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Re: [AT_Sprint] 11.7 Volts from Lithium Ion Cells?

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  • Vojtěch Bubník
    I use just two cells pack of LiPols, that is sold in model shops to power airplanes. ATS-3 gives about 2W, the finals are cold and I am on the safe side. 73,
    Message 1 of 21 , May 31, 2007
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      I use just two cells pack of LiPols, that is sold in model shops to power airplanes. ATS-3 gives about 2W, the finals are cold and I am on the safe side.
      73, Vojtech OK1IAK

      > ------------ Původní zpráva ------------
      > Od: Michael Harnage <w1mt@...>
      > Předmět: Re: [AT_Sprint] 11.7 Volts from Lithium Ion Cells?
      > Datum: 01.6.2007 02:57:09
      > ----------------------------------------
      > Yep, many of us have.
      >
      > -mike/w1mt
      >
      > --- Hank Greeb <n8xx@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Has anyone used 3 Lithium Ion or Lithium Polymer
      > > cells?
      >
      >
      >
      > ____________________________________________________________________________________
      > TV dinner still cooling?
      > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
      > http://tv.yahoo.com/
      >
      >
      >
    • andrew.macallister@emersonprocess.com
      Both my ATS3 and ATS3A are now on two LiPo packs running a max V of around 8V. My ATS3 ran for 2 years on three LiPo packs - no problems. They were 300 maH.
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
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        Both my ATS3 and ATS3A are now on two LiPo packs running a max V of around 8V. My ATS3 ran for 2 years on three LiPo packs - no problems. They were 300 maH. When I finally zapped one, I went for two 650 maH packs - in the Altoids box with the xmtr. I get about 3W out most of the time, and that's PLENTY. My ATS3A uses 200 maH packs to save weight for the Spartan Sprint, which I won in March and April. As long as I don't call CQ too much, the 200 maH packs run solid for two hours.

        Andy W5ACM

        -----Original Message-----
        From: AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Vojtech Bubník
        Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:08 AM
        To: AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AT_Sprint] 11.7 Volts from Lithium Ion Cells?

        I use just two cells pack of LiPols, that is sold in model shops to power airplanes. ATS-3 gives about 2W, the finals are cold and I am on the safe side.
        73, Vojtech OK1IAK

        > ------------ Původní zpráva ------------
        > Od: Michael Harnage <w1mt@...>
        > Předmět: Re: [AT_Sprint] 11.7 Volts from Lithium Ion Cells?
        > Datum: 01.6.2007 02:57:09
        > ----------------------------------------
        > Yep, many of us have.
        >
        > -mike/w1mt
        >
        > --- Hank Greeb <n8xx@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Has anyone used 3 Lithium Ion or Lithium Polymer
        > > cells?
        >
        >
        >
        > ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > TV dinner still cooling?
        > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
        > http://tv.yahoo.com/
        >
        >
        >



        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Richard McKee
        Anyone know of a good source for individual lithium ion cells for rebuilding battery packs ? Rick McKee, KC8AON, Ohio - www.angelfire.com/electronic2/qrp
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
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          Anyone know of a good source for individual lithium ion cells for
          rebuilding battery packs ?

          Rick McKee, KC8AON, Ohio - www.angelfire.com/electronic2/qrp
          Monthly QRP Field Day Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MQFD/
          With God all things are possible <><
        • Richard McKee
          I recommend the NiNH AA cells because Wal Mart sells a charger that works in your car or home, charges 4 at once and costs $18.00. They are Grey in color and
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
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            I recommend the NiNH AA cells because Wal Mart sells a charger that
            works in your car or home, charges 4 at once and costs $18.00. They are
            Grey in color and do fast charge with real success. [snip]

            Hello Karl and Gang,
            I use a 12 volt 2.3 aH gell cell for my QRP rigs - it can be charged
            direct from the cigar lighter socket in my car and no special charger
            needed. I do like the NiMH batteries though - they are fairly
            lightweight. Been wanting to build up a few 9.6 volt packs and a charger
            for them to use with my Icom 703 but never have tarted rounding up the
            parts - oh well, maybe one day ! Anyone know of a schematic for a simple
            9.6 volt NiMH charger ?

            Rick McKee, KC8AON, Ohio - www.angelfire.com/electronic2/qrp
            Monthly QRP Field Day Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MQFD/
            With God all things are possible <><
          • w1mt
            Hank, I have used a 950 mAh 3-cell packs and gotten in excess of 6 hours from them. I get a full two hours from 2-cell 250mAh packs for the Sprints. I haven t
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
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              Hank,

              I have used a 950 mAh 3-cell packs and gotten in excess of 6 hours
              from them. I get a full two hours from 2-cell 250mAh packs for the
              Sprints. I haven't played serious in the sprints for a while but those
              25mAh packs are ideal for two hours.

              One thing I would highly recommend for a non Spartan Sprint pack is
              getting packs that have balancing capability. Then use either a
              balancer with your charger or use a special charger that can handle
              the balancing directly. Obviously for the sprints you probably don't
              want the extra weight of a balancing port.

              My personal opinion is that the 3-cell packs are about as much voltage
              that I want to power an ATS unit with.

              Hope this data point helps...

              -mike/w1mt

              --- In AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com, Hank Greeb <n8xx@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks! Any specific type, maH, etc? Is there much difference in
              power
              > output with 11.1 volts vs 12 volts?
              >
              > How many operating hours can one get from a bank of cells which will
              fit
              > in a second Altoids tin?
              >
            • radio_kx0r
              Hank, I run my ATS-3A on 3 lithium ion cells, which give a maximum voltage, fully charged, of just over 12V. These are CGR 18650C cells rated at about 2150
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
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                Hank,

                I run my ATS-3A on 3 lithium ion cells, which give a maximum voltage,
                fully charged, of just over 12V. These are CGR 18650C cells rated at
                about 2150 mAH. I employ a protection circuit (commercial PCB) and a
                polyswitch. Charging is done by a voltage-regulated, current-limited
                charger.

                If you use lithium-ion or lithium-polymer you should read the data
                sheet for the batteries you choose, and follow the various
                recommendations. Be sure your battery pack contains a protection
                circuit to prevent overcharging, overdischarging, and overcurrent.

                The CGR 18650 cells are used in many notebook computers and will
                provide more operating time than you probably need with your ATS-3A.
                They are too large and heavy for the sprints, where you might care
                about size and weight. However, three cells would be fine for
                serious hiking or backpacking where you want quite a few hours of QSO
                time.

                The ATS-3 amd 3A need to be modified a bit to deliver nice keying
                waveforms at 12V supply. There are a lot of other posts and files
                here to help with that.

                Another real nice combination is 8 AA NiMH cells, which will give
                over 10V fully charged, and about 9.6V over most of the discharge.
                These are cheap and widely available at about 2500 mAH. If you make
                your own pack, get cells with tabs. AAA cells are also available at
                about 1000 mAH. They all need a special charger for best results,
                but they are not as picky as lithium ion cells. The ATS radios have
                more safety factor when run below 10V.

                Good luck -

                KX0R
                >
                > Thanks! Any specific type, maH, etc? Is there much difference in
                power
                > output with 11.1 volts vs 12 volts?
                >
                > How many operating hours can one get from a bank of cells which
                will fit
                > in a second Altoids tin?
                >
                > 72 de n8xx Hg
                >
                > Michael Harnage wrote:
                > >
                > > Yep, many of us have.
                > >
                > > -mike/w1mt
                > >
                > > --- Hank Greeb <n8xx@... <mailto:n8xx%40arrl.org>> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Has anyone used 3 Lithium Ion or Lithium Polymer
                > > > cells?
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Dave
                ... Expect the power output to be roughly proportional to the square of the voltage. 12V would give you about 16% more power than 11.1V, maybe 0.75W more.
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
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                  > Is there much difference in power output with 11.1 volts vs 12
                  > volts?

                  Expect the power output to be roughly proportional to the square of the
                  voltage. 12V would give you about 16% more power than 11.1V, maybe
                  0.75W more.

                  Dave
                • Stephen Clark
                  First of all thanks for all of the welcomes and encouragement upon joining the list. I appreciate it. I have been looking at Lithium Ion Cells for portable
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
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                    First of all thanks for all of the welcomes and
                    encouragement upon joining the list. I appreciate it.

                    I have been looking at Lithium Ion Cells for portable
                    use here in the islands. In the conditions here I am
                    wondering if (in my case) Nimh would be better. I am
                    thinking of life of the battery over time (number of
                    recharges and durability). I also had heard from an
                    R/C buddy of mine that the Lithium Ion cells can
                    overheat and burn? Has anyone had any experience with
                    that type of problem?

                    72/73
                    Steve
                    V73CS





                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
                    http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
                  • andrew.macallister@emersonprocess.com
                    Hi Steve, No. The ones that went south on me simply puffed up. This occurred because I do not have any protection circuitry, they were aging, and I ran them
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
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                      Hi Steve,

                       

                      No. The ones that went "south" on me simply puffed up. This occurred because I do not have any protection circuitry, they were aging, and I ran them down too low. This has only occurred on the 200 and 300 maH LiPo's. None of my larger batteries have yet to fail.

                       

                      Andy W5ACM

                       


                      From: AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Clark
                      Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 2:08 PM
                      To: AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [AT_Sprint] Re: 11.7 Volts from Lithium Ion Cells?

                       

                      First of all thanks for all of the welcomes and
                      encouragement upon joining the list. I appreciate it.

                      I have been looking at Lithium Ion Cells for portable
                      use here in the islands. In the conditions here I am
                      wondering if (in my case) Nimh would be better. I am
                      thinking of life of the battery over time (number of
                      recharges and durability). I also had heard from an
                      R/C buddy of mine that the Lithium Ion cells can
                      overheat and burn? Has anyone had any experience with
                      that type of problem?

                      72/73
                      Steve
                      V73CS

                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                      Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
                      http://answers. yahoo.com/ dir/?link= list&sid= 396545469

                    • John Harper
                      Hi Steve, I use LiPos exclusively in my QRP rigs when operating portable. If you decide to use NiMH AA s instead, keep in mind that you will need more cells to
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 2, 2007
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                        Hi Steve,

                        I use LiPos exclusively in my QRP rigs when operating portable. If you
                        decide to use NiMH AA's instead, keep in mind that you will need more
                        cells to provide a given voltage than with any other AA-from factor
                        chemistry. I've compared a few battery types here:
                        http://www.ae5x.com/compare%20mAh.htm

                        Regarding the potential for overheating/burning in LiPo cells, most of
                        the cases where this has occurred have been in R/C applications where
                        the battery is supplying current at or near its peak rated output. I
                        have a motor (http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-uberall.htm) that
                        pulls 18 amps from my the same make and model LiPo battery (2100 mAH)
                        that I often use with my KX1. Its max discharge rate is 31A (50A
                        intermittent) and does get warm in R/C use but when powering the KX1,
                        I doubt the battery even knows it's being used.

                        73,

                        John Harper AE5X
                        http://www.ae5x.com



                        --- In AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Clark <clarkmvimi@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have been looking at Lithium Ion Cells for portable
                        > use here in the islands. In the conditions here I am
                        > wondering if (in my case) Nimh would be better. I am
                        > thinking of life of the battery over time (number of
                        > recharges and durability). I also had heard from an
                        > R/C buddy of mine that the Lithium Ion cells can
                        > overheat and burn? Has anyone had any experience with
                        > that type of problem?
                        >
                      • Karl Larsen
                        Hi Gang, I use LiPos in my Yaesu VX2R HT and my laptop and my cell phone. What do these devices have in common? They have a chip inside them that charges the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 2, 2007
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                          Hi Gang, I use LiPos in my Yaesu VX2R HT and my laptop and my cell
                          phone. What do these devices have in common? They have a chip inside
                          them that charges the LiPos battery. You put in 5 Volts DC about and the
                          chip sets the charge rates.

                          For my radios I use NiMH AA cells. I run 12 volts to my ATS-3 from
                          10 of the AA cells in a nice Mouser battery case. These 2200 mAH cells
                          will run a ATS-3 all day in a contest.

                          I recommend the NiNH AA cells because Wal Mart sells a charger that
                          works in your car or home, charges 4 at once and costs $18.00. They are
                          Grey in color and do fast charge with real success.

                          Have Fun, 73 Karl K5DI





                          John Harper wrote:
                          > Hi Steve,
                          >
                          > I use LiPos exclusively in my QRP rigs when operating portable. If you
                          > decide to use NiMH AA's instead, keep in mind that you will need more
                          > cells to provide a given voltage than with any other AA-from factor
                          > chemistry. I've compared a few battery types here:
                          > http://www.ae5x.com/compare%20mAh.htm
                          >
                          > Regarding the potential for overheating/burning in LiPo cells, most of
                          > the cases where this has occurred have been in R/C applications where
                          > the battery is supplying current at or near its peak rated output. I
                          > have a motor (http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-uberall.htm) that
                          > pulls 18 amps from my the same make and model LiPo battery (2100 mAH)
                          > that I often use with my KX1. Its max discharge rate is 31A (50A
                          > intermittent) and does get warm in R/C use but when powering the KX1,
                          > I doubt the battery even knows it's being used.
                          >
                          > 73,
                          >
                          > John Harper AE5X
                          > http://www.ae5x.com
                          >
                          >
                        • andrew.macallister@emersonprocess.com
                          http://www.batteriesamerica.com One of my favorites for many years - used to be Mr. NiCAD , also known as E. H. Yost. GL! de Andy W5ACM
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 2, 2007
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                            http://www.batteriesamerica.com

                            One of my favorites for many years - used to be "Mr. NiCAD", also known as E. H. Yost.

                            GL! de Andy W5ACM


                            ________________________________

                            From: AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Richard McKee
                            Sent: Fri 6/1/2007 8:49 AM
                            To: AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [AT_Sprint] Re: 11.7 Volts from Lithium Ion Cells?



                            Anyone know of a good source for individual lithium ion cells for
                            rebuilding battery packs ?

                            Rick McKee, KC8AON, Ohio - www.angelfire.com/electronic2/qrp
                            Monthly QRP Field Day Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MQFD/ <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MQFD/>
                            With God all things are possible <><
                          • radio_kx0r
                            Most of the major manufacturers of lithium ion cells prevent their distributors from selling individual cells, because of risks and liability issues. Lithium
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 3, 2007
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                              Most of the major manufacturers of lithium ion cells prevent their
                              distributors from selling individual cells, because of risks and
                              liability issues. Lithium ion cells can store and deliver enough
                              energy to cause fires and injury, if they're not managed correctly.
                              Some of the cells available at various battery sellers on the internet
                              may come from lesser manufacturers overseas, and they may carry more
                              risks than the cells from the big guys. Be sure you use a protection
                              circuit for any pack you build.

                              There are several suppliers of lithium polymer (LiPO) packs on the
                              internet, and most of these are sold for R/C (model radio control)
                              hobbies. These batteries have great specs and are favored for
                              competitive R/C applications like high-performance airplanes. They are
                              way better than what you need for a QRP rig, and the prices are
                              reasonable for the smaller packs. Be sure you use a charger designed
                              to charge whatever battery you use. Lithium packs must not be
                              overcharged, over-discharged, reversed, or discharged at too high a
                              rate. Read the fine print and don't cheat. Always charge in a safe
                              place, away from flammable material, with a safe charger. Think about
                              what might happen if the power goes off during charge with no one
                              around; will the battery dump into your charger and burn something up?
                              Don't even think about using clip leads or open wires connected to a
                              lithium pack - it's too easy to have a short-circuit accident.
                              Polyswitches can prevent a lot of trouble.

                              When we take radios to the field, more problems happen - connectors get
                              stressed, radios misbehave, matching circuits don't match, we sometimes
                              forget to connect the antenna, the antenna falls down, we plug in the
                              wrong plug in the wrong hole, clip leads somehow get reversed, etc.
                              Please be sure to protect your radio from accidents - the one or two
                              tenths of a volt that a polyswitch takes when the key is down will
                              never be missed, but good batteries can take out your finals and even
                              the traces on your pcb if there's no protection.

                              Many of the accidents that have happened with lithium ion cells have
                              occurred when people were building or rebuilding battery packs. Think
                              about how easy it is to have a short circuit with perhaps 100 amps
                              flowing, just because you slipped with a soldering iron and bridged a
                              couple of points in the cramped space of a battery pack. What if you
                              goof in the part of the wiring that's not protected? If you choose to
                              do this, read up on it first, and use discipline so you leave little to
                              chance. Most of what you read will be full of warnings and
                              disclaimers. It's probably just as dangerous to work on a lithium ion
                              pack as it is to work on your house wiring.

                              Please be careful...

                              KX0R

                              --- In AT_Sprint@yahoogroups.com, Richard McKee <QRP_1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Anyone know of a good source for individual lithium ion cells for
                              > rebuilding battery packs ?
                              >
                              > Rick McKee, KC8AON, Ohio - www.angelfire.com/electronic2/qrp
                              > Monthly QRP Field Day Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MQFD/
                              > With God all things are possible <><
                              >
                            • Richard McKee
                              Most of the major manufacturers of lithium ion cells prevent their distributors from selling individual cells, because of risks and liability issues. Lithium
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 3, 2007
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                                Most of the major manufacturers of lithium ion cells prevent their
                                distributors from selling individual cells, because of risks and
                                liability issues. Lithium ion cells can store and deliver enough
                                energy to cause fires and injury, if they're not managed correctly.
                                Some of the cells available at various battery sellers on the internet
                                may come from lesser manufacturers overseas, and they may carry more
                                risks than the cells from the big guys. Be sure you use a protection
                                circuit for any pack you build. [snip]

                                Well, I was wanting the cells to rebuild an existing pack - an old laptop
                                battery pack to be exact. Would the lithium polymer cells be compatible
                                in this application ? The laptop is an old one and on its way in
                                shipment. It will be used for amateur radio applications only and I
                                don't want to spend a bunch on it. The battery pack isn't all that
                                important as long as it will run on the AC adapter, but having battery
                                capability would be nice if I can do it without spending a fortune. I
                                have noticed that some of the AC adapters for laptops are rated at 12
                                volts. Has anyone ever tried running a laptop on a 12 volt battery
                                plugged direct into the power jack ? Sounds logical or am I missing
                                soemthing here ?

                                Rick McKee, KC8AON, Ohio - www.angelfire.com/electronic2/qrp
                                Monthly QRP Field Day Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MQFD/
                                With God all things are possible <><
                              • radio_kx0r
                                Rick, I doubt that the lithium polymer cells would replace lithium ion in an older pack, because they have different shapes, often flat and rectangular instead
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 3, 2007
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                                  Rick,

                                  I doubt that the lithium polymer cells would replace lithium ion in
                                  an older pack, because they have different shapes, often flat and
                                  rectangular instead of cylindrical cells. You might be able to
                                  substitute a complete pack if you find something that will fit or
                                  plug in with a cable. The voltages must match closely, but you might
                                  be able to do that.

                                  If the computer is designed to run on a voltage range that includes
                                  12 volts, you might be able to run on a 12 volt battery. You should
                                  be OK if you match the voltage the AC adapter puts out. All the
                                  lithium packs function over a moderately wide range, usually about
                                  4.2V down to 3.0V per cell. This means a 3-cell pack would deliver
                                  about 12.6V fully charged, dropping to about 9.0V at the end of safe
                                  discharge. These voltages differ among various cell chemistries, so
                                  you have to read the data sheets for the batteries you have.

                                  I think rebuilding a pack is dangerous. It's very easy to create a
                                  short with your pliers and other tools. A careless short circuit
                                  might weld instantly....then you have to run, because things will get
                                  too hot and something bad will happen real fast! The problem is that
                                  the cells are always on, and you can't safely discharge them to work
                                  on them. If you discharge the cells well below 3V, they may be
                                  permanently damaged. You might be smart to work outdoors and wear
                                  safety glasses if you choose to work on any lithium packs.

                                  The people who build packs do it according to procedures that
                                  minimize errors and risks. They know their game.

                                  It might be smart to use the services of someone who knows how to
                                  service lithium packs, instead of taking such large risks.

                                  KX0R


                                  > Well, I was wanting the cells to rebuild an existing pack - an old
                                  laptop
                                  > battery pack to be exact. Would the lithium polymer cells be
                                  compatible
                                  > in this application ? The laptop is an old one and on its way in
                                  > shipment. It will be used for amateur radio applications only and I
                                  > don't want to spend a bunch on it. The battery pack isn't all that
                                  > important as long as it will run on the AC adapter, but having
                                  battery
                                  > capability would be nice if I can do it without spending a
                                  fortune. I
                                  > have noticed that some of the AC adapters for laptops are rated at
                                  12
                                  > volts. Has anyone ever tried running a laptop on a 12 volt battery
                                  > plugged direct into the power jack ? Sounds logical or am I missing
                                  > soemthing here ?
                                  >
                                  > Rick McKee, KC8AON, Ohio - www.angelfire.com/electronic2/qrp
                                  > Monthly QRP Field Day Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MQFD/
                                  > With God all things are possible <><
                                  >
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