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RE: [ARRL-LOTW] RE: Expectations of LotW & why folk don't use it

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  • Barry Murrell ZS2EZ
    Last time I looked, the ARRL WAS a US organisation - their awards, their rules!! If you don t like or accept their rules, don t play!!! Joe is quite right -
    Message 1 of 35 , Jul 11, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Last time I looked, the ARRL WAS a US organisation - their awards, their rules!! If you don't like or accept their rules, don't play!!!
      Joe is quite right - the RSGB's IOTA rules are totally ridiculous - hence I don't participate (or moan about them)!!
      Same goes for contest rules.....

      Despite being a LONG way from the USA I have absolutely no issues with the rules and regulation pertaining to LoTW, the DXCC program or for that matter WAS/VUCC - and hold certificates for all of them. As it is, I have found the whole system very easy to use, and am very grateful to the ARRL for providing the whole awards program.


      73 de BARRY MURRELL ZS2EZ
      KF26ta - Port Elizabeth, South Africa
      Member : SARL - ARRL
      EPC#0558 DMC#1690 WCC#030 30MDG#4081
      DXCC(mixed)#41,146 DXCC(RTTY)#1,916
      DXCC(phone)#34,990 DXCC(CW)#11,714
      DXCC 40m,30m,20m,17m,15m,12m,10m
      WAS Triple Play #492 WAS(RTTY)#538 WAZ(RTTY)#185 WAE-I(mixed)#72
      WAZS(mixed)#214 AAA#1569
      AS ZR6DXB: VUCC(50MHZ)#1,334 UKSMG WAE(Silver)#75 UKSMG AFRICA#22 WAC (Satellite)
      website : www.zs2ez.co.za




      -----Original Message-----
      From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
      Sent: 11 July 2013 14:04
      To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Robert Galambos
      Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] RE: Expectations of LotW & why folk don't use it


      > Sad really when ham radio is such a world wide hobby and not just US > centric

      When ARRL set up the awards programs (DXCC, WAS, VUCC) and the confirmation platform (LotW), they can make the rules. I think RSGB's rules for IOTA are absurd but I don't criticize them.


      73,

      ... Joe, W4TV


      On 7/11/2013 6:23 AM, Robert Galambos wrote:
      > It all comes down to AARL not trusting anyone other themselves.
      >
      > Sad really when ham radio is such a world wide hobby and not just US
      > centric
      >
      > Sent from my iPad
      >
      > On 2013-07-11, at 4:50, Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY <ct2iry@...> wrote:
      >
      >> Hi Joe,
      >>
      >> Here in CT Land the National Telecommunications Agency (ANACOM) it's the Government (they are a part of the Ministry of Telecommunication ) when regarding to all telecommunications in CT, they make the exams, the band plan, issue call's, everything in Hamradio, television, mobile phones, etc..., is regulate by them.
      >>
      >> They keep an database of all the call's in CT, CT3, CU, up to date.
      >>
      >> Our National Society (REP) has nothing to do with databases or call issue or exams or whatever in hamradio, they are the buro, and representative from CT in IARU.
      >>
      >> Here when there is a revision for the ham band plan the National Telecommunications Agency (ANACOM), ask for every ham club, ham society, or individual ham, to make an proposal for the revision.
      >>
      >> The only thing here different from the snail mail to email license & ID, it's the fact there in snail mail the envelope carry's the post office mark of the country from where he is sent.
      >>
      >> But let´s say for e.g. - I sent in email an D2 license & my Portuguese ID, if I was not there I can't have access to an license from D2, but if I was there and got the license, when I sent by snail mail my ID would be the Portuguese one, with my address in Portugal, so I would have D2 license with D2 address, and Portuguese ID with Portuguese address, but the post office mark from D2.
      >>
      >> All of this comes to the post office mark on the envelope.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> 73 Nuno
      >> CT2IRY
      >>
      >> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists@...>
      >> To: Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY <ct2iry@...>
      >> Cc: "ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com" <ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 11:23 PM
      >> Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] RE: Expectations of LotW & why folk don't
      >> use it
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On 7/10/2013 3:16 PM, Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY wrote:
      >>> Joe,
      >>>
      >>> If the card checker is good for checking the QSL's for awards, I
      >>> think they should be good for ID & Call check, I don't think that
      >>> this is give up control, they already do a job for them, oppose to
      >>> National Societies (here I understand).
      >>
      >> ARRL is not comfortable with someone else determining ID. The credit
      >> card address verification is not a third party - with a name and
      >> address match that matches the licensee name and address it is an
      >> independent objective verification.
      >>
      >>> My point on credit card is that one, many people don't have a credit
      >>> card with is/her name on it,
      >>
      >> There are limitations to every system - with no credit card one can
      >> still use the "by mail" system. I don't think ARRL should or will
      >> allow one person to both check the cards and verify ID.
      >>
      >>> I think that the best option for us R.O.W, would be ID&Call checking
      >>> trough the Card checker, most of the county's that I know have an
      >>> database like the FCC, the card checker can see there if the call is
      >>> good (active or suspend, or doesn't exist), here when you pass the
      >>> exam, you bring home your license, no waiting, our card has the name
      >>> and address.
      >>
      >> ARRL have said they would use databases equivalent to those of the
      >> FCC
      >> *IF* they are maintained by the responsible *government* agency. The
      >> problem is that most (e.g., Canada, Great Britain, etc.) are not
      >> government databases but databases maintained by national societies.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> 73,
      >>
      >> ... Joe, W4TV
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> 73 Nuno CT2IRY
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> ________________________________ From: "Joe Subich, W4TV"
      >>>> <lists@...> To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com Cc: Nuno Lopes -
      >>>> CT2IRY <ct2iry@...> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:53 PM
      >>>> Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] RE: Expectations of LotW & why folk don't
      >>>> use it
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> On 7/10/2013 2:17 PM, Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY wrote:
      >>>>> The card checker's could verify the documents from the person,
      >>>>> e.g.
      >>>>
      >>>> ARRL could also use national societies if they wanted to do so but
      >>>> it seems that they do not want to give up that control.
      >>>>
      >>>>> The problem with credit cards is if you don't have one, and have
      >>>>> to use an card from a friend or family member.
      >>>>
      >>>> The card from a friend or family member would not provide
      >>>> verification. That is the entire point - to provide a secure ID
      >>>> that matches name to address and matches name/address on the
      >>>> license.
      >>>>
      >>>>> Snail mail from here to Rest of the World is 0.85€
      >>>>
      >>>> At an average of between 1.30 and 1.35 USD/EUR your 0.85€ would be
      >>>> $1.12 ... 2.00€ from Italy would be $2.60 ... 0.75€ from Germany
      >>>> would be $1.00, etc.
      >>>>
      >>>> Looking at rates here: http://www.k4hb.com/postage/ shows most of
      >>>> the rest of the world are between $1.00 and $5.00 as I suggested.
      >>>>
      >>>> 73,
      >>>>
      >>>> ... Joe, W4TV
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> On 7/10/2013 2:17 PM, Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY wrote:
      >>>>> Hi Joe,
      >>>>>
      >>>>> The card checker's could verify the documents from the person,
      >>>>> e.g.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> I sent the TQ.5 to ARRL Then sent to the card checker an copy of
      >>>>> my license and my ID, by email, it's easy to the Manager to
      >>>>> confirm if your call is valid, here in CT we've a database from
      >>>>> the ANACOM, National Telecommunications Agency, and it's up to
      >>>>> date. The Manager confirms my credentials to ARRL. ARRL sent the
      >>>>> TQ.6 with the password. This can be done in less then 24/48h.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> The problem with credit cards is if you don't have one, and have
      >>>>> to use an card from a friend or family member.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Snail mail from here to Rest of the World is 0.85€
      >>>>>
      >>>>> 73 Nuno CT2IRY
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>> ________________________________ From: "Joe Subich, W4TV"
      >>>>>> <lists@...> To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com Cc: pcooper
      >>>>>> <pcooper@...> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:00 PM
      >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] RE: Expectations of LotW & why folk
      >>>>>> don't use it
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> On 7/10/2013 12:59 PM, pcooper wrote:
      >>>>>>> Outside the USA, we have a few more hoops to jump through, but
      >>>>>>> for me, it was well worth doing. OK, so it took a week to get
      >>>>>>> the email and get it all set up and running, but in the grand
      >>>>>>> scheme of things, this really isn't an issue.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> I have suggested to the Manager of the MVP Department
      >>>>>> (responsible for LotW, and all of the awards programs) that ARRL
      >>>>>> consider the use of credit cards and/or PayPal for verification
      >>>>>> of DX stations - even if it meant charging a nominal $1.00 -
      >>>>>> $5.00 to cover the fees. LotW/MVP could use a credit card *in
      >>>>>> the name of the licensee* with a billing address that matched the
      >>>>>> license address as a check against scanned copies of the license
      >>>>>> and ID (driver's license, passport, ID card, etc.) and avoid the
      >>>>>> need to see the physical papers with *postmark* from the country
      >>>>>> of license.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Credit card address verification is very well advanced and as
      >>>>>> long as the issuing bank supports it, address verification should
      >>>>>> provide a quick and effective way to accomplish what takes an
      >>>>>> extended period of time today. A nominal fee could conceivably
      >>>>>> be less than the postage (or certainly competitive with postage
      >>>>>> rated from places like Germany) and "address verification" might
      >>>>>> provide considerable saving of staff time compared to the manual
      >>>>>> verification process. Unfortunately, there are countries/banks
      >>>>>> that do not provide address verification so those licensees would
      >>>>>> still need to use the existing procedure.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> 73,
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> ... Joe, W4TV
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >


      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Barry Murrell ZS2EZ
      Last time I looked, the ARRL WAS a US organisation - their awards, their rules!! If you don t like or accept their rules, don t play!!! Joe is quite right -
      Message 35 of 35 , Jul 11, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Last time I looked, the ARRL WAS a US organisation - their awards, their rules!! If you don't like or accept their rules, don't play!!!
        Joe is quite right - the RSGB's IOTA rules are totally ridiculous - hence I don't participate (or moan about them)!!
        Same goes for contest rules.....

        Despite being a LONG way from the USA I have absolutely no issues with the rules and regulation pertaining to LoTW, the DXCC program or for that matter WAS/VUCC - and hold certificates for all of them. As it is, I have found the whole system very easy to use, and am very grateful to the ARRL for providing the whole awards program.


        73 de BARRY MURRELL ZS2EZ
        KF26ta - Port Elizabeth, South Africa
        Member : SARL - ARRL
        EPC#0558 DMC#1690 WCC#030 30MDG#4081
        DXCC(mixed)#41,146 DXCC(RTTY)#1,916
        DXCC(phone)#34,990 DXCC(CW)#11,714
        DXCC 40m,30m,20m,17m,15m,12m,10m
        WAS Triple Play #492 WAS(RTTY)#538 WAZ(RTTY)#185 WAE-I(mixed)#72
        WAZS(mixed)#214 AAA#1569
        AS ZR6DXB: VUCC(50MHZ)#1,334 UKSMG WAE(Silver)#75 UKSMG AFRICA#22 WAC (Satellite)
        website : www.zs2ez.co.za




        -----Original Message-----
        From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
        Sent: 11 July 2013 14:04
        To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: Robert Galambos
        Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] RE: Expectations of LotW & why folk don't use it


        > Sad really when ham radio is such a world wide hobby and not just US > centric

        When ARRL set up the awards programs (DXCC, WAS, VUCC) and the confirmation platform (LotW), they can make the rules. I think RSGB's rules for IOTA are absurd but I don't criticize them.


        73,

        ... Joe, W4TV


        On 7/11/2013 6:23 AM, Robert Galambos wrote:
        > It all comes down to AARL not trusting anyone other themselves.
        >
        > Sad really when ham radio is such a world wide hobby and not just US
        > centric
        >
        > Sent from my iPad
        >
        > On 2013-07-11, at 4:50, Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY <ct2iry@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Hi Joe,
        >>
        >> Here in CT Land the National Telecommunications Agency (ANACOM) it's the Government (they are a part of the Ministry of Telecommunication ) when regarding to all telecommunications in CT, they make the exams, the band plan, issue call's, everything in Hamradio, television, mobile phones, etc..., is regulate by them.
        >>
        >> They keep an database of all the call's in CT, CT3, CU, up to date.
        >>
        >> Our National Society (REP) has nothing to do with databases or call issue or exams or whatever in hamradio, they are the buro, and representative from CT in IARU.
        >>
        >> Here when there is a revision for the ham band plan the National Telecommunications Agency (ANACOM), ask for every ham club, ham society, or individual ham, to make an proposal for the revision.
        >>
        >> The only thing here different from the snail mail to email license & ID, it's the fact there in snail mail the envelope carry's the post office mark of the country from where he is sent.
        >>
        >> But let´s say for e.g. - I sent in email an D2 license & my Portuguese ID, if I was not there I can't have access to an license from D2, but if I was there and got the license, when I sent by snail mail my ID would be the Portuguese one, with my address in Portugal, so I would have D2 license with D2 address, and Portuguese ID with Portuguese address, but the post office mark from D2.
        >>
        >> All of this comes to the post office mark on the envelope.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> 73 Nuno
        >> CT2IRY
        >>
        >> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists@...>
        >> To: Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY <ct2iry@...>
        >> Cc: "ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com" <ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 11:23 PM
        >> Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] RE: Expectations of LotW & why folk don't
        >> use it
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> On 7/10/2013 3:16 PM, Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY wrote:
        >>> Joe,
        >>>
        >>> If the card checker is good for checking the QSL's for awards, I
        >>> think they should be good for ID & Call check, I don't think that
        >>> this is give up control, they already do a job for them, oppose to
        >>> National Societies (here I understand).
        >>
        >> ARRL is not comfortable with someone else determining ID. The credit
        >> card address verification is not a third party - with a name and
        >> address match that matches the licensee name and address it is an
        >> independent objective verification.
        >>
        >>> My point on credit card is that one, many people don't have a credit
        >>> card with is/her name on it,
        >>
        >> There are limitations to every system - with no credit card one can
        >> still use the "by mail" system. I don't think ARRL should or will
        >> allow one person to both check the cards and verify ID.
        >>
        >>> I think that the best option for us R.O.W, would be ID&Call checking
        >>> trough the Card checker, most of the county's that I know have an
        >>> database like the FCC, the card checker can see there if the call is
        >>> good (active or suspend, or doesn't exist), here when you pass the
        >>> exam, you bring home your license, no waiting, our card has the name
        >>> and address.
        >>
        >> ARRL have said they would use databases equivalent to those of the
        >> FCC
        >> *IF* they are maintained by the responsible *government* agency. The
        >> problem is that most (e.g., Canada, Great Britain, etc.) are not
        >> government databases but databases maintained by national societies.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> 73,
        >>
        >> ... Joe, W4TV
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> 73 Nuno CT2IRY
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> ________________________________ From: "Joe Subich, W4TV"
        >>>> <lists@...> To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com Cc: Nuno Lopes -
        >>>> CT2IRY <ct2iry@...> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:53 PM
        >>>> Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] RE: Expectations of LotW & why folk don't
        >>>> use it
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> On 7/10/2013 2:17 PM, Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY wrote:
        >>>>> The card checker's could verify the documents from the person,
        >>>>> e.g.
        >>>>
        >>>> ARRL could also use national societies if they wanted to do so but
        >>>> it seems that they do not want to give up that control.
        >>>>
        >>>>> The problem with credit cards is if you don't have one, and have
        >>>>> to use an card from a friend or family member.
        >>>>
        >>>> The card from a friend or family member would not provide
        >>>> verification. That is the entire point - to provide a secure ID
        >>>> that matches name to address and matches name/address on the
        >>>> license.
        >>>>
        >>>>> Snail mail from here to Rest of the World is 0.85€
        >>>>
        >>>> At an average of between 1.30 and 1.35 USD/EUR your 0.85€ would be
        >>>> $1.12 ... 2.00€ from Italy would be $2.60 ... 0.75€ from Germany
        >>>> would be $1.00, etc.
        >>>>
        >>>> Looking at rates here: http://www.k4hb.com/postage/ shows most of
        >>>> the rest of the world are between $1.00 and $5.00 as I suggested.
        >>>>
        >>>> 73,
        >>>>
        >>>> ... Joe, W4TV
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> On 7/10/2013 2:17 PM, Nuno Lopes - CT2IRY wrote:
        >>>>> Hi Joe,
        >>>>>
        >>>>> The card checker's could verify the documents from the person,
        >>>>> e.g.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> I sent the TQ.5 to ARRL Then sent to the card checker an copy of
        >>>>> my license and my ID, by email, it's easy to the Manager to
        >>>>> confirm if your call is valid, here in CT we've a database from
        >>>>> the ANACOM, National Telecommunications Agency, and it's up to
        >>>>> date. The Manager confirms my credentials to ARRL. ARRL sent the
        >>>>> TQ.6 with the password. This can be done in less then 24/48h.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> The problem with credit cards is if you don't have one, and have
        >>>>> to use an card from a friend or family member.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> Snail mail from here to Rest of the World is 0.85€
        >>>>>
        >>>>> 73 Nuno CT2IRY
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>> ________________________________ From: "Joe Subich, W4TV"
        >>>>>> <lists@...> To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com Cc: pcooper
        >>>>>> <pcooper@...> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:00 PM
        >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] RE: Expectations of LotW & why folk
        >>>>>> don't use it
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> On 7/10/2013 12:59 PM, pcooper wrote:
        >>>>>>> Outside the USA, we have a few more hoops to jump through, but
        >>>>>>> for me, it was well worth doing. OK, so it took a week to get
        >>>>>>> the email and get it all set up and running, but in the grand
        >>>>>>> scheme of things, this really isn't an issue.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> I have suggested to the Manager of the MVP Department
        >>>>>> (responsible for LotW, and all of the awards programs) that ARRL
        >>>>>> consider the use of credit cards and/or PayPal for verification
        >>>>>> of DX stations - even if it meant charging a nominal $1.00 -
        >>>>>> $5.00 to cover the fees. LotW/MVP could use a credit card *in
        >>>>>> the name of the licensee* with a billing address that matched the
        >>>>>> license address as a check against scanned copies of the license
        >>>>>> and ID (driver's license, passport, ID card, etc.) and avoid the
        >>>>>> need to see the physical papers with *postmark* from the country
        >>>>>> of license.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Credit card address verification is very well advanced and as
        >>>>>> long as the issuing bank supports it, address verification should
        >>>>>> provide a quick and effective way to accomplish what takes an
        >>>>>> extended period of time today. A nominal fee could conceivably
        >>>>>> be less than the postage (or certainly competitive with postage
        >>>>>> rated from places like Germany) and "address verification" might
        >>>>>> provide considerable saving of staff time compared to the manual
        >>>>>> verification process. Unfortunately, there are countries/banks
        >>>>>> that do not provide address verification so those licensees would
        >>>>>> still need to use the existing procedure.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> 73,
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> ... Joe, W4TV
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >


        ------------------------------------

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