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Re: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 -- Duplicate Error Message

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  • Larry Banks
    Hi Dave, Fine with me, and good to know it s only with a logger. Unnecessary work is not a strong as overload , but it is nicer -- you guys are the
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 6, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Dave,
       
      Fine with me, and good to know it's only with a logger.  "Unnecessary work"  is not a strong as "overload", but it is nicer -- you guys are the "boss!"  :)
       
      73 -- Larry -- W1DYJ
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 5:21 PM
      Subject: RE: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 -- Duplicate Error Message

       

      >>>AA6YQ comments below

      From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Banks
      Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 3:33 PM
      To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 -- Duplicate Error Message

       

      Hi Robert and Dave,

      Thanks for the full explanation, and note that I changed the subject line. 

      So if I understand the scenario properly, this message will be seen if:

      • There are exact dupes in the file, whether sent by a logger or by via TQSL itself -and-

      >>>The scenario is limited to the case where TQSL is invoked by a logging application

      • The logger does not have a command line that includes a "correct" -a flag.

      In all other cases the logger will have a proper -a flag to handle the ham's wishes with the upload, even if there are dupes in the file.  I believe that this means the logger is in one of these states:

      • The logger has not been updated to handle 1.14 correctly
      • The logger was updated and handles 1.14 incorrectly

      So here is another attempt on my part to come up with viable language!

      The original language:

      "The program (such as a logger) that has started TrusterQSL does not appear to

      be duplicate-handling aware.  please check for an updated version of this

      software."

      My first attempt:

      The log file you are uploading using TrustedQSL includes some previously uploaded duplicate QSOs and can overload the LoTW system.  This might be caused by how you are using your logger, or there might be a more recent version of your logger that would prevent this.  Please check with your logger's vendor.

      My current attempt:

      The log file you are uploading using your QSO Logging system includes some previously uploaded duplicate QSOs and can overload the LoTW system.  There may be a more recent version of your QSO Logging system that would prevent this.  Please check with your QSO Logging system's vendor for an updated version.

      Note that I use N3FJP's ACLog and never upload dupes, so I would never see this message whether I used Scott's current version or the one that he will update to be compatible with 1.14.

      Again, I am mostly interested in "plain English" language that will be obvious worldwide and apply to the vast majority of cases, and thanks for allowing me to give my input!

      >>>Thanks! How about this for a first sentence:

      “The log file you are uploading using your QSO Logging system includes some previously uploaded QSOs (duplicates) that create unnecessary work for LoTW.”

            73,

                   Dave, AA6YQ

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 4:54 PM

      Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 is available for beta testing

       

      On 4/5/2013 9:28 AM, Larry Banks wrote:

       

      I guess I misunderstood the scenario.   Are you saying that there might not be dupes in the file -- just that the logger itself is not fully compliant?  If so, I will think about a better wording.  However, why show this error message if there are no dupes in the file?  Why not show it only when there are dupes?  (I would assume that this is because the script has not yet looked for dupes?)


      - First of all, the duplicate checker will not flag anything other than *exact* duplicates. Same certificate, call, times, frequencies, modes, etc. Near duplicates (fixed station location, different certificate) are not counted. It doesn't make mistakes. If a QSO in the database actually made it to LoTW, there is never a reason to re-upload it - of course, if a .tq8 is signed and lost before upload, we will consider it a duplicate the next time around because the assumption ("file was uploaded and is in LoTW") is wrong. If you use the "sign and upload" functionality, either via the interface or via the command line, we do not enter the QSOs into the database unless the server said "accepted" - network or server problems will not cause duplicates the next time around.

      - The popup only shows if there's dupes. It's the same popup as you get if you sign a dupe-containing file by hand via the TQSL interface, with the same options

      - It only has the additional "upgrade your logger" text if the command line doesn't include the '-a' flag with an option that either tells TQSL how to answer that popup (in which case you won't see it), or that it's safe for the user to pick any choice ('-a ask'), in which case the "upgrade your logger" text doesn't show because the program has said that all options are safe.

      - We don't mean to imply that a logger is broken for not including the flag - it's new this version. We also don't mean to imply that the logger has done something bad by sending duplicates - the duplicate-checking code is there to deal with this. But all choices on that dialog will confuse some loggers - 'cancel' will confuse loggers that (incorrectly) don't check the output of TQSL to see if it signed anything, 'strip duplicates' will confuse (a very few) loggers that make some assumption about resubmitting duplicates, and 'allow duplicates' is bad for the whole system and additionally sets a flag in the upload telling LoTW that it may process that upload at a lower priority since it is known to have duplicates (this isn't implemented yet, nor are there any plans, but it is possible with this flag).

      - In general, 'strip duplicates' is safe. Consider a logger that feeds A-Z QSOs to TQSL for signing. If A-M are already in LoTW, and duplicates are stripped, then the upload will only contain N-Z. If the logger either doesn't track "LoTW sent" or tracks it as a simple checkbox, everything is perfect - A-Z will be checked as "LoTW sent"; even if they weren't in that specific batch, they *were* sent to LoTW.

      - The only time 'strip duplicates' will cause unexpected behavior is for a particularly clever logger that does its own duplicate handling and knows if you resend a QSO - and so doing causes it to be marked as "re-sent" or something similar. Dave AA6YQ brought this problem to our attention with DXKeeper - it makes the assumption that all QSOs handed to TQSL for signing are in the output, and expects to find them in that particular batch when the next "sync" happens. Most loggers aren't so sophisticated, and don't have problems with stripping duplicates.

      Hopefully this helps explain what's going on. It's a hard thing to describe tersely enough that people might read it in a popup, and I struggled with that wording for hours. If you have alternate wordings, or just suggestions on how better to phrase it, I'm all ears.

      73,
      -Robert, KC2YWE

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      >>>AA6YQ comments below

      From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Banks
      Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:29 AM
      To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 is available for beta testing

      

      Hi Dave,

      I guess I misunderstood the scenario.   Are you saying that there might not be dupes in the file -- just that the logger itself is not fully compliant? 

      >>>The message is only displayed if one or more duplicate QSOs is encountered.

      >>>”not fully compliant” is more judgmental than I’d like; “not yet updated” is factual.

           73,

                     Dave, AA6YQ 

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Dave AA6YQ

      Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 12:46 AM

      Subject: RE: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 is available for beta testing

      +++ more AA6YQ comments below

      From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Banks
      Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 8:13 PM
      To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com

      Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 is available for beta testing

       

       Hi Dave, et.al.,

      This is not meant to be in any way a negative comment.  Perhaps using "plain English" would be better than "engineering English" for this warning.  This might be especially useful for non-English speaking hams.  (I used to develop human interfaces for medical equipment, so I have some experience here.)  Here is my attempt at this language:

      The log file you are uploading using TrustedQSL includes some previously uploaded duplicate QSOs and can overload the LoTW system.  This might be caused by how you are using your logger, or there might be a more recent version of your logger that would prevent this.  Please check with your logger's vendor.

      +++ Thanks Larry. The information we are trying to convey with the message

      "The program (such as a logger) that has started TrustedQSL does not appear to
      be duplicate-handling aware. Please check for an updated version of this
      software."

      +++ is that TQSL has been started by an application  that has not been updated to specify how TQSL should handle the duplicate QSOs it’s encountered. We’d like the user to check to see if there’s a new version of the application in question, and if not to contact the supplier of that application and encourage them to release such an update.

      +++ How would you suggest we word this?

             73,

                        Dave, AA6YQ


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    • Gary Hinson
      How about “Some of the QSOs you are trying to upload to LoTW appear to have been uploaded already (duplicates). Please avoid sending duplicate QSOs to LoTW.
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 6, 2013
      • 0 Attachment

        How about “Some of the QSOs you are trying to upload to LoTW appear to have been uploaded already (duplicates).  Please avoid sending duplicate QSOs to LoTW.  There may be a configuration option or an updated version of your logging software that does not resubmit duplicate QSOs to LoTW.”   

         

        … Possibly with a further sentence “The duplicate QSOs have been skipped this time but any new QSOs are being uploaded to LoTW” or something – I’m not quite sure what happens there! 

         

        … Possibly also: “If for some reason you NEED to upload the same QSOs to LoTW again, please see the help in tQSL for instructions on how to override the duplicate checking.  If the QSO details have changed at all, those QSOs are NOT counted as duplicates and are uploaded as normal.”

         

        73,

        Gary  ZL2iFB

         

         

         

        From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave AA6YQ
        Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013 9:22 a.m.
        To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 -- Duplicate Error Message

         




        >>>AA6YQ comments below

         

        From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Banks
        Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 3:33 PM
        To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 -- Duplicate Error Message

         

         

        Hi Robert and Dave,

         

        Thanks for the full explanation, and note that I changed the subject line. 

         

        So if I understand the scenario properly, this message will be seen if:

        • There are exact dupes in the file, whether sent by a logger or by via TQSL itself -and-

        >>>The scenario is limited to the case where TQSL is invoked by a logging application

        • The logger does not have a command line that includes a "correct" -a flag.

        In all other cases the logger will have a proper -a flag to handle the ham's wishes with the upload, even if there are dupes in the file.  I believe that this means the logger is in one of these states:

        • The logger has not been updated to handle 1.14 correctly
        • The logger was updated and handles 1.14 incorrectly

        So here is another attempt on my part to come up with viable language!

         

        The original language:

        "The program (such as a logger) that has started TrusterQSL does not appear to

        be duplicate-handling aware.  please check for an updated version of this

        software."

        My first attempt:

        The log file you are uploading using TrustedQSL includes some previously uploaded duplicate QSOs and can overload the LoTW system.  This might be caused by how you are using your logger, or there might be a more recent version of your logger that would prevent this.  Please check with your logger's vendor.

        My current attempt:

        The log file you are uploading using your QSO Logging system includes some previously uploaded duplicate QSOs and can overload the LoTW system.  There may be a more recent version of your QSO Logging system that would prevent this.  Please check with your QSO Logging system's vendor for an updated version.

        Note that I use N3FJP's ACLog and never upload dupes, so I would never see this message whether I used Scott's current version or the one that he will update to be compatible with 1.14.

         

        Again, I am mostly interested in "plain English" language that will be obvious worldwide and apply to the vast majority of cases, and thanks for allowing me to give my input!

         

        >>>Thanks! How about this for a first sentence:

         

        “The log file you are uploading using your QSO Logging system includes some previously uploaded QSOs (duplicates) that create unnecessary work for LoTW.”

         

              73,

         

                     Dave, AA6YQ

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 4:54 PM

        Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 is available for beta testing

         

         

        On 4/5/2013 9:28 AM, Larry Banks wrote:

         

        I guess I misunderstood the scenario.   Are you saying that there might not be dupes in the file -- just that the logger itself is not fully compliant?  If so, I will think about a better wording.  However, why show this error message if there are no dupes in the file?  Why not show it only when there are dupes?  (I would assume that this is because the script has not yet looked for dupes?)


        - First of all, the duplicate checker will not flag anything other than *exact* duplicates. Same certificate, call, times, frequencies, modes, etc. Near duplicates (fixed station location, different certificate) are not counted. It doesn't make mistakes. If a QSO in the database actually made it to LoTW, there is never a reason to re-upload it - of course, if a .tq8 is signed and lost before upload, we will consider it a duplicate the next time around because the assumption ("file was uploaded and is in LoTW") is wrong. If you use the "sign and upload" functionality, either via the interface or via the command line, we do not enter the QSOs into the database unless the server said "accepted" - network or server problems will not cause duplicates the next time around.

        - The popup only shows if there's dupes. It's the same popup as you get if you sign a dupe-containing file by hand via the TQSL interface, with the same options

        - It only has the additional "upgrade your logger" text if the command line doesn't include the '-a' flag with an option that either tells TQSL how to answer that popup (in which case you won't see it), or that it's safe for the user to pick any choice ('-a ask'), in which case the "upgrade your logger" text doesn't show because the program has said that all options are safe.

        - We don't mean to imply that a logger is broken for not including the flag - it's new this version. We also don't mean to imply that the logger has done something bad by sending duplicates - the duplicate-checking code is there to deal with this. But all choices on that dialog will confuse some loggers - 'cancel' will confuse loggers that (incorrectly) don't check the output of TQSL to see if it signed anything, 'strip duplicates' will confuse (a very few) loggers that make some assumption about resubmitting duplicates, and 'allow duplicates' is bad for the whole system and additionally sets a flag in the upload telling LoTW that it may process that upload at a lower priority since it is known to have duplicates (this isn't implemented yet, nor are there any plans, but it is possible with this flag).

        - In general, 'strip duplicates' is safe. Consider a logger that feeds A-Z QSOs to TQSL for signing. If A-M are already in LoTW, and duplicates are stripped, then the upload will only contain N-Z. If the logger either doesn't track "LoTW sent" or tracks it as a simple checkbox, everything is perfect - A-Z will be checked as "LoTW sent"; even if they weren't in that specific batch, they *were* sent to LoTW.

        - The only time 'strip duplicates' will cause unexpected behavior is for a particularly clever logger that does its own duplicate handling and knows if you resend a QSO - and so doing causes it to be marked as "re-sent" or something similar. Dave AA6YQ brought this problem to our attention with DXKeeper - it makes the assumption that all QSOs handed to TQSL for signing are in the output, and expects to find them in that particular batch when the next "sync" happens. Most loggers aren't so sophisticated, and don't have problems with stripping duplicates.

        Hopefully this helps explain what's going on. It's a hard thing to describe tersely enough that people might read it in a popup, and I struggled with that wording for hours. If you have alternate wordings, or just suggestions on how better to phrase it, I'm all ears.

        73,
        -Robert, KC2YWE

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------

         

        >>>AA6YQ comments below

        From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Banks
        Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:29 AM
        To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 is available for beta testing

        

        Hi Dave,

        I guess I misunderstood the scenario.   Are you saying that there might not be dupes in the file -- just that the logger itself is not fully compliant? 

        >>>The message is only displayed if one or more duplicate QSOs is encountered.

        >>>”not fully compliant” is more judgmental than I’d like; “not yet updated” is factual.

             73,

                       Dave, AA6YQ 

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Dave AA6YQ

        Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 12:46 AM

        Subject: RE: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 is available for beta testing

        +++ more AA6YQ comments below

        From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Banks
        Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 8:13 PM
        To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com

        Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] "Trusted QSL" version 1.14 is available for beta testing

         

         Hi Dave, et.al.,

        This is not meant to be in any way a negative comment.  Perhaps using "plain English" would be better than "engineering English" for this warning.  This might be especially useful for non-English speaking hams.  (I used to develop human interfaces for medical equipment, so I have some experience here.)  Here is my attempt at this language:

        The log file you are uploading using TrustedQSL includes some previously uploaded duplicate QSOs and can overload the LoTW system.  This might be caused by how you are using your logger, or there might be a more recent version of your logger that would prevent this.  Please check with your logger's vendor.

        +++ Thanks Larry. The information we are trying to convey with the message

        "The program (such as a logger) that has started TrustedQSL does not appear to
        be duplicate-handling aware. Please check for an updated version of this
        software."

        +++ is that TQSL has been started by an application  that has not been updated to specify how TQSL should handle the duplicate QSOs it’s encountered. We’d like the user to check to see if there’s a new version of the application in question, and if not to contact the supplier of that application and encourage them to release such an update.

        +++ How would you suggest we word this?

               73,

                          Dave, AA6YQ

         


        No virus found in this message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5728 - Release Date: 04/06/13





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