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Re: [APBR_analysis] Re: Payton

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  • Dennis Keefe
    ... I agree that part of good defense is fitting into the team system. Bird did that quite well. He was a great team player. ... Here s where I get puzzled.
    Message 1 of 13 , May 2, 2002
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      > On Thu, 2 May 2002, HoopStudies wrote:
      >
      > [...]
      >
      > > Did he (Bird) let guys go by him?
      > Sure. But he
      > > prevented outside shots and when guys went by him,
      > they had to go at
      > > McHale and Parish.

      I agree that part of good defense is fitting into the
      team system. Bird did that quite well. He was a
      great team player.


      > > In contrast, guys like Bowen can't really help you
      > if you don't have
      > > good defensive guys around them.

      Here's where I get puzzled. How would Bird's "team
      defense" make anything better when everyone else is a
      bad defensive player?

      And while Bowen can play great individual defense, I
      have seen him play team defense too....double teaming,
      switching, etc.

      I do agree that team defense is very important (at
      least if you want to win....), but my gut feeling is
      that individual defensive awards (rather than team
      awards) belong to guys who can shut down opposing
      players. Giving individual awards to players who fit
      into a great team defense...someone should come up
      with separate awards for "individual defense" and for
      "individuals who play good team defense."


      dkeefe


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    • alleyoop2
      Thanks for all the replies on Payton everyone. I thought Eric Snow got hosed and just wanted to get a feel for others reaction. Regarding Bowen, I have to
      Message 2 of 13 , May 2, 2002
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        Thanks for all the replies on Payton everyone. I thought Eric Snow
        got hosed and just wanted to get a feel for others' reaction.

        Regarding Bowen, I have to partially disagree with what's been said
        so far. By my rankings, San Antonio was the top-ranked defensive team
        this year; one can point that they were last year too, BUT, their win-
        loss and defensive marks this season are both far better with Bowen
        in the lineup, despite the fact that the guy who replaced him
        (Charles Smith) isn't a bad defender either. Overall, the addition of
        Bowen made up for the loss of Derek Anderson and the decline by David
        Robinson (though wildly overstated by the media, IMHO his performance
        did drop this year).

        Second, saying size is of more value on defense is almost certainly
        true -- once you're in a halfcourt setting. However, transition
        defense is also important. There are any number of big men who are
        terrible at it; for example, the Sonics won't even play Vin Baker and
        Jerome James at the same time because it gives the other team an
        automatic 5-on-3 break every trip.

        Beyond Bowen, last year I had the league's No. 2 defense as Phoenix;
        this year I had the No. 2 defense as New Jersey. Neither team had an
        imposing center, but both had Jason Kidd. Overall, I don't think we
        should carry the hypothesis too far about big men's defensive value.



        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., Dennis Keefe <sonicdk2@y...> wrote:
        >
        > > On Thu, 2 May 2002, HoopStudies wrote:
        > >
        > > [...]
        > >
        > > > Did he (Bird) let guys go by him?
        > > Sure. But he
        > > > prevented outside shots and when guys went by him,
        > > they had to go at
        > > > McHale and Parish.
        >
        > I agree that part of good defense is fitting into the
        > team system. Bird did that quite well. He was a
        > great team player.
        >
        >
        > > > In contrast, guys like Bowen can't really help you
        > > if you don't have
        > > > good defensive guys around them.
        >
        > Here's where I get puzzled. How would Bird's "team
        > defense" make anything better when everyone else is a
        > bad defensive player?
        >
        > And while Bowen can play great individual defense, I
        > have seen him play team defense too....double teaming,
        > switching, etc.
        >
        > I do agree that team defense is very important (at
        > least if you want to win....), but my gut feeling is
        > that individual defensive awards (rather than team
        > awards) belong to guys who can shut down opposing
        > players. Giving individual awards to players who fit
        > into a great team defense...someone should come up
        > with separate awards for "individual defense" and for
        > "individuals who play good team defense."
        >
        >
        > dkeefe
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
        > http://health.yahoo.com
      • HoopStudies
        ... team ... win- ... of ... David ... performance ... I think this is a good partial disagreement. No doubt that Bowen does help the defense, but not as much
        Message 3 of 13 , May 2, 2002
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          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "alleyoop2" <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
          > Thanks for all the replies on Payton everyone. I thought Eric Snow
          > got hosed and just wanted to get a feel for others' reaction.
          >
          > Regarding Bowen, I have to partially disagree with what's been said
          > so far. By my rankings, San Antonio was the top-ranked defensive
          team
          > this year; one can point that they were last year too, BUT, their
          win-
          > loss and defensive marks this season are both far better with Bowen
          > in the lineup, despite the fact that the guy who replaced him
          > (Charles Smith) isn't a bad defender either. Overall, the addition
          of
          > Bowen made up for the loss of Derek Anderson and the decline by
          David
          > Robinson (though wildly overstated by the media, IMHO his
          performance
          > did drop this year).
          >

          I think this is a good partial disagreement. No doubt that Bowen
          does help the defense, but not as much as the big kahunas in the
          middle. I am definitely not saying that Bowen is a bad defender or
          even an average one. I am just pointing out that he, unlike Duncan
          Robinson Olajuwon Mutombo Shaq, cannot on his own make a good defense.

          > Beyond Bowen, last year I had the league's No. 2 defense as
          Phoenix;
          > this year I had the No. 2 defense as New Jersey. Neither team had
          an
          > imposing center, but both had Jason Kidd. Overall, I don't think we
          > should carry the hypothesis too far about big men's defensive value.
          >

          This is interestingly true. Kidd is both a good man and a good team
          defender, something that can be said of big men, too. What is
          amazing, though, is how Kidd, unlike other little guys who do both,
          has been able to carry it over to a few teams to the degree he has.
          I would expect any team with Bowen, Christie, Vranes to be better
          defensive teams. But history says otherwise. Is there a team that
          Kidd couldn't make good defensively? Yeah, probably. But I think
          there are fewer of them than for the (almost) pure man defenders.

          DeanO
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