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Re: 1st-Tier / 2nd-Tier centers

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  • mikel_ind
    Jump down the page to see the extended version continued. ... 1989 44.0 Olajuwon 39.2 Ewing 37.2 Parish 34.9 Malone 34.1 Daugherty 31.4 Benjamin 30.8 Gminski
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1 5:15 AM
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      Jump down the page to see the extended version continued.

      --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "mikel_ind" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
      > There really does seem to be no one after Shaq, these days. And I
      > don't see anyone on the horizon, either.
      >
      > Here's a reverse chronology of major centers in the NBA:
      >
      > 2002
      > 48.7 Shaq
      > 33.9 Mourning
      > 32.6 Campbell
      >
      > 2001
      > 49.1 Shaq
      > 38.6 Mourning
      > 36.9 Robinson
      > 34.3 Camby
      > 32.3 Mutombo
      >
      > 2000
      > 52.4 Shaq
      > 44.3 Mourning
      > 40.3 Robinson
      > 34.0 Sabonis
      > 32.8 Mutombo
      >
      > 1999
      > 47.4 Shaq
      > 42.5 Mourning
      > 40.4 Robinson
      > 38.0 Olajuwon
      > 35.3 Ewing
      > 33.8 Sabonis
      > 32.5 Campbell
      >
      > 1998
      > 48.7 Shaq
      > 46.9 Robinson
      > 41.9 Ewing
      > 39.2 Mourning
      > 37.5 Sabonis
      > 35.1 Olajuwon
      > 35.0 Smits
      > 34.7 Ilgauskas
      > 33.9 Mutombo
      >
      > 1997
      > 47.2 Shaq
      > 40.9 Olajuwon
      > 40.7 Ewing
      > 40.3 Mourning
      > 36.8 Sabonis
      > 34.1 Mutombo
      >
      > 1996
      > 49.0 Robinson
      > 46.0 Shaq
      > 44.8 Olajuwon
      > 41.2 Mourning
      > 39.7 Sabonis
      > 39.5 Ewing
      > 35.2 Muresan
      > 34.7 Smits
      >
      > 1995
      > 48.5 Robinson
      > 48.3 Shaq
      > 46.3 Olajuwon
      > 42.4 Ewing
      > 38.0 Mourning
      > 35.4 Divac
      > 35.0 Smits
      > 31.8 Mutombo
      >
      > 1994
      > 51.4 Robinson
      > 49.1 Shaq
      > 47.2 Olajuwon
      > 44.1 Ewing
      > 38.6 Mourning
      > 34.3 Smits
      > 33.5 Mutombo
      > 33.1 Daugherty
      > 32.7 Divac
      >
      > 1993
      > 48.6 Olajuwon
      > 42.7 Robinson
      > 42.6 Shaq
      > 41.4 Ewing
      > 39.1 Daugherty
      > 37.1 Mourning
      > 32.5 Ellison
      > 32.3 Seikaly
      > 31.8 Mutombo
      > 31.6 Parish
      >
      > 1992
      > 47.2 Robinson
      > 42.2 Ewing
      > 42.0 Olajuwon
      > 40.2 Daugherty
      > 36.5 Ellison
      >
      > 1991
      > 48.4 Robinson
      > 43.8 Ewing
      > 42.9 Olajuwon
      > 36.4 Daugherty
      > 34.3 Parish
      >
      > 1990
      > 46.1 Ewing
      > 46.1 Robinson
      > 45.0 Olajuwon
      > 33.4 Parish
      > 32.5 Malone

      1989
      44.0 Olajuwon
      39.2 Ewing
      37.2 Parish
      34.9 Malone
      34.1 Daugherty
      31.4 Benjamin
      30.8 Gminski
      30.7 Laimbeer

      1988
      40.5 Olajuwon
      38.8 Ewing
      34.8 Malone
      32.9 Tarpley
      31.6 Daugherty
      31.3 Sikma

      1987
      42.3 Olajuwon
      38.2 Malone
      34.0 Ewing
      32.0 Kareem
      31.4 Carroll

      1986
      40.7 Olajuwon
      38.4 Kareem
      35.7 Ruland
      35.3 Malone
      33.0 Herb Williams
      33.0 Parish
      32.8 Ewing
      32.7 Sikma
      32.3 Sampson
      31.4 Laimbeer

      1985
      39.8 Kareem
      38.9 Malone
      37.2 Olajuwon
      37.1 Sikma
      36.9 Gilmore
      33.9 Sampson
      33.1 Ruland
      33.0 Adams
      31.7 Laimbeer
      31.6 Parish

      1984
      38.1 Moses
      37.6 Ruland
      36.6 Sampson
      36.5 Kareem
      35.8 Sikma
      34.4 Parish
      33.9 Cartwright
      32.7 Laimbeer
      32.5 Dawkins
      32.4 Issel
      32.0 Gilmore
      31.7 Thompson

      1983
      42.0 Malone
      39.2 Kareem
      38.4 Parish
      37.3 Gilmore
      36.2 Ruland
      34.4 Sikma
      34.0 Cartwright
      33.7 Carroll
      33.2 Issel
      33.1 Walton

      1982
      44.1 Malone
      40.5 Kareem
      39.5 Parish
      39.1 Gilmore
      37.3 Sikma
      34.7 Issel
      34.5 Thompson
      33.5 Ruland
      33.2 Adams

      1981
      44.4 Kareem
      42.6 Parish
      42.4 Malone
      38.2 Gilmore
      35.2 Adams
      33.3 Nater
      32.5 Sikma
      32.4 Lanier
      32.3 Issel
      31.7 Cartwright
      31.3 Edwards
      31.2 Dawkins

      1980
      44.8 Kareem
      39.5 Malone
      34.8 Gilmore
      34.8 Issel
      34.7 Parish
      33.9 Lanier
      33.8 Adams
      31.8 Rollins
      31.5 Cartwright
      30.8 Nater
    • mikel_ind
      Part 3: The 70s ... 1979 45.5 Kareem 40.3 Malone 39.7 Gilmore 36.8 Parish 35.9 Lanier 35.8 Adams 34.8 McAdoo 34.2 Kelley 34.1 Owens 30.8 Sikma 30.4 Thompson
      Message 2 of 8 , May 1 5:36 AM
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        Part 3: The '70s

        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "mikel_ind" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
        > Jump down the page to see the extended version continued.
        > >
        > > Here's a reverse chronology of major centers in the NBA:
        > >
        > > 2002
        > > 48.7 Shaq
        > > 33.9 Mourning
        > > 32.6 Campbell
        > >
        > > 2001
        > > 49.1 Shaq
        > > 38.6 Mourning
        > > 36.9 Robinson
        > > 34.3 Camby
        > > 32.3 Mutombo
        > >
        > > 2000
        > > 52.4 Shaq
        > > 44.3 Mourning
        > > 40.3 Robinson
        > > 34.0 Sabonis
        > > 32.8 Mutombo
        > >
        > > 1999
        > > 47.4 Shaq
        > > 42.5 Mourning
        > > 40.4 Robinson
        > > 38.0 Olajuwon
        > > 35.3 Ewing
        > > 33.8 Sabonis
        > > 32.5 Campbell
        > >
        > > 1998
        > > 48.7 Shaq
        > > 46.9 Robinson
        > > 41.9 Ewing
        > > 39.2 Mourning
        > > 37.5 Sabonis
        > > 35.1 Olajuwon
        > > 35.0 Smits
        > > 34.7 Ilgauskas
        > > 33.9 Mutombo
        > >
        > > 1997
        > > 47.2 Shaq
        > > 40.9 Olajuwon
        > > 40.7 Ewing
        > > 40.3 Mourning
        > > 36.8 Sabonis
        > > 34.1 Mutombo
        > >
        > > 1996
        > > 49.0 Robinson
        > > 46.0 Shaq
        > > 44.8 Olajuwon
        > > 41.2 Mourning
        > > 39.7 Sabonis
        > > 39.5 Ewing
        > > 35.2 Muresan
        > > 34.7 Smits
        > >
        > > 1995
        > > 48.5 Robinson
        > > 48.3 Shaq
        > > 46.3 Olajuwon
        > > 42.4 Ewing
        > > 38.0 Mourning
        > > 35.4 Divac
        > > 35.0 Smits
        > > 31.8 Mutombo
        > >
        > > 1994
        > > 51.4 Robinson
        > > 49.1 Shaq
        > > 47.2 Olajuwon
        > > 44.1 Ewing
        > > 38.6 Mourning
        > > 34.3 Smits
        > > 33.5 Mutombo
        > > 33.1 Daugherty
        > > 32.7 Divac
        > >
        > > 1993
        > > 48.6 Olajuwon
        > > 42.7 Robinson
        > > 42.6 Shaq
        > > 41.4 Ewing
        > > 39.1 Daugherty
        > > 37.1 Mourning
        > > 32.5 Ellison
        > > 32.3 Seikaly
        > > 31.8 Mutombo
        > > 31.6 Parish
        > >
        > > 1992
        > > 47.2 Robinson
        > > 42.2 Ewing
        > > 42.0 Olajuwon
        > > 40.2 Daugherty
        > > 36.5 Ellison
        > >
        > > 1991
        > > 48.4 Robinson
        > > 43.8 Ewing
        > > 42.9 Olajuwon
        > > 36.4 Daugherty
        > > 34.3 Parish
        > >
        > > 1990
        > > 46.1 Ewing
        > > 46.1 Robinson
        > > 45.0 Olajuwon
        > > 33.4 Parish
        > > 32.5 Malone
        >
        > 1989
        > 44.0 Olajuwon
        > 39.2 Ewing
        > 37.2 Parish
        > 34.9 Malone
        > 34.1 Daugherty
        > 31.4 Benjamin
        > 30.8 Gminski
        > 30.7 Laimbeer
        >
        > 1988
        > 40.5 Olajuwon
        > 38.8 Ewing
        > 34.8 Malone
        > 32.9 Tarpley
        > 31.6 Daugherty
        > 31.3 Sikma
        >
        > 1987
        > 42.3 Olajuwon
        > 38.2 Malone
        > 34.0 Ewing
        > 32.0 Kareem
        > 31.4 Carroll
        >
        > 1986
        > 40.7 Olajuwon
        > 38.4 Kareem
        > 35.7 Ruland
        > 35.3 Malone
        > 33.0 Herb Williams
        > 33.0 Parish
        > 32.8 Ewing
        > 32.7 Sikma
        > 32.3 Sampson
        > 31.4 Laimbeer
        >
        > 1985
        > 39.8 Kareem
        > 38.9 Malone
        > 37.2 Olajuwon
        > 37.1 Sikma
        > 36.9 Gilmore
        > 33.9 Sampson
        > 33.1 Ruland
        > 33.0 Adams
        > 31.7 Laimbeer
        > 31.6 Parish
        >
        > 1984
        > 38.1 Moses
        > 37.6 Ruland
        > 36.6 Sampson
        > 36.5 Kareem
        > 35.8 Sikma
        > 34.4 Parish
        > 33.9 Cartwright
        > 32.7 Laimbeer
        > 32.5 Dawkins
        > 32.4 Issel
        > 32.0 Gilmore
        > 31.7 Thompson
        >
        > 1983
        > 42.0 Malone
        > 39.2 Kareem
        > 38.4 Parish
        > 37.3 Gilmore
        > 36.2 Ruland
        > 34.4 Sikma
        > 34.0 Cartwright
        > 33.7 Carroll
        > 33.2 Issel
        > 33.1 Walton
        >
        > 1982
        > 44.1 Malone
        > 40.5 Kareem
        > 39.5 Parish
        > 39.1 Gilmore
        > 37.3 Sikma
        > 34.7 Issel
        > 34.5 Thompson
        > 33.5 Ruland
        > 33.2 Adams
        >
        > 1981
        > 44.4 Kareem
        > 42.6 Parish
        > 42.4 Malone
        > 38.2 Gilmore
        > 35.2 Adams
        > 33.3 Nater
        > 32.5 Sikma
        > 32.4 Lanier
        > 32.3 Issel
        > 31.7 Cartwright
        > 31.3 Edwards
        > 31.2 Dawkins
        >
        > 1980
        > 44.8 Kareem
        > 39.5 Malone
        > 34.8 Gilmore
        > 34.8 Issel
        > 34.7 Parish
        > 33.9 Lanier
        > 33.8 Adams
        > 31.8 Rollins
        > 31.5 Cartwright
        > 30.8 Nater

        1979
        45.5 Kareem
        40.3 Malone
        39.7 Gilmore
        36.8 Parish
        35.9 Lanier
        35.8 Adams
        34.8 McAdoo
        34.2 Kelley
        34.1 Owens
        30.8 Sikma
        30.4 Thompson

        1978
        47.5 Kareem
        43.3 Walton
        41.0 Gilmore
        39.7 Lanier
        38.2 McAdoo
        35.1 Issel
        34.0 Malone
        33.1 Cowens
        32.8 Paultz
        31.4 Adams
        31.0 Elmore Smith
        30.5 Nater
        30.2 Webster

        1977
        48.5 Kareem
        41.4 Walton
        39.7 Lanier
        39.4 McAdoo
        38.6 Gilmore
        36.5 Issel
        36.1 Adams
        33.8 Malone
        32.2 Nater
        32.2 Cowens

        1976
        48.3 Kareem
        42.4 McAdoo
        38.3 Gilmore
        37.6 Lanier
        37.5 Adams
        36.0 Walton
        35.0 Cowens
        34.4 Issel
        31.9 E Smith
        31.3 Paultz
        30.4 Burleson

        1975
        46.6 Kareem
        45.4 McAdoo
        42.3 Lanier
        38.7 Gilmore
        36.3 Walton
        36.2 Cowens
        32.0 Malone
        32.0 Caldwell Jones

        1974
        45.2 Kareem
        44.0 McAdoo
        43.1 Lanier
        35.3 Gilmore
        34.7 Hayes
        32.7 Cowens
        32.2 Walk
        32.1 Nater

        1973
        47.3 Kareem
        36.5 Lanier
        34.2 Gilmore
        32.3 Wilt
        32.2 Cowens

        1972
        50.1 Kareem
        36.5 Lanier
        35.1 Gilmore
        32.8 Beaty
        32.2 Jim McDaniels
        31.4 Wilt
        31.1 Bellamy
        30.8 Thurmond
        30.4 Mel Daniels

        1971
        48.0 Alcindor
        33.6 Wilt
        33.0 Hayes
        32.3 Boerwinkle
        32.1 Kauffman
        32.1 Beaty
        31.3 Reed
        31.2 Issel
        30.7 Daniels

        1970
        37.4 Alcindor
        34.5 Reed
        31.4 Hayes
        30.1 Thurmond
        29.9 Rule

        Before 1974, blocked shots (and steals) were not counted; therefore,
        the ratings from this era do not include these categories.

        Also, some guys are going from center to forward some. Hayes and
        Issel, notably. I left Sampson at center, because he was one.
      • mikel_ind
        part 4: 60s, 50s ... therefore, ... 1969 34.9 Wilt 34.8 Reed 31.5 Hayes 30.6 Beaty 30.0 Rule 30.0 Thurmond 28.6 Bellamy 28.5 Unseld 1968 39.9 Wilt 31.7 Reed
        Message 3 of 8 , May 1 5:51 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          part 4: '60s, '50s

          > > Jump down the page to see the extended version continued.
          > > >
          > > > Here's a reverse chronology of major centers in the NBA:
          > > >
          > > > 2002
          > > > 48.7 Shaq
          > > > 33.9 Mourning
          > > > 32.6 Campbell
          > > >
          > > > 2001
          > > > 49.1 Shaq
          > > > 38.6 Mourning
          > > > 36.9 Robinson
          > > > 34.3 Camby
          > > > 32.3 Mutombo
          > > >
          > > > 2000
          > > > 52.4 Shaq
          > > > 44.3 Mourning
          > > > 40.3 Robinson
          > > > 34.0 Sabonis
          > > > 32.8 Mutombo
          > > >
          > > > 1999
          > > > 47.4 Shaq
          > > > 42.5 Mourning
          > > > 40.4 Robinson
          > > > 38.0 Olajuwon
          > > > 35.3 Ewing
          > > > 33.8 Sabonis
          > > > 32.5 Campbell
          > > >
          > > > 1998
          > > > 48.7 Shaq
          > > > 46.9 Robinson
          > > > 41.9 Ewing
          > > > 39.2 Mourning
          > > > 37.5 Sabonis
          > > > 35.1 Olajuwon
          > > > 35.0 Smits
          > > > 34.7 Ilgauskas
          > > > 33.9 Mutombo
          > > >
          > > > 1997
          > > > 47.2 Shaq
          > > > 40.9 Olajuwon
          > > > 40.7 Ewing
          > > > 40.3 Mourning
          > > > 36.8 Sabonis
          > > > 34.1 Mutombo
          > > >
          > > > 1996
          > > > 49.0 Robinson
          > > > 46.0 Shaq
          > > > 44.8 Olajuwon
          > > > 41.2 Mourning
          > > > 39.7 Sabonis
          > > > 39.5 Ewing
          > > > 35.2 Muresan
          > > > 34.7 Smits
          > > >
          > > > 1995
          > > > 48.5 Robinson
          > > > 48.3 Shaq
          > > > 46.3 Olajuwon
          > > > 42.4 Ewing
          > > > 38.0 Mourning
          > > > 35.4 Divac
          > > > 35.0 Smits
          > > > 31.8 Mutombo
          > > >
          > > > 1994
          > > > 51.4 Robinson
          > > > 49.1 Shaq
          > > > 47.2 Olajuwon
          > > > 44.1 Ewing
          > > > 38.6 Mourning
          > > > 34.3 Smits
          > > > 33.5 Mutombo
          > > > 33.1 Daugherty
          > > > 32.7 Divac
          > > >
          > > > 1993
          > > > 48.6 Olajuwon
          > > > 42.7 Robinson
          > > > 42.6 Shaq
          > > > 41.4 Ewing
          > > > 39.1 Daugherty
          > > > 37.1 Mourning
          > > > 32.5 Ellison
          > > > 32.3 Seikaly
          > > > 31.8 Mutombo
          > > > 31.6 Parish
          > > >
          > > > 1992
          > > > 47.2 Robinson
          > > > 42.2 Ewing
          > > > 42.0 Olajuwon
          > > > 40.2 Daugherty
          > > > 36.5 Ellison
          > > >
          > > > 1991
          > > > 48.4 Robinson
          > > > 43.8 Ewing
          > > > 42.9 Olajuwon
          > > > 36.4 Daugherty
          > > > 34.3 Parish
          > > >
          > > > 1990
          > > > 46.1 Ewing
          > > > 46.1 Robinson
          > > > 45.0 Olajuwon
          > > > 33.4 Parish
          > > > 32.5 Malone
          > >
          > > 1989
          > > 44.0 Olajuwon
          > > 39.2 Ewing
          > > 37.2 Parish
          > > 34.9 Malone
          > > 34.1 Daugherty
          > > 31.4 Benjamin
          > > 30.8 Gminski
          > > 30.7 Laimbeer
          > >
          > > 1988
          > > 40.5 Olajuwon
          > > 38.8 Ewing
          > > 34.8 Malone
          > > 32.9 Tarpley
          > > 31.6 Daugherty
          > > 31.3 Sikma
          > >
          > > 1987
          > > 42.3 Olajuwon
          > > 38.2 Malone
          > > 34.0 Ewing
          > > 32.0 Kareem
          > > 31.4 Carroll
          > >
          > > 1986
          > > 40.7 Olajuwon
          > > 38.4 Kareem
          > > 35.7 Ruland
          > > 35.3 Malone
          > > 33.0 Herb Williams
          > > 33.0 Parish
          > > 32.8 Ewing
          > > 32.7 Sikma
          > > 32.3 Sampson
          > > 31.4 Laimbeer
          > >
          > > 1985
          > > 39.8 Kareem
          > > 38.9 Malone
          > > 37.2 Olajuwon
          > > 37.1 Sikma
          > > 36.9 Gilmore
          > > 33.9 Sampson
          > > 33.1 Ruland
          > > 33.0 Adams
          > > 31.7 Laimbeer
          > > 31.6 Parish
          > >
          > > 1984
          > > 38.1 Moses
          > > 37.6 Ruland
          > > 36.6 Sampson
          > > 36.5 Kareem
          > > 35.8 Sikma
          > > 34.4 Parish
          > > 33.9 Cartwright
          > > 32.7 Laimbeer
          > > 32.5 Dawkins
          > > 32.4 Issel
          > > 32.0 Gilmore
          > > 31.7 Thompson
          > >
          > > 1983
          > > 42.0 Malone
          > > 39.2 Kareem
          > > 38.4 Parish
          > > 37.3 Gilmore
          > > 36.2 Ruland
          > > 34.4 Sikma
          > > 34.0 Cartwright
          > > 33.7 Carroll
          > > 33.2 Issel
          > > 33.1 Walton
          > >
          > > 1982
          > > 44.1 Malone
          > > 40.5 Kareem
          > > 39.5 Parish
          > > 39.1 Gilmore
          > > 37.3 Sikma
          > > 34.7 Issel
          > > 34.5 Thompson
          > > 33.5 Ruland
          > > 33.2 Adams
          > >
          > > 1981
          > > 44.4 Kareem
          > > 42.6 Parish
          > > 42.4 Malone
          > > 38.2 Gilmore
          > > 35.2 Adams
          > > 33.3 Nater
          > > 32.5 Sikma
          > > 32.4 Lanier
          > > 32.3 Issel
          > > 31.7 Cartwright
          > > 31.3 Edwards
          > > 31.2 Dawkins
          > >
          > > 1980
          > > 44.8 Kareem
          > > 39.5 Malone
          > > 34.8 Gilmore
          > > 34.8 Issel
          > > 34.7 Parish
          > > 33.9 Lanier
          > > 33.8 Adams
          > > 31.8 Rollins
          > > 31.5 Cartwright
          > > 30.8 Nater
          >
          > 1979
          > 45.5 Kareem
          > 40.3 Malone
          > 39.7 Gilmore
          > 36.8 Parish
          > 35.9 Lanier
          > 35.8 Adams
          > 34.8 McAdoo
          > 34.2 Kelley
          > 34.1 Owens
          > 30.8 Sikma
          > 30.4 Thompson
          >
          > 1978
          > 47.5 Kareem
          > 43.3 Walton
          > 41.0 Gilmore
          > 39.7 Lanier
          > 38.2 McAdoo
          > 35.1 Issel
          > 34.0 Malone
          > 33.1 Cowens
          > 32.8 Paultz
          > 31.4 Adams
          > 31.0 Elmore Smith
          > 30.5 Nater
          > 30.2 Webster
          >
          > 1977
          > 48.5 Kareem
          > 41.4 Walton
          > 39.7 Lanier
          > 39.4 McAdoo
          > 38.6 Gilmore
          > 36.5 Issel
          > 36.1 Adams
          > 33.8 Malone
          > 32.2 Nater
          > 32.2 Cowens
          >
          > 1976
          > 48.3 Kareem
          > 42.4 McAdoo
          > 38.3 Gilmore
          > 37.6 Lanier
          > 37.5 Adams
          > 36.0 Walton
          > 35.0 Cowens
          > 34.4 Issel
          > 31.9 E Smith
          > 31.3 Paultz
          > 30.4 Burleson
          >
          > 1975
          > 46.6 Kareem
          > 45.4 McAdoo
          > 42.3 Lanier
          > 38.7 Gilmore
          > 36.3 Walton
          > 36.2 Cowens
          > 32.0 Malone
          > 32.0 Caldwell Jones
          >
          > 1974
          > 45.2 Kareem
          > 44.0 McAdoo
          > 43.1 Lanier
          > 35.3 Gilmore
          > 34.7 Hayes
          > 32.7 Cowens
          > 32.2 Walk
          > 32.1 Nater
          >
          > 1973
          > 47.3 Kareem
          > 36.5 Lanier
          > 34.2 Gilmore
          > 32.3 Wilt
          > 32.2 Cowens
          >
          > 1972
          > 50.1 Kareem
          > 36.5 Lanier
          > 35.1 Gilmore
          > 32.8 Beaty
          > 32.2 Jim McDaniels
          > 31.4 Wilt
          > 31.1 Bellamy
          > 30.8 Thurmond
          > 30.4 Mel Daniels
          >
          > 1971
          > 48.0 Alcindor
          > 33.6 Wilt
          > 33.0 Hayes
          > 32.3 Boerwinkle
          > 32.1 Kauffman
          > 32.1 Beaty
          > 31.3 Reed
          > 31.2 Issel
          > 30.7 Daniels
          >
          > 1970
          > 37.4 Alcindor
          > 34.5 Reed
          > 31.4 Hayes
          > 30.1 Thurmond
          > 29.9 Rule
          >
          > Before 1974, blocked shots (and steals) were not counted;
          therefore,
          > the ratings from this era do not include these categories.
          >
          > Also, some guys are going from center to forward some. Hayes and
          > Issel, notably. I left Sampson at center, because he was one.

          1969
          34.9 Wilt
          34.8 Reed
          31.5 Hayes
          30.6 Beaty
          30.0 Rule
          30.0 Thurmond
          28.6 Bellamy
          28.5 Unseld

          1968
          39.9 Wilt
          31.7 Reed
          30.8 Beaty
          30.4 Thurmond
          29.7 Bellamy

          1967
          42.3 Wilt
          30.8 Reed
          29.5 Russell
          28.6 Bellamy
          28.2 Thurmond

          1966
          44.3 Wilt
          31.3 Bellamy
          29.6 Beaty
          27.8 Russell

          1965
          43.2 Wilt
          32.9 Bellamy
          30.3 Russell

          1964
          49.3 Wilt
          35.1 Bellamy
          30.5 Russell

          1963
          49.5 Wilt
          38.9 Bellamy
          30.0 Russell

          1962
          50.2 Wilt
          40.0 Bellamy
          31.0 Russell

          1961
          42.3 Wilt
          30.8 Lovellette

          1960
          42.1 Wilt
          33.5 Lovellette
          30.5 Russell

          1959
          29.5 Russell
          29.5 Lovellette

          1958
          31.8 Lovellette
          31.6 Russell
          31.2 Stokes
          30.8 Johnston
          28.1 Foust

          1957
          36.7 Johnston
          31.1 Lovellette
          30.7 Stokes
          30.0 Russell

          1956
          36.3 Johnston
          34.4 Lovellette
          33.9 Foust
          32.9 Stokes
          29.4 Share

          1955
          36.8 Johnston
          33.5 Foust
          30.8 Lovellette
          30.7 Share
          30.3 Felix

          1954
          39.7 Mikan
          37.4 Johnston
          33.1 Felix
          33.1 Macauley
          32.6 Foust
          28.2 Risen

          1953
          39.7 Mikan
          36.0 Johnston
          33.3 Macauley
          29.7 Foust
          27.2 Risen

          1952
          38.8 Mikan
          31.2 Macauley
          30.9 Foust
          30.7 Risen


          That's as far as I go
        • Michael K. Tamada
          On Wed, 1 May 2002, mikel_ind wrote: [...] ... The 14.8 point difference between the #1 center and the #2 center is the largest of all the years you show.
          Message 4 of 8 , May 2 2:17 AM
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            On Wed, 1 May 2002, mikel_ind wrote:

            [...]

            > > > 2002
            > > > 48.7 Shaq
            > > > 33.9 Mourning

            The 14.8 point difference between the #1 center and the #2 center is the
            largest of all the years you show. Although, interestingly, there were
            two other years that came very close ...

            > > 1988
            > > 31.3 Sikma

            > > 1985
            > > 37.1 Sikma
            > > 31.6 Parish

            > > 1984
            > > 35.8 Sikma
            > > 34.4 Parish

            I *knew* there were some years that Sikma was better than the
            more-heralded Robert Parish! ;)

            > 1972
            > 50.1 Kareem
            > 36.5 Lanier
            > 35.1 Gilmore
            > 32.8 Beaty
            > 32.2 Jim McDaniels
            > 31.4 Wilt

            A 13.6 point difference between #1 and #2. Kareem was at his MVP level
            height, but Wilt's Lakers were dominant that year. Interesting that Jim
            McDaniels rates so high; the Sonics owner Sam Schulman, having hit the
            jackpot by grabbing Spencer Haywood from the ABA, tried to make lightning
            strike twice by grabbing McDaniels after the 1972 season. Total bust in
            the NBA, never did anything for the Sonics or anybody else.

            > 1971
            > 48.0 Alcindor
            > 33.6 Wilt
            > 33.0 Hayes
            > 32.3 Boerwinkle
            > 32.1 Kauffman

            At 14.4, this differential is almost as big as Shaq's in 2002. Wilt was
            in his late career, so not piling up the big stats. Hayes was piling up
            the stats, but his game was very much more limited and narrow than
            Kareem's (or Wilt's).

            Boerwinkle was underrated, but jeez, #4 among all centers? Like the
            Admiral of 2002, Boerwinkle played less than 30 minutes a game, but was
            extremely productive in those minutes. Not in terms of shooting
            efficiency or scoring, but massively so in rebounds and especially
            assists. He may have been the best passing center in history, not
            counting Wilt when he decided to embark on a jihad to grab the assist
            title.

            And Kauffman's even more jarring to see at #5. He did score a lot, but
            for a very bad expansion Buffalo team that had nobody else on it (except
            for Don May, who also scored a bundle). Similar to the role that Bob Rule
            played with the expansion Sonics, they had nobody else so Rule would score
            20-24 points per game.

            Even though Cowens hadn't fully hit his stride yet, I would've expected to
            see him outrank Boerwinkle and Kauffman. Certainly in the long run he
            turned out to be the better player; in 1971 he had to defer to the
            at-his-peak John Havlicek on offense.


            --MKT
          • mikel_ind
            ... I $knew$ there was a Sikma fan hiding out there somewhere. ... level ... that Jim ... anybody else. In the ABA with the Carolina Cougars, rookie McDaniels
            Message 5 of 8 , May 2 3:27 AM
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              --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
              > ...
              > > > 1985
              > > > 37.1 Sikma
              > > > 31.6 Parish
              >
              > > > 1984
              > > > 35.8 Sikma
              > > > 34.4 Parish
              >
              > I *knew* there were some years that Sikma was better than the
              > more-heralded Robert Parish! ;)

              I $knew$ there was a Sikma fan hiding out there somewhere.

              ...
              > > 1972
              > > 50.1 Kareem
              > > 36.5 Lanier
              > > 35.1 Gilmore
              > > 32.8 Beaty
              > > 32.2 Jim McDaniels
              > > 31.4 Wilt
              >
              > A 13.6 point difference between #1 and #2. Kareem was at his MVP
              level
              > height, but Wilt's Lakers were dominant that year. Interesting
              that Jim
              > McDaniels rates so high; .... never did anything for the Sonics or
              anybody else.

              In the ABA with the Carolina Cougars, rookie McDaniels averaged 27
              pts and 14 reb, on .590 overall shooting. Then, 58 games into the
              season he jumped to the Sonics, and it's as you say from there.

              Something to do with being 6'11" and 225? Not sure why that's OK in
              the ABA and not in the NBA. Perhaps he got no respect in his new
              digs, turned to drugs.....

              > > 1971
              > > 48.0 Alcindor
              > > 33.6 Wilt
              > > 33.0 Hayes
              > > 32.3 Boerwinkle
              > > 32.1 Kauffman
              >
              > At 14.4, this differential is almost as big as Shaq's in 2002.
              Wilt was
              > in his late career, so not piling up the big stats. Hayes was
              piling up
              > the stats, but his game was very much more limited and narrow than
              > Kareem's (or Wilt's).

              Big E averaged 29 pts and 17 boards for the SD Rockets.


              > Boerwinkle was underrated, but jeez, #4 among all centers? Like the
              > Admiral of 2002, Boerwinkle played less than 30 minutes a game, but
              was
              > extremely productive in those minutes. Not in terms of shooting
              > efficiency or scoring, but massively so in rebounds and especially
              > assists. He may have been the best passing center in history, not
              > counting Wilt when he decided to embark on a jihad to grab the
              assist
              > title.

              Well, somebody has to be #4. Lanier was a rookie (getting 15 and
              8). Gilmore hadn't arrived yet.

              Heck, I left out Zelmo Beaty, with the Utah Stars. He should be just
              behind Kauffman at 32.1

              This was Boerwinkle's monster year. In 29 minutes, he averaged 14
              rebounds and 5 assists, and managed 11 points too. Between him and
              backup Jim Fox, the Bulls got 21.5 pts, 21.1 reb, 7.2 ast from their
              center position.

              DeanO mentioned that unknown turnovers could be a huge factor. For
              some of these guys, the unknown blocks could be more huge.

              > And Kauffman's even more jarring to see at #5. He did score a lot,
              but
              > for a very bad expansion Buffalo team that had nobody else on it
              (except
              > for Don May, who also scored a bundle).

              Kauffman's monster season (before McAdoo arrived) was 20.4 pts, 10.7
              reb, 4.5 ast. It seems all centers were expected to be passers, for
              a few years in the early '70s.

              Kauffman and (as you say) Don May both scored 20 this year, and they
              also had easily the best shooting pcts on the team. I wonder if they
              shouldn't receive at least their flash-in-the-pan credit for making a
              team respectable?


              > Similar to the role that Bob Rule
              > played with the expansion Sonics, they had nobody else so Rule
              would score
              > 20-24 points per game.

              Rule was already washed up by this time (bad back?), after 3 good
              years.

              I think the comment "..they had nobody else so Rule would score
              20..." is suspect. Granted, he wouldn't get 20 on the Lakers. But
              why Rule and not Meschery? Lenny Wilkens got 9 assists a game. Why
              did he keep getting the ball to Bob Rule?

              Because he could score.

              Teams don't just automatically receive 117 points, and decide who
              gets credit for them. They still have to get shots, and make them.


              > Even though Cowens hadn't fully hit his stride yet, I would've
              expected to
              > see him outrank Boerwinkle and Kauffman. Certainly in the long run
              he
              > turned out to be the better player; in 1971 he had to defer to the
              > at-his-peak John Havlicek on offense.

              The rookie Cowens averaged 17 and 15, and was just what the doctor
              ordered for the Celtics. However, he shot only 42% from the field.

              His .461 overall shooting pct compares to .513 for Kauffman, .518 for
              Boerwinkle, .460 for Hayes!
            • Michael K. Tamada
              On Thu, 2 May 2002, mikel_ind wrote: [...] ... [...] ... I haven t heard rumors of drugs, I think he was just too thin and weak to succeed in the NBA. I
              Message 6 of 8 , May 2 1:27 PM
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                On Thu, 2 May 2002, mikel_ind wrote:

                [...]

                > that Jim
                > > McDaniels rates so high; .... never did anything for the Sonics or
                > anybody else.

                [...]

                > Something to do with being 6'11" and 225? Not sure why that's OK in
                > the ABA and not in the NBA. Perhaps he got no respect in his new
                > digs, turned to drugs.....

                I haven't heard rumors of drugs, I think he was just too thin and weak to
                succeed in the NBA. I conjecture that it might be similar to certain
                college players who score 30 per game or get 12 rebounds per game in
                college, but have no ability to succeed at the pro level. He might've
                been good enough for the ABA but not for the NBA.

                Except of course that most of the ABA superstars were equally supreme
                when they went to the NBA: Haywood, Moses, Erving, McGinnis (although his
                few best years were already behind him), Gervin, Thompson, Gilmore, even
                Bobby Jones. But some didn't pan out: McDaniels, and another
                ABA-to-Sonics failure, John Brisker. However, Brisker had serious
                personality issues to explain his failure; he makes Isaiah Rider look
                like a choir boy.

                > > in his late career, so not piling up the big stats. Hayes was
                > piling up
                > > the stats, but his game was very much more limited and narrow than
                > > Kareem's (or Wilt's).
                >
                > Big E averaged 29 pts and 17 boards for the SD Rockets.

                Yeah, but when I say he had a limited and narrow game, that's pretty much
                all he could do. Granted, scoring and rebounding are about the most
                important things one would want a power forward/center to do (and Hayes as
                far as I could tell was decent at defense too, 1-on-1 anyway), so if one
                is going to have a narrow set of skills, those are the ones to have.

                But he didn't bring anything else to the table: passing, ability to
                contribute in anything except a half-court post-up offense (no triangle
                offense for him -- see what happened between him and Tex Winter in
                Houston), team attitude in general (the Rockets traded him away for Jack
                Marin for a reason).

                Haywood was somewhat similar, he didn't have the longevity of Hayes but
                initially he didn't disrupt teams as much (though he eventually became
                dissatisfied and jumped from Seattle, to his regret, much like Shawn Kemp
                many years later). Haywood also could contribute more to fast break
                opportunities than Hayes.

                Moses Malone was another guy whose skills were limited to scoring and
                rebounding, but he was a greater player than Hayes because (1) he was
                incredibly good (or perhaps unstoppable is a better word, because his FG%
                was mediocre) at those tasks, especially rebounding, (2) he didn't
                disrupt team chemistry the way Hayes did, and (3) he was almost certainly
                a better defensive player, partly because he was big enough to play a true
                center whereas Hayes was mainly a power forward.

                All of them are examples of players with narrow skill sets; Shaq is like a
                multi-talented Oscar or Magic compared to these guys. In particular,
                Shaq can and is willing to pass to ball. Such players can still be Hall
                of Famers, but even Malone is not up there with the Big 3 among all-time
                centers, and I think I'd put Olajuwon and Shaq and possibly Robinson above
                Malone. And Hayes farther down the list (actually I'd put him in with the
                power forwards because he played PF more than C, with Unseld around).

                [...]

                > Kauffman and (as you say) Don May both scored 20 this year, and they
                > also had easily the best shooting pcts on the team. I wonder if they
                > shouldn't receive at least their flash-in-the-pan credit for making a
                > team respectable?

                They weren't bad players, but it's Tony Campbell with the T-Wolves all
                over again. If they truly did make the team respectable, then I'd give
                them more credit, but it wasn't them who made the Braves respectable, the
                Braves were horrendous in those early years. But you can see the
                progression from 1971: add Elmore Smith. Add Bob McAdoo. Add Ernie
                DiGregorio and Garfield Heard. Trade Smith for Jim McMillan. Watch the
                victory totals rise and the Braves make the playoffs. And while all this
                was happening, watch Kaufmann's minutes and contributions diminish
                (although aging or injuries were probably a factor too).

                >
                > > Similar to the role that Bob Rule
                > > played with the expansion Sonics, they had nobody else so Rule
                > would score
                > > 20-24 points per game.
                >
                > Rule was already washed up by this time (bad back?), after 3 good
                > years.

                Correct, I was comparing the 1971 Kaufmann to the Bob Rule of earlier
                years. I think it was Rule's knee that went out.

                > I think the comment "..they had nobody else so Rule would score
                > 20..." is suspect. Granted, he wouldn't get 20 on the Lakers. But
                > why Rule and not Meschery? Lenny Wilkens got 9 assists a game. Why
                > did he keep getting the ball to Bob Rule?
                >
                > Because he could score.
                >
                > Teams don't just automatically receive 117 points, and decide who
                > gets credit for them. They still have to get shots, and make them.

                True, but that is the point about why these 20 or 25 point per game
                players are suspect. As with Tony Campbell, all it means is that they are
                the best or perhaps only scorer (on a bad team). That doesn't mean they
                have all-star scoring capabilities, it only means that they're above
                average. So their stats can be misleading.

                [...]

                > The rookie Cowens averaged 17 and 15, and was just what the doctor
                > ordered for the Celtics. However, he shot only 42% from the field.
                >
                > His .461 overall shooting pct compares to .513 for Kauffman, .518 for
                > Boerwinkle, .460 for Hayes!

                Yeah, that's one of my knocks against Hayes, his low FG%. Cowens was
                probably even worse most years, but: Cowens was shooting many of his
                shots from outside, which does not totally excuse a low shooting percent
                but mitigates it. More importantly, Cowens was in many ways the
                anti-Hayes: many of his contributions were non-statistical, and didn't
                show up in the scoring and rebounding stats (though Cowens was also a good
                scorer and excellent rebounder): fabulous team defense (Cowens' D, like
                Sikma's, doesn't show up in blocked shots but they were outstanding at
                helping out their teammates on defense), hustle, moving the ball and
                moving without the ball, and as with Bill Russell a burning desire to will
                the team to victory, instead of griping about teammates and coaches and
                insisting that the offense funnel through him.

                Interestingly, in his best years Cowens is statistically right up there
                with Hayes; when the non-statistical contributions are taken into account,
                Cowens was well above Hayes. It's no accident that he won an MVP award
                and Hayes never did. On the other hand, Cowens' period of peak
                performance was relatively brief, whereas Hayes was one of the most
                durable and enduring players ever.


                --MKT
              • Dennis Keefe
                ... McDaniels) was just ... Jim McDaniels suffered from a plethora of minor injuries in Seattle, and apparently that was one reason he didn t excell in the
                Message 7 of 8 , May 3 11:57 AM
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                  --- "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I haven't heard rumors of drugs, I think he (Jim
                  McDaniels) was just
                  > too thin and weak to
                  > succeed in the NBA.

                  Jim McDaniels suffered from a plethora of minor
                  injuries in Seattle, and apparently that was one
                  reason he didn't excell in the NBA. I suspect he just
                  didn't have the motivation to play hard or play with
                  pain--and scouts complained about his lackadaisacal
                  (sp) rebounding and failure to add muscle.

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