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Email'ed QSL

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  • hb9ari
    Hello, For the 1st time (since 1970) , i received a QSL (jpg) directly via email (no eQSL service) My question: is this kind of printed QSL accepted by LoTW
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 28, 2012
    Hello,

    For the 1st time (since 1970) , i received a QSL (jpg) directly via email
    (no eQSL service)
    My question: is this kind of "printed" QSL accepted by LoTW ?

    Thank you for an answer.

    My Best 73,
    Rudi, HB9ARI
  • RonL
    Rudi, THe ARRL has a policy regarding electronic QSL s: For its awards, the ARRL does not accept electronically transmitted QSLs that are printed by the
    Message 2 of 23 , Jan 29, 2012
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      Rudi,

      THe ARRL has a policy regarding electronic QSL's:
      "For its awards, the ARRL does not accept electronically transmitted QSLs that are printed by the recipient."

      You can read the entire policy at http://www.arrl.org/files/file/DXCC/eQSL%20Policy2010.pdf

      About a year ago, I worked a ham in Hawaii who allows you to self print a QSL off his web site.

      73,
      Ron, AE5NO

      --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, hb9ari <hb9ari@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello,
      >
      > For the 1st time (since 1970) , i received a QSL (jpg) directly via email
      > (no eQSL service)
      > My question: is this kind of "printed" QSL accepted by LoTW ?
      >
      > Thank you for an answer.
      >
      > My Best 73,
      > Rudi, HB9ARI
      >
    • hb9ari
      Hi Ron, Thank you for your quick reply. All is clear and i ve read the ARRL s pdf. My best 73, Rudi, HB9ARI PS Just for the fun, if give remote access to my
      Message 3 of 23 , Jan 29, 2012
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        Hi Ron,

        Thank you for your quick reply.
        All is clear and i've read the ARRL's pdf.

        My best 73,
        Rudi, HB9ARI

        PS Just for the fun, if give "remote" access
        to my printer for my correspondent, is it ok ?


        Le 29.01.2012 16:35, RonL a écrit :
         

        Rudi,

        THe ARRL has a policy regarding electronic QSL's:
        "For its awards, the ARRL does not accept electronically transmitted QSLs that are printed by the recipient."

        You can read the entire policy at http://www.arrl.org/files/file/DXCC/eQSL%20Policy2010.pdf

        About a year ago, I worked a ham in Hawaii who allows you to self print a QSL off his web site.

        73,
        Ron, AE5NO

        --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, hb9ari <hb9ari@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello,
        >
        > For the 1st time (since 1970) , i received a QSL (jpg) directly via email
        > (no eQSL service)
        > My question: is this kind of "printed" QSL accepted by LoTW ?
        >
        > Thank you for an answer.
        >
        > My Best 73,
        > Rudi, HB9ARI
        >


      • Henk Remijn PA5KT
        The funny thing is that no one can tell if you did print or if it was printed by the sender. Paper qsl are nice for collectors but should not be accepted for
        Message 4 of 23 , Jan 29, 2012
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          The funny thing is that no one can tell if you did print or if it was printed by the sender.

          Paper qsl are nice for collectors but should not be accepted for awards. Anybody can make cards and make them look like real ones.

          73 Henk PA5KT

          Op 29-01-2012 18:36, hb9ari schreef:
          Hi Ron,

          Thank you for your quick reply.
          All is clear and i've read the ARRL's pdf.

          My best 73,
          Rudi, HB9ARI

          PS Just for the fun, if give "remote" access
          to my printer for my correspondent, is it ok ?


          Le 29.01.2012 16:35, RonL a écrit :
           

          Rudi,

          THe ARRL has a policy regarding electronic QSL's:
          "For its awards, the ARRL does not accept electronically transmitted QSLs that are printed by the recipient."

          You can read the entire policy at http://www.arrl.org/files/file/DXCC/eQSL%20Policy2010.pdf

          About a year ago, I worked a ham in Hawaii who allows you to self print a QSL off his web site.

          73,
          Ron, AE5NO

          --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, hb9ari <hb9ari@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello,
          >
          > For the 1st time (since 1970) , i received a QSL (jpg) directly via email
          > (no eQSL service)
          > My question: is this kind of "printed" QSL accepted by LoTW ?
          >
          > Thank you for an answer.
          >
          > My Best 73,
          > Rudi, HB9ARI
          >


          -- 
          Henk Remijn PA5KT
          email: pa5kt@...
          www: www.pa5kt.com
          House for sale: www.ruisdaelstraat.nl
          
          
        • Tom Wylie
          Ah - that opens a whole new question - what constitutes a QSL card?????? Tom GM4FDM ... Ah - that opens a whole new question - what constitutes a QSL
          Message 5 of 23 , Jan 29, 2012
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            Ah - that opens a whole new question - what constitutes a QSL card??????     


            Tom

            GM4FDM



            On 29/01/2012 17:58, Henk Remijn PA5KT wrote:
             

            The funny thing is that no one can tell if you did print or if it was printed by the sender.

            Paper qsl are nice for collectors but should not be accepted for awards. Anybody can make cards and make them look like real ones.

            73 Henk PA5KT

            Op 29-01-2012 18:36, hb9ari schreef:

            Hi Ron,

            Thank you for your quick reply.
            All is clear and i've read the ARRL's pdf.

            My best 73,
            Rudi, HB9ARI

            PS Just for the fun, if give "remote" access
            to my printer for my correspondent, is it ok ?


            Le 29.01.2012 16:35, RonL a écrit :
             

            Rudi,

            THe ARRL has a policy regarding electronic QSL's:
            "For its awards, the ARRL does not accept electronically transmitted QSLs that are printed by the recipient."

            You can read the entire policy at http://www.arrl.org/files/file/DXCC/eQSL%20Policy2010.pdf

            About a year ago, I worked a ham in Hawaii who allows you to self print a QSL off his web site.

            73,
            Ron, AE5NO

            --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, hb9ari <hb9ari@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello,
            >
            > For the 1st time (since 1970) , i received a QSL (jpg) directly via email
            > (no eQSL service)
            > My question: is this kind of "printed" QSL accepted by LoTW ?
            >
            > Thank you for an answer.
            >
            > My Best 73,
            > Rudi, HB9ARI
            >


            -- 
            Henk Remijn PA5KT
            email: pa5kt@...
            www: www.pa5kt.com
            House for sale: www.ruisdaelstraat.nl
            
            
          • Joe
            In the back of my mind did they not to be valid have some sort of a postmark or something? But then cards through the buro won t hmmmmm? Joe WB9SBD The
            Message 6 of 23 , Jan 29, 2012
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              In the back of my mind did they not to be valid have some sort of a postmark or something?

              But then cards through the buro won't hmmmmm?

              Joe WB9SBD
              Sig
              The Original Rolling Ball Clock
              Idle Tyme
              Idle-Tyme.com
              http://www.idle-tyme.com

              On 1/29/2012 11:58 AM, Henk Remijn PA5KT wrote:
              The funny thing is that no one can tell if you did print or if it was printed by the sender.

              Paper qsl are nice for collectors but should not be accepted for awards. Anybody can make cards and make them look like real ones.

              73 Henk PA5KT

              Op 29-01-2012 18:36, hb9ari schreef:
              Hi Ron,

              Thank you for your quick reply.
              All is clear and i've read the ARRL's pdf.

              My best 73,
              Rudi, HB9ARI

              PS Just for the fun, if give "remote" access
              to my printer for my correspondent, is it ok ?


              Le 29.01.2012 16:35, RonL a écrit :
               

              Rudi,

              THe ARRL has a policy regarding electronic QSL's:
              "For its awards, the ARRL does not accept electronically transmitted QSLs that are printed by the recipient."

              You can read the entire policy at http://www.arrl.org/files/file/DXCC/eQSL%20Policy2010.pdf

              About a year ago, I worked a ham in Hawaii who allows you to self print a QSL off his web site.

              73,
              Ron, AE5NO

              --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, hb9ari <hb9ari@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello,
              >
              > For the 1st time (since 1970) , i received a QSL (jpg) directly via email
              > (no eQSL service)
              > My question: is this kind of "printed" QSL accepted by LoTW ?
              >
              > Thank you for an answer.
              >
              > My Best 73,
              > Rudi, HB9ARI
              >


              -- 
              Henk Remijn PA5KT
              email: pa5kt@...
              www: www.pa5kt.com
              House for sale: www.ruisdaelstraat.nl
              
              
            • Wes Linscott
              Paper qsl are nice for collectors but should not be accepted for awards. What do you think was done for years before we had computers? W1LIC
              Message 7 of 23 , Jan 29, 2012
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                "Paper qsl are nice for collectors but should not be accepted for awards."

                What do you think was done for years before we had computers?

                W1LIC


              • ns0i@comcast.net
                Did you need a postmark on the card or envelope at one time long ago ?? NS0I ======= Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard:
                Message 8 of 23 , Jan 29, 2012
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                  Did you need a postmark on the card or envelope at one time long ago ??
                   
                  NS0I





                  =======
                  Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
                  (Email Guard: 9.0.0.898, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.19140)
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                • Wes Linscott
                  Nope.  As someone pointed out, cards sent via bureau had not postmark.  I got my first WAS in 1971, and there was no requirement to submit envelopes with
                  Message 9 of 23 , Jan 29, 2012
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                    Nope.  As someone pointed out, cards sent via bureau had not postmark.  I got my first WAS in 1971, and there was no requirement to submit envelopes with postmark, etc.   It was an honor system.

                    Is dishonestly more prevalent today than it was 40 or 50 years ago?

                    W1LIC




                    From: "ns0i@..." <ns0i@...>
                    To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:15 PM
                    Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Email'ed QSL

                     
                    Did you need a postmark on the card or envelope at one time long ago ??
                     
                    NS0I





                    =======
                    Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
                    (Email Guard: 9.0.0.898, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.19140)
                    http://www.pctools.com/?cclick=EmailFooterClean_51
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                  • Joe
                    That comment is sooo funny, but even more sadder that anyone would feel that way.. From the beginnings of radio of any type Paper QSL s were the one and only
                    Message 10 of 23 , Jan 29, 2012
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                      That comment is sooo funny, but even more sadder that anyone would feel that way..

                      From the beginnings of radio of any type Paper QSL's were the one and only valid verification of a contact. This computer stuff is only a very recent alternative.


                      I have well over 75 shoe boxes filled with paper QSL cards from everywhere of course!

                      Joe WB9SBD


                      Sig
                      The Original Rolling Ball Clock
                      Idle Tyme
                      Idle-Tyme.com
                      http://www.idle-tyme.com

                      On 1/29/2012 12:07 PM, Wes Linscott wrote:
                      "Paper qsl are nice for collectors but should not be accepted for awards."

                      What do you think was done for years before we had computers?

                      W1LIC


                    • RonL
                      My first QSL cards were all postcards with the address and postmark on the actual card. That has changed through the years. Now all my cards come in
                      Message 11 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
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                        My first QSL cards were all postcards with the address and postmark on the actual card. That has changed through the years. Now all my cards come in envelopes but I have never had to include a postmarked envelope as proof of authenticity.

                        According to the rules, the paper card has to be authenticated by the sender. Usually that means a signature or stamped imprint. DX stations that use QSL Managers use a stamped imprint as well.

                        Card checkers are looking for other things too; the applicant's call sign, legibility and readability and any sign of alteration.

                        73,
                        Ron, AE5NO

                        --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Wes Linscott <w1lic@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Nope.  As someone pointed out, cards sent via bureau had not postmark.  I got my first WAS in 1971, and there was no requirement to submit envelopes with postmark, etc.   It was an honor system.
                        >
                        > Is dishonestly more prevalent today than it was 40 or 50 years ago?
                        >
                        > W1LIC
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: "ns0i@..." <ns0i@...>
                        > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:15 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Email'ed QSL
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        > Did you need a postmark on the card or envelope at one
                        > time long ago ??
                        >  
                        > NS0I
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > =======
                        > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
                        > (Email Guard: 9.0.0.898, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.19140)
                        > http://www.pctools.com/?cclick=EmailFooterClean_51
                        > =======
                        >
                      • Jerry Keller (K3BZ)
                        After a while, card checkers learn to tell a legitimate card from a questionable one. If a card checker rejects a card, you can always submit it to the DXCC
                        Message 12 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
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                          After a while, card checkers learn to tell a legitimate card from a
                          questionable one. If a card checker rejects a card, you can always submit
                          it to the DXCC folks at ARRL HQ for a final determination.

                          Sometimes a card that's not accepted this month wil be accepted next month,
                          because in between the proper credentials for the DX are received by HQ.

                          There's an exception for 160M card checking. Cards for 17M QSO's often
                          state the band as "18 MHz". As I understand it, some years ago a few
                          dishonest hams were putting a "dot" in between the 1 and the 8, to make it
                          look like "1.8 MHz". It was hard to spot, and some Field Checkers were
                          willing to accept such cards as real ... either to avoid a hassle, or in a
                          few cases, in cahoots with the applicant. So HQ decided to have all 160M
                          cards sent in to HQ for review and approval, and it's been that way ever
                          since.

                          73, Jerry K3BZ

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: RonL
                          Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:29 AM
                          To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Email'ed QSL

                          My first QSL cards were all postcards with the address and postmark on the
                          actual card. That has changed through the years. Now all my cards come in
                          envelopes but I have never had to include a postmarked envelope as proof of
                          authenticity.

                          According to the rules, the paper card has to be authenticated by the
                          sender. Usually that means a signature or stamped imprint. DX stations that
                          use QSL Managers use a stamped imprint as well.

                          Card checkers are looking for other things too; the applicant's call sign,
                          legibility and readability and any sign of alteration.

                          73,
                          Ron, AE5NO

                          --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Wes Linscott <w1lic@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Nope. As someone pointed out, cards sent via bureau had not postmark.Â
                          > I got my first WAS in 1971, and there was no requirement to submit
                          > envelopes with postmark, etc.  It was an honor system.
                          >
                          > Is dishonestly more prevalent today than it was 40 or 50 years ago?
                          >
                          > W1LIC
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: "ns0i@..." <ns0i@...>
                          > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:15 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Email'ed QSL
                          >
                          >
                          > Â
                          > Did you need a postmark on the card or envelope at one
                          > time long ago ??
                          > Â
                          > NS0I
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > =======
                          > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
                          > (Email Guard: 9.0.0.898, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.19140)
                          > http://www.pctools.com/?cclick=EmailFooterClean_51
                          > =======
                          >




                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Tom Wylie
                          What constitutes a QSL card ?? Tom GM4FDM
                          Message 13 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            What constitutes a "QSL card"??


                            Tom
                            GM4FDM





                            On 30/01/2012 19:21, Jerry Keller (K3BZ) wrote:
                            >
                            > After a while, card checkers learn to tell a legitimate card from a
                            > questionable one. If a card checker rejects a card, you can always submit
                            > it to the DXCC folks at ARRL HQ for a final determination.
                            >
                            > Sometimes a card that's not accepted this month wil be accepted next
                            > month,
                            > because in between the proper credentials for the DX are received by HQ.
                            >
                            > There's an exception for 160M card checking. Cards for 17M QSO's often
                            > state the band as "18 MHz". As I understand it, some years ago a few
                            > dishonest hams were putting a "dot" in between the 1 and the 8, to
                            > make it
                            > look like "1.8 MHz". It was hard to spot, and some Field Checkers were
                            > willing to accept such cards as real ... either to avoid a hassle, or
                            > in a
                            > few cases, in cahoots with the applicant. So HQ decided to have all 160M
                            > cards sent in to HQ for review and approval, and it's been that way ever
                            > since.
                            >
                            > 73, Jerry K3BZ
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: RonL
                            > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:29 AM
                            > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ARRL-LOTW%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Email'ed QSL
                            >
                            > My first QSL cards were all postcards with the address and postmark on
                            > the
                            > actual card. That has changed through the years. Now all my cards come in
                            > envelopes but I have never had to include a postmarked envelope as
                            > proof of
                            > authenticity.
                            >
                            > According to the rules, the paper card has to be authenticated by the
                            > sender. Usually that means a signature or stamped imprint. DX stations
                            > that
                            > use QSL Managers use a stamped imprint as well.
                            >
                            > Card checkers are looking for other things too; the applicant's call
                            > sign,
                            > legibility and readability and any sign of alteration.
                            >
                            > 73,
                            > Ron, AE5NO
                            >
                            > --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ARRL-LOTW%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > Wes Linscott <w1lic@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Nope. As someone pointed out, cards sent via bureau had not postmark.Â
                            > > I got my first WAS in 1971, and there was no requirement to submit
                            > > envelopes with postmark, etc.  It was an honor system.
                            > >
                            > > Is dishonestly more prevalent today than it was 40 or 50 years ago?
                            > >
                            > > W1LIC
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > From: "ns0i@..." <ns0i@...>
                            > > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ARRL-LOTW%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:15 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Email'ed QSL
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Â
                            > > Did you need a postmark on the card or envelope at one
                            > > time long ago ??
                            > > Â
                            > > NS0I
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > =======
                            > > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
                            > > (Email Guard: 9.0.0.898, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.19140)
                            > > http://www.pctools.com/?cclick=EmailFooterClean_51
                            > > =======
                            > >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                          • Dick Flanagan
                            As a ARRL DXCC Field Card Checker I will not accept any pre-printed QSL card that does not contain some mark by the originating station operator or his
                            Message 14 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
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                              As a ARRL DXCC Field Card Checker I will not accept any pre-printed QSL
                              card that does not contain some mark by the originating station operator
                              or his manager. That mark can be the QSO data itself, a hand-written
                              note, the operator's or manager's initials, a distinctive rubber stamp
                              or anything else I can discern was not created by the original card
                              printing process.

                              I am occasionally presented with locally printed eQSL cards. My
                              suggestion to the applicant is that they mail the pre-printed cards to
                              the originating station for them to sign and return. So far this has
                              been sufficient.

                              Dick
                              --
                              Dick Flanagan K7VC
                              dick@...
                            • hb9ari
                              Hi Ron, You re correct, most of the paper QSL i ve received, direct or via bureau , are authenticated with a signature, generally the 1st name, or surname
                              Message 15 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
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                                Hi Ron,

                                You're correct, most of the paper QSL
                                i've received, direct or via "bureau",
                                are authenticated with a signature,
                                generally the 1st name, or "surname"
                                (for me, Rudi instead of Rudolf...Schaffer...).

                                Only a little percentage, may be 10 to 20%,
                                don't have a manuscript or pre-printed signature.

                                My best 73,
                                Rudi, HB9ARI



                                Le 30.01.2012 15:29, RonL a écrit :
                                 

                                My first QSL cards were all postcards with the address and postmark on the actual card. That has changed through the years. Now all my cards come in envelopes but I have never had to include a postmarked envelope as proof of authenticity.

                                According to the rules, the paper card has to be authenticated by the sender. Usually that means a signature or stamped imprint. DX stations that use QSL Managers use a stamped imprint as well.

                                Card checkers are looking for other things too; the applicant's call sign, legibility and readability and any sign of alteration.

                                73,
                                Ron, AE5NO

                                --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Wes Linscott <w1lic@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Nope.  As someone pointed out, cards sent via bureau had not postmark.  I got my first WAS in 1971, and there was no requirement to submit envelopes with postmark, etc.   It was an honor system.
                                >
                                > Is dishonestly more prevalent today than it was 40 or 50 years ago?
                                >
                                > W1LIC
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: "ns0i@..." <ns0i@...>
                                > To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:15 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Email'ed QSL
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                > Did you need a postmark on the card or envelope at one
                                > time long ago ??
                                >  
                                > NS0I
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > =======
                                > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
                                > (Email Guard: 9.0.0.898, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.19140)
                                > http://www.pctools.com/?cclick=EmailFooterClean_51
                                > =======
                                >


                              • iain macdonnell - N6ML
                                Kindof on the fringe of the topic of this list, but since we re here... Does this mean that GlobalQSL cards are not considered valid for DXCC ? ~iain / N6ML
                                Message 16 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
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                                  Kindof on the fringe of the topic of this list, but since we're here...

                                  Does this mean that GlobalQSL cards are not considered valid for DXCC ?

                                  ~iain / N6ML



                                  On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Dick Flanagan <dick@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > As a ARRL DXCC Field Card Checker I will not accept any pre-printed QSL
                                  > card that does not contain some mark by the originating station operator
                                  > or his manager. That mark can be the QSO data itself, a hand-written
                                  > note, the operator's or manager's initials, a distinctive rubber stamp
                                  > or anything else I can discern was not created by the original card
                                  > printing process.
                                  >
                                  > I am occasionally presented with locally printed eQSL cards. My
                                  > suggestion to the applicant is that they mail the pre-printed cards to
                                  > the originating station for them to sign and return. So far this has
                                  > been sufficient.
                                  >
                                  > Dick
                                  > --
                                  > Dick Flanagan K7VC
                                  > dick@...
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Earl
                                  FYI !! ... An email from Bill Moore to DXCC Card Checkers dated April 2009.. Earl N5ZM.. ... Hi All: Some of you have asked me to clarify this service and how
                                  Message 17 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
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                                    FYI !!
                                    ------------

                                    An email from Bill Moore to DXCC Card Checkers dated April 2009..

                                    Earl N5ZM..
                                    -----------

                                    Hi All:

                                    Some of you have asked me to clarify this service and how it relates to DXCC.

                                    QSLs from Global QSL are OK for DXCC. Basically, with this service you
                                    upload your log and pay for them to general your QSLs for you. It is not an
                                    E-QSL service or anything like LoTW. They do all the work for you, all you
                                    do is upload your log and pay for the service and for mailing your cards.

                                    Regards

                                    Bill Moore NC1L
                                    Awards Branch Manager
                                    -----------------------





                                    On 1/30/2012 3:12 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML wrote:
                                    > Kindof on the fringe of the topic of this list, but since we're here...
                                    >
                                    > Does this mean that GlobalQSL cards are not considered valid for DXCC ?
                                    >
                                    > ~iain / N6ML
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Dick Flanagan<dick@...> wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> As a ARRL DXCC Field Card Checker I will not accept any pre-printed QSL
                                    >> card that does not contain some mark by the originating station operator
                                    >> or his manager. That mark can be the QSO data itself, a hand-written
                                    >> note, the operator's or manager's initials, a distinctive rubber stamp
                                    >> or anything else I can discern was not created by the original card
                                    >> printing process.
                                    >>
                                    >> I am occasionally presented with locally printed eQSL cards. My
                                    >> suggestion to the applicant is that they mail the pre-printed cards to
                                    >> the originating station for them to sign and return. So far this has
                                    >> been sufficient.
                                    >>
                                    >> Dick
                                    >> --
                                    >> Dick Flanagan K7VC
                                    >> dick@...
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    --
                                    In every walk with nature, one receives far more than he seeks.
                                    John Muir..
                                    ------------

                                    Earl F. Smith - N5ZM

                                    PO Box 20065
                                    White Hall, AR 71612-0065
                                  • Tom Wylie
                                    so its not necessary to have a stamp or an initial on the cards or even a stroke of the pen from the card s owner....... tom GM4FDM
                                    Message 18 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      so its not necessary to have a stamp or an initial on the cards or even a stroke of the pen from the card's owner.......



                                      tom
                                      GM4FDM





                                      On 30/01/2012 21:40, Earl wrote:
                                      FYI !!
                                      ------------
                                      
                                      An email from Bill Moore to DXCC Card Checkers dated April 2009..
                                      
                                      Earl N5ZM..
                                      -----------
                                      
                                      Hi All:
                                      
                                      Some of you have asked me to clarify this service and how it relates to DXCC.
                                      
                                      QSLs from Global QSL are OK for DXCC. Basically, with this service you 
                                      upload your log and pay for them to general your QSLs for you. It is not an 
                                      E-QSL service or anything like LoTW. They do all the work for you, all you 
                                      do is upload your log and pay for the service and for mailing your cards.
                                      
                                      Regards
                                      
                                      Bill Moore NC1L
                                      Awards Branch Manager
                                      -----------------------
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                      On 1/30/2012 3:12 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML wrote:
                                      
                                      Kindof on the fringe of the topic of this list, but since we're here...
                                      
                                      Does this mean that GlobalQSL cards are not considered valid for DXCC ?
                                      
                                           ~iain / N6ML
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                      On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Dick Flanagan<dick@...>  wrote:
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                      As a ARRL DXCC Field Card Checker I will not accept any pre-printed QSL
                                      card that does not contain some mark by the originating station operator
                                      or his manager. That mark can be the QSO data itself, a hand-written
                                      note, the operator's or manager's initials, a distinctive rubber stamp
                                      or anything else I can discern was not created by the original card
                                      printing process.
                                      
                                      I am occasionally presented with locally printed eQSL cards. My
                                      suggestion to the applicant is that they mail the pre-printed cards to
                                      the originating station for them to sign and return. So far this has
                                      been sufficient.
                                      
                                      Dick
                                      --
                                      Dick Flanagan K7VC
                                      dick@...
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                      ------------------------------------
                                      
                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                      
                                    • dickflanagan
                                      I stand corrected, but as PC printers become capable of higher quality output, it will make detecting locally printed cards more difficult. Dick
                                      Message 19 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I stand corrected, but as PC printers become capable of higher quality output, it will make detecting locally printed cards more difficult.

                                        Dick

                                        --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Earl <n5zm@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > FYI !!
                                        > ------------
                                        >
                                        > An email from Bill Moore to DXCC Card Checkers dated April 2009..
                                        >
                                        > Earl N5ZM..
                                        > -----------
                                        >
                                        > Hi All:
                                        >
                                        > Some of you have asked me to clarify this service and how it relates to DXCC.
                                        >
                                        > QSLs from Global QSL are OK for DXCC. Basically, with this service you
                                        > upload your log and pay for them to general your QSLs for you. It is not an
                                        > E-QSL service or anything like LoTW. They do all the work for you, all you
                                        > do is upload your log and pay for the service and for mailing your cards.
                                        >
                                        > Regards
                                        >
                                        > Bill Moore NC1L
                                        > Awards Branch Manager
                                        > -----------------------
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 1/30/2012 3:12 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML wrote:
                                        > > Kindof on the fringe of the topic of this list, but since we're here...
                                        > >
                                        > > Does this mean that GlobalQSL cards are not considered valid for DXCC ?
                                        > >
                                        > > ~iain / N6ML
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Dick Flanagan<dick@...> wrote:
                                        > >>
                                        > >>
                                        > >>
                                        > >> As a ARRL DXCC Field Card Checker I will not accept any pre-printed QSL
                                        > >> card that does not contain some mark by the originating station operator
                                        > >> or his manager. That mark can be the QSO data itself, a hand-written
                                        > >> note, the operator's or manager's initials, a distinctive rubber stamp
                                        > >> or anything else I can discern was not created by the original card
                                        > >> printing process.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> I am occasionally presented with locally printed eQSL cards. My
                                        > >> suggestion to the applicant is that they mail the pre-printed cards to
                                        > >> the originating station for them to sign and return. So far this has
                                        > >> been sufficient.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Dick
                                        > >> --
                                        > >> Dick Flanagan K7VC
                                        > >> dick@...
                                        > >>
                                        > >>
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------------------------------
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > In every walk with nature, one receives far more than he seeks.
                                        > John Muir..
                                        > ------------
                                        >
                                        > Earl F. Smith - N5ZM
                                        >
                                        > PO Box 20065
                                        > White Hall, AR 71612-0065
                                        >
                                      • Joe
                                        Plus I have many cards that were made when computers were first coming out printed on Track paper and a dot matrix machine. can t get much cruder than that!
                                        Message 20 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Plus I have many cards that were made when computers were first coming out printed on Track paper and a dot matrix machine.  can't get much cruder than that!

                                          Joe WB9SBD

                                          Sig
                                          The Original Rolling Ball Clock
                                          Idle Tyme
                                          Idle-Tyme.com
                                          http://www.idle-tyme.com

                                          On 1/30/2012 4:37 PM, dickflanagan wrote:
                                          I stand corrected, but as PC printers become capable of higher quality output, it will make detecting locally printed cards more difficult.
                                          
                                          Dick
                                          
                                          --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Earl <n5zm@...> wrote:
                                          
                                          FYI !!
                                          ------------
                                          
                                          An email from Bill Moore to DXCC Card Checkers dated April 2009..
                                          
                                          Earl N5ZM..
                                          -----------
                                          
                                          Hi All:
                                          
                                          Some of you have asked me to clarify this service and how it relates to DXCC.
                                          
                                          QSLs from Global QSL are OK for DXCC. Basically, with this service you 
                                          upload your log and pay for them to general your QSLs for you. It is not an 
                                          E-QSL service or anything like LoTW. They do all the work for you, all you 
                                          do is upload your log and pay for the service and for mailing your cards.
                                          
                                          Regards
                                          
                                          Bill Moore NC1L
                                          Awards Branch Manager
                                          -----------------------
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          On 1/30/2012 3:12 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML wrote:
                                          
                                          Kindof on the fringe of the topic of this list, but since we're here...
                                          
                                          Does this mean that GlobalQSL cards are not considered valid for DXCC ?
                                          
                                               ~iain / N6ML
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Dick Flanagan<dick@...>  wrote:
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          As a ARRL DXCC Field Card Checker I will not accept any pre-printed QSL
                                          card that does not contain some mark by the originating station operator
                                          or his manager. That mark can be the QSO data itself, a hand-written
                                          note, the operator's or manager's initials, a distinctive rubber stamp
                                          or anything else I can discern was not created by the original card
                                          printing process.
                                          
                                          I am occasionally presented with locally printed eQSL cards. My
                                          suggestion to the applicant is that they mail the pre-printed cards to
                                          the originating station for them to sign and return. So far this has
                                          been sufficient.
                                          
                                          Dick
                                          --
                                          Dick Flanagan K7VC
                                          dick@...
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          ------------------------------------
                                          
                                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          -- 
                                          In every walk with nature, one receives far more than he seeks.
                                          John Muir..
                                          ------------
                                          
                                          Earl F. Smith - N5ZM
                                          
                                          PO Box 20065
                                          White Hall, AR  71612-0065
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          ------------------------------------
                                          
                                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          
                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARRL-LOTW/
                                          
                                          <*> Your email settings:
                                              Individual Email | Traditional
                                          
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                                        • Dick Flanagan
                                          I have, too, Joe, but I m pretty sure each one was initialed or marked by the originating station. I don t recall receiving any that were printed, however
                                          Message 21 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I have, too, Joe, but I'm pretty sure each one was initialed or marked
                                            by the originating station. I don't recall receiving any that were
                                            printed, however crudely, and not personalized in some way.

                                            Then again, my memory gets a little bit worse every day... :)

                                            Dick

                                            --
                                            Dick Flanagan K7VC
                                            dick@...

                                            On 1/30/2012 3:03 PM, Joe wrote:
                                            > Plus I have many cards that were made when computers were first coming
                                            > out printed on Track paper and a dot matrix machine. can't get much
                                            > cruder than that!
                                            >
                                            > Joe WB9SBD
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The Original Rolling Ball Clock
                                            > Idle Tyme
                                            > Idle-Tyme.com
                                            > http://www.idle-tyme.com
                                            >
                                            > On 1/30/2012 4:37 PM, dickflanagan wrote:
                                            >> I stand corrected, but as PC printers become capable of higher quality output, it will make detecting locally printed cards more difficult.
                                            >>
                                            >> Dick
                                            >>
                                            >> --- InARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Earl<n5zm@...> wrote:
                                            >>> FYI !!
                                            >>> ------------
                                            >>>
                                            >>> An email from Bill Moore to DXCC Card Checkers dated April 2009..
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Earl N5ZM..
                                            >>> -----------
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Hi All:
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Some of you have asked me to clarify this service and how it relates to DXCC.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> QSLs from Global QSL are OK for DXCC. Basically, with this service you
                                            >>> upload your log and pay for them to general your QSLs for you. It is not an
                                            >>> E-QSL service or anything like LoTW. They do all the work for you, all you
                                            >>> do is upload your log and pay for the service and for mailing your cards.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Regards
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Bill Moore NC1L
                                            >>> Awards Branch Manager
                                            >>> -----------------------
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>>
                                            >>> On 1/30/2012 3:12 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML wrote:
                                            >>>> Kindof on the fringe of the topic of this list, but since we're here...
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> Does this mean that GlobalQSL cards are not considered valid for DXCC ?
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> ~iain / N6ML
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Dick Flanagan<dick@...> wrote:
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>> As a ARRL DXCC Field Card Checker I will not accept any pre-printed QSL
                                            >>>>> card that does not contain some mark by the originating station operator
                                            >>>>> or his manager. That mark can be the QSO data itself, a hand-written
                                            >>>>> note, the operator's or manager's initials, a distinctive rubber stamp
                                            >>>>> or anything else I can discern was not created by the original card
                                            >>>>> printing process.
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>> I am occasionally presented with locally printed eQSL cards. My
                                            >>>>> suggestion to the applicant is that they mail the pre-printed cards to
                                            >>>>> the originating station for them to sign and return. So far this has
                                            >>>>> been sufficient.
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>> Dick
                                            >>>>> --
                                            >>>>> Dick Flanagan K7VC
                                            >>>>> dick@...
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> ------------------------------------
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>> --
                                            >>> In every walk with nature, one receives far more than he seeks.
                                            >>> John Muir..
                                            >>> ------------
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Earl F. Smith - N5ZM
                                            >>>
                                            >>> PO Box 20065
                                            >>> White Hall, AR 71612-0065
                                            >>>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> ------------------------------------
                                            >>
                                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                          • N4DW - Dave
                                            I halfway take exception to that. As manager for a very busy DX station, I wrote a basic program back in the early 80 s that printed QSL s on fanfold card
                                            Message 22 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Sig

                                              I halfway take exception to that.  As manager for a very busy DX station, I wrote a basic program back in the early 80’s that printed QSL’s on fanfold card stock on a dot matrix printer.  Admittedly – crude, but at the time very effective.  I could set up a batch print before bed at night and I’d have around a thousand printed when I got home from work the next day.  No hand writing of the QSO info.

                                               

                                              Slow? You bet, but no writers cramps.  I later moved on to a laser jet using 3x5 cards.  A lot faster, but you had to stay close to keep feeding the printer piles of cards.

                                               

                                              Between those two printers, I think I printed in the order of 100k cards for the DX and myself.  Hand signed each as MGR.  Used a few for my DXCC, but sent them to the DX & he signed & sent them back.

                                               

                                              My first HL confirmation on 40 was a card I printed with QSO info & his call, sent to him & he signed and sent back to me.  He stated he had not replied before then because he had no cards and did not normally QSL.

                                               

                                              I’ve never had a question from the DXCC desk.

                                               

                                              I graduated and have been using an ink jet with Word merge documents.  Still hand sign each one.

                                               

                                              My latest method is to print a generic card, then print the QSO info straight out of DX4Win as if the card was a label.  Double pass, but easier than before.

                                               

                                              73,

                                              Dave

                                              N4DW

                                               

                                               

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe
                                              Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:04 PM
                                              To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                              Cc: dickflanagan
                                              Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Email'ed QSL

                                               

                                              Plus I have many cards that were made when computers were first coming out printed on Track paper and a dot matrix machine.  can't get much cruder than that!

                                              Joe WB9SBD


                                              The Original Rolling Ball Clock
                                              Idle Tyme
                                              Idle-Tyme.com
                                              http://www.idle-tyme.com


                                              On 1/30/2012 4:37 PM, dickflanagan wrote:

                                              I stand corrected, but as PC printers become capable of higher quality output, it will make detecting locally printed cards more difficult.
                                               
                                              Dick
                                               
                                              --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Earl <n5zm@...> wrote:
                                               
                                              FYI !!
                                              ------------
                                               
                                              An email from Bill Moore to DXCC Card Checkers dated April 2009..
                                               
                                              Earl N5ZM..
                                              -----------
                                               
                                              Hi All:
                                               
                                              Some of you have asked me to clarify this service and how it relates to DXCC.
                                               
                                              QSLs from Global QSL are OK for DXCC. Basically, with this service you 
                                              upload your log and pay for them to general your QSLs for you. It is not an 
                                              E-QSL service or anything like LoTW. They do all the work for you, all you 
                                              do is upload your log and pay for the service and for mailing your cards.
                                               
                                              Regards
                                               
                                              Bill Moore NC1L
                                              Awards Branch Manager
                                              -----------------------
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              On 1/30/2012 3:12 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML wrote:
                                              Kindof on the fringe of the topic of this list, but since we're here...
                                               
                                              Does this mean that GlobalQSL cards are not considered valid for DXCC ?
                                               
                                                   ~iain / N6ML
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Dick Flanagan<dick@...>  wrote:
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              As a ARRL DXCC Field Card Checker I will not accept any pre-printed QSL
                                              card that does not contain some mark by the originating station operator
                                              or his manager. That mark can be the QSO data itself, a hand-written
                                              note, the operator's or manager's initials, a distinctive rubber stamp
                                              or anything else I can discern was not created by the original card
                                              printing process.
                                               
                                              I am occasionally presented with locally printed eQSL cards. My
                                              suggestion to the applicant is that they mail the pre-printed cards to
                                              the originating station for them to sign and return. So far this has
                                              been sufficient.
                                               
                                              Dick
                                              --
                                              Dick Flanagan K7VC
                                              dick@...
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              ------------------------------------
                                               
                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              -- 
                                              In every walk with nature, one receives far more than he seeks.
                                              John Muir..
                                              ------------
                                               
                                              Earl F. Smith - N5ZM
                                               
                                              PO Box 20065
                                              White Hall, AR  71612-0065
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              ------------------------------------
                                               
                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                               
                                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARRL-LOTW/
                                               
                                              <*> Your email settings:
                                                  Individual Email | Traditional
                                               
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                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARRL-LOTW/join
                                                  (Yahoo! ID required)
                                               
                                              <*> To change settings via email:
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                                            • Henk Remijn PA5KT
                                              I just got cards from the buro. I got 84 cards of which are: 29 hand written cards 37 printed with some sign of manual addition (stamp, sign, handwritten call,
                                              Message 23 of 23 , Jan 30, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I just got cards from the buro. 
                                                I got 84 cards of which are:

                                                29 hand written cards
                                                37 printed with some sign of manual addition (stamp, sign, handwritten call, tnx/pse )
                                                18 printed without signing of which are 5 global qsl

                                                This leaves around 20% of the cards which according to the DXCC rules should be not valid for DXCC except the globalqsl ones? 
                                                I dont see the difference between a printed card and a printed card by global qsl.

                                                Conclusion, if someone wants to fake cards it can be done.
                                                I never sign the cards I sent, but all my qso's are in LotW, if the cards checkers dont trust it they can ask the submitter to sign up for LotW. (It is written on my cards that I use LotW).

                                                73 Henk PA5KT


                                                Op 31-01-2012 7:21, N4DW - Dave schreef:
                                                Sig

                                                I halfway take exception to that.  As manager for a very busy DX station, I wrote a basic program back in the early 80’s that printed QSL’s on fanfold card stock on a dot matrix printer.  Admittedly – crude, but at the time very effective.  I could set up a batch print before bed at night and I’d have around a thousand printed when I got home from work the next day.  No hand writing of the QSO info.

                                                 

                                                Slow? You bet, but no writers cramps.  I later moved on to a laser jet using 3x5 cards.  A lot faster, but you had to stay close to keep feeding the printer piles of cards.

                                                 

                                                Between those two printers, I think I printed in the order of 100k cards for the DX and myself.  Hand signed each as MGR.  Used a few for my DXCC, but sent them to the DX & he signed & sent them back.

                                                 

                                                My first HL confirmation on 40 was a card I printed with QSO info & his call, sent to him & he signed and sent back to me.  He stated he had not replied before then because he had no cards and did not normally QSL.

                                                 

                                                I’ve never had a question from the DXCC desk.

                                                 

                                                I graduated and have been using an ink jet with Word merge documents.  Still hand sign each one.

                                                 

                                                My latest method is to print a generic card, then print the QSO info straight out of DX4Win as if the card was a label.  Double pass, but easier than before.

                                                 

                                                73,

                                                Dave

                                                N4DW

                                                 

                                                 

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe
                                                Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:04 PM
                                                To: ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com
                                                Cc: dickflanagan
                                                Subject: Re: [ARRL-LOTW] Re: Email'ed QSL

                                                 

                                                Plus I have many cards that were made when computers were first coming out printed on Track paper and a dot matrix machine.  can't get much cruder than that!

                                                Joe WB9SBD


                                                The Original Rolling Ball Clock
                                                Idle Tyme
                                                Idle-Tyme.com
                                                http://www.idle-tyme.com


                                                On 1/30/2012 4:37 PM, dickflanagan wrote:

                                                I stand corrected, but as PC printers become capable of higher quality output, it will make detecting locally printed cards more difficult.
                                                 
                                                Dick
                                                 
                                                --- In ARRL-LOTW@yahoogroups.com, Earl <n5zm@...> wrote:
                                                 
                                                FYI !!
                                                ------------
                                                 
                                                An email from Bill Moore to DXCC Card Checkers dated April 2009..
                                                 
                                                Earl N5ZM..
                                                -----------
                                                 
                                                Hi All:
                                                 
                                                Some of you have asked me to clarify this service and how it relates to DXCC.
                                                 
                                                QSLs from Global QSL are OK for DXCC. Basically, with this service you 
                                                upload your log and pay for them to general your QSLs for you. It is not an 
                                                E-QSL service or anything like LoTW. They do all the work for you, all you 
                                                do is upload your log and pay for the service and for mailing your cards.
                                                 
                                                Regards
                                                 
                                                Bill Moore NC1L
                                                Awards Branch Manager
                                                -----------------------


                                                -- 
                                                Henk Remijn PA5KT
                                                email: pa5kt@...
                                                www: www.pa5kt.com
                                                House for sale: www.ruisdaelstraat.nl
                                                
                                                
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