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Re: 1st-Tier / 2nd-Tier centers

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  • mikel_ind
    Part 3: The 70s ... 1979 45.5 Kareem 40.3 Malone 39.7 Gilmore 36.8 Parish 35.9 Lanier 35.8 Adams 34.8 McAdoo 34.2 Kelley 34.1 Owens 30.8 Sikma 30.4 Thompson
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1 5:36 AM
      Part 3: The '70s

      --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "mikel_ind" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
      > Jump down the page to see the extended version continued.
      > >
      > > Here's a reverse chronology of major centers in the NBA:
      > >
      > > 2002
      > > 48.7 Shaq
      > > 33.9 Mourning
      > > 32.6 Campbell
      > >
      > > 2001
      > > 49.1 Shaq
      > > 38.6 Mourning
      > > 36.9 Robinson
      > > 34.3 Camby
      > > 32.3 Mutombo
      > >
      > > 2000
      > > 52.4 Shaq
      > > 44.3 Mourning
      > > 40.3 Robinson
      > > 34.0 Sabonis
      > > 32.8 Mutombo
      > >
      > > 1999
      > > 47.4 Shaq
      > > 42.5 Mourning
      > > 40.4 Robinson
      > > 38.0 Olajuwon
      > > 35.3 Ewing
      > > 33.8 Sabonis
      > > 32.5 Campbell
      > >
      > > 1998
      > > 48.7 Shaq
      > > 46.9 Robinson
      > > 41.9 Ewing
      > > 39.2 Mourning
      > > 37.5 Sabonis
      > > 35.1 Olajuwon
      > > 35.0 Smits
      > > 34.7 Ilgauskas
      > > 33.9 Mutombo
      > >
      > > 1997
      > > 47.2 Shaq
      > > 40.9 Olajuwon
      > > 40.7 Ewing
      > > 40.3 Mourning
      > > 36.8 Sabonis
      > > 34.1 Mutombo
      > >
      > > 1996
      > > 49.0 Robinson
      > > 46.0 Shaq
      > > 44.8 Olajuwon
      > > 41.2 Mourning
      > > 39.7 Sabonis
      > > 39.5 Ewing
      > > 35.2 Muresan
      > > 34.7 Smits
      > >
      > > 1995
      > > 48.5 Robinson
      > > 48.3 Shaq
      > > 46.3 Olajuwon
      > > 42.4 Ewing
      > > 38.0 Mourning
      > > 35.4 Divac
      > > 35.0 Smits
      > > 31.8 Mutombo
      > >
      > > 1994
      > > 51.4 Robinson
      > > 49.1 Shaq
      > > 47.2 Olajuwon
      > > 44.1 Ewing
      > > 38.6 Mourning
      > > 34.3 Smits
      > > 33.5 Mutombo
      > > 33.1 Daugherty
      > > 32.7 Divac
      > >
      > > 1993
      > > 48.6 Olajuwon
      > > 42.7 Robinson
      > > 42.6 Shaq
      > > 41.4 Ewing
      > > 39.1 Daugherty
      > > 37.1 Mourning
      > > 32.5 Ellison
      > > 32.3 Seikaly
      > > 31.8 Mutombo
      > > 31.6 Parish
      > >
      > > 1992
      > > 47.2 Robinson
      > > 42.2 Ewing
      > > 42.0 Olajuwon
      > > 40.2 Daugherty
      > > 36.5 Ellison
      > >
      > > 1991
      > > 48.4 Robinson
      > > 43.8 Ewing
      > > 42.9 Olajuwon
      > > 36.4 Daugherty
      > > 34.3 Parish
      > >
      > > 1990
      > > 46.1 Ewing
      > > 46.1 Robinson
      > > 45.0 Olajuwon
      > > 33.4 Parish
      > > 32.5 Malone
      >
      > 1989
      > 44.0 Olajuwon
      > 39.2 Ewing
      > 37.2 Parish
      > 34.9 Malone
      > 34.1 Daugherty
      > 31.4 Benjamin
      > 30.8 Gminski
      > 30.7 Laimbeer
      >
      > 1988
      > 40.5 Olajuwon
      > 38.8 Ewing
      > 34.8 Malone
      > 32.9 Tarpley
      > 31.6 Daugherty
      > 31.3 Sikma
      >
      > 1987
      > 42.3 Olajuwon
      > 38.2 Malone
      > 34.0 Ewing
      > 32.0 Kareem
      > 31.4 Carroll
      >
      > 1986
      > 40.7 Olajuwon
      > 38.4 Kareem
      > 35.7 Ruland
      > 35.3 Malone
      > 33.0 Herb Williams
      > 33.0 Parish
      > 32.8 Ewing
      > 32.7 Sikma
      > 32.3 Sampson
      > 31.4 Laimbeer
      >
      > 1985
      > 39.8 Kareem
      > 38.9 Malone
      > 37.2 Olajuwon
      > 37.1 Sikma
      > 36.9 Gilmore
      > 33.9 Sampson
      > 33.1 Ruland
      > 33.0 Adams
      > 31.7 Laimbeer
      > 31.6 Parish
      >
      > 1984
      > 38.1 Moses
      > 37.6 Ruland
      > 36.6 Sampson
      > 36.5 Kareem
      > 35.8 Sikma
      > 34.4 Parish
      > 33.9 Cartwright
      > 32.7 Laimbeer
      > 32.5 Dawkins
      > 32.4 Issel
      > 32.0 Gilmore
      > 31.7 Thompson
      >
      > 1983
      > 42.0 Malone
      > 39.2 Kareem
      > 38.4 Parish
      > 37.3 Gilmore
      > 36.2 Ruland
      > 34.4 Sikma
      > 34.0 Cartwright
      > 33.7 Carroll
      > 33.2 Issel
      > 33.1 Walton
      >
      > 1982
      > 44.1 Malone
      > 40.5 Kareem
      > 39.5 Parish
      > 39.1 Gilmore
      > 37.3 Sikma
      > 34.7 Issel
      > 34.5 Thompson
      > 33.5 Ruland
      > 33.2 Adams
      >
      > 1981
      > 44.4 Kareem
      > 42.6 Parish
      > 42.4 Malone
      > 38.2 Gilmore
      > 35.2 Adams
      > 33.3 Nater
      > 32.5 Sikma
      > 32.4 Lanier
      > 32.3 Issel
      > 31.7 Cartwright
      > 31.3 Edwards
      > 31.2 Dawkins
      >
      > 1980
      > 44.8 Kareem
      > 39.5 Malone
      > 34.8 Gilmore
      > 34.8 Issel
      > 34.7 Parish
      > 33.9 Lanier
      > 33.8 Adams
      > 31.8 Rollins
      > 31.5 Cartwright
      > 30.8 Nater

      1979
      45.5 Kareem
      40.3 Malone
      39.7 Gilmore
      36.8 Parish
      35.9 Lanier
      35.8 Adams
      34.8 McAdoo
      34.2 Kelley
      34.1 Owens
      30.8 Sikma
      30.4 Thompson

      1978
      47.5 Kareem
      43.3 Walton
      41.0 Gilmore
      39.7 Lanier
      38.2 McAdoo
      35.1 Issel
      34.0 Malone
      33.1 Cowens
      32.8 Paultz
      31.4 Adams
      31.0 Elmore Smith
      30.5 Nater
      30.2 Webster

      1977
      48.5 Kareem
      41.4 Walton
      39.7 Lanier
      39.4 McAdoo
      38.6 Gilmore
      36.5 Issel
      36.1 Adams
      33.8 Malone
      32.2 Nater
      32.2 Cowens

      1976
      48.3 Kareem
      42.4 McAdoo
      38.3 Gilmore
      37.6 Lanier
      37.5 Adams
      36.0 Walton
      35.0 Cowens
      34.4 Issel
      31.9 E Smith
      31.3 Paultz
      30.4 Burleson

      1975
      46.6 Kareem
      45.4 McAdoo
      42.3 Lanier
      38.7 Gilmore
      36.3 Walton
      36.2 Cowens
      32.0 Malone
      32.0 Caldwell Jones

      1974
      45.2 Kareem
      44.0 McAdoo
      43.1 Lanier
      35.3 Gilmore
      34.7 Hayes
      32.7 Cowens
      32.2 Walk
      32.1 Nater

      1973
      47.3 Kareem
      36.5 Lanier
      34.2 Gilmore
      32.3 Wilt
      32.2 Cowens

      1972
      50.1 Kareem
      36.5 Lanier
      35.1 Gilmore
      32.8 Beaty
      32.2 Jim McDaniels
      31.4 Wilt
      31.1 Bellamy
      30.8 Thurmond
      30.4 Mel Daniels

      1971
      48.0 Alcindor
      33.6 Wilt
      33.0 Hayes
      32.3 Boerwinkle
      32.1 Kauffman
      32.1 Beaty
      31.3 Reed
      31.2 Issel
      30.7 Daniels

      1970
      37.4 Alcindor
      34.5 Reed
      31.4 Hayes
      30.1 Thurmond
      29.9 Rule

      Before 1974, blocked shots (and steals) were not counted; therefore,
      the ratings from this era do not include these categories.

      Also, some guys are going from center to forward some. Hayes and
      Issel, notably. I left Sampson at center, because he was one.
    • mikel_ind
      part 4: 60s, 50s ... therefore, ... 1969 34.9 Wilt 34.8 Reed 31.5 Hayes 30.6 Beaty 30.0 Rule 30.0 Thurmond 28.6 Bellamy 28.5 Unseld 1968 39.9 Wilt 31.7 Reed
      Message 2 of 8 , May 1 5:51 AM
        part 4: '60s, '50s

        > > Jump down the page to see the extended version continued.
        > > >
        > > > Here's a reverse chronology of major centers in the NBA:
        > > >
        > > > 2002
        > > > 48.7 Shaq
        > > > 33.9 Mourning
        > > > 32.6 Campbell
        > > >
        > > > 2001
        > > > 49.1 Shaq
        > > > 38.6 Mourning
        > > > 36.9 Robinson
        > > > 34.3 Camby
        > > > 32.3 Mutombo
        > > >
        > > > 2000
        > > > 52.4 Shaq
        > > > 44.3 Mourning
        > > > 40.3 Robinson
        > > > 34.0 Sabonis
        > > > 32.8 Mutombo
        > > >
        > > > 1999
        > > > 47.4 Shaq
        > > > 42.5 Mourning
        > > > 40.4 Robinson
        > > > 38.0 Olajuwon
        > > > 35.3 Ewing
        > > > 33.8 Sabonis
        > > > 32.5 Campbell
        > > >
        > > > 1998
        > > > 48.7 Shaq
        > > > 46.9 Robinson
        > > > 41.9 Ewing
        > > > 39.2 Mourning
        > > > 37.5 Sabonis
        > > > 35.1 Olajuwon
        > > > 35.0 Smits
        > > > 34.7 Ilgauskas
        > > > 33.9 Mutombo
        > > >
        > > > 1997
        > > > 47.2 Shaq
        > > > 40.9 Olajuwon
        > > > 40.7 Ewing
        > > > 40.3 Mourning
        > > > 36.8 Sabonis
        > > > 34.1 Mutombo
        > > >
        > > > 1996
        > > > 49.0 Robinson
        > > > 46.0 Shaq
        > > > 44.8 Olajuwon
        > > > 41.2 Mourning
        > > > 39.7 Sabonis
        > > > 39.5 Ewing
        > > > 35.2 Muresan
        > > > 34.7 Smits
        > > >
        > > > 1995
        > > > 48.5 Robinson
        > > > 48.3 Shaq
        > > > 46.3 Olajuwon
        > > > 42.4 Ewing
        > > > 38.0 Mourning
        > > > 35.4 Divac
        > > > 35.0 Smits
        > > > 31.8 Mutombo
        > > >
        > > > 1994
        > > > 51.4 Robinson
        > > > 49.1 Shaq
        > > > 47.2 Olajuwon
        > > > 44.1 Ewing
        > > > 38.6 Mourning
        > > > 34.3 Smits
        > > > 33.5 Mutombo
        > > > 33.1 Daugherty
        > > > 32.7 Divac
        > > >
        > > > 1993
        > > > 48.6 Olajuwon
        > > > 42.7 Robinson
        > > > 42.6 Shaq
        > > > 41.4 Ewing
        > > > 39.1 Daugherty
        > > > 37.1 Mourning
        > > > 32.5 Ellison
        > > > 32.3 Seikaly
        > > > 31.8 Mutombo
        > > > 31.6 Parish
        > > >
        > > > 1992
        > > > 47.2 Robinson
        > > > 42.2 Ewing
        > > > 42.0 Olajuwon
        > > > 40.2 Daugherty
        > > > 36.5 Ellison
        > > >
        > > > 1991
        > > > 48.4 Robinson
        > > > 43.8 Ewing
        > > > 42.9 Olajuwon
        > > > 36.4 Daugherty
        > > > 34.3 Parish
        > > >
        > > > 1990
        > > > 46.1 Ewing
        > > > 46.1 Robinson
        > > > 45.0 Olajuwon
        > > > 33.4 Parish
        > > > 32.5 Malone
        > >
        > > 1989
        > > 44.0 Olajuwon
        > > 39.2 Ewing
        > > 37.2 Parish
        > > 34.9 Malone
        > > 34.1 Daugherty
        > > 31.4 Benjamin
        > > 30.8 Gminski
        > > 30.7 Laimbeer
        > >
        > > 1988
        > > 40.5 Olajuwon
        > > 38.8 Ewing
        > > 34.8 Malone
        > > 32.9 Tarpley
        > > 31.6 Daugherty
        > > 31.3 Sikma
        > >
        > > 1987
        > > 42.3 Olajuwon
        > > 38.2 Malone
        > > 34.0 Ewing
        > > 32.0 Kareem
        > > 31.4 Carroll
        > >
        > > 1986
        > > 40.7 Olajuwon
        > > 38.4 Kareem
        > > 35.7 Ruland
        > > 35.3 Malone
        > > 33.0 Herb Williams
        > > 33.0 Parish
        > > 32.8 Ewing
        > > 32.7 Sikma
        > > 32.3 Sampson
        > > 31.4 Laimbeer
        > >
        > > 1985
        > > 39.8 Kareem
        > > 38.9 Malone
        > > 37.2 Olajuwon
        > > 37.1 Sikma
        > > 36.9 Gilmore
        > > 33.9 Sampson
        > > 33.1 Ruland
        > > 33.0 Adams
        > > 31.7 Laimbeer
        > > 31.6 Parish
        > >
        > > 1984
        > > 38.1 Moses
        > > 37.6 Ruland
        > > 36.6 Sampson
        > > 36.5 Kareem
        > > 35.8 Sikma
        > > 34.4 Parish
        > > 33.9 Cartwright
        > > 32.7 Laimbeer
        > > 32.5 Dawkins
        > > 32.4 Issel
        > > 32.0 Gilmore
        > > 31.7 Thompson
        > >
        > > 1983
        > > 42.0 Malone
        > > 39.2 Kareem
        > > 38.4 Parish
        > > 37.3 Gilmore
        > > 36.2 Ruland
        > > 34.4 Sikma
        > > 34.0 Cartwright
        > > 33.7 Carroll
        > > 33.2 Issel
        > > 33.1 Walton
        > >
        > > 1982
        > > 44.1 Malone
        > > 40.5 Kareem
        > > 39.5 Parish
        > > 39.1 Gilmore
        > > 37.3 Sikma
        > > 34.7 Issel
        > > 34.5 Thompson
        > > 33.5 Ruland
        > > 33.2 Adams
        > >
        > > 1981
        > > 44.4 Kareem
        > > 42.6 Parish
        > > 42.4 Malone
        > > 38.2 Gilmore
        > > 35.2 Adams
        > > 33.3 Nater
        > > 32.5 Sikma
        > > 32.4 Lanier
        > > 32.3 Issel
        > > 31.7 Cartwright
        > > 31.3 Edwards
        > > 31.2 Dawkins
        > >
        > > 1980
        > > 44.8 Kareem
        > > 39.5 Malone
        > > 34.8 Gilmore
        > > 34.8 Issel
        > > 34.7 Parish
        > > 33.9 Lanier
        > > 33.8 Adams
        > > 31.8 Rollins
        > > 31.5 Cartwright
        > > 30.8 Nater
        >
        > 1979
        > 45.5 Kareem
        > 40.3 Malone
        > 39.7 Gilmore
        > 36.8 Parish
        > 35.9 Lanier
        > 35.8 Adams
        > 34.8 McAdoo
        > 34.2 Kelley
        > 34.1 Owens
        > 30.8 Sikma
        > 30.4 Thompson
        >
        > 1978
        > 47.5 Kareem
        > 43.3 Walton
        > 41.0 Gilmore
        > 39.7 Lanier
        > 38.2 McAdoo
        > 35.1 Issel
        > 34.0 Malone
        > 33.1 Cowens
        > 32.8 Paultz
        > 31.4 Adams
        > 31.0 Elmore Smith
        > 30.5 Nater
        > 30.2 Webster
        >
        > 1977
        > 48.5 Kareem
        > 41.4 Walton
        > 39.7 Lanier
        > 39.4 McAdoo
        > 38.6 Gilmore
        > 36.5 Issel
        > 36.1 Adams
        > 33.8 Malone
        > 32.2 Nater
        > 32.2 Cowens
        >
        > 1976
        > 48.3 Kareem
        > 42.4 McAdoo
        > 38.3 Gilmore
        > 37.6 Lanier
        > 37.5 Adams
        > 36.0 Walton
        > 35.0 Cowens
        > 34.4 Issel
        > 31.9 E Smith
        > 31.3 Paultz
        > 30.4 Burleson
        >
        > 1975
        > 46.6 Kareem
        > 45.4 McAdoo
        > 42.3 Lanier
        > 38.7 Gilmore
        > 36.3 Walton
        > 36.2 Cowens
        > 32.0 Malone
        > 32.0 Caldwell Jones
        >
        > 1974
        > 45.2 Kareem
        > 44.0 McAdoo
        > 43.1 Lanier
        > 35.3 Gilmore
        > 34.7 Hayes
        > 32.7 Cowens
        > 32.2 Walk
        > 32.1 Nater
        >
        > 1973
        > 47.3 Kareem
        > 36.5 Lanier
        > 34.2 Gilmore
        > 32.3 Wilt
        > 32.2 Cowens
        >
        > 1972
        > 50.1 Kareem
        > 36.5 Lanier
        > 35.1 Gilmore
        > 32.8 Beaty
        > 32.2 Jim McDaniels
        > 31.4 Wilt
        > 31.1 Bellamy
        > 30.8 Thurmond
        > 30.4 Mel Daniels
        >
        > 1971
        > 48.0 Alcindor
        > 33.6 Wilt
        > 33.0 Hayes
        > 32.3 Boerwinkle
        > 32.1 Kauffman
        > 32.1 Beaty
        > 31.3 Reed
        > 31.2 Issel
        > 30.7 Daniels
        >
        > 1970
        > 37.4 Alcindor
        > 34.5 Reed
        > 31.4 Hayes
        > 30.1 Thurmond
        > 29.9 Rule
        >
        > Before 1974, blocked shots (and steals) were not counted;
        therefore,
        > the ratings from this era do not include these categories.
        >
        > Also, some guys are going from center to forward some. Hayes and
        > Issel, notably. I left Sampson at center, because he was one.

        1969
        34.9 Wilt
        34.8 Reed
        31.5 Hayes
        30.6 Beaty
        30.0 Rule
        30.0 Thurmond
        28.6 Bellamy
        28.5 Unseld

        1968
        39.9 Wilt
        31.7 Reed
        30.8 Beaty
        30.4 Thurmond
        29.7 Bellamy

        1967
        42.3 Wilt
        30.8 Reed
        29.5 Russell
        28.6 Bellamy
        28.2 Thurmond

        1966
        44.3 Wilt
        31.3 Bellamy
        29.6 Beaty
        27.8 Russell

        1965
        43.2 Wilt
        32.9 Bellamy
        30.3 Russell

        1964
        49.3 Wilt
        35.1 Bellamy
        30.5 Russell

        1963
        49.5 Wilt
        38.9 Bellamy
        30.0 Russell

        1962
        50.2 Wilt
        40.0 Bellamy
        31.0 Russell

        1961
        42.3 Wilt
        30.8 Lovellette

        1960
        42.1 Wilt
        33.5 Lovellette
        30.5 Russell

        1959
        29.5 Russell
        29.5 Lovellette

        1958
        31.8 Lovellette
        31.6 Russell
        31.2 Stokes
        30.8 Johnston
        28.1 Foust

        1957
        36.7 Johnston
        31.1 Lovellette
        30.7 Stokes
        30.0 Russell

        1956
        36.3 Johnston
        34.4 Lovellette
        33.9 Foust
        32.9 Stokes
        29.4 Share

        1955
        36.8 Johnston
        33.5 Foust
        30.8 Lovellette
        30.7 Share
        30.3 Felix

        1954
        39.7 Mikan
        37.4 Johnston
        33.1 Felix
        33.1 Macauley
        32.6 Foust
        28.2 Risen

        1953
        39.7 Mikan
        36.0 Johnston
        33.3 Macauley
        29.7 Foust
        27.2 Risen

        1952
        38.8 Mikan
        31.2 Macauley
        30.9 Foust
        30.7 Risen


        That's as far as I go
      • Michael K. Tamada
        On Wed, 1 May 2002, mikel_ind wrote: [...] ... The 14.8 point difference between the #1 center and the #2 center is the largest of all the years you show.
        Message 3 of 8 , May 2 2:17 AM
          On Wed, 1 May 2002, mikel_ind wrote:

          [...]

          > > > 2002
          > > > 48.7 Shaq
          > > > 33.9 Mourning

          The 14.8 point difference between the #1 center and the #2 center is the
          largest of all the years you show. Although, interestingly, there were
          two other years that came very close ...

          > > 1988
          > > 31.3 Sikma

          > > 1985
          > > 37.1 Sikma
          > > 31.6 Parish

          > > 1984
          > > 35.8 Sikma
          > > 34.4 Parish

          I *knew* there were some years that Sikma was better than the
          more-heralded Robert Parish! ;)

          > 1972
          > 50.1 Kareem
          > 36.5 Lanier
          > 35.1 Gilmore
          > 32.8 Beaty
          > 32.2 Jim McDaniels
          > 31.4 Wilt

          A 13.6 point difference between #1 and #2. Kareem was at his MVP level
          height, but Wilt's Lakers were dominant that year. Interesting that Jim
          McDaniels rates so high; the Sonics owner Sam Schulman, having hit the
          jackpot by grabbing Spencer Haywood from the ABA, tried to make lightning
          strike twice by grabbing McDaniels after the 1972 season. Total bust in
          the NBA, never did anything for the Sonics or anybody else.

          > 1971
          > 48.0 Alcindor
          > 33.6 Wilt
          > 33.0 Hayes
          > 32.3 Boerwinkle
          > 32.1 Kauffman

          At 14.4, this differential is almost as big as Shaq's in 2002. Wilt was
          in his late career, so not piling up the big stats. Hayes was piling up
          the stats, but his game was very much more limited and narrow than
          Kareem's (or Wilt's).

          Boerwinkle was underrated, but jeez, #4 among all centers? Like the
          Admiral of 2002, Boerwinkle played less than 30 minutes a game, but was
          extremely productive in those minutes. Not in terms of shooting
          efficiency or scoring, but massively so in rebounds and especially
          assists. He may have been the best passing center in history, not
          counting Wilt when he decided to embark on a jihad to grab the assist
          title.

          And Kauffman's even more jarring to see at #5. He did score a lot, but
          for a very bad expansion Buffalo team that had nobody else on it (except
          for Don May, who also scored a bundle). Similar to the role that Bob Rule
          played with the expansion Sonics, they had nobody else so Rule would score
          20-24 points per game.

          Even though Cowens hadn't fully hit his stride yet, I would've expected to
          see him outrank Boerwinkle and Kauffman. Certainly in the long run he
          turned out to be the better player; in 1971 he had to defer to the
          at-his-peak John Havlicek on offense.


          --MKT
        • mikel_ind
          ... I $knew$ there was a Sikma fan hiding out there somewhere. ... level ... that Jim ... anybody else. In the ABA with the Carolina Cougars, rookie McDaniels
          Message 4 of 8 , May 2 3:27 AM
            --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
            > ...
            > > > 1985
            > > > 37.1 Sikma
            > > > 31.6 Parish
            >
            > > > 1984
            > > > 35.8 Sikma
            > > > 34.4 Parish
            >
            > I *knew* there were some years that Sikma was better than the
            > more-heralded Robert Parish! ;)

            I $knew$ there was a Sikma fan hiding out there somewhere.

            ...
            > > 1972
            > > 50.1 Kareem
            > > 36.5 Lanier
            > > 35.1 Gilmore
            > > 32.8 Beaty
            > > 32.2 Jim McDaniels
            > > 31.4 Wilt
            >
            > A 13.6 point difference between #1 and #2. Kareem was at his MVP
            level
            > height, but Wilt's Lakers were dominant that year. Interesting
            that Jim
            > McDaniels rates so high; .... never did anything for the Sonics or
            anybody else.

            In the ABA with the Carolina Cougars, rookie McDaniels averaged 27
            pts and 14 reb, on .590 overall shooting. Then, 58 games into the
            season he jumped to the Sonics, and it's as you say from there.

            Something to do with being 6'11" and 225? Not sure why that's OK in
            the ABA and not in the NBA. Perhaps he got no respect in his new
            digs, turned to drugs.....

            > > 1971
            > > 48.0 Alcindor
            > > 33.6 Wilt
            > > 33.0 Hayes
            > > 32.3 Boerwinkle
            > > 32.1 Kauffman
            >
            > At 14.4, this differential is almost as big as Shaq's in 2002.
            Wilt was
            > in his late career, so not piling up the big stats. Hayes was
            piling up
            > the stats, but his game was very much more limited and narrow than
            > Kareem's (or Wilt's).

            Big E averaged 29 pts and 17 boards for the SD Rockets.


            > Boerwinkle was underrated, but jeez, #4 among all centers? Like the
            > Admiral of 2002, Boerwinkle played less than 30 minutes a game, but
            was
            > extremely productive in those minutes. Not in terms of shooting
            > efficiency or scoring, but massively so in rebounds and especially
            > assists. He may have been the best passing center in history, not
            > counting Wilt when he decided to embark on a jihad to grab the
            assist
            > title.

            Well, somebody has to be #4. Lanier was a rookie (getting 15 and
            8). Gilmore hadn't arrived yet.

            Heck, I left out Zelmo Beaty, with the Utah Stars. He should be just
            behind Kauffman at 32.1

            This was Boerwinkle's monster year. In 29 minutes, he averaged 14
            rebounds and 5 assists, and managed 11 points too. Between him and
            backup Jim Fox, the Bulls got 21.5 pts, 21.1 reb, 7.2 ast from their
            center position.

            DeanO mentioned that unknown turnovers could be a huge factor. For
            some of these guys, the unknown blocks could be more huge.

            > And Kauffman's even more jarring to see at #5. He did score a lot,
            but
            > for a very bad expansion Buffalo team that had nobody else on it
            (except
            > for Don May, who also scored a bundle).

            Kauffman's monster season (before McAdoo arrived) was 20.4 pts, 10.7
            reb, 4.5 ast. It seems all centers were expected to be passers, for
            a few years in the early '70s.

            Kauffman and (as you say) Don May both scored 20 this year, and they
            also had easily the best shooting pcts on the team. I wonder if they
            shouldn't receive at least their flash-in-the-pan credit for making a
            team respectable?


            > Similar to the role that Bob Rule
            > played with the expansion Sonics, they had nobody else so Rule
            would score
            > 20-24 points per game.

            Rule was already washed up by this time (bad back?), after 3 good
            years.

            I think the comment "..they had nobody else so Rule would score
            20..." is suspect. Granted, he wouldn't get 20 on the Lakers. But
            why Rule and not Meschery? Lenny Wilkens got 9 assists a game. Why
            did he keep getting the ball to Bob Rule?

            Because he could score.

            Teams don't just automatically receive 117 points, and decide who
            gets credit for them. They still have to get shots, and make them.


            > Even though Cowens hadn't fully hit his stride yet, I would've
            expected to
            > see him outrank Boerwinkle and Kauffman. Certainly in the long run
            he
            > turned out to be the better player; in 1971 he had to defer to the
            > at-his-peak John Havlicek on offense.

            The rookie Cowens averaged 17 and 15, and was just what the doctor
            ordered for the Celtics. However, he shot only 42% from the field.

            His .461 overall shooting pct compares to .513 for Kauffman, .518 for
            Boerwinkle, .460 for Hayes!
          • Michael K. Tamada
            On Thu, 2 May 2002, mikel_ind wrote: [...] ... [...] ... I haven t heard rumors of drugs, I think he was just too thin and weak to succeed in the NBA. I
            Message 5 of 8 , May 2 1:27 PM
              On Thu, 2 May 2002, mikel_ind wrote:

              [...]

              > that Jim
              > > McDaniels rates so high; .... never did anything for the Sonics or
              > anybody else.

              [...]

              > Something to do with being 6'11" and 225? Not sure why that's OK in
              > the ABA and not in the NBA. Perhaps he got no respect in his new
              > digs, turned to drugs.....

              I haven't heard rumors of drugs, I think he was just too thin and weak to
              succeed in the NBA. I conjecture that it might be similar to certain
              college players who score 30 per game or get 12 rebounds per game in
              college, but have no ability to succeed at the pro level. He might've
              been good enough for the ABA but not for the NBA.

              Except of course that most of the ABA superstars were equally supreme
              when they went to the NBA: Haywood, Moses, Erving, McGinnis (although his
              few best years were already behind him), Gervin, Thompson, Gilmore, even
              Bobby Jones. But some didn't pan out: McDaniels, and another
              ABA-to-Sonics failure, John Brisker. However, Brisker had serious
              personality issues to explain his failure; he makes Isaiah Rider look
              like a choir boy.

              > > in his late career, so not piling up the big stats. Hayes was
              > piling up
              > > the stats, but his game was very much more limited and narrow than
              > > Kareem's (or Wilt's).
              >
              > Big E averaged 29 pts and 17 boards for the SD Rockets.

              Yeah, but when I say he had a limited and narrow game, that's pretty much
              all he could do. Granted, scoring and rebounding are about the most
              important things one would want a power forward/center to do (and Hayes as
              far as I could tell was decent at defense too, 1-on-1 anyway), so if one
              is going to have a narrow set of skills, those are the ones to have.

              But he didn't bring anything else to the table: passing, ability to
              contribute in anything except a half-court post-up offense (no triangle
              offense for him -- see what happened between him and Tex Winter in
              Houston), team attitude in general (the Rockets traded him away for Jack
              Marin for a reason).

              Haywood was somewhat similar, he didn't have the longevity of Hayes but
              initially he didn't disrupt teams as much (though he eventually became
              dissatisfied and jumped from Seattle, to his regret, much like Shawn Kemp
              many years later). Haywood also could contribute more to fast break
              opportunities than Hayes.

              Moses Malone was another guy whose skills were limited to scoring and
              rebounding, but he was a greater player than Hayes because (1) he was
              incredibly good (or perhaps unstoppable is a better word, because his FG%
              was mediocre) at those tasks, especially rebounding, (2) he didn't
              disrupt team chemistry the way Hayes did, and (3) he was almost certainly
              a better defensive player, partly because he was big enough to play a true
              center whereas Hayes was mainly a power forward.

              All of them are examples of players with narrow skill sets; Shaq is like a
              multi-talented Oscar or Magic compared to these guys. In particular,
              Shaq can and is willing to pass to ball. Such players can still be Hall
              of Famers, but even Malone is not up there with the Big 3 among all-time
              centers, and I think I'd put Olajuwon and Shaq and possibly Robinson above
              Malone. And Hayes farther down the list (actually I'd put him in with the
              power forwards because he played PF more than C, with Unseld around).

              [...]

              > Kauffman and (as you say) Don May both scored 20 this year, and they
              > also had easily the best shooting pcts on the team. I wonder if they
              > shouldn't receive at least their flash-in-the-pan credit for making a
              > team respectable?

              They weren't bad players, but it's Tony Campbell with the T-Wolves all
              over again. If they truly did make the team respectable, then I'd give
              them more credit, but it wasn't them who made the Braves respectable, the
              Braves were horrendous in those early years. But you can see the
              progression from 1971: add Elmore Smith. Add Bob McAdoo. Add Ernie
              DiGregorio and Garfield Heard. Trade Smith for Jim McMillan. Watch the
              victory totals rise and the Braves make the playoffs. And while all this
              was happening, watch Kaufmann's minutes and contributions diminish
              (although aging or injuries were probably a factor too).

              >
              > > Similar to the role that Bob Rule
              > > played with the expansion Sonics, they had nobody else so Rule
              > would score
              > > 20-24 points per game.
              >
              > Rule was already washed up by this time (bad back?), after 3 good
              > years.

              Correct, I was comparing the 1971 Kaufmann to the Bob Rule of earlier
              years. I think it was Rule's knee that went out.

              > I think the comment "..they had nobody else so Rule would score
              > 20..." is suspect. Granted, he wouldn't get 20 on the Lakers. But
              > why Rule and not Meschery? Lenny Wilkens got 9 assists a game. Why
              > did he keep getting the ball to Bob Rule?
              >
              > Because he could score.
              >
              > Teams don't just automatically receive 117 points, and decide who
              > gets credit for them. They still have to get shots, and make them.

              True, but that is the point about why these 20 or 25 point per game
              players are suspect. As with Tony Campbell, all it means is that they are
              the best or perhaps only scorer (on a bad team). That doesn't mean they
              have all-star scoring capabilities, it only means that they're above
              average. So their stats can be misleading.

              [...]

              > The rookie Cowens averaged 17 and 15, and was just what the doctor
              > ordered for the Celtics. However, he shot only 42% from the field.
              >
              > His .461 overall shooting pct compares to .513 for Kauffman, .518 for
              > Boerwinkle, .460 for Hayes!

              Yeah, that's one of my knocks against Hayes, his low FG%. Cowens was
              probably even worse most years, but: Cowens was shooting many of his
              shots from outside, which does not totally excuse a low shooting percent
              but mitigates it. More importantly, Cowens was in many ways the
              anti-Hayes: many of his contributions were non-statistical, and didn't
              show up in the scoring and rebounding stats (though Cowens was also a good
              scorer and excellent rebounder): fabulous team defense (Cowens' D, like
              Sikma's, doesn't show up in blocked shots but they were outstanding at
              helping out their teammates on defense), hustle, moving the ball and
              moving without the ball, and as with Bill Russell a burning desire to will
              the team to victory, instead of griping about teammates and coaches and
              insisting that the offense funnel through him.

              Interestingly, in his best years Cowens is statistically right up there
              with Hayes; when the non-statistical contributions are taken into account,
              Cowens was well above Hayes. It's no accident that he won an MVP award
              and Hayes never did. On the other hand, Cowens' period of peak
              performance was relatively brief, whereas Hayes was one of the most
              durable and enduring players ever.


              --MKT
            • Dennis Keefe
              ... McDaniels) was just ... Jim McDaniels suffered from a plethora of minor injuries in Seattle, and apparently that was one reason he didn t excell in the
              Message 6 of 8 , May 3 11:57 AM
                --- "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > I haven't heard rumors of drugs, I think he (Jim
                McDaniels) was just
                > too thin and weak to
                > succeed in the NBA.

                Jim McDaniels suffered from a plethora of minor
                injuries in Seattle, and apparently that was one
                reason he didn't excell in the NBA. I suspect he just
                didn't have the motivation to play hard or play with
                pain--and scouts complained about his lackadaisacal
                (sp) rebounding and failure to add muscle.

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