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Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Digest Number 700

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  • Vicki Hyde
    ... Yep, that s the one. Dickon ended up with a very nice green version of it, but grew out of it within a year -- a continuing problem with fitted clothing
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 30, 2009
      > Hugh:
      > > What this one?
      > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WalterRaleighandson.jpg
      > > The lad has good taste. :D

      Yep, that's the one. Dickon ended up with a very nice green version
      of it, but grew out of it within a year -- a continuing problem with
      fitted clothing sadly. It passed down to his sister so got a bit more
      wear.

      > Depends on the era/status... Of course, I'm not finding it now,
      > but I've seen a portrait from the latter part of the 1500s of a
      > little girl (maybe 2 or so) wearing a typically Elizabethan, i.e.
      > hugely elaborate, gown fit for a noble lady- which in fact she was.

      That sounds like Arbella Stuart, Bess of Hardwick's granddaughter.

      http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3574/3387208489_8e9d5bff2d.jpg

      Yes, my girl looked hard at that when we went to Hardwick Hall (she
      was 7 at the time)...but I'm not a garb person. Dickon only got his
      doublet as a thank you from Mistress Marienna for being so useful in
      keeping an eye on other people's kids; now I'm hoping to swing a
      similar deal for Grace, seeing she has got to the point where fitted
      garb is more a necessity than a luxury.... :-).

      > And there's another portrait of a young man and his little brother
      > (1580s-90s IIRC, again, can't find it offhand)- both in fashionable
      > black doublets, of a similar cut, but the younger (maybe 5 or so)
      > has not been breeched yet and is wearing skirts with his otherwise
      > masculine attire.

      That'll be Darnley and his brother Charles Stewart (1560s):

      http://www.shafe.co.uk/crystal/images/lshafe/Eworth_Lord_Darnley_and_C
      harles_Stewart_1563.jpg

      Dickon and Pippin had similar black outfits when they were smaller --
      they ended up looking like the Princes in the Tower. One was a cut-
      down 1970s velvet coat; the other an adapted Highland band jacket
      (which oddly enough, their sister now wears mudanely as a bolero
      jacket).

      Course what happens is you make/acquire a batch of clothing for them
      and then, at the end of the multi-day encampment you find all their
      clothes neatly folded in their bags and realise with dawning horror
      that it's not because they have packed it away nicely, it's because
      they've spent four days in the same garb. Argh!

      I did have one lady ask me if wearing food was period, looking
      pointedly at Pippin...

      Ah, those were the days (having hit teenage-hood, the boys at least
      no longer want to be seen with their parents wearing funny clothing,
      *sigh*).

      Cheers,
      katherine




      =====================================
      katherine kerr of the Hermitage, in the Crescent Isles,
      Barony of Southron Gaard, Kingdom of Lochac
      mka Vicki Hyde, Webwright, wordsmith
      bardic arts, maps, children: http://webcentre.co.nz/kk
      Barony of Southron Gaard: http://sg.sca.org.nz
    • Ann Franchi
      This thread seems to imply that a squire can only be raised by a knight. In Trimaris, the actual knighting is done by the King. As each Crown sets the
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
        This thread seems to imply that a squire can only be raised by a knight.

        In Trimaris, the actual knighting is done by the King.

        As each Crown sets the requirements for entry into Crown List, it is
        entirely possible that the Reigning King is not and has never been a
        Knight. Yet he is able to Knight someone.

        How would this affect your project?

        Anitra

        On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Addie <countessaddie@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Jadwiga - I don't know if it helps, but here is my hubby's as far back as I
        > am aware of it. It might help fill in some of your blanks. But this is a
        > lineage by reckoning of fealty relationship not who knighted whom.
        >
        > Duke Akbar ibn Murad al-ben ibn Hakim -knighted on April 26th, 1970, by the
        > Eastern King Alpin the MacGregor)
        >
        > Count Murad nasl Muhammed ibn Hakim knighted July 26th, 1970, by his son,
        > King Akbar.)
        >
        > Sir Ishmael ibn Murad al-ben Mohammed nasil Hakim knighted on August 11th,
        > 1975 in the Middle Kingdom by ________
        >
        > Duke Michael of Bedford, knighted by King Gavin Kilkeny of the East Realm
        >
        > Duke Olaf Askoldssonn, knighted on March 26th, 1983 by King Jahn of Outman
        > -
        > Atlantia.
        >
        > Sir Forgal Kersetter, knighted on April 4th, by King Klaus von Trollenburg
        > - Atlantia
        >
        > Jarl Timmekke Haakonson of Nordheim, knighted on October 3, 1992, by King
        > Steffan - Atlantia
        >
        > I don't know if Akbar was squired to anyone - I can't find that information
        > on line.
        >
        > But by your reckoning it would go
        >
        > Timoch was knighted by Steffan (Atlantia)
        >
        > Steffan was knighted by Richard Fitzgilbert (Atlantia)
        >
        > Richard was knighted by Jahn of Outman (Atlantia)
        >
        > Jahn was knighted by Dagan (Middle)
        >
        > Dagan was knighted by Merowald (Middle) (I got the following from the
        > Calontir Archives)
        >
        > Merowald was knighted by Irial (Middle)
        >
        > Irial was knighted by Cariadoc of the Bow (Middle)
        >
        > Cariadoc was knighted by Siefried von Hoflihkeit
        >
        > Siefried was knighted by William the Silent
        >
        > William was knighted by Henrick of Havn
        >
        > Then I could add.
        >
        > Timoch knighted Prothal Wolfsbane in Drachenwald
        >
        > Prothal knighted Matthew Blackleaf and Edmund of Oakcastle
        >
        > Matthew knighted Rian McFinn
        >
        > Matthew knighted Franz von Hohenklingen
        >
        > All of these are Drachenwald.
        >
        > OK. You just got me to spend several hours doing research into this
        > project. I can't wait to see the completion of it
        >
        > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
        > Messages in this topic (6)
        > 2.
        > Please -
        > Posted by: "Carrot Khan" carrot.khan@ <mailto:carrot.khan%40gmail.com<carrot.khan%2540gmail.com>
        > >
        > gmail.com carolinepolli
        > Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:57 am (PST)
        >
        > I appreciate all the help that anyone has already given me by forwarding on
        > the file that I posted. Before I get yet another link to Whitebelt.com and
        > being told the project is already done so I don't have to do it again,
        > please be aware that I'm NOT doing an OP listing, I'm doing a genealogy. I
        > have yet to find a link on his Excellency's page that shows a genealogy. If
        > I'm missing it some how, please let me know
        >
        > For example - Siegfried van Hoflichskeit knighted Cariadoc of the Bow who
        > knighted Franz von Blichen-Lichten who knighted Andrew of Seldom Rest who
        > knighted Fuyuzuru Tadashi who knighted David Martin Failsworth.. ...and so
        > it
        > goes on to eternity. This is a different project with the same
        > information. There are five lineages of knights, only five of the original
        > twelve knights bestowed the accolade on anyone. It is that lineage that I'm
        > tracing.
        >
        > Jadwiga
        >
        > .
        >
        > <
        > http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=20801058/grpspId=1705126283/msgI
        > d=5934/stime=1262173419/nc1=3848621/nc2=4025291/nc3=5658247>
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >



        --
        "Some people weave burlap into the fabric of our lives, and some weave gold
        thread. Both contribute to make the whole picture beautiful and unique."
        Anonymous


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Carrot Khan
        ... I suppose it would depend on whether or not a King who is not a knight still holds the sword for the accolade. In the Middle, if the King has not been
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
          >
          > How would this affect your project?
          >
          > Anitra
          >

          I suppose it would depend on whether or not a King who is not a knight still
          holds the sword for the accolade. In the Middle, if the King has not been
          knighted, someone else holds the sword/gives the accolade during the
          ceremony, thus a knight has made a knight.

          Does Trimaris have the king give the accolade whether or not he's been
          knighted?

          Jadwiga


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Addie
          In the case of the listings I gave Jadwiga all of the Kings were knights at the time of the elevation so where I said Timoch was knighted by Steffan - I guess
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
            In the case of the listings I gave Jadwiga all of the Kings were knights at
            the time of the elevation so where I said Timoch was knighted by Steffan -
            I guess I should have said King (Sir) Steffan. Had the Kings not been
            knights, then another knight would have done the actual dubbing, with the
            King beside him/her. The tradition is that only a knight can make another
            knight. We have had Kings that were not Knights in the past. And while the
            King is the one who decides that the person will be elevated, if he is not a
            member of the Chivalry, then a Knight steps in to dub them Knight - he King
            does the rest.

            :-)

            Addie







            _____

            From: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ann Franchi
            Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 1:05 PM
            To: AandS50ChallengeCommunity@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [AandS50ChallengeCommunity] Knight project





            This thread seems to imply that a squire can only be raised by a knight.

            In Trimaris, the actual knighting is done by the King.

            As each Crown sets the requirements for entry into Crown List, it is
            entirely possible that the Reigning King is not and has never been a
            Knight. Yet he is able to Knight someone.

            How would this affect your project?

            Anitra

            On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Addie <countessaddie@
            <mailto:countessaddie%40verizon.net> verizon.net> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Jadwiga - I don't know if it helps, but here is my hubby's as far back as
            I
            > am aware of it. It might help fill in some of your blanks. But this is a
            > lineage by reckoning of fealty relationship not who knighted whom.
            >
            > Duke Akbar ibn Murad al-ben ibn Hakim -knighted on April 26th, 1970, by
            the
            > Eastern King Alpin the MacGregor)
            >
            > Count Murad nasl Muhammed ibn Hakim knighted July 26th, 1970, by his son,
            > King Akbar.)
            >
            > Sir Ishmael ibn Murad al-ben Mohammed nasil Hakim knighted on August 11th,
            > 1975 in the Middle Kingdom by ________
            >
            > Duke Michael of Bedford, knighted by King Gavin Kilkeny of the East Realm
            >
            > Duke Olaf Askoldssonn, knighted on March 26th, 1983 by King Jahn of Outman
            > -
            > Atlantia.
            >
            > Sir Forgal Kersetter, knighted on April 4th, by King Klaus von Trollenburg
            > - Atlantia
            >
            > Jarl Timmekke Haakonson of Nordheim, knighted on October 3, 1992, by King
            > Steffan - Atlantia
            >
            > I don't know if Akbar was squired to anyone - I can't find that
            information
            > on line.
            >
            > But by your reckoning it would go
            >
            > Timoch was knighted by Steffan (Atlantia)
            >
            > Steffan was knighted by Richard Fitzgilbert (Atlantia)
            >
            > Richard was knighted by Jahn of Outman (Atlantia)
            >
            > Jahn was knighted by Dagan (Middle)
            >
            > Dagan was knighted by Merowald (Middle) (I got the following from the
            > Calontir Archives)
            >
            > Merowald was knighted by Irial (Middle)
            >
            > Irial was knighted by Cariadoc of the Bow (Middle)
            >
            > Cariadoc was knighted by Siefried von Hoflihkeit
            >
            > Siefried was knighted by William the Silent
            >
            > William was knighted by Henrick of Havn
            >
            > Then I could add.
            >
            > Timoch knighted Prothal Wolfsbane in Drachenwald
            >
            > Prothal knighted Matthew Blackleaf and Edmund of Oakcastle
            >
            > Matthew knighted Rian McFinn
            >
            > Matthew knighted Franz von Hohenklingen
            >
            > All of these are Drachenwald.
            >
            > OK. You just got me to spend several hours doing research into this
            > project. I can't wait to see the completion of it
            >
            > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
            > Messages in this topic (6)
            > 2.
            > Please -
            > Posted by: "Carrot Khan" carrot.khan@
            <mailto:carrot.khan%40gmail.com<carrot.khan%2540gmail.com>
            > >
            > gmail.com carolinepolli
            > Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:57 am (PST)
            >
            > I appreciate all the help that anyone has already given me by forwarding
            on
            > the file that I posted. Before I get yet another link to Whitebelt.com and
            > being told the project is already done so I don't have to do it again,
            > please be aware that I'm NOT doing an OP listing, I'm doing a genealogy. I
            > have yet to find a link on his Excellency's page that shows a genealogy.
            If
            > I'm missing it some how, please let me know
            >
            > For example - Siegfried van Hoflichskeit knighted Cariadoc of the Bow who
            > knighted Franz von Blichen-Lichten who knighted Andrew of Seldom Rest who
            > knighted Fuyuzuru Tadashi who knighted David Martin Failsworth.. ...and so
            > it
            > goes on to eternity. This is a different project with the same
            > information. There are five lineages of knights, only five of the original
            > twelve knights bestowed the accolade on anyone. It is that lineage that
            I'm
            > tracing.
            >
            > Jadwiga
            >
            > .
            >
            > <
            > http://geo.yahoo
            <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=20801058/grpspId=1705126283/msgI
            > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=20801058/grpspId=1705126283/msgI
            > d=5934/stime=1262173419/nc1=3848621/nc2=4025291/nc3=5658247>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >

            --
            "Some people weave burlap into the fabric of our lives, and some weave gold
            thread. Both contribute to make the whole picture beautiful and unique."
            Anonymous

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Baroness Bianca the Inquisitive
            Actually, it has been my experience that in the event a King was not a knight...and a fighter was approved for knighthood by the chiv, that the King would
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
              Actually, it has been my experience that in the event a King was not a
              knight...and a fighter was approved for knighthood by the chiv, that the
              King would perform the ceremony, but the actual buffet is delivered by a
              knight. Thus, only a knight can make a knight.... One exception to that
              was the second King of the Society (I think his name was Ryan?) created a
              knight while he was on the throne and was not a knight himself. So, yes,
              the Crown can present the title, but only a knight can actually give the
              accolade.

              I'm sure this may vary from Kingdom to Kingdom, and I'm not sure if it's a
              Society

              Did that make sense?

              However, I'm a tad confused by the project...are you interested in who was
              on the throne when the knight was dubbed...or who actually delivered the
              buffet, or who the knight was squired to?

              My husband, for example, is Sir Mandin - he was squired to Duke (Sir) Olaf
              in Atlantia, the fostered to Count (Sir) Gunther in Meridies, and was dubbed
              by His Majesty, Sir Caspar, in Meridies.

              An interesting thing to note is that it is the King's perogative to choose
              whomever he pleases to become a knight...even if the chiv circle has not
              approved that candidate. This is true for all orders. While it is Strongly
              preferred that the order approves, it ulimately is up to the King.

              Also, we should remember that not everyone that becomes a knight was a
              squire.

              This is an interesting thread....

              In service,
              Baroness Bianca

              On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Ann Franchi <AnitraF@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > This thread seems to imply that a squire can only be raised by a knight.
              >
              > In Trimaris, the actual knighting is done by the King.
              >
              > As each Crown sets the requirements for entry into Crown List, it is
              > entirely possible that the Reigning King is not and has never been a
              > Knight. Yet he is able to Knight someone.
              >
              > How would this affect your project?
              >
              > Anitra
              >
              >


              --
              Letalior Specierum! - (You wish you hit like a girl!)


              "Having heard all this you may turn away, but you can never say again you
              did not know." William Wilberforce


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Elizabeth Bair
              That s the way it is done in Trimaris as well. A Trimarian king who is not a knight may perform portions of the ceremony and may bestow the Patent of Arms
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
                That's the way it is done in Trimaris as well. A Trimarian king who is not
                a knight may perform portions of the ceremony and may bestow the Patent of
                Arms that accompanies induction in the Order of Chivalry, but a Knight steps
                in and performs the actual dubbing and/or buffet. We have not had that
                situation occur in a long time, mostly because we haven't had a non-knight
                win Crown Tourney in the a long time. When a non-knight has sat the throne
                the Order of Chivalry in Trimaris generally waits to recommend elevation
                during the next reign, if/when a knight will be on the Throne.

                To answer the second question, a Trimarian king who is not already a knight
                is not granted knighthood on the basis of being king. We've had a number of
                instances where former kings were knighted after, sometimes years after,
                stepping down from the throne. We also have one former king who was never
                knighted.

                Dulcia

                Countess Dulcia MacPherson, OL OR (Trimaris)

                On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Baroness Bianca the Inquisitive <
                biancatheinquisitive@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > Actually, it has been my experience that in the event a King was not a
                > knight...and a fighter was approved for knighthood by the chiv, that the
                > King would perform the ceremony, but the actual buffet is delivered by a
                > knight. Thus, only a knight can make a knight.... One exception to that
                > was the second King of the Society (I think his name was Ryan?) created a
                > knight while he was on the throne and was not a knight himself. So, yes,
                > the Crown can present the title, but only a knight can actually give the
                > accolade.
                >
                > I'm sure this may vary from Kingdom to Kingdom, and I'm not sure if it's a
                > Society
                >
                > Did that make sense?
                >
                > However, I'm a tad confused by the project...are you interested in who was
                > on the throne when the knight was dubbed...or who actually delivered the
                > buffet, or who the knight was squired to?
                >
                > My husband, for example, is Sir Mandin - he was squired to Duke (Sir) Olaf
                > in Atlantia, the fostered to Count (Sir) Gunther in Meridies, and was
                > dubbed
                > by His Majesty, Sir Caspar, in Meridies.
                >
                > An interesting thing to note is that it is the King's perogative to choose
                > whomever he pleases to become a knight...even if the chiv circle has not
                > approved that candidate. This is true for all orders. While it is Strongly
                > preferred that the order approves, it ulimately is up to the King.
                >
                > Also, we should remember that not everyone that becomes a knight was a
                > squire.
                >
                > This is an interesting thread....
                >
                > In service,
                > Baroness Bianca
                >
                >
                > On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Ann Franchi <AnitraF@...<AnitraF%40gmail.com>>
                > wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > This thread seems to imply that a squire can only be raised by a knight.
                > >
                > > In Trimaris, the actual knighting is done by the King.
                > >
                > > As each Crown sets the requirements for entry into Crown List, it is
                > > entirely possible that the Reigning King is not and has never been a
                > > Knight. Yet he is able to Knight someone.
                > >
                > > How would this affect your project?
                > >
                > > Anitra
                > >
                > >
                >
                > --
                > Letalior Specierum! - (You wish you hit like a girl!)
                >
                > "Having heard all this you may turn away, but you can never say again you
                > did not know." William Wilberforce
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >



                --
                "Deus solum perfectus est" - Only God is perfect.

                "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; but everyone is not entitled to
                their own facts."--Daniel Patrick Moynihan


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Carrot Khan
                ... on the throne when the knight was dubbed...or who actually delivered the buffet, or who the knight was squired to? I am interested only in the buffet. It
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
                  >However, I'm a tad confused by the project...are you interested in who was
                  on the throne when the knight was dubbed...or who actually delivered the
                  buffet, or who the knight was squired to?

                  I am interested only in the buffet. It would solve the issue of confusing
                  the lineage were the king not a knight and someone else held the sword.

                  Jadwiga


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ted Eisenstein
                  ... The ceremony is led by the Crown; is the actual dubbing, the laying on of the sword, done by just the Crown even if not a knight, or is a knight handling
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
                    >This thread seems to imply that a squire can only be raised by a knight.
                    >
                    >In Trimaris, the actual knighting is done by the King.

                    The ceremony is led by the Crown; is the actual dubbing, the laying on
                    of the sword, done by just the Crown even if not a knight, or is a knight
                    handling the sword in addition to the knightless Crown?

                    Alban
                  • Lia de Thornegge
                    Greetings all, This may be an area rife with Inter Kingdom Anthropology, so I speak only for Drachenwald, where I live. There have been Kings that were not
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 23, 2010
                      Greetings all,

                      This may be an area rife with Inter Kingdom Anthropology, so I speak
                      only for Drachenwald, where I live.

                      There have been Kings that were not knights who performed the ceremony
                      to dub a new knight. In those cases all things in the ceremony was
                      handled by the King and Queen as customary, except the laying on of
                      the sword, at which point a knight has stepped up and held the sword
                      along with the King.

                      I have been present at two such occasions.

                      In service,
                      Lia

                      -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~
                      Lady Lia de Thornegge
                      Website - http://hem.bredband.net/LiaThornegge/ ||<>|| Projects Diary
                      - http://liadethornegge.livejournal.com/
                      Shire of Aros (Uppsala), Principality of Nordmark (Sweden), Kingdom of
                      Drachenwald
                      -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~



                      On 23 January 2010 03:34, Ted Eisenstein <alban@...> wrote:
                      >>This thread seems to imply that a squire can only be raised by a knight.
                      >>
                      >>In Trimaris, the actual knighting is done by the King.
                      >
                      > The ceremony is led by the Crown; is the actual dubbing, the laying on
                      > of the sword, done by just the Crown even if not a knight, or is a knight
                      > handling the sword in addition to the knightless Crown?
                      >
                      > Alban
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Sara L Uckelman
                      ... Interesting! This is definitely IKA; in the kingdoms that I ve lived in, when the King was not himself a knight, he needed a knight to stand beside him
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 23, 2010
                        Quoth Ann Franchi:
                        > As each Crown sets the requirements for entry into Crown List, it is
                        > entirely possible that the Reigning King is not and has never been a
                        > Knight. Yet he is able to Knight someone.

                        Interesting! This is definitely IKA; in the kingdoms that I've
                        lived in, when the King was not himself a knight, he needed
                        a knight to stand beside him with his hands on the sword as well
                        as the king, during the dubbing, for it to be a real knighting.

                        -Aryanhwy


                        --
                        vita sine literis mors est
                        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                      • Ann Franchi
                        Actually, I ll need to check into this. I ll get back with you ... Anitra ... -- Some people weave burlap into the fabric of our lives, and some weave gold
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 24, 2010
                          Actually, I'll need to check into this.

                          I'll get back with you ...

                          Anitra

                          On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Carrot Khan <carrot.khan@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > How would this affect your project?
                          > >
                          > > Anitra
                          > >
                          >
                          > I suppose it would depend on whether or not a King who is not a knight
                          > still
                          > holds the sword for the accolade. In the Middle, if the King has not been
                          > knighted, someone else holds the sword/gives the accolade during the
                          > ceremony, thus a knight has made a knight.
                          >
                          > Does Trimaris have the king give the accolade whether or not he's been
                          > knighted?
                          >
                          > Jadwiga
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          "Some people weave burlap into the fabric of our lives, and some weave gold
                          thread. Both contribute to make the whole picture beautiful and unique."
                          Anonymous


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ann Franchi
                          Thank you, Your Excellency! That is exactly the information I needed! Anitra ... -- Some people weave burlap into the fabric of our lives, and some weave gold
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 24, 2010
                            Thank you, Your Excellency!

                            That is exactly the information I needed!

                            Anitra

                            On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Elizabeth Bair <countessdulcia@...>wrote:

                            > That's the way it is done in Trimaris as well. A Trimarian king who is not
                            > a knight may perform portions of the ceremony and may bestow the Patent of
                            > Arms that accompanies induction in the Order of Chivalry, but a Knight
                            > steps
                            > in and performs the actual dubbing and/or buffet. We have not had that
                            > situation occur in a long time, mostly because we haven't had a non-knight
                            > win Crown Tourney in the a long time. When a non-knight has sat the throne
                            > the Order of Chivalry in Trimaris generally waits to recommend elevation
                            > during the next reign, if/when a knight will be on the Throne.
                            >
                            > To answer the second question, a Trimarian king who is not already a knight
                            > is not granted knighthood on the basis of being king. We've had a number
                            > of
                            > instances where former kings were knighted after, sometimes years after,
                            > stepping down from the throne. We also have one former king who was never
                            > knighted.
                            >
                            > Dulcia
                            >
                            > Countess Dulcia MacPherson, OL OR (Trimaris)
                            >
                            > On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Baroness Bianca the Inquisitive <
                            > biancatheinquisitive@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Actually, it has been my experience that in the event a King was not a
                            > > knight...and a fighter was approved for knighthood by the chiv, that the
                            > > King would perform the ceremony, but the actual buffet is delivered by a
                            > > knight. Thus, only a knight can make a knight.... One exception to that
                            > > was the second King of the Society (I think his name was Ryan?) created a
                            > > knight while he was on the throne and was not a knight himself. So, yes,
                            > > the Crown can present the title, but only a knight can actually give the
                            > > accolade.
                            > >
                            > > I'm sure this may vary from Kingdom to Kingdom, and I'm not sure if it's
                            > a
                            > > Society
                            > >
                            > > Did that make sense?
                            > >
                            > > However, I'm a tad confused by the project...are you interested in who
                            > was
                            > > on the throne when the knight was dubbed...or who actually delivered the
                            > > buffet, or who the knight was squired to?
                            > >
                            > > My husband, for example, is Sir Mandin - he was squired to Duke (Sir)
                            > Olaf
                            > > in Atlantia, the fostered to Count (Sir) Gunther in Meridies, and was
                            > > dubbed
                            > > by His Majesty, Sir Caspar, in Meridies.
                            > >
                            > > An interesting thing to note is that it is the King's perogative to
                            > choose
                            > > whomever he pleases to become a knight...even if the chiv circle has not
                            > > approved that candidate. This is true for all orders. While it is
                            > Strongly
                            > > preferred that the order approves, it ulimately is up to the King.
                            > >
                            > > Also, we should remember that not everyone that becomes a knight was a
                            > > squire.
                            > >
                            > > This is an interesting thread....
                            > >
                            > > In service,
                            > > Baroness Bianca
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Ann Franchi <AnitraF@...<AnitraF%
                            > 40gmail.com>>
                            > > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > This thread seems to imply that a squire can only be raised by a
                            > knight.
                            > > >
                            > > > In Trimaris, the actual knighting is done by the King.
                            > > >
                            > > > As each Crown sets the requirements for entry into Crown List, it is
                            > > > entirely possible that the Reigning King is not and has never been a
                            > > > Knight. Yet he is able to Knight someone.
                            > > >
                            > > > How would this affect your project?
                            > > >
                            > > > Anitra
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > Letalior Specierum! - (You wish you hit like a girl!)
                            > >
                            > > "Having heard all this you may turn away, but you can never say again you
                            > > did not know." William Wilberforce
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > "Deus solum perfectus est" - Only God is perfect.
                            >
                            > "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; but everyone is not entitled
                            > to
                            > their own facts."--Daniel Patrick Moynihan
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            --
                            "Some people weave burlap into the fabric of our lives, and some weave gold
                            thread. Both contribute to make the whole picture beautiful and unique."
                            Anonymous


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ann Franchi
                            I am learning so much here! Thank you, all! Anitra ... -- Some people weave burlap into the fabric of our lives, and some weave gold thread. Both contribute
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 24, 2010
                              I am learning so much here!

                              Thank you, all!

                              Anitra

                              On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > Quoth Ann Franchi:
                              >
                              > > As each Crown sets the requirements for entry into Crown List, it is
                              > > entirely possible that the Reigning King is not and has never been a
                              > > Knight. Yet he is able to Knight someone.
                              >
                              > Interesting! This is definitely IKA; in the kingdoms that I've
                              > lived in, when the King was not himself a knight, he needed
                              > a knight to stand beside him with his hands on the sword as well
                              > as the king, during the dubbing, for it to be a real knighting.
                              >
                              > -Aryanhwy
                              >
                              > --
                              > vita sine literis mors est
                              > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              --
                              "Some people weave burlap into the fabric of our lives, and some weave gold
                              thread. Both contribute to make the whole picture beautiful and unique."
                              Anonymous


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