweens and teens should be able to
                                attend classes to keep them busy without an adult present at all time. 
                                The alternative is for these kids to wander around without anything to
                                do and that is unsafe for everyone.

                                OTOH, I wouldn't want a son or daughter of any age participating in an
                                activity in someone's private tent.  The emphasis is on PUBLIC forums
                                with other people present.
                                Avacyn
                                > I'm possibly speaking out of turn here, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but...what is the problem with expecting parents to provide someone to look out for their children?  I may be coming to this from a jaded point of view; I've seen disputes before from parents in the SCA who expect to bring their children to events and turn them loose to be watched by the rest of their shires while the parents fight and dance and whatever.  The parents argue that everyone in the community should be willing to watch out for the group's children, while the rest of the group argued that no one at the events or meetings in question had come there to be someone else's free babysitter.  I tend to side with the latter argument-- if someone has decided to have a child, it's their responsibility and no one else's to make sure that child is safe and cared for.
                                >
                                > Personally, it would give me the screaming heebee jeebees to allow a child to wander someplace as big and populated as Pennsic without a trusted caretaker...but again, that's just me.  So I guess I need room to be ignorant here-- I'd really like to hear why the new rule is a bad idea from the standpoint of child safety.
                                >
                                > Thanks for letting me be ignorant<g>,
                                > Azzah
                                >
                                >



                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links








                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Amy Shuman
                                Good gentles all, As a married, childless, 40-something I am very aware of how many of us there are out here and it s more than you think. Policy changes in
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jul 7, 2010
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                                  Good gentles all,
                                  As a married, childless, 40-something I am very aware of how many of us there are out here and it's more than you think. Policy changes in the SCA all the time for good or for bad. Should Pennsic move to an 18+ only event it wont kill the event any more than some of the recent rulings have significantly diminished SCA attendance. In this age of blended and extended family the ‘family membership’ change from ‘everyone under the same roof’ to ‘two adults plus as many children under 18 as you like’ did not significantly diminish the number of paid memberships. The recent increase in non-member surcharge from 3 to 5 dollars will only force groups to become more creative in their event pricing structure. The convention of ‘children under X teen age are free’ will likely become more prominent.
                                  In the last 25 years I have watched an amazing amount of change in the SCA.
                                  Lets look at those numbers again; 39 years of Pennsics (and the first 20 or so included fewer families with children than we have 35+ without children now), this list is working on art projects to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Society.
                                  The organization WILL continue. Pennsic WILL continue. In my experience what keeps people around or convinces them to leave has more to do with the people with whom they interact and the experiences they have in the society than it has to do with policy or even money. Emphasizing the Victorian ideal of chivalry and honor will go farther towards attendance and retention than anything else.

                                  Just my considered thoughts.
                                  Aelfwyn
                                • Kelly Grant
                                  Thank you so much for this Aelfwyn! I have been deleting for two days because the argument has, in some cases, gotten seriously out of hand. There are ways
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 7, 2010
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                                    Thank you so much for this Aelfwyn!

                                    I have been deleting for two days because the argument has, in some cases, gotten seriously out of hand.

                                    There are ways this could be worked for the benefit of all involved. First off, how many Parent/Teens are going to actually be effected by this policy this year? I think it should be up to them to sit down with the staff involved to come up with a solution.

                                    The rest of us really shouldn't be sticking our noses in where we aren't really involved.

                                    We can figure out how to make things work for everyone involved, or we can sit around and belly-ache about how the society isn't the same as it was in the good ol' days. Hate to break it to people by Society has changed. We can either be part of the solution or continue to just see the problems.

                                    Estela, who really has A&S 50 projects to work on and needs to be able to leave her computer for a couple of days!


                                    > The organization WILL continue. Pennsic WILL continue. In my experience what keeps people around or convinces them to leave has more to do with the people with whom they interact and the experiences they have in the society than it has to do with policy or even money. Emphasizing the Victorian ideal of chivalry and honor will go farther towards attendance and retention than anything else.
                                    >
                                    > Just my considered thoughts.
                                    > Aelfwyn


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                                  • Kevin McLaughlin
                                    I m all for being part of the solution! I confess to being a bit confused about how to accomplish that, right now. =/ This decision was snuck in quietly, too
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jul 7, 2010
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                                      I'm all for being part of the solution!

                                      I confess to being a bit confused about how to accomplish that, right now.
                                      =/

                                      This decision was snuck in quietly, too late for people to cancel their
                                      pre-reg, and in a way that honestly, most families won't even *know* about
                                      it until they arrive. To make matters worse, we don't know why the decision
                                      was made, and the folks who made the decision (Ardenia, Society & Pennsic
                                      youth minister, and Master John, Pennsic Mayor this year) won't let folks
                                      know why.

                                      I wish I could be part of the solution. I have offered to help brainstorm a
                                      new solution that would not bar our youth from A&S. The only solution I had
                                      left was to get the word out, and hope enough letters were sent that someone
                                      would listen. They did - the rule has been changed from "must have a
                                      parent/legal guardian" to "must have an adult" with a child/teen to attend a
                                      class. I think it's a big improvement, but it's not going to really reduce
                                      the anger and frustration parents will feel when they hear about this for
                                      the first time at Pennsic.

                                      It's not going to be enough to allow most teens to experience the education
                                      of classes at Pennsic this year.

                                      This just seems so wrong to me on so many levels. =( But I'm sorry if I've
                                      inconvenienced folks by bringing this up.

                                      Owyn


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                                    • Verena Entenwirt
                                      I m all for being part of the solution! I confess to being a bit confused about how to accomplish that, right now. =/ Offer to take one of the
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jul 7, 2010
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                                        <snip>I'm all for being part of the solution!

                                        I confess to being a bit confused about how to accomplish that, right now.
                                        =/ <end snip>

                                        Offer to take one of the teens in your camp to a class- Not only will you
                                        help with the solution, but you might find yourself enjoying or learning
                                        something new.

                                        Nothing in the rules says you have to participate in the class, you just
                                        have to be there. For instance we will have a 13 year old young gentlemen in
                                        our camp- if he chooses to go to a class, I would be more then willing to go
                                        with him and either sit in the back spinning or take the class with him. IMO
                                        it is a win win situation


                                        Lady Verena Entenwirth
                                        www.broomstich.com


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                                      • Amy Shuman
                                        Lady Verena, Thank you so much for providing such a possitive and productive suggestion. It s good to see that there are vocal people who can not only step
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jul 7, 2010
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                                          Lady Verena,
                                          Thank you so much for providing such a possitive and productive suggestion. It's good to see that there are vocal people who can not only step away from the problem but also make that step towards a solution. I will take your example to heart and do my best to learn from it.

                                          Lady Aelfwyn Elswith of the Confraternity of St. Eve

                                          > Offer to take one of the teens in your camp to a class- Not
                                          > only will you
                                          > help with the solution, but you might find yourself
                                          > enjoying or learning
                                          > something new.
                                          >
                                          > Lady Verena Entenwirth
                                          > www.broomstich.com
                                        • AlbredaA@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 7/7/2010 11:55:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, amykshuman@yahoo.com writes: Lady Verena, Thank you so much for providing such a possitive
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jul 7, 2010
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                                            In a message dated 7/7/2010 11:55:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                            amykshuman@... writes:

                                            "Lady Verena,
                                            Thank you so much for providing such a possitive and productive
                                            suggestion. It's good to see that there are vocal people who can not only step away
                                            from the problem but also make that step towards a solution. I will take
                                            your example to heart and do my best to learn from it.

                                            Lady Aelfwyn Elswith of the Confraternity of St. Eve

                                            > Offer to take one of the teens in your camp to a class- Not
                                            > only will you
                                            > help with the solution, but you might find yourself
                                            > enjoying or learning
                                            > something new.
                                            >
                                            > Lady Verena Entenwirth
                                            > www.broomstich.com"
                                            I agree that this is a good way to work with the current rule, but that
                                            does not change the fact that the rule undermines the appropriate development
                                            of teens' autonomy, and their ability to actively and freely participate in
                                            appropriate ways in the SCA *under their own agency*.

                                            Were I going to War this year, and had childcare, I'd be delighted to
                                            accompany a teen to classes, esp since I don't think we are going to see a
                                            reversal of the ruling in time for this War. That doesn't mean that we need
                                            this rule.

                                            I agree that Pensic and the SCA would continue without youth and families,
                                            but it wouldn't be the same, and, while I might miss some of the folks that
                                            would still attend, I very likely would be among those that did not.

                                            Albreda, not really enjoying today very much at all




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