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ATS-3B Power Output

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  • mikee30h
    I finally got to the last check on the 3B build, and although the radio works fine, power output on 40M seems low. I have only built and checked the 40M board
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 1, 2007
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      I finally got to the last check on the 3B build, and although the
      radio works fine, power output on 40M seems low. I have only built and
      checked the 40M board at this point.

      I only get about 1.5W with a 9v battery, and then about 3W with the
      11.1v LiPo. With a full 12V I get a bit under 4W out. I have rechecked
      all windings and cap values. Scrunching or spreading out the windings
      has no significant effect. I used two different, accurate wattmeters
      and get the same output. Although I do not care about squeezing the
      last bit of power out, and I don't really want to modify the filter
      boards, these readings definitely seem to be on the low side by at
      least half a watt or so. Can anyone suggest something else to check?
      Has anyone else gotten similar results?

      Thanks for any thoughts on this. Mike--NR7F
    • Michael Harnage
      If your 9V battery is a rectangular battery then I would not trust it. Get a more robust 9V source and see what it gives you. If your still low then short of
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 1, 2007
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        If your 9V battery is a rectangular battery then I
        would not trust it. Get a more robust 9V source and
        see what it gives you. If your still "low" then short
        of modifying the filter board (either turns on the
        inductors, cap values or both) there is probably not
        much else to do.

        Everyone of my filter boards (3, 3A, and 3B) are
        modified from stock. I don't change them for max power
        but rather uniform power and I shoot for 2.5 watts
        with a 9V source. This usually gives me 4+ watts with
        a 3 cell lipo which is plenty for me.

        -mike/w1mt



        --- mikee30h <nr7fcall@...> wrote:

        > I finally got to the last check on the 3B build, and
        > although the
        > radio works fine, power output on 40M seems low. I
        > have only built and
        > checked the 40M board at this point.
        >
        > I only get about 1.5W with a 9v battery, and then
        > about 3W with the
        > 11.1v LiPo. With a full 12V I get a bit under 4W
        > out. I have rechecked
        > all windings and cap values. Scrunching or spreading
        > out the windings
        > has no significant effect. I used two different,
        > accurate wattmeters
        > and get the same output. Although I do not care
        > about squeezing the
        > last bit of power out, and I don't really want to
        > modify the filter
        > boards, these readings definitely seem to be on the
        > low side by at
        > least half a watt or so. Can anyone suggest
        > something else to check?
        > Has anyone else gotten similar results?
        >
        > Thanks for any thoughts on this. Mike--NR7F
        >


        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      • mikee30h
        Well, after scrunching both windings the power came up a bit. Once I glued them in place it seemed like the power came up even a little more. It s just under
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 1, 2007
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          Well, after scrunching both windings the power came up a bit. Once I
          glued them in place it seemed like the power came up even a little
          more. It's just under 2W with the 9V, 3.5W with the 11V, and a solid
          4.5 with 12V. This just about in line with my 3A, so that's fine for
          me. I think initially I just hadn't scrunched the windings enough, and
          them I was only doing one or the other. In this case, it's works best
          with both of them scrunched up.

          Mike--NR7F

          --- In AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Harnage <w1mt@...> wrote:
          >
          > If your 9V battery is a rectangular battery then I
          > would not trust it. Get a more robust 9V source and
          > see what it gives you. If your still "low" then short
          > of modifying the filter board (either turns on the
          > inductors, cap values or both) there is probably not
          > much else to do.
          >
          > Everyone of my filter boards (3, 3A, and 3B) are
          > modified from stock. I don't change them for max power
          > but rather uniform power and I shoot for 2.5 watts
          > with a 9V source. This usually gives me 4+ watts with
          > a 3 cell lipo which is plenty for me.
          >
          > -mike/w1mt
          >
          >
          >
          > --- mikee30h <nr7fcall@...> wrote:
          >
          > > I finally got to the last check on the 3B build, and
          > > although the
          > > radio works fine, power output on 40M seems low. I
          > > have only built and
          > > checked the 40M board at this point.
          > >
          > > I only get about 1.5W with a 9v battery, and then
          > > about 3W with the
          > > 11.1v LiPo. With a full 12V I get a bit under 4W
          > > out. I have rechecked
          > > all windings and cap values. Scrunching or spreading
          > > out the windings
          > > has no significant effect. I used two different,
          > > accurate wattmeters
          > > and get the same output. Although I do not care
          > > about squeezing the
          > > last bit of power out, and I don't really want to
          > > modify the filter
          > > boards, these readings definitely seem to be on the
          > > low side by at
          > > least half a watt or so. Can anyone suggest
          > > something else to check?
          > > Has anyone else gotten similar results?
          > >
          > > Thanks for any thoughts on this. Mike--NR7F
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
          > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
          http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
          >
        • Steven Weber
          ... If you had to scrunch up both windings, adding one turn to each core will likely bring the power up to where it should be. Is it possible you happened to
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 2, 2007
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            >Well, after scrunching both windings the power came up a bit. Once I
            >glued them in place it seemed like the power came up even a little

            If you had to scrunch up both windings, adding one turn to each core will
            likely bring the power up to where it should be. Is it possible you
            happened to wind them one turn short? (though most people forget to count
            the first turn and end up with one to many)


            72,
            Steve, KD1JV
            "Melt Solder"
            White Mountains of New Hampshire
            http://kd1jv.qrpradio.com
          • radio_kx0r
            ... Mike, When I brought up 40M on my ATS-3A and also my ATS-3B, I saw about the same power levels you stated. I posted details on how to optimize ATS-3B
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 2, 2007
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              --- In AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com, "mikee30h" <nr7fcall@...> wrote:

              Mike,

              When I brought up 40M on my ATS-3A and also my ATS-3B, I saw about
              the same power levels you stated.

              I posted details on how to optimize ATS-3B filter boards here. It's
              a WORD file in the FILES section. Please also look at my other WORD
              file listing the power output and currents I ended up with for all
              the bands.

              On 40M I needed to increase C2F by adding 150 pf in parallel with the
              existing 680 pf cap. I found the same issue with the 40M module on
              my ATS-3A - power output really IS low on 40M. The coil adjustments
              are more reasonable after the increase to C2F. Adding to C2F is
              easier than rewinding a toroid, which is another reasonable
              option.

              You probably can get 2.9W @ 9V and 5W @ 12V on 40M just by adding
              capacitance to C2F and re-adjusting your toroid windings.

              Try tacking 50 or 100 pf across C2F, and re-adjust the windings, just
              to see if that takes you toward where you want to go.

              Please read both of my writeups if you want to optimize all your
              modules.

              The finals in this rig are getting strong gate drive on all bands.
              If the power is low, it's probably because the filters aren't quite
              matching the available output to the load. Be reasonable, and don't
              get greedy, if you make adjustments; monitor your current.

              Efficiency is higher on the lower frequencies, so if you want to be
              conservative, optimize the low bands 80, 40, and 30M; and settle for
              a little less output on the higher three bands - like 2.5W @ 9V and
              4.5W @ 12V.

              72/73
              KX0R
              Carey Fuller

              > Well, after scrunching both windings the power came up a bit. Once I
              > glued them in place it seemed like the power came up even a little
              > more. It's just under 2W with the 9V, 3.5W with the 11V, and a solid
              > 4.5 with 12V. This just about in line with my 3A, so that's fine for
              > me. I think initially I just hadn't scrunched the windings enough,
              and
              > them I was only doing one or the other. In this case, it's works
              best
              > with both of them scrunched up.
              >
              > Mike--NR7F
              >
              > --- In AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Harnage <w1mt@> wrote:
              > >
              > > If your 9V battery is a rectangular battery then I
              > > would not trust it. Get a more robust 9V source and
              > > see what it gives you. If your still "low" then short
              > > of modifying the filter board (either turns on the
              > > inductors, cap values or both) there is probably not
              > > much else to do.
              > >
              > > Everyone of my filter boards (3, 3A, and 3B) are
              > > modified from stock. I don't change them for max power
              > > but rather uniform power and I shoot for 2.5 watts
              > > with a 9V source. This usually gives me 4+ watts with
              > > a 3 cell lipo which is plenty for me.
              > >
              > > -mike/w1mt
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- mikee30h <nr7fcall@> wrote:
              > >
              > > > I finally got to the last check on the 3B build, and
              > > > although the
              > > > radio works fine, power output on 40M seems low. I
              > > > have only built and
              > > > checked the 40M board at this point.
              > > >
              > > > I only get about 1.5W with a 9v battery, and then
              > > > about 3W with the
              > > > 11.1v LiPo. With a full 12V I get a bit under 4W
              > > > out. I have rechecked
              > > > all windings and cap values. Scrunching or spreading
              > > > out the windings
              > > > has no significant effect. I used two different,
              > > > accurate wattmeters
              > > > and get the same output. Although I do not care
              > > > about squeezing the
              > > > last bit of power out, and I don't really want to
              > > > modify the filter
              > > > boards, these readings definitely seem to be on the
              > > > low side by at
              > > > least half a watt or so. Can anyone suggest
              > > > something else to check?
              > > > Has anyone else gotten similar results?
              > > >
              > > > Thanks for any thoughts on this. Mike--NR7F
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              ______________________________________________________________________
              ______________
              > > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
              > > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
              > http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
              > >
              >
            • mikee30h
              Thanks for the comments everyone. I m always so paranoid about putting the wrong number of windings on toroids that I recheck them a ridiculous number of
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 2, 2007
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                Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm always so paranoid about putting
                the wrong number of windings on toroids that I recheck them a
                ridiculous number of times, and I've got the correct number of turns
                on there. It's the one mistake I haven't made in kit
                building...yet...and I've made some doosies.

                Changing the number of windings, or the capacitance as Carey suggested
                would have probably been a nice option. It's something that I'll keep
                in mind for the other boards.

                In any case, I'm quite happy with the output I have now. I don't
                really feel like I need that last half watt. My 3A has worked fine
                with those power levels, so that's sort of been my target.

                Mike--NR7F



                --- In AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com, Steven Weber <kd1jv@...> wrote:
                >
                > >Well, after scrunching both windings the power came up a bit. Once I
                > >glued them in place it seemed like the power came up even a little
                >
                > If you had to scrunch up both windings, adding one turn to each core
                will
                > likely bring the power up to where it should be. Is it possible you
                > happened to wind them one turn short? (though most people forget to
                count
                > the first turn and end up with one to many)
                >
                >
                > 72,
                > Steve, KD1JV
                > "Melt Solder"
                > White Mountains of New Hampshire
                > http://kd1jv.qrpradio.com
                >
              • bill_noyce
                ... one. But ... Looking over old posts ... How about building your AC charger with both an AC plug and a pass-thru AC socket, so you can share the outlet with
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 6, 2008
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                  --- In AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com, Steven Weber <kd1jv@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >In short, it would comsume less (human) power to carry the small
                  > >solar panel(s) and/or additional batteries...
                  > >
                  > I'm afraid your right Mike. The only problem with the solar scheme is I
                  > might not be able to spend enough time in the sun to make that viable
                  > either. I need to find a really tiny and light AC charger or make
                  one. But
                  > when you get to a hostel and theres 10 hikers there who want to charge
                  > their cell phone in the one electrical outlet available, thats a problem
                  > too. Well, I got all winter to think of a solution.
                  >
                  >
                  > 72,
                  > Steve, KD1JV
                  > "Melt Solder"
                  > White Mountains of New Hampshire
                  > http://kd1jv.qrpradio.com
                  >
                  Looking over old posts ...

                  How about building your AC charger with both an AC plug and a
                  pass-thru AC socket, so you can share the outlet with someone else?
                  And if you make it have two sockets, you'll probably get first dibs at
                  the hostel outlet!
                  -- Bill, AB1AV
                • Steven Weber
                  ... That would increase the bulk of the charger. I found a nice tiny charger for a Bluetooth headset which works with the PDA - bearly. Most Hostels will give
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 6, 2008
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                    >Looking over old posts ...
                    >
                    >How about building your AC charger with both an AC plug and a
                    >pass-thru AC socket, so you can share the outlet with someone else?
                    >And if you make it have two sockets, you'll probably get first dibs at
                    >the hostel outlet!
                    > -- Bill, AB1AV

                    That would increase the bulk of the charger. I found a nice tiny charger
                    for a Bluetooth headset which works with the PDA - bearly. Most Hostels
                    will give hikers a ride to the a local supermarket. If they are starved for
                    electrical outlets, I could buy a three way AC plug there to donate to the
                    place :-)

                    I figured out a way to attach the little solar charger to the top of my
                    pack. I glued the barrel of a bic pen on either side of the solar charger
                    case to run elastic cord through and then clip to tabs on the top pocket of
                    the pack. Since the trees up on the ridge line don't leaf out until well
                    into May, there is usually plenty of sun, if its not cloudy all day.
                    72,
                    Steve, KD1JV
                    "Melt Solder"
                    White Mountains of New Hampshire
                    http://kd1jv.qrpradio.com
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