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Upgrades Coming To LOTW

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  • gatorman_71
    The Delta Division Director s update this morning addressed LOTW. Here is part of what Dave, K5UZ had to say. Hopefully you are getting the same news from
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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      The Delta Division Director's update this morning addressed LOTW. Here is part of what Dave, K5UZ had to say. Hopefully you are getting the same news from your representatives.

      "At last week's Administration and Finance Committee
      meeting, staff was authorized to replace the old magnetic drives with
      faster digital units. The change-over and upgrade will take a few
      weeks as staff wants to 1.)keep the old units for back-up data and 2.)
      Allow for systems testing and comparison. This process should take
      approximately eight weeks; therefore I now pose the question: Isn't
      it time for a software upgrade to go along with the new LOTW hardware?
      Please let your Director know what you think on this issue as it
      certainly is an opportune time to get this fine membership service
      adjusted and running the way it should!"

      My response to Dave was "yes," in terms of the software if we need it. I also suggested better communication by HQ in terms of what is going on with the system. Further, I personally think we have several members who are experienced in this technology who could, would or should volunteer to sit on a committee and give the League some guidance and validate the direction they plan to take with LOTW.
      Several heads are sometimes better than two or three.

      Steve, N4JQQ
    • Jim
      Thanks so much for sharing this. This is a beginning! Jim Wb4ctx
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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        Thanks so much for sharing this. This is a beginning!
        Jim
        Wb4ctx

        --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, "gatorman_71" <crownhaven@...> wrote:
        >
        > The Delta Division Director's update this morning addressed LOTW. Here is part of what Dave, K5UZ had to say. Hopefully you are getting the same news from your representatives.
        >
        > "At last week's Administration and Finance Committee
        > meeting, staff was authorized to replace the old magnetic drives with
        > faster digital units. The change-over and upgrade will take a few
        > weeks as staff wants to 1.)keep the old units for back-up data and 2.)
        > Allow for systems testing and comparison. This process should take
        > approximately eight weeks; therefore I now pose the question: Isn't
        > it time for a software upgrade to go along with the new LOTW hardware?
        > Please let your Director know what you think on this issue as it
        > certainly is an opportune time to get this fine membership service
        > adjusted and running the way it should!"
        >
        > My response to Dave was "yes," in terms of the software if we need it. I also suggested better communication by HQ in terms of what is going on with the system. Further, I personally think we have several members who are experienced in this technology who could, would or should volunteer to sit on a committee and give the League some guidance and validate the direction they plan to take with LOTW.
        > Several heads are sometimes better than two or three.
        >
        > Steve, N4JQQ
        >
      • Brian Alsop
        There seems to be no recognition of the opportunity income lost by the delays. It certainly isn t zero.Since the crowd apparently expects instant
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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          There seems to be no recognition of the "opportunity" income lost by the
          delays. It certainly isn't zero.

          Since the crowd apparently expects "instant gratification" on getting
          the QSL's, it is likely that they will also seek instant gratification
          by submitting for awards rapidly.

          73 de Brian/K3KO


          On 11/27/2012 15:06, Jim wrote:
          >
          > Thanks so much for sharing this. This is a beginning!
          > Jim
          > Wb4ctx
          >
          > --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ARRL-LOTW%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "gatorman_71" <crownhaven@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > The Delta Division Director's update this morning addressed LOTW.
          > Here is part of what Dave, K5UZ had to say. Hopefully you are getting
          > the same news from your representatives.
          > >
          > > "At last week's Administration and Finance Committee
          > > meeting, staff was authorized to replace the old magnetic drives with
          > > faster digital units. The change-over and upgrade will take a few
          > > weeks as staff wants to 1.)keep the old units for back-up data and 2.)
          > > Allow for systems testing and comparison. This process should take
          > > approximately eight weeks; therefore I now pose the question: Isn't
          > > it time for a software upgrade to go along with the new LOTW hardware?
          > > Please let your Director know what you think on this issue as it
          > > certainly is an opportune time to get this fine membership service
          > > adjusted and running the way it should!"
          > >
          > > My response to Dave was "yes," in terms of the software if we need
          > it. I also suggested better communication by HQ in terms of what is
          > going on with the system. Further, I personally think we have several
          > members who are experienced in this technology who could, would or
          > should volunteer to sit on a committee and give the League some guidance
          > and validate the direction they plan to take with LOTW.
          > > Several heads are sometimes better than two or three.
          > >
          > > Steve, N4JQQ
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this message.
          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
          > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2629/5422 - Release Date: 11/27/12
          >




          -----
          No virus found in this message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2629/5422 - Release Date: 11/27/12
        • Joe Subich, W4TV
          This is marginally good news ... at least they are trying to do something. However, I m not sure simply changing from rotating media (traditional hard drives)
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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            This is marginally good news ... at least they are trying to
            do something. However, I'm not sure simply changing from
            rotating media (traditional hard drives) to solid state drives
            is really going to address the response time problems. It will
            certainly not address problems with lack of communication (no
            status reports on uploaded files) and processing capacity.

            The main stumbling block is that LotW is a tertiary priority for the
            IT department which manages the publishing systems, the e-commerce
            systems, the general web site and the administrative systems.

            LotW needs a serious update to deal with performance issues
            (perhaps even an upgraded database schema more suited to the
            size of the database), user interface issues (more communication
            and status reports), and capacity (so we don't see three to four
            day delays a dozen times a year). Unfortunately, those issues
            simply can't be addressed responsibly and in a reasonable time
            frame by an IT department for whom LotW is a "fill in the down
            time" priority.

            73,

            ... Joe, W4TV


            On 11/27/2012 7:55 AM, gatorman_71 wrote:
            > The Delta Division Director's update this morning addressed LOTW. Here is part of what Dave, K5UZ had to say. Hopefully you are getting the same news from your representatives.
            >
            > "At last week's Administration and Finance Committee
            > meeting, staff was authorized to replace the old magnetic drives with
            > faster digital units. The change-over and upgrade will take a few
            > weeks as staff wants to 1.)keep the old units for back-up data and 2.)
            > Allow for systems testing and comparison. This process should take
            > approximately eight weeks; therefore I now pose the question: Isn't
            > it time for a software upgrade to go along with the new LOTW hardware?
            > Please let your Director know what you think on this issue as it
            > certainly is an opportune time to get this fine membership service
            > adjusted and running the way it should!"
            >
            > My response to Dave was "yes," in terms of the software if we need it. I also suggested better communication by HQ in terms of what is going on with the system. Further, I personally think we have several members who are experienced in this technology who could, would or should volunteer to sit on a committee and give the League some guidance and validate the direction they plan to take with LOTW.
            > Several heads are sometimes better than two or three.
            >
            > Steve, N4JQQ
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • David Levine
            So by profession I m a technologist in IT and the following sounds like it came from someone who has no idea of what they were saying: staff was authorized to
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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              So by profession I'm a technologist in IT and the following sounds
              like it came from someone who has no idea of what they were saying:
              "staff was authorized to replace the old magnetic drives with faster
              digital units"
              Are they referencing moving from traditional hard disks to SSD? If so,
              why wouldn't they say that - who calls it magnetic drives and digital
              units unless you go back to these days -
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25qNWDJBuks

              Though "the changeover will take a few weeks" the info (at least
              posted to the group here) didn't indicate when that might start. A few
              weeks from when?

              I agree with W4TV's position here and though there might be some
              relief if the reading/writing of data was the *current* bottleneck,
              but that doesn't address the overall architecture which appears
              lacking by today's standards and doesn't cover the poor communications
              or indication that "nothing was lost" since there are daily/hourly
              reports here of data submitted weeks ago which was never processed
              (and will never be processed based on my similar experiences with lost
              data uploads).

              K2DSL - David

              P.S. Can't wait for HIS (Head in Sand) K0HB reply that there's nothing
              wrong and how many letters did the post office lose so it's ok that
              the ARRL loses QSLs too.


              On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:55 AM, gatorman_71 <crownhaven@...> wrote:
              > The Delta Division Director's update this morning addressed LOTW. Here is part of what Dave, K5UZ had to say. Hopefully you are getting the same news from your representatives.
              >
              > "At last week's Administration and Finance Committee
              > meeting, staff was authorized to replace the old magnetic drives with
              > faster digital units. The change-over and upgrade will take a few
              > weeks as staff wants to 1.)keep the old units for back-up data and 2.)
              > Allow for systems testing and comparison. This process should take
              > approximately eight weeks; therefore I now pose the question: Isn't
              > it time for a software upgrade to go along with the new LOTW hardware?
              > Please let your Director know what you think on this issue as it
              > certainly is an opportune time to get this fine membership service
              > adjusted and running the way it should!"
              >
              > My response to Dave was "yes," in terms of the software if we need it. I also suggested better communication by HQ in terms of what is going on with the system. Further, I personally think we have several members who are experienced in this technology who could, would or should volunteer to sit on a committee and give the League some guidance and validate the direction they plan to take with LOTW.
              > Several heads are sometimes better than two or three.
              >
              > Steve, N4JQQ
            • Dick Flanagan
              Faster disks always sounds good, but to experienced IT wonks (I used to be one a long time ago. No guarantees on current technology, however) faster RMS
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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                "Faster disks" always sounds good, but to experienced IT wonks (I used
                to be one a long time ago. No guarantees on current technology, however)
                faster RMS would be wasted on a compute-bound process. I sincerely hope
                the ARRL IT department has done its due diligence to determine exactly
                where the bottle-necks areand they are not just taking a shotgun approach.

                Also, making both hardware and software changes simultaneously is a
                recipe for disaster. One at a time, please.

                Dick

                --
                Dick Flanagan K7VC
                dick@...
              • Mickey Baker
                Kudos to the Delta Division director for communicating SOMETHING. There has been no official communication directly from ARRL HQ. I was at a hamfest last
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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                  Kudos to the Delta Division director for communicating SOMETHING. There has been no official communication directly from ARRL HQ. I was at a hamfest last Saturday and spoke with my ARRL SM who told me that he had noted over 20 in-person complaints about LOTW.

                  I wrote my division director and have heard nothing.

                  Let's hope that the ARRL is making a wise infrastructure choice to build for future growth with a managed array and that they're not just buying a fistful of SSD from Best Buy. It would be nice to have some detail.


                  On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:28 PM, David Levine <david_yahoo@...> wrote:
                   

                  So by profession I'm a technologist in IT and the following sounds
                  like it came from someone who has no idea of what they were saying:


                  "staff was authorized to replace the old magnetic drives with faster
                  digital units"
                  Are they referencing moving from traditional hard disks to SSD? If so,
                  why wouldn't they say that - who calls it magnetic drives and digital
                  units unless you go back to these days -
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25qNWDJBuks

                  Though "the changeover will take a few weeks" the info (at least
                  posted to the group here) didn't indicate when that might start. A few
                  weeks from when?

                  I agree with W4TV's position here and though there might be some
                  relief if the reading/writing of data was the *current* bottleneck,
                  but that doesn't address the overall architecture which appears
                  lacking by today's standards and doesn't cover the poor communications
                  or indication that "nothing was lost" since there are daily/hourly
                  reports here of data submitted weeks ago which was never processed
                  (and will never be processed based on my similar experiences with lost
                  data uploads).

                  K2DSL - David

                  P.S. Can't wait for HIS (Head in Sand) K0HB reply that there's nothing
                  wrong and how many letters did the post office lose so it's ok that
                  the ARRL loses QSLs too.


                  On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:55 AM, gatorman_71 <crownhaven@...> wrote:
                  > The Delta Division Director's update this morning addressed LOTW. Here is part of what Dave, K5UZ had to say. Hopefully you are getting the same news from your representatives.
                  >
                  > "At last week's Administration and Finance Committee
                  > meeting, staff was authorized to replace the old magnetic drives with
                  > faster digital units. The change-over and upgrade will take a few
                  > weeks as staff wants to 1.)keep the old units for back-up data and 2.)
                  > Allow for systems testing and comparison. This process should take
                  > approximately eight weeks; therefore I now pose the question: Isn't
                  > it time for a software upgrade to go along with the new LOTW hardware?
                  > Please let your Director know what you think on this issue as it
                  > certainly is an opportune time to get this fine membership service
                  > adjusted and running the way it should!"
                  >
                  > My response to Dave was "yes," in terms of the software if we need it. I also suggested better communication by HQ in terms of what is going on with the system. Further, I personally think we have several members who are experienced in this technology who could, would or should volunteer to sit on a committee and give the League some guidance and validate the direction they plan to take with LOTW.
                  > Several heads are sometimes better than two or three.
                  >
                  > Steve, N4JQQ




                  --
                  Mickey Baker, N4MB
                  Fort Lauderdale, FL
                  “Tell me, and I will listen. Show me, and I will understand. Involve me, and I will learn.” Teton Lakota, American Indian Saying.
                • Crownhaven
                  Mickey, thanks for the civil response. All of you IT experts should contact the ARRL and volunteer to give them a hand if you re so smart and they are so
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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                    Mickey, thanks for the civil response. All of you IT experts should
                    contact the ARRL and volunteer to give them a hand if you're so smart
                    and they are so stupid. I commend my Division Director for coming out
                    with SOMETHING. And, he probably doesn't know what he is talking
                    about. I don't think he is actually an "IT expert." Just an unpaid
                    volunteer trying to make some headway. Some of you guys are becoming
                    very boring.

                    Steve, N4JQQ
                  • Dave Cole
                    OK, no one else is going to say it, so I will... ===RANT MODE ON=== Here is the bottom line for help from the amateur community with regards to LoTW. The ARRL
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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                      OK, no one else is going to say it, so I will...
                      ===RANT MODE ON===
                      Here is the bottom line for help from the amateur community with regards
                      to LoTW.

                      The ARRL will not allow a volunteer to build a system then walk from it.
                      I managed an IT department for a small to mid sized company, and the
                      last thing I would want is a stranger in my LAN, touching my equipment,
                      then leaving, without a bond, and someone to sue if the person plants a
                      virus, or is just stupid and mucks things up totally... Especially if
                      he/she came to my attention carping about the current system on a mail
                      list...

                      All the volunteering in the world is not going to do any good... All of
                      the pro IT guys volunteering should know this already... The act of
                      telling everyone you are ready to step up and volunteer is somewhat
                      misleading to the non IT folk, we all know that the ARRL is not going to
                      accept your offer. All you are doing is telling everybody that you are
                      capable of fixing it by offering your services, when you know they will
                      not be accepted...

                      Lets let the ARRL do their work, they obviously know there is a problem,
                      and they appear to be taking some steps to correct it... Only time will
                      tell if they are taking the correct steps...

                      Yes the ARRL is totally insane for handling it the way they have PR
                      wise. Hopefully they will learn from this mistake in both fields, PR
                      and IT.
                      ===RANT MODE OFF===
                      This is not directed at any one person...

                      --
                      73's and Thanks,
                      Dave
                      http://www.nk7z.net for equipment reviews, propagation, and more...


                      On Tue, 2012-11-27 at 18:54 -0600, Crownhaven wrote:
                      > Mickey, thanks for the civil response. All of you IT experts should
                      > contact the ARRL and volunteer to give them a hand if you're so smart
                      > and they are so stupid. I commend my Division Director for coming out
                      > with SOMETHING. And, he probably doesn't know what he is talking
                      > about. I don't think he is actually an "IT expert." Just an unpaid
                      > volunteer trying to make some headway. Some of you guys are becoming
                      > very boring.
                      >
                      > Steve, N4JQQ
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Larry Banks
                      Thanks Dave, I have come close to saying this but have held my tongue. I also have been very involved with various IT groups over my career and still am --
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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                        Thanks Dave,
                         
                        I have come close to saying this but have held my tongue.  I also have been very involved with various IT groups over my career and still am -- and not one would allow a volunteer -- no matter how good -- to work on their systems without Legal PSAs, non-Disclosures, firm contracts, etc. 
                         
                        Also, if people have been reading this reflector closely, they will know that ARRL's CEO -- Dave, K1ZZ -- is a Contester, DXer, and heavy LoTW user, and knows all about these issues from our viewpoint, as well as from the ARRL's viewpoint.  I'm know many other ARRL officers and employees are also users.
                         
                        For the record, I use N3FJP's ACLog, upload from 1 to many (contest) QSOs about once/week, and have neither lost a single upload, nor had an upload happen out of order.  And they happen in about the time period that is advertised on the LoTW home page.
                         
                        73 -- Larry -- W1DYJ
                        ---------------------------------------------------
                        Larry Banks
                        Amateur Extra
                        Licensed since 1962
                        W1DYJ since 1966
                         
                        Woburn, Massachusetts: FN42kl
                        Harpswell, Maine: FN43xs
                        ARRL Diamond Club Member
                        DXCC       WAS       WAC       VUCC
                                   QCWA              1010
                        YCCC  PARC  MMRA  MARA  NEWS
                        larryb@...
                        http://www.qsl.net/w1dyj/
                        --------------------------------------------------
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Dave Cole
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 8:26 PM
                        Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW

                         

                        OK, no one else is going to say it, so I will...
                        ===RANT MODE ON===
                        Here is the bottom line for help from the amateur community with regards
                        to LoTW.

                        The ARRL will not allow a volunteer to build a system then walk from it.
                        I managed an IT department for a small to mid sized company, and the
                        last thing I would want is a stranger in my LAN, touching my equipment,
                        then leaving, without a bond, and someone to sue if the person plants a
                        virus, or is just stupid and mucks things up totally... Especially if
                        he/she came to my attention carping about the current system on a mail
                        list...

                        All the volunteering in the world is not going to do any good... All of
                        the pro IT guys volunteering should know this already... The act of
                        telling everyone you are ready to step up and volunteer is somewhat
                        misleading to the non IT folk, we all know that the ARRL is not going to
                        accept your offer. All you are doing is telling everybody that you are
                        capable of fixing it by offering your services, when you know they will
                        not be accepted...

                        Lets let the ARRL do their work, they obviously know there is a problem,
                        and they appear to be taking some steps to correct it... Only time will
                        tell if they are taking the correct steps...

                        Yes the ARRL is totally insane for handling it the way they have PR
                        wise. Hopefully they will learn from this mistake in both fields, PR
                        and IT.
                        ===RANT MODE OFF===
                        This is not directed at any one person...

                        --
                        73's and Thanks,
                        Dave
                        http://www.nk7z.net for equipment reviews, propagation, and more...

                        On Tue, 2012-11-27 at 18:54 -0600, Crownhaven wrote:
                        > Mickey, thanks for the civil response. All of you IT experts should
                        > contact the ARRL and volunteer to give them a hand if you're so smart
                        > and they are so stupid. I commend my Division Director for coming out
                        > with SOMETHING. And, he probably doesn't know what he is talking
                        > about. I don't think he is actually an "IT expert." Just an unpaid
                        > volunteer trying to make some headway. Some of you guys are becoming
                        > very boring.
                        >
                        > Steve, N4JQQ
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >

                      • Dave AA6YQ
                        ... From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Larry Banks Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:07 PM To:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          >>>AA6YQ comments below

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                          Of Larry Banks
                          Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:07 PM
                          To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW

                          I have come close to saying this but have held my tongue. I also have been
                          very involved with various IT groups over my career and still am -- and not
                          one would allow a volunteer -- no matter how good -- to work on their
                          systems without Legal PSAs, non-Disclosures, firm contracts, etc.

                          >>>LotW was designed by a group of volunteers, none of whom are now involved
                          in its ongoing development, maintenance, or operation. Several components of
                          LotW are developed as open source, with multiple contributors not formally
                          associated with the ARRL or LotW.


                          Also, if people have been reading this reflector closely, they will know
                          that ARRL's CEO -- Dave, K1ZZ -- is a Contester, DXer, and heavy LoTW user,
                          and knows all about these issues from our viewpoint, as well as from the
                          ARRL's viewpoint. I'm know many other ARRL officers and employees are also
                          users.

                          For the record, I use N3FJP's ACLog, upload from 1 to many (contest) QSOs
                          about once/week, and have neither lost a single upload, nor had an upload
                          happen out of order. And they happen in about the time period that is
                          advertised on the LoTW home page.

                          >>>If you know anything about IT, then you know that one user's anecdotal
                          success means nothing in the face of many failure reports from many users of
                          many different logging applications. Success is no users experiencing
                          failures, not one user proclaiming "it works for me".

                          73,

                          Dave, AA6YQ
                        • Radio Station K0HB
                          It works for me! 73, de Hans, K0HB -- Just a boy and his radio
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            It works for me!

                            73,

                            de Hans, K0HB
                            --
                            "Just a boy and his radio"


                            On Nov 27, 2012, at 19:20, "Dave AA6YQ" <aa6yq@...> wrote:

                             

                            >>>AA6YQ comments below

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                            Of Larry Banks
                            Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:07 PM
                            To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW

                            I have come close to saying this but have held my tongue. I also have been
                            very involved with various IT groups over my career and still am -- and not
                            one would allow a volunteer -- no matter how good -- to work on their
                            systems without Legal PSAs, non-Disclosures, firm contracts, etc.

                            >>>LotW was designed by a group of volunteers, none of whom are now involved
                            in its ongoing development, maintenance, or operation. Several components of
                            LotW are developed as open source, with multiple contributors not formally
                            associated with the ARRL or LotW.

                            Also, if people have been reading this reflector closely, they will know
                            that ARRL's CEO -- Dave, K1ZZ -- is a Contester, DXer, and heavy LoTW user,
                            and knows all about these issues from our viewpoint, as well as from the
                            ARRL's viewpoint. I'm know many other ARRL officers and employees are also
                            users.

                            For the record, I use N3FJP's ACLog, upload from 1 to many (contest) QSOs
                            about once/week, and have neither lost a single upload, nor had an upload
                            happen out of order. And they happen in about the time period that is
                            advertised on the LoTW home page.

                            >>>If you know anything about IT, then you know that one user's anecdotal
                            success means nothing in the face of many failure reports from many users of
                            many different logging applications. Success is no users experiencing
                            failures, not one user proclaiming "it works for me".

                            73,

                            Dave, AA6YQ

                          • Larry Banks
                            Perhaps ARRL has learned NOT to use volunteers, my argument exactly... 73 -- Larry -- W1DYJ ... From: Dave AA6YQ To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday,
                            Message 13 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012
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                              Perhaps ARRL has learned NOT to use volunteers, my argument exactly...
                               
                              73 -- Larry -- W1DYJ
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:20 PM
                              Subject: RE: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW

                               

                              >>>AA6YQ comments below

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                              Of Larry Banks
                              Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:07 PM
                              To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW

                              I have come close to saying this but have held my tongue. I also have been
                              very involved with various IT groups over my career and still am -- and not
                              one would allow a volunteer -- no matter how good -- to work on their
                              systems without Legal PSAs, non-Disclosures, firm contracts, etc.

                              >>>LotW was designed by a group of volunteers, none of whom are now involved
                              in its ongoing development, maintenance, or operation. Several components of
                              LotW are developed as open source, with multiple contributors not formally
                              associated with the ARRL or LotW.

                              Also, if people have been reading this reflector closely, they will know
                              that ARRL's CEO -- Dave, K1ZZ -- is a Contester, DXer, and heavy LoTW user,
                              and knows all about these issues from our viewpoint, as well as from the
                              ARRL's viewpoint. I'm know many other ARRL officers and employees are also
                              users.

                              For the record, I use N3FJP's ACLog, upload from 1 to many (contest) QSOs
                              about once/week, and have neither lost a single upload, nor had an upload
                              happen out of order. And they happen in about the time period that is
                              advertised on the LoTW home page.

                              >>>If you know anything about IT, then you know that one user's anecdotal
                              success means nothing in the face of many failure reports from many users of
                              many different logging applications. Success is no users experiencing
                              failures, not one user proclaiming "it works for me".

                              73,

                              Dave, AA6YQ

                            • Thomas
                              So we now have Dave AA6YQ with Hans K0HB as ARRL LOTW cheer leaders with no LOTW issues. If you have no issues with LOTW then stop posting to the group and go
                              Message 14 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                So we now have Dave AA6YQ with Hans K0HB as ARRL LOTW cheer leaders with no LOTW issues. If you have no issues with LOTW then stop posting to the group and go DX or something so you can upload new contacts without issues.

                                I also use ACLog v3.3 also and have had nothing but problems with LOTW.

                                73,
                                Thomas NZ4O

                                --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, "Dave AA6YQ" <aa6yq@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >>>AA6YQ comments below
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                > Of Larry Banks
                                > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:07 PM
                                > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW
                                >
                                > I have come close to saying this but have held my tongue. I also have been
                                > very involved with various IT groups over my career and still am -- and not
                                > one would allow a volunteer -- no matter how good -- to work on their
                                > systems without Legal PSAs, non-Disclosures, firm contracts, etc.
                                >
                                > >>>LotW was designed by a group of volunteers, none of whom are now involved
                                > in its ongoing development, maintenance, or operation. Several components of
                                > LotW are developed as open source, with multiple contributors not formally
                                > associated with the ARRL or LotW.
                                >
                                >
                                > Also, if people have been reading this reflector closely, they will know
                                > that ARRL's CEO -- Dave, K1ZZ -- is a Contester, DXer, and heavy LoTW user,
                                > and knows all about these issues from our viewpoint, as well as from the
                                > ARRL's viewpoint. I'm know many other ARRL officers and employees are also
                                > users.
                                >
                                > For the record, I use N3FJP's ACLog, upload from 1 to many (contest) QSOs
                                > about once/week, and have neither lost a single upload, nor had an upload
                                > happen out of order. And they happen in about the time period that is
                                > advertised on the LoTW home page.
                                >
                                > >>>If you know anything about IT, then you know that one user's anecdotal
                                > success means nothing in the face of many failure reports from many users of
                                > many different logging applications. Success is no users experiencing
                                > failures, not one user proclaiming "it works for me".
                                >
                                > 73,
                                >
                                > Dave, AA6YQ
                                >
                              • Kenneth Grimm
                                You misrepresent Dave s position. He has never suggested that there were no problems with LOTW. In fact, just the opposite. If you carefully read his
                                Message 15 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  You misrepresent Dave's position.  He has never suggested that there were no problems with LOTW.  In fact, just the opposite.  If you carefully read his messages you will see that this is true.  The quote in the message below is simply an attempt to point out that the contributions of volunteers had been incorrectly stated.  Facts instead of hyperbole is always best!

                                  73,

                                  Ken - K4XL

                                  On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Thomas <nz4o@...> wrote:
                                  So we now have Dave AA6YQ with Hans K0HB as ARRL LOTW cheer leaders with no LOTW issues. If you have no issues with LOTW then stop posting to the group and go DX or something so you can upload new contacts without issues.

                                  I also use ACLog v3.3 also and have had nothing but problems with LOTW.

                                  73,
                                  Thomas NZ4O

                                  --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, "Dave AA6YQ" <aa6yq@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >>>AA6YQ comments below
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                  > Of Larry Banks
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:07 PM
                                  > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW
                                  >
                                  > I have come close to saying this but have held my tongue.  I also have been
                                  > very involved with various IT groups over my career and still am -- and not
                                  > one would allow a volunteer -- no matter how good -- to work on their
                                  > systems without Legal PSAs, non-Disclosures, firm contracts, etc.
                                  >
                                  > >>>LotW was designed by a group of volunteers, none of whom are now involved
                                  > in its ongoing development, maintenance, or operation. Several components of
                                  > LotW are developed as open source, with multiple contributors not formally
                                  > associated with the ARRL or LotW.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Also, if people have been reading this reflector closely, they will know
                                  > that ARRL's CEO -- Dave, K1ZZ -- is a Contester, DXer, and heavy LoTW user,
                                  > and knows all about these issues from our viewpoint, as well as from the
                                  > ARRL's viewpoint.  I'm know many other ARRL officers and employees are also
                                  > users.
                                  >
                                  > For the record, I use N3FJP's ACLog, upload from 1 to many (contest) QSOs
                                  > about once/week, and have neither lost a single upload, nor had an upload
                                  > happen out of order.  And they happen in about the time period that is
                                  > advertised on the LoTW home page.
                                  >
                                  > >>>If you know anything about IT, then you know that one user's anecdotal
                                  > success means nothing in the face of many failure reports from many users of
                                  > many different logging applications. Success is no users experiencing
                                  > failures, not one user proclaiming "it works for me".
                                  >
                                  >      73,
                                  >
                                  >         Dave, AA6YQ
                                  >




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                                  --
                                  Ken - K4XL
                                  BoatAnchor Manual Archive
                                  BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com

                                • Vladimir Sidarau
                                  I did not even want to interfere but this nonsense does not stop. Moreover, instructions, what other people should do or should not do are not called for, from
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    I did not even want to interfere but this nonsense does not stop. Moreover, instructions, what other people should do or should not do are not called for, from my point of view, of course.  

                                     

                                    I have 3 accounts for 5 different call-signs totalling some 150k QSOs uploaded. I have never had any issue with LoTW. As a matter of principle last night I have re-checked all my 2012 logs uploaded (I keep them all, no big deal, just in case) against the “processed” statistics at the LoTW site. None of them has been lost.

                                     

                                    Every day I receive new confirmations.

                                     

                                    My CQ WW CW log (just some 600 QSOs, a small single band entry) has not been processed yet, no big deal, I am just waiting.

                                     

                                    I sign logs directly at tQSL and then upload through the Web-interface. And I don’t have and did not have any problem. OK, LoTW is slower than before. It is slow but it works. Or it works, but slowly, whatever. So what?

                                     

                                    What I am doing wrong?  Am I now yet another LoTW cheerleader?

                                     

                                    73,

                                     

                                    Vladimir VE3IAE

                                     

                                    ---

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    От: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] От имени Thomas
                                    Отправлено: November-28-12 8:01 AM
                                    Кому: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                    Тема: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW

                                     

                                     

                                    So we now have Dave AA6YQ with Hans K0HB as ARRL LOTW cheer leaders with no LOTW issues. If you have no issues with LOTW then stop posting to the group and go DX or something so you can upload new contacts without issues.

                                    I also use ACLog v3.3 also and have had nothing but problems with LOTW.

                                    73,
                                    Thomas NZ4O

                                    --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, "Dave AA6YQ" <aa6yq@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >>>AA6YQ comments below
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                    > Of Larry Banks
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:07 PM
                                    > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW
                                    >
                                    > I have come close to saying this but have held my tongue. I also have been
                                    > very involved with various IT groups over my career and still am -- and not
                                    > one would allow a volunteer -- no matter how good -- to work on their
                                    > systems without Legal PSAs, non-Disclosures, firm contracts, etc.
                                    >
                                    > >>>LotW was designed by a group of volunteers, none of whom are now involved
                                    > in its ongoing development, maintenance, or operation. Several components of
                                    > LotW are developed as open source, with multiple contributors not formally
                                    > associated with the ARRL or LotW.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Also, if people have been reading this reflector closely, they will know
                                    > that ARRL's CEO -- Dave, K1ZZ -- is a Contester, DXer, and heavy LoTW user,
                                    > and knows all about these issues from our viewpoint, as well as from the
                                    > ARRL's viewpoint. I'm know many other ARRL officers and employees are also
                                    > users.
                                    >
                                    > For the record, I use N3FJP's ACLog, upload from 1 to many (contest) QSOs
                                    > about once/week, and have neither lost a single upload, nor had an upload
                                    > happen out of order. And they happen in about the time period that is
                                    > advertised on the LoTW home page.
                                    >
                                    > >>>If you know anything about IT, then you know that one user's anecdotal
                                    > success means nothing in the face of many failure reports from many users of
                                    > many different logging applications. Success is no users experiencing
                                    > failures, not one user proclaiming "it works for me".
                                    >
                                    > 73,
                                    >
                                    > Dave, AA6YQ
                                    >

                                  • David Levine
                                    No it doesn t make you a cheerleader . It makes you someone that doesn t have an issue. A cheerleader is someone that denies all the reports of problems and
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      No it doesn't make you a 'cheerleader'. It makes you someone that doesn't have an issue. A 'cheerleader' is someone that denies all the reports of problems and says everything must be good because you aren't having a problem.

                                      David

                                      On Nov 28, 2012 9:20 AM, "Vladimir Sidarau" <vs.lists@...> wrote:


                                      I did not even want to interfere but this nonsense does not stop. Moreover, instructions, what other people should do or should not do are not called for, from my point of view, of course.  

                                       

                                      I have 3 accounts for 5 different call-signs totalling some 150k QSOs uploaded. I have never had any issue with LoTW. As a matter of principle last night I have re-checked all my 2012 logs uploaded (I keep them all, no big deal, just in case) against the “processed” statistics at the LoTW site. None of them has been lost.

                                       

                                      Every day I receive new confirmations.

                                       

                                      My CQ WW CW log (just some 600 QSOs, a small single band entry) has not been processed yet, no big deal, I am just waiting.

                                       

                                      I sign logs directly at tQSL and then upload through the Web-interface. And I don’t have and did not have any problem. OK, LoTW is slower than before. It is slow but it works. Or it works, but slowly, whatever. So what?

                                       

                                      What I am doing wrong?  Am I now yet another LoTW cheerleader?

                                       

                                      73,

                                       

                                      Vladimir VE3IAE

                                       

                                      ---

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                      От: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] От имени Thomas
                                      Отправлено: November-28-12 8:01 AM
                                      Кому: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                      Тема: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW

                                       

                                       

                                      So we now have Dave AA6YQ with Hans K0HB as ARRL LOTW cheer leaders with no LOTW issues. If you have no issues with LOTW then stop posting to the group and go DX or something so you can upload new contacts without issues.

                                      I also use ACLog v3.3 also and have had nothing but problems with LOTW.

                                      73,
                                      Thomas NZ4O

                                      --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, "Dave AA6YQ" <aa6yq@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >>>AA6YQ comments below
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                      > Of Larry Banks
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:07 PM
                                      > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW
                                      >
                                      > I have come close to saying this but have held my tongue. I also have been
                                      > very involved with various IT groups over my career and still am -- and not
                                      > one would allow a volunteer -- no matter how good -- to work on their
                                      > systems without Legal PSAs, non-Disclosures, firm contracts, etc.
                                      >
                                      > >>>LotW was designed by a group of volunteers, none of whom are now involved
                                      > in its ongoing development, maintenance, or operation. Several components of
                                      > LotW are developed as open source, with multiple contributors not formally
                                      > associated with the ARRL or LotW.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Also, if people have been reading this reflector closely, they will know
                                      > that ARRL's CEO -- Dave, K1ZZ -- is a Contester, DXer, and heavy LoTW user,
                                      > and knows all about these issues from our viewpoint, as well as from the
                                      > ARRL's viewpoint. I'm know many other ARRL officers and employees are also
                                      > users.
                                      >
                                      > For the record, I use N3FJP's ACLog, upload from 1 to many (contest) QSOs
                                      > about once/week, and have neither lost a single upload, nor had an upload
                                      > happen out of order. And they happen in about the time period that is
                                      > advertised on the LoTW home page.
                                      >
                                      > >>>If you know anything about IT, then you know that one user's anecdotal
                                      > success means nothing in the face of many failure reports from many users of
                                      > many different logging applications. Success is no users experiencing
                                      > failures, not one user proclaiming "it works for me".
                                      >
                                      > 73,
                                      >
                                      > Dave, AA6YQ
                                      >



                                    • Dave AA6YQ
                                      ... From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Thomas Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:01 AM To:
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        >>>AA6YQ comments below

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                        Of Thomas
                                        Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:01 AM
                                        To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Upgrades Coming To LOTW



                                        So we now have Dave AA6YQ with Hans K0HB as ARRL LOTW cheer leaders with no
                                        LOTW issues.

                                        >>>False. Yesterday, I posted this statement: "The problem is that LotW has
                                        recently started misplacing batches of QSOs uploaded in .tq8 files that were
                                        successfully uploaded."

                                        >>>See

                                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARRL-LOTW/message/16173>

                                        73,

                                        Dave, AA6YQ
                                      • Dave
                                        ... ... shitstorm. ... 73, Dave, AA6YQ
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          >>>AA6YQ comments below

                                          --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Radio Station K0HB <kzerohb@...> wrote:

                                          > It works for me!

                                          >>>Read this, Hans:

                                          <http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-s-logbook-of-the-world-bug-fix-is-on-the-way>

                                          >>>"Those who have gleefully posted "it works for me!" in response to such reports should consider this an object lesson in software engineering. There are many kinds of defects that occur only sporadically. Ideally, one employs design patterns that exclude such defects "by construction". But when a unexplained failure occurs, the correct response is to aggressively jump on it and track it down, typically by methodically instrumenting the code. If the defect is not pursued and eliminated, its rate of incidence may increase over time as the number of users and/or transactions increase. When this happens suddenly, as we saw over the past 3 weeks, the result is a classic
                                          shitstorm."

                                          >>>Low user expectations are the enemy of high quality software.

                                          >>>Amateur radio may only be a hobby, but that's no excuse for shoddy software engineering.

                                          73,

                                          Dave, AA6YQ
                                        • Radio Station K0HB
                                          I read that Dave. It still works for me. Who should I fire? 73, de Hans, K0HB -- Just a boy and his radio
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I read that Dave.  It still works for me.

                                            Who should I fire?

                                            73,

                                            de Hans, K0HB
                                            --
                                            "Just a boy and his radio"


                                            On Nov 28, 2012, at 14:31, "Dave" <aa6yq@...> wrote:

                                             

                                            >>>AA6YQ comments below

                                            --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Radio Station K0HB <kzerohb@...> wrote:

                                            > It works for me!

                                            >>>Read this, Hans:

                                            <http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-s-logbook-of-the-world-bug-fix-is-on-the-way>

                                            >>>"Those who have gleefully posted "it works for me!" in response to such reports should consider this an object lesson in software engineering. There are many kinds of defects that occur only sporadically. Ideally, one employs design patterns that exclude such defects "by construction". But when a unexplained failure occurs, the correct response is to aggressively jump on it and track it down, typically by methodically instrumenting the code. If the defect is not pursued and eliminated, its rate of incidence may increase over time as the number of users and/or transactions increase. When this happens suddenly, as we saw over the past 3 weeks, the result is a classic
                                            shitstorm."

                                            >>>Low user expectations are the enemy of high quality software.

                                            >>>Amateur radio may only be a hobby, but that's no excuse for shoddy software engineering.

                                            73,

                                            Dave, AA6YQ

                                          • Dave AA6YQ
                                            ... From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Radio Station K0HB Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 5:17 PM To:
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              
                                              >>>AA6YQ comments below
                                               
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Radio Station K0HB
                                              Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 5:17 PM
                                              To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re:"It works for me!"

                                               

                                              I read that Dave.  It still works for me.

                                              Who should I fire?
                                               
                                              >>>Yourself. That last thing any user reporting erroneous behavior should hear is "it works for me".
                                               
                                                    73,
                                               
                                                       Dave, AA6YQ 
                                               
                                               
                                              On Nov 28, 2012, at 14:31, "Dave" <aa6yq@...> wrote:

                                               

                                              >>>AA6YQ comments below

                                              --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Radio Station K0HB <kzerohb@...> wrote:

                                              > It works for me!

                                              >>>Read this, Hans:

                                              <http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-s-logbook-of-the-world-bug-fix-is-on-the-way>

                                              >>>"Those who have gleefully posted "it works for me!" in response to such reports should consider this an object lesson in software engineering. There are many kinds of defects that occur only sporadically. Ideally, one employs design patterns that exclude such defects "by construction". But when a unexplained failure occurs, the correct response is to aggressively jump on it and track it down, typically by methodically instrumenting the code. If the defect is not pursued and eliminated, its rate of incidence may increase over time as the number of users and/or transactions increase. When this happens suddenly, as we saw over the past 3 weeks, the result is a classic
                                              shitstorm."

                                              >>>Low user expectations are the enemy of high quality software.

                                              >>>Amateur radio may only be a hobby, but that's no excuse for shoddy software engineering.

                                              73,

                                              Dave, AA6YQ

                                            • Dick Flanagan
                                              I respectfully disagree, Dave. It works for me indicates that a problem is not universal and is unique to particular environments or configurations. Every
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I respectfully disagree, Dave.  "It works for me" indicates that a problem is not universal and is unique to particular environments or configurations.  Every data point has value.

                                                Dick
                                                --
                                                Dick Flanagan K7VC
                                                dick@...
                                                On 11/28/2012 3:21 PM, Dave AA6YQ wrote:
                                                
                                                >>>AA6YQ comments below
                                                 
                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Radio Station K0HB
                                                Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 5:17 PM
                                                To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re:"It works for me!"

                                                 

                                                I read that Dave.  It still works for me.

                                                Who should I fire?
                                                 
                                                >>>Yourself. That last thing any user reporting erroneous behavior should hear is "it works for me".
                                                 
                                                      73,
                                                 
                                                         Dave, AA6YQ 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                On Nov 28, 2012, at 14:31, "Dave" <aa6yq@...> wrote:

                                                 

                                                >>>AA6YQ comments below

                                                --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Radio Station K0HB <kzerohb@...> wrote:

                                                > It works for me!

                                                >>>Read this, Hans:

                                                <http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-s-logbook-of-the-world-bug-fix-is-on-the-way>

                                                >>>"Those who have gleefully posted "it works for me!" in response to such reports should consider this an object lesson in software engineering. There are many kinds of defects that occur only sporadically. Ideally, one employs design patterns that exclude such defects "by construction". But when a unexplained failure occurs, the correct response is to aggressively jump on it and track it down, typically by methodically instrumenting the code. If the defect is not pursued and eliminated, its rate of incidence may increase over time as the number of users and/or transactions increase. When this happens suddenly, as we saw over the past 3 weeks, the result is a classic
                                                shitstorm."

                                                >>>Low user expectations are the enemy of high quality software.

                                                >>>Amateur radio may only be a hobby, but that's no excuse for shoddy software engineering.

                                                73,

                                                Dave, AA6YQ


                                              • Dave AA6YQ
                                                ... From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dick Flanagan Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:42 PM To:
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  >>>AA6YQ comments below

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                                  Of Dick Flanagan
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:42 PM
                                                  To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re:"It works for me!"



                                                  I respectfully disagree, Dave. "It works for me" indicates that a problem
                                                  is not universal and is unique to particular environments or configurations.
                                                  Every data point has value.

                                                  >>>If the problem were universal, the reflector would be awash in problem
                                                  reports.

                                                  >>>LotW runs on ARRL servers and is accessed via HTTP; thus the user's
                                                  particular environment and configuration are not likely to be relevant; they
                                                  certainly weren't a factor in the Queue defect. TQSL and TQSLCert do run
                                                  locally, but these applications were never suspects.

                                                  >>>Tone is a difficult matter in online communications. "It works for me!"
                                                  can interpreted as "It's your fault, lid; RTFM" -- which discourages the
                                                  continued reporting of useful data points. I am of the "bend over backwards
                                                  to encourage communication" school of software engineering.

                                                  73,

                                                  Dave, AA6YQ

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                                  Of Radio Station K0HB
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 5:17 PM
                                                  To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re:"It works for me!"



                                                  I read that Dave. It still works for me.

                                                  Who should I fire?

                                                  >>>Yourself. That last thing any user reporting erroneous behavior should
                                                  hear is "it works for me".

                                                  73,

                                                  Dave, AA6YQ


                                                  On Nov 28, 2012, at 14:31, "Dave" <aa6yq@...> wrote:



                                                  >>>AA6YQ comments below

                                                  --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Radio Station K0HB <kzerohb@...> wrote:

                                                  > It works for me!

                                                  >>>Read this, Hans:

                                                  <http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-s-logbook-of-the-world-bug-fix-is-on-the-way>

                                                  >>>"Those who have gleefully posted "it works for me!" in response to such
                                                  reports should consider this an object lesson in software engineering. There
                                                  are many kinds of defects that occur only sporadically. Ideally, one employs
                                                  design patterns that exclude such defects "by construction". But when a
                                                  unexplained failure occurs, the correct response is to aggressively jump on
                                                  it and track it down, typically by methodically instrumenting the code. If
                                                  the defect is not pursued and eliminated, its rate of incidence may increase
                                                  over time as the number of users and/or transactions increase. When this
                                                  happens suddenly, as we saw over the past 3 weeks, the result is a classic
                                                  shitstorm."

                                                  >>>Low user expectations are the enemy of high quality software.

                                                  >>>Amateur radio may only be a hobby, but that's no excuse for shoddy
                                                  software engineering.

                                                  73,

                                                  Dave, AA6YQ
                                                • Daniel Pond
                                                  I believe that we need to commend Mike K1MK but also the software experts that pushed the issue to what seems to be an acceptable resolution for most of the
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    I believe that we need to commend Mike K1MK but also the "software experts" that pushed the issue to what seems to be an acceptable resolution for most of the LoTW users.
                                                    Working the the aerospace industry for 35 years has alerted me to the fact that software design and hardware design are not that different. Both need a good set of requirements and the requirement generators need to specify what they need. Often, the law of unintended consequences prevails, and the best designers consider what bad things
                                                    could happen and design to prevent them.
                                                    A ten year old software design, when stressed, will often manifest in what I used to refer to as the tail of the probability distribution (i.e. it works in the vast majority but not all of the possible cases).
                                                    N0TK

                                                    --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, "Dave AA6YQ" <aa6yq@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>AA6YQ comments below
                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                                    > Of Dick Flanagan
                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:42 PM
                                                    > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re:"It works for me!"
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I respectfully disagree, Dave. "It works for me" indicates that a problem
                                                    > is not universal and is unique to particular environments or configurations.
                                                    > Every data point has value.
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>If the problem were universal, the reflector would be awash in problem
                                                    > reports.
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>LotW runs on ARRL servers and is accessed via HTTP; thus the user's
                                                    > particular environment and configuration are not likely to be relevant; they
                                                    > certainly weren't a factor in the Queue defect. TQSL and TQSLCert do run
                                                    > locally, but these applications were never suspects.
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>Tone is a difficult matter in online communications. "It works for me!"
                                                    > can interpreted as "It's your fault, lid; RTFM" -- which discourages the
                                                    > continued reporting of useful data points. I am of the "bend over backwards
                                                    > to encourage communication" school of software engineering.
                                                    >
                                                    > 73,
                                                    >
                                                    > Dave, AA6YQ
                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                                    > Of Radio Station K0HB
                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 5:17 PM
                                                    > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re:"It works for me!"
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I read that Dave. It still works for me.
                                                    >
                                                    > Who should I fire?
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>Yourself. That last thing any user reporting erroneous behavior should
                                                    > hear is "it works for me".
                                                    >
                                                    > 73,
                                                    >
                                                    > Dave, AA6YQ
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > On Nov 28, 2012, at 14:31, "Dave" <aa6yq@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>AA6YQ comments below
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Radio Station K0HB <kzerohb@> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > It works for me!
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>Read this, Hans:
                                                    >
                                                    > <http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-s-logbook-of-the-world-bug-fix-is-on-the-way>
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>"Those who have gleefully posted "it works for me!" in response to such
                                                    > reports should consider this an object lesson in software engineering. There
                                                    > are many kinds of defects that occur only sporadically. Ideally, one employs
                                                    > design patterns that exclude such defects "by construction". But when a
                                                    > unexplained failure occurs, the correct response is to aggressively jump on
                                                    > it and track it down, typically by methodically instrumenting the code. If
                                                    > the defect is not pursued and eliminated, its rate of incidence may increase
                                                    > over time as the number of users and/or transactions increase. When this
                                                    > happens suddenly, as we saw over the past 3 weeks, the result is a classic
                                                    > shitstorm."
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>Low user expectations are the enemy of high quality software.
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>Amateur radio may only be a hobby, but that's no excuse for shoddy
                                                    > software engineering.
                                                    >
                                                    > 73,
                                                    >
                                                    > Dave, AA6YQ
                                                    >
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