Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Adrian Dantley study

Expand Messages
  • Dean Oliver
    Since everyone is interested in whether Dantley really has the quals for the HOF, I d like to look into it a bit more. I am not going to have time in the next
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 29, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Since everyone is interested in whether Dantley really has the quals for
      the HOF, I'd like to look into it a bit more. I am not going to have time
      in the next week or so to do what I want to do with Adrian Dantley --
      which is understand how his presence influenced the teams he was on. This
      is basic -- what were his teams' records before and after his arrival.
      Did they get better offensively/defensively? Did he make bad teams good,
      but not good teams great?

      Since I don't have the time (traveling), I'm hoping someone can put this
      together.

      Dean Oliver
      Journal of Basketball Studies
      www.tsoft.com/~deano/index.html
    • Ed Weiland
      ... Here s some stuff I dug up. I din t format anything, so I hope it all is at least semi-comprehensible. Buffalo: Records Before Dantley ( 75-76): 46-36 With
      Message 2 of 7 , May 1 7:57 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        --- Dean Oliver <deano@...> wrote:
        >
        > Since everyone is interested in whether Dantley
        > really has the quals for
        > the HOF, I'd like to look into it a bit more. I am
        > not going to have time
        > in the next week or so to do what I want to do with
        > Adrian Dantley --
        > which is understand how his presence influenced the
        > teams he was on. This
        > is basic -- what were his teams' records before and
        > after his arrival.

        Here's some stuff I dug up. I din't format anything,
        so I hope it all is at least semi-comprehensible.

        Buffalo:

        Records
        Before Dantley ('75-76): 46-36
        With Dantley ('76-77): 30-52
        After Dantley ('77-78): 27-55

        Offense PPG FG%
        Before Dantley: 107.3 .476
        With Dantley: 105.0 .450
        After Dantley: 105.3 .466

        Defense
        Before Dantley: 106.4 .461
        With Dantley: 109.5 .478
        After Dantley: 109.0 .476

        Note: Twenty games into the '76-77 season, Buffalo
        sent Bob McAdoo to the Knicks for John Gianelli and
        cash. They also dealt Jim McMillian--third leading
        scorer in '75-76--before the season. I suspect these
        two deals had something to do with the 16-game drop in
        the standings. Dantley was voted Rookie-of-the-year.

        Dantley was dealt to the Pacers after his rookie
        season, '76-77, who sent him to the Lakers after 23
        games that same season. I have no idea what the with
        and without Dantley breakdowns are for each team, but
        here's how they did for the entire season:

        Indiana:

        Records
        BD ('76-77): 36-46
        WD ('77-78): 31-51
        AD ('78-79): 38-44

        Offense
        BD: 106.8 .449
        WD: 108.6 .450
        AD: 108.6 .475

        Defense
        BD: 108.6 .472
        WD: 111.1 .474
        AD: 110.2 .478

        I don't know how much Dantley could have affected
        Indiana in just 23 games. He was their leading scorer
        at 26.5 ppg. The 7-game increase in '78-79 could have
        been due to the Pacers signing Alex English off of
        Milwaukee's bench as a free agent moreso than ridding
        themselves of Dantley in exchange for James Edwards,
        Earl Tatum and cash.

        Los Angeles

        Records:
        BD ("76-77): 53-29
        WD ('77-78): 45-37
        ('78-79): 47-35
        AD ('79-80): 60-22 NBA Champs

        Offense:
        BD: 106.9 .478
        WD: 110.3 .487
        112.9 .517
        AD: 115.1 .529

        Defense:
        BD: 104.1 .452
        WD: 107.6 .463
        109.9 .484
        AD: 109.2 .470

        Before and during the '77-78 season the Lakers
        replaced four of their five leading scorers--Cazzie
        Russell, Lucious Allen, Kermit Washington and Earl
        Tatum--from the previous season. They replaced these
        four with Dantley, Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon and
        Charlie Scott. It would be difficult, IMO, to lay any
        blame on Dantley for the decrease in wins based on
        this. The year Dantley left for Utah, Magic Johnson
        came aboard via the draft. The rest, as they say, is
        history.

        Utah

        Records
        BD ('78-79): 26-56
        WD ('79-80): 24-58
        ('80-81): 28-54
        ('81-82): 25-57
        ('82-83): 30-52 Dantley injured, played 22 games
        ('83-84): 45-37
        ('84-85): 41-41
        ('85-86): 42-40
        AD ('86-87): 44-38

        Offense
        BD: 108.3 .468
        WD: 102.4 .496
        101.2 .488
        110.9 .494
        109.0 .480
        115.0 .498
        109.0 .476
        108.2 .488
        AD: 107.9 .464

        Defense
        BD: 114.6 .481
        WD: 108.4 .496
        107.1 .489
        116.6 .509
        113.2 .478
        113.8 .476
        109.1 .464
        108.5 .473
        AD: 107.5 .456

        In '82-83, when the def. FG% dropped .031, legendary
        shot-blocker Mark Eaton joined the team. After moving
        from New orleans in '79, the Jazz almost entirely
        rebuilt the team. After that, they went with a
        rotation featuring mainly Dantley, Darrell Griffith
        and Rickey Green, with the likes of Dan Schayes, Ben
        Poquette and John Drew sprinkled in here and there.
        They got as good as mediocre with Dantley as the top
        gun.


        Detroit
        Dantley was dealt from Detroit to Dallas for Mark
        Aguirre midway through the '88-89 season.

        Records
        BD ('85-86): 46-36
        WD ('86-87): 52-30
        ('87-88): 54-28
        WD/AD ('88-89): 63-19 NBA Champions
        AD ('89-90): 59-23 NBA Champions

        Offense
        BD: 114.2 .484
        WD: 111.2 .490
        109.2 .493
        W/AD 106.6 .494
        AD: 104.3 .478

        Defense
        BD: 113.0 .492
        WD: 107.8 .462
        104.1 .467
        A/WD 100.8 .447
        AD: 98.3 .447

        The defense did improve dramatically when Dantley
        arrived. But Dantley replaced Kelly Tripucka, who was
        never confused with a great defender, and added Dennis
        Rodman that year. Since the defense suffered no
        noticeable lapse when Dantley left, I think we can
        safely cradit the improvement to both Rodman and coach
        Chuck Daly. The team did take a great Lakers team to 7
        games in the '88 finals with Dantley playing a major
        role.

        Dallas

        records
        BD ('87-88): 53-29
        B/WD ('88-89): 38-44
        WD: ('89-90): 47-35
        AD: ('90-91): 28-54

        offense
        BD: 109.3 .475
        B/WD: 103.5 .469
        WD: 102.2 .475
        AD: 99.9 .471

        defense
        BD: 104.9 .470
        B/WD: 104.7 .469
        WD: 102.2 .469
        AD: 104.5 .482

        Dallas kept the same Blackman-Harper-Donaldson-Perkins
        core intact during Dantley's stay. Roy Tarpley was an
        infrequent, but impact, roster member. In fact, just
        briely going through the late-eighties Mavs, it seems
        that they were fine as long as Roy Tarpley was healthy
        and in the lineup. It didn't matter if Dantley,
        Aguirre or Morlon Wiley was the SF.

        Milwaukee

        Dantley played ten games for Milwaukee during the
        '90-91 season. As if it matters:

        records
        BD ('89-90): 44-38
        WD ('90-91): 48-34
        AD ('91-92): 31-51

        offense
        BD: 106.0 .473
        WD: 106.4 .480
        AD: 105.0 .460

        defense
        BD: 106.8 .479
        WD: 104.0 .486
        AD: 106.7 .498



        Dantley's most impressive career numbers are 23,177
        points, 24.3 ppg and a .540 career FG%. Pretty
        impressive, but it's appears he didn't have a huge
        effect on the teams he was on. This doesn't even get
        into the seemingly low standards already in place for
        the HOF.

        Ed Weiland





        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
        http://auctions.yahoo.com/
      • msg_53@hotmail.com
        Good work, Ed! Scanning the Dantley history line does show some things. For one, Dantley seems to raise the team shooting pct., which is not surprising, and
        Message 3 of 7 , May 2 4:36 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Good work, Ed!
          Scanning the Dantley history line does show some things. For one,
          Dantley seems to raise the team shooting pct., which is not
          surprising, and the opponents' pct. as well.
          I have the opinion that a coach's job is to substitute players; at
          the pro level, this is perhaps his main job. If a player is getting
          minutes, it must be for a reason. Certainly a player does not get
          playing time because he is hurting his own team.
          A team with very few scoring options goes out and gets a scorer.
          Then, they utilize that guy's abilities. AD was near the league
          leaders in minutes his entire stay in Utah, yet nowhere else.
          In Detroit, where his playoff legacy was made, AD led the Pistons
          in scoring in '87 and '88 despite being 3rd/4th in minutes. Bill
          Laimbeer was the only other frontline scoring threat.
          In 23 playoff games in 1988, Dantley shot 52% while Detroit's
          other Big 3 (Thomas, Dumars, Laimbeer) shot 46%. In the Eastern
          finals, AD's offensive wizardry totally confounded the Celtics, and
          basically ended their dynasty.
          On a bad team, everybody takes the blame, even the player who
          carries the team. Utah was nothing when Dantley arrived (well, some
          nice scenery there); he gave way to the Malone/Stockton era.
          Dantley is at the top of all-time players for career shooting
          pct. When you factor in FTs, he shot over 60%, 2nd only to Gilmore,
          and maybe Reggie Miller (another great one-dimensional player).

          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., Ed Weiland <weiland1029@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Here's some stuff I dug up. I din't format anything,
          > so I hope it all is at least semi-comprehensible.
          >
          > Buffalo:
          >
          > Records
          > Before Dantley ('75-76): 46-36
          > With Dantley ('76-77): 30-52
          > After Dantley ('77-78): 27-55
          >
          > Offense PPG FG%
          > Before Dantley: 107.3 .476
          > With Dantley: 105.0 .450
          > After Dantley: 105.3 .466
          >
          > Defense
          > Before Dantley: 106.4 .461
          > With Dantley: 109.5 .478
          > After Dantley: 109.0 .476
          >
          > Note: Twenty games into the '76-77 season, Buffalo
          > sent Bob McAdoo to the Knicks for John Gianelli and
          > cash. They also dealt Jim McMillian--third leading
          > scorer in '75-76--before the season. I suspect these
          > two deals had something to do with the 16-game drop in
          > the standings. Dantley was voted Rookie-of-the-year.
          >
          > Dantley was dealt to the Pacers after his rookie
          > season, '76-77, who sent him to the Lakers after 23
          > games that same season. I have no idea what the with
          > and without Dantley breakdowns are for each team, but
          > here's how they did for the entire season:
          >
          > Indiana:
          >
          > Records
          > BD ('76-77): 36-46
          > WD ('77-78): 31-51
          > AD ('78-79): 38-44
          >
          > Offense
          > BD: 106.8 .449
          > WD: 108.6 .450
          > AD: 108.6 .475
          >
          > Defense
          > BD: 108.6 .472
          > WD: 111.1 .474
          > AD: 110.2 .478
          >
          > I don't know how much Dantley could have affected
          > Indiana in just 23 games. He was their leading scorer
          > at 26.5 ppg. The 7-game increase in '78-79 could have
          > been due to the Pacers signing Alex English off of
          > Milwaukee's bench as a free agent moreso than ridding
          > themselves of Dantley in exchange for James Edwards,
          > Earl Tatum and cash.
          >
          > Los Angeles
          >
          > Records:
          > BD ("76-77): 53-29
          > WD ('77-78): 45-37
          > ('78-79): 47-35
          > AD ('79-80): 60-22 NBA Champs
          >
          > Offense:
          > BD: 106.9 .478
          > WD: 110.3 .487
          > 112.9 .517
          > AD: 115.1 .529
          >
          > Defense:
          > BD: 104.1 .452
          > WD: 107.6 .463
          > 109.9 .484
          > AD: 109.2 .470
          >
          > Before and during the '77-78 season the Lakers
          > replaced four of their five leading scorers--Cazzie
          > Russell, Lucious Allen, Kermit Washington and Earl
          > Tatum--from the previous season. They replaced these
          > four with Dantley, Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon and
          > Charlie Scott. It would be difficult, IMO, to lay any
          > blame on Dantley for the decrease in wins based on
          > this. The year Dantley left for Utah, Magic Johnson
          > came aboard via the draft. The rest, as they say, is
          > history.
          >
          > Utah
          >
          > Records
          > BD ('78-79): 26-56
          > WD ('79-80): 24-58
          > ('80-81): 28-54
          > ('81-82): 25-57
          > ('82-83): 30-52 Dantley injured, played 22 games
          > ('83-84): 45-37
          > ('84-85): 41-41
          > ('85-86): 42-40
          > AD ('86-87): 44-38
          >
          > Offense
          > BD: 108.3 .468
          > WD: 102.4 .496
          > 101.2 .488
          > 110.9 .494
          > 109.0 .480
          > 115.0 .498
          > 109.0 .476
          > 108.2 .488
          > AD: 107.9 .464
          >
          > Defense
          > BD: 114.6 .481
          > WD: 108.4 .496
          > 107.1 .489
          > 116.6 .509
          > 113.2 .478
          > 113.8 .476
          > 109.1 .464
          > 108.5 .473
          > AD: 107.5 .456
          >
          > In '82-83, when the def. FG% dropped .031, legendary
          > shot-blocker Mark Eaton joined the team. After moving
          > from New orleans in '79, the Jazz almost entirely
          > rebuilt the team. After that, they went with a
          > rotation featuring mainly Dantley, Darrell Griffith
          > and Rickey Green, with the likes of Dan Schayes, Ben
          > Poquette and John Drew sprinkled in here and there.
          > They got as good as mediocre with Dantley as the top
          > gun.
          >
          >
          > Detroit
          > Dantley was dealt from Detroit to Dallas for Mark
          > Aguirre midway through the '88-89 season.
          >
          > Records
          > BD ('85-86): 46-36
          > WD ('86-87): 52-30
          > ('87-88): 54-28
          > WD/AD ('88-89): 63-19 NBA Champions
          > AD ('89-90): 59-23 NBA Champions
          >
          > Offense
          > BD: 114.2 .484
          > WD: 111.2 .490
          > 109.2 .493
          > W/AD 106.6 .494
          > AD: 104.3 .478
          >
          > Defense
          > BD: 113.0 .492
          > WD: 107.8 .462
          > 104.1 .467
          > A/WD 100.8 .447
          > AD: 98.3 .447
          >
          > The defense did improve dramatically when Dantley
          > arrived. But Dantley replaced Kelly Tripucka, who was
          > never confused with a great defender, and added Dennis
          > Rodman that year. Since the defense suffered no
          > noticeable lapse when Dantley left, I think we can
          > safely cradit the improvement to both Rodman and coach
          > Chuck Daly. The team did take a great Lakers team to 7
          > games in the '88 finals with Dantley playing a major
          > role.
          >
          > Dallas
          >
          > records
          > BD ('87-88): 53-29
          > B/WD ('88-89): 38-44
          > WD: ('89-90): 47-35
          > AD: ('90-91): 28-54
          >
          > offense
          > BD: 109.3 .475
          > B/WD: 103.5 .469
          > WD: 102.2 .475
          > AD: 99.9 .471
          >
          > defense
          > BD: 104.9 .470
          > B/WD: 104.7 .469
          > WD: 102.2 .469
          > AD: 104.5 .482
          >
          > Dallas kept the same Blackman-Harper-Donaldson-Perkins
          > core intact during Dantley's stay. Roy Tarpley was an
          > infrequent, but impact, roster member. In fact, just
          > briely going through the late-eighties Mavs, it seems
          > that they were fine as long as Roy Tarpley was healthy
          > and in the lineup. It didn't matter if Dantley,
          > Aguirre or Morlon Wiley was the SF.
          >
          > Milwaukee
          >
          > Dantley played ten games for Milwaukee during the
          > '90-91 season. As if it matters:
          >
          > records
          > BD ('89-90): 44-38
          > WD ('90-91): 48-34
          > AD ('91-92): 31-51
          >
          > offense
          > BD: 106.0 .473
          > WD: 106.4 .480
          > AD: 105.0 .460
          >
          > defense
          > BD: 106.8 .479
          > WD: 104.0 .486
          > AD: 106.7 .498
          >
          >
          >
          > Dantley's most impressive career numbers are 23,177
          > points, 24.3 ppg and a .540 career FG%. Pretty
          > impressive, but it's appears he didn't have a huge
          > effect on the teams he was on. This doesn't even get
          > into the seemingly low standards already in place for
          > the HOF.
          >
          > Ed Weiland
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
          > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
        • Dean Oliver
          ... Thanks, Ed. Exactly what I was curious about. It can be difficult to evaluate players this way because players who are traded often are traded for
          Message 4 of 7 , May 2 8:25 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In APBR_analysis@y..., Ed Weiland <weiland1029@y...> wrote:

            Thanks, Ed. Exactly what I was curious about.

            It can be difficult to evaluate players this way because players who
            are traded often are traded for something viewed as equivalent (at
            least before this era of sign-and-trade/free agency threats). But
            your numbers pretty much rule out Dantley being a significant impact
            team player.

            Dean Oliver
            Journal of Basketball Studies
          • harlanzo@yahoo.com
            Just wondering if Bernard King comes up any differently than Dantley. They are very similar players--with the exception that King wasn t really considered
            Message 5 of 7 , May 3 3:14 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Just wondering if Bernard King comes up any differently than
              Dantley. They are very similar players--with the exception that King
              wasn't really considered selfish or a malcontent. He also has the NY
              ethos on his side. (Who could forget his duel with Bird in 84).
              Most of the teams he played on improved when he came. But he never
              made a team more than a solid first round playoff team. I am not
              sure if an objective look at the evidence indicates he (as the focus
              of team) pushes a team towards a championship. The question is
              whether that makes him better, worse, or the same as Dantley.


              > Thanks, Ed. Exactly what I was curious about.
              >
              > It can be difficult to evaluate players this way because players
              who
              > are traded often are traded for something viewed as equivalent (at
              > least before this era of sign-and-trade/free agency threats). But
              > your numbers pretty much rule out Dantley being a significant
              impact
              > team player.
              >
              > Dean Oliver
              > Journal of Basketball Studies
            • bchaikin@aol.com
              not quite sure on the topic of this dantley discussion, other than dean asking early about whether he belonged in the HOF, but on the comment ...your numbers
              Message 6 of 7 , May 4 1:44 PM
              • 0 Attachment

                not quite sure on the topic of this dantley discussion, other than dean
                asking early about whether he belonged in the HOF, but on the comment
                "...your numbers pretty much rule out dantley being a significant impact team
                player...", i'm really not quite sure i understand that statement...

                was dantley a "team" player? in the strictest sense i'd say no and i believe
                most would agree on that. he got his points and i'd bet half were on
                isolation plays as opposed to being in what most would think of as the "flow"
                of a team offense. he looked to score, and like most players that think of
                scoring first those points probably came at the expense of other teammates
                getting involved in the team offense....

                keep in mind, however, that a scorer like dantley, when surrounded by
                complementary players, is a huge asset to a team. if you didn't know i was
                talking about dantley, and i told you a player averaged 24 pts/g while
                shooting 54% over his entire and very long 15-16 year career, and for one
                long seven year stretch upped those numbers to 30 pts/g and 56% shooting,
                you'd think that player was great. we're not talking about dominique wilkins
                here who despite a ton of dunks shot 46% for his career. over his career
                dantley played on teams that totaled about a .500 record, but he was the
                leading scorer and offensive threat on almost all of those teams...

                i remember around 1989-90 alot of people saying michael jordan would never
                win anything - that he was a scorer (at that point 6 years in the league and
                career avgs of 33 pts/g and 52% shooting) but not a "team" player. well as
                soon as he got a decent team around him chicago won big. now dantley was not
                michael jordan, but when surrounded by a great team (detroit) he did win
                games...

                but was he an "impact" player? that depends on what your definition of an
                impact player is. if your definition of an impact player is bird, magic, and
                m.j., then no he was not....

                but when i think of an "impact" player i think of someone who has an impact
                on the game itself whenever they play, and believe me - for a 10 year stretch
                there, for every team he played on, the opponents of those teams geared their
                defense to stopping him and him specifically, and few did. in the early and
                mid 1980s, i specifically remember dantley being considered a true superstar
                in the league, and i remember how very often he got double teamed and still
                scored while shooting a high FG%....

                i remember chuck daly was quoted once as saying that what dantley did - score
                without taking time off the clock, i.e. he got to the free throw line late in
                games - was extremely important. and its true (however i also remember
                dantley sitting alot of 4th quarters because he didn't play D for
                detroit).....

                he won two scoring crowns, had amazing stats, and played little if any
                defense. does he belong in the hall of fame? well if similar players like
                george gervin, dominique wilkins, and alex english do, then so does
                dantley....

                bob chaikin
                bchaikin@...











              • Dean Oliver
                ... impact team ... statement... What we didn t see were substantial increases in team wins when Dantley arrived, nor did we see substantial decreases in team
                Message 7 of 7 , May 5 8:52 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In APBR_analysis@y..., bchaikin@a... wrote:
                  > "...your numbers pretty much rule out dantley being a significant
                  impact team
                  > player...", i'm really not quite sure i understand that
                  statement...

                  What we didn't see were substantial increases in team wins when
                  Dantley arrived, nor did we see substantial decreases in team wins
                  when Dantley left. That does not mean that he wasn't a good player.
                  It means several _possible_ things:

                  1. When he was traded, he was traded for talent that was about the
                  same as his (Billy Knight in 77, James Edwards in 77, Spencer Haywood
                  in 79, Kelly Tripucka and Kent Benson in 86, Mark Aguirre in 89 - No
                  HOFers)
                  2. His individual skills, as good as they were, did not elevate team
                  performance because his offense was very isolated or because his
                  defense wasn't particularly good (not sure about that).
                  3. Simple bad luck. Detroit and Utah both probably could have
                  gotten great with him sticking around.

                  Before the entire Dantley discussion, his election to the Hall was a
                  foregone conclusion. I remember thinking that he was a legit star of
                  the '80's. Both the numbers and the general discussion of his
                  attitude and style have changed my opinion some. He probably will
                  go, in part because of the consistency argument (similarity to
                  'Nique, Gervin, English), an argument I really dislike. My numbers
                  do indicate he was an excellent offensive (not just good) player and
                  I have a hard time holding team mediocrity against those kind of
                  numbers. I have no problem with him being in the Hall.

                  Dean Oliver
                  Journal of Basketball Studies
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.