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A few questions

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  • HoopStudies
    I m away for a while after today, but here are some of the questions in my head that I won t be able to tackle for a while: 1. Why is Detroit so much better
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 3, 2002
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      I'm away for a while after today, but here are some of the questions
      in my head that I won't be able to tackle for a while:

      1. Why is Detroit so much better this year than last? Offense?
      Defense? Have the new players been important to one or the other?
      Or have Stackhouse, Wallace, etc. improved? (It's weird to
      say "Stackhouse and Wallace" again, just as I did when a different
      Wallace teamed with Stack at UNC.) Detroit should have won more
      games last year, based on their pt differential, but that's not all
      of it by any means.

      2. Is there any team that can beat the Lakers in the playoffs?
      How? Hack-a-Shaq (which we haven't heard anything about this year)?
      Stop the Big Two or stop the peripheral players? Are there any
      characteristics in the wins against the Lakers during the regular
      season that are applicable to the playoffs?

      3. How tight is the Eastern Conference? I don't think the Nets are
      a lock to come out of it at all. I read that Philly could easily
      knock off the 1 seed because Iverson will be back for the playoffs.
      I saw something similar about Charlotte.

      4. Re-evaluation of the Chicago-Indiana trade. MikeG posted some
      facts a couple weeks ago. With Indiana suffering a bit right now,
      I'm curious again. What are the teams' records since the trade?
      Have their been any other changes in individual/team performance? We
      would have expected that Artest's acquisition would have helped
      Indiana's team D. Did it? With Chicago cooling off, I am interested
      in why.

      5. Duke's Jason Williams: How good will he be? Why? Any similar
      players come to mind? How do their stats compare? What about Juan
      Dixon? Lonny Baxter entered the draft last year, but now no one is
      talking about him as even a draft possibility. Any other opinions?
      Has anyone seen this Qyntel Woods guy?

      6. What happened in Houston? Francis was out for a while. Did his
      performance decline, too? They lost Olajuwon, which should have hurt
      the D. Did it decline?

      7. David Stern recently said that because the economy is cooling,
      ticket prices should go down. What drugs is he on?

      That's a decent list.

      DeanO
    • mikel_ind
      ... It looks as though the personnel is better. Comparison of players last year and this year (standardized rates): (Eff. sco reb ast stl blk Total) Stack 01
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 4, 2002
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        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "HoopStudies" <deano@r...> wrote:
        >

        > 1. Why is Detroit so much better this year than last?

        It looks as though the personnel is better. Comparison of players
        last year and this year (standardized rates):

        (Eff. sco reb ast stl blk Total)

        Stack 01 .510 28 4 5 1 1 37
        Stack 02 .509 24 5 6 1 1 35

        Wallace 01 .459 6 14 2 1 2 26
        Wallace 02 .499 8 14 1 2 4 30

        Atkins 01 .477 13 3 5 1 0 22
        Atkins 02 .553 16 3 4 1 0 24

        JSmith 01 .466 14 9 1 1 1 25
        CliffR 02 .492 15 5 3 1 1 26

        Curry 01 .501 8 3 3 1 0 14
        Curry 01 .519 6 3 2 1 0 13

        Cleaves 01 .450 09 3 5 1 0 17
        J Barry 02 .620 15 4 5 2 0 27

        Williamson 01 .547 19 7 1 2 0 28
        Williamson 02 .561 24 7 2 1 1 32

        M Moore 01 .539 10 8 1 1 2 20
        Rebraca 02 .546 15 8 1 1 2 25

        Barros 01 .529 14 3 3 1 0 21
        DJones 02 .539 11 3 4 1 0 19

        Not only a virtual across-the-board improvement in existing and
        replacement players, but a relatively injury-free season.

        Interestingly, Williamson's minutes are down (from 30 to 22) despite
        his scoring punch.


        Mike Goodman
      • mikel_ind
        ... It all depends on Shaq s physical state, or most of it does. You can t count on Fisher and Kobe reaching career heights at once, again. I tend to a
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 4, 2002
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          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "HoopStudies" <deano@r...> wrote:

          > 2. Is there any team that can beat the Lakers in the playoffs?
          > How?

          It all depends on Shaq's physical state, or most of it does. You
          can't count on Fisher and Kobe reaching career heights at once, again.

          I tend to a bell-shaped curve in this regard, so here is one
          breakdown of the Lakers' odds:

          10% Shaq is near full strength: Lakers cruise, again

          20% Shaq is not hitting on all cylinders: Lakers have some rough
          spots, but reach the Finals, and cruise there.

          40% Shaq misses whole games and is unable to go full speed in
          critical stretches: Lakers out in 2nd or 3rd round.

          20% Shaq is barely himself: heroics by others get Lakes to 2nd round,
          maybe.

          10% Shaq is on the shelf for the duration: Lakers win 0 or 1 game.


          The West Playoffs don't give you a break, and Shaq is used to having
          them. I give the Lakes a 30% chance, and the East representative the
          same.

          (subject to change)


          Mike Goodman
        • mikel_ind
          ... are ... playoffs. ... Each team in the East playoffs has probably no better than a 20% chance, and I don t think I am being facetious. Indiana and Toronto
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 4, 2002
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            --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "HoopStudies" <deano@r...> wrote:

            > 3. How tight is the Eastern Conference? I don't think the Nets
            are
            > a lock to come out of it at all. I read that Philly could easily
            > knock off the 1 seed because Iverson will be back for the
            playoffs.
            > I saw something similar about Charlotte.
            >

            Each team in the East playoffs has probably no better than a 20%
            chance, and I don't think I am being facetious.

            Indiana and Toronto are vying for the final spot, and we all know of
            the Pacers' explosiveness in the postseason (as long as Reggie is
            there). So an upset is quite possible at any level.

            Meanwhile, the Raps don't seem to miss Vince at all.

            Every east team has had a terrible stretch or two: Bucks, Pistons,
            Hornets have looked like doormats at times. Nets and Celtics are
            vulnerable, too.

            I will bail and say No Favorites.


            Mike G
          • alleyoop2
            DETROIT: Detroit s improvement has been entirely on offense. I had them ranked 9th in defense last year and 8th this year. Their offense is vastly better
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 4, 2002
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              DETROIT: Detroit's improvement has been entirely on offense. I had
              them ranked 9th in defense last year and 8th this year. Their offense
              is vastly better because three scrubs (Jon Barry, Chucky Atkins and
              Corliss Williamson) are playing out of their minds and they added
              Rebraca.

              LAKERS: Kings maybe, since they'll have home court. I can't see
              anybody else doing it unless Shaq gets hurt.

              EAST: I still think NJ is the favorite, but by a slim margin. Philly,
              Charlotte and Detroit will all be tough. I have no respect at all for
              Milwaukee, I think they're easily the worst of the East's top 7. I
              suppose Toronto could make some noise if Carter's back for the first
              round.

              COLLEGE PLAYERS: I love Chris Wilcox. He killed Drew Gooden and Jared
              Jeffries in back to back games. Baxter is a little short for the NBA
              IMHO, he'd have to play power forward and I don't think he's quick
              enough. Dixon is a tweener but he's smart, can shoot and guard people
              so he may be a very productive third guard. Duke's JWilliams, not
              sure who he reminds me of ... great college players almost always
              lead their team in scoring, but he may be more of an assist man in
              the NBA. We'll have to see.





              --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "HoopStudies" <deano@r...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm away for a while after today, but here are some of the
              questions
              > in my head that I won't be able to tackle for a while:
              >
              > 1. Why is Detroit so much better this year than last? Offense?
              > Defense? Have the new players been important to one or the other?
              > Or have Stackhouse, Wallace, etc. improved? (It's weird to
              > say "Stackhouse and Wallace" again, just as I did when a different
              > Wallace teamed with Stack at UNC.) Detroit should have won more
              > games last year, based on their pt differential, but that's not all
              > of it by any means.
              >
              > 2. Is there any team that can beat the Lakers in the playoffs?
              > How? Hack-a-Shaq (which we haven't heard anything about this
              year)?
              > Stop the Big Two or stop the peripheral players? Are there any
              > characteristics in the wins against the Lakers during the regular
              > season that are applicable to the playoffs?
              >
              > 3. How tight is the Eastern Conference? I don't think the Nets
              are
              > a lock to come out of it at all. I read that Philly could easily
              > knock off the 1 seed because Iverson will be back for the
              playoffs.
              > I saw something similar about Charlotte.
              >
              > 4. Re-evaluation of the Chicago-Indiana trade. MikeG posted some
              > facts a couple weeks ago. With Indiana suffering a bit right now,
              > I'm curious again. What are the teams' records since the trade?
              > Have their been any other changes in individual/team performance?
              We
              > would have expected that Artest's acquisition would have helped
              > Indiana's team D. Did it? With Chicago cooling off, I am
              interested
              > in why.
              >
              > 5. Duke's Jason Williams: How good will he be? Why? Any similar
              > players come to mind? How do their stats compare? What about Juan
              > Dixon? Lonny Baxter entered the draft last year, but now no one is
              > talking about him as even a draft possibility. Any other
              opinions?
              > Has anyone seen this Qyntel Woods guy?
              >
              > 6. What happened in Houston? Francis was out for a while. Did
              his
              > performance decline, too? They lost Olajuwon, which should have
              hurt
              > the D. Did it decline?
              >
              > 7. David Stern recently said that because the economy is cooling,
              > ticket prices should go down. What drugs is he on?
              >
              > That's a decent list.
              >
              > DeanO
            • john wallace craven
              ... Shaq doesn t seem to be going out to defend against the pick and roll once again, which is what sunk the Lakers four years ago at the hands of the Jazz. If
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 4, 2002
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                On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, alleyoop2 wrote:

                > DETROIT: Detroit's improvement has been entirely on offense. I had
                > them ranked 9th in defense last year and 8th this year. Their offense
                > is vastly better because three scrubs (Jon Barry, Chucky Atkins and
                > Corliss Williamson) are playing out of their minds and they added
                > Rebraca.
                >
                > LAKERS: Kings maybe, since they'll have home court. I can't see
                > anybody else doing it unless Shaq gets hurt.

                Shaq doesn't seem to be going out to defend against the pick and roll once
                again, which is what sunk the Lakers four years ago at the hands of the
                Jazz. If this keeps up, teams that run a lot of picks - primarily, I am
                thinking of the Sonics here, who are ironically 6-0 over the last two
                years vs. the Lakers when Shaq plays significant minutes but 0-2 when he
                does not, but also the Mavericks and the Jazz - can outgun the Lakers.
                Note that "can" is not equal to "will"; I would give none of the three
                teams I mentioned better than 50% odds to do so in a 5- or 7-game series.

                Other than those three, I think that San Antonio can also potentially
                outplay the Lakers if Bruce Bowen is healthy. Without Bowen, there is
                really nobody on that team that can hope to contain Kobe Bryant, and both
                the Spurs and the Kings showed last year that if you can't do that, you
                may as well mail it in. The Kings would have their troubles if they played
                LA in the playoffs, although a fully healthy Christie would help this time
                around (not to mention facing a Kobe who wasn't en fuego for the entire
                series - it seemed to me that despite the injuries, Christie was doing a
                credible job of defending him, but Bryant still found a way to hit hard
                jumpers with a hand in his face).

                Portland's another maybe, but it's tough to say which team will show up
                for the playoffs - the one that opened the season looking like a lottery
                team, or the one that went 19-4 in one stretch out of the All-Star Break.
                Minnesota without Terrell Brandon, I hate to say, doesn't have much of a
                chance against any playoff team this year.

                >
                > EAST: I still think NJ is the favorite, but by a slim margin. Philly,
                > Charlotte and Detroit will all be tough. I have no respect at all for
                > Milwaukee, I think they're easily the worst of the East's top 7.

                Yeah, I saw that Boston game they "played" last week on NBC. It was
                horrendous. They look every bit like a team that would be firmly in the
                lottery if the talent was evenly spaced between conferences. I'm not a big
                fan of Detroit - as has been shown elsewhere, an awful lot of their better
                play has been due to a general increase in performance by virtually every
                player on the team, and that looks to me like a team playing slightly over
                its head. Philly needs Iverson at 100% in order to contend, and Jersey
                needs to stay as lucky in terms of avoiding injuries as they were unlucky
                last year.

                > I
                > suppose Toronto could make some noise if Carter's back for the first
                > round.

                IF he's 100%. If he's not (and he's already come back once this season at
                less than his full ability) then I don't see Toronto doing anything. They
                may not even make the playoffs.

                >
                > COLLEGE PLAYERS: I love Chris Wilcox. He killed Drew Gooden and Jared
                > Jeffries in back to back games. Baxter is a little short for the NBA
                > IMHO, he'd have to play power forward and I don't think he's quick
                > enough. Dixon is a tweener but he's smart, can shoot and guard people
                > so he may be a very productive third guard. Duke's JWilliams, not
                > sure who he reminds me of ... great college players almost always
                > lead their team in scoring, but he may be more of an assist man in
                > the NBA. We'll have to see.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "HoopStudies" <deano@r...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I'm away for a while after today, but here are some of the
                > questions
                > > in my head that I won't be able to tackle for a while:
                > >
                > > 1. Why is Detroit so much better this year than last? Offense?
                > > Defense? Have the new players been important to one or the other?
                > > Or have Stackhouse, Wallace, etc. improved? (It's weird to
                > > say "Stackhouse and Wallace" again, just as I did when a different
                > > Wallace teamed with Stack at UNC.) Detroit should have won more
                > > games last year, based on their pt differential, but that's not all
                > > of it by any means.
                > >
                > > 2. Is there any team that can beat the Lakers in the playoffs?
                > > How? Hack-a-Shaq (which we haven't heard anything about this
                > year)?
                > > Stop the Big Two or stop the peripheral players? Are there any
                > > characteristics in the wins against the Lakers during the regular
                > > season that are applicable to the playoffs?
                > >
                > > 3. How tight is the Eastern Conference? I don't think the Nets
                > are
                > > a lock to come out of it at all. I read that Philly could easily
                > > knock off the 1 seed because Iverson will be back for the
                > playoffs.
                > > I saw something similar about Charlotte.
                > >
                > > 4. Re-evaluation of the Chicago-Indiana trade. MikeG posted some
                > > facts a couple weeks ago. With Indiana suffering a bit right now,
                > > I'm curious again. What are the teams' records since the trade?
                > > Have their been any other changes in individual/team performance?
                > We
                > > would have expected that Artest's acquisition would have helped
                > > Indiana's team D. Did it? With Chicago cooling off, I am
                > interested
                > > in why.
                > >
                > > 5. Duke's Jason Williams: How good will he be? Why? Any similar
                > > players come to mind? How do their stats compare? What about Juan
                > > Dixon? Lonny Baxter entered the draft last year, but now no one is
                > > talking about him as even a draft possibility. Any other
                > opinions?
                > > Has anyone seen this Qyntel Woods guy?
                > >
                > > 6. What happened in Houston? Francis was out for a while. Did
                > his
                > > performance decline, too? They lost Olajuwon, which should have
                > hurt
                > > the D. Did it decline?
                > >
                > > 7. David Stern recently said that because the economy is cooling,
                > > ticket prices should go down. What drugs is he on?
                > >
                > > That's a decent list.
                > >
                > > DeanO
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                >
                >
                >
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                >
                >
                >
              • Ed Weiland
                ... I like the Net s chances. I feel they re clearly the best team in the EC and will remain so even with the return of Iverson and Carter to their respective
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 6, 2002
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                  --- HoopStudies <deano@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 3. How tight is the Eastern Conference? I don't
                  > think the Nets are
                  > a lock to come out of it at all. I read that Philly
                  > could easily
                  > knock off the 1 seed because Iverson will be back
                  > for the playoffs.
                  > I saw something similar about Charlotte.

                  I like the Net's chances. I feel they're clearly the
                  best team in the EC and will remain so even with the
                  return of Iverson and Carter to their respective
                  teams. That said, the Nets aren't so much better then
                  the EC field that they can afford a misstep. I'd agree
                  that Charlotte and Philly are the most likely to
                  surprise. Both have the bruising inside game that
                  could give NJ some grief. The EC playoffs should be
                  fun, but the fact that whoever comes out of it is
                  certain to be devoured by the WC champ takes some of
                  intrigue out of it.


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                • Ed Weiland
                  ... Here are some numbers from Laker losses with Shaq in the lineup (I only used those losses since it s probably safe to assume the Lakers are toast without
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 6, 2002
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                    --- HoopStudies <deano@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > 2. Is there any team that can beat the Lakers in
                    > the playoffs?
                    > How? Hack-a-Shaq (which we haven't heard anything
                    > about this year)?
                    > Stop the Big Two or stop the peripheral players?
                    > Are there any
                    > characteristics in the wins against the Lakers
                    > during the regular
                    > season that are applicable to the playoffs?

                    Here are some numbers from Laker losses with Shaq in
                    the lineup (I only used those losses since it's
                    probably safe to assume the Lakers are toast without
                    the big guy):

                    In losses with Shaq in the lineup here are the ppg and
                    FG%:

                    Kobe 23.0 .403
                    Fox 5.9 .378
                    Fisher 10.8 .355
                    Hunter 4.7 .368
                    George 4.5 .346
                    Horry 7.4 .393
                    Shaq 27.5 .542

                    all other games:

                    Kobe 26.1 .485
                    Fox 8.4 .435
                    Fisher 11.1 .422
                    Hunter 6.2 .388
                    George 4.5 .424
                    Horry 6.8 .404
                    Shaq 26.5 .588

                    This would seem to suggest that a team would want to a
                    least expend a little effort on guarding the
                    peripheral guys. I also get that impression watching
                    the Lakers. That players like Fisher, Fox and Horry
                    will kill a team if not watched closely enough. That's
                    a tall order when a team has both Shaq and Kobe to
                    account for to begin with. Someone mentioned a
                    defensive guy like Bowen being a key and I would agree
                    with that. If a team has a Bowen that can keep Kobe in
                    check, it makes everyone elses job easier. Ron Artest
                    dogged Kobe pretty well in the Bulls sweep of the
                    Lakers and, IIRC, Ruben Patterson handles him pretty
                    well also.

                    I also that teams beating the Shaq-led Lakers also
                    often had someone like Brevin Knight, Dean Garrett,
                    Marcus Fizer, Voshon Lenard or Ruben Patterson step
                    off the bench and have a career game. That never
                    hurts, but is probably something a playoff team won't
                    be able to count on.
                    >
                    I thought the Spurs made somewhat of a statement
                    against the Lakers, even though they had that same old
                    gutless look about them at crunchtime of last Sunday's
                    game. They blew the Lakers out in SA and the Lakers
                    were lucky to get out of the Staples center with a win
                    in the rematch. At the very least that has to get the
                    champs thinking.

                    The WC playoffs should be pretty darn good, though I
                    felt the same way last year at this time. There are
                    eight excellent teams, as opposed to the EC where it's
                    the eight teams that don't suck as much as the rest.
                    The Lakers have to be considered the favorites if Shaq
                    is good to go, but I don't think it's a given that
                    they're going to three-peat.

                    Ed Weiland

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                  • Ed Weiland
                    I mean the one from Duke. I looked at great PGs and tried to find a common thread in their college careers. It seems for every rule there is at least on
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 6, 2002
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                      I mean the one from Duke. I looked at great PGs and
                      tried to find a common thread in their college
                      careers. It seems for every rule there is at least on
                      exception. The most common trait seems to be a .500+
                      FG %, but there's Magic who only shot .468 at MSU and
                      Payton who was at .485. A high assist rate is also a
                      good indicator, but John Stockton and Isiah Thomas
                      had relatively average assist rates in college. At
                      least compared with other PGs. One possible reason for
                      that could be the slow pace the game was played at in
                      pre 45-second clock days. Anyone else remember the
                      four cornerzzzzzzzz offense? It's also important to
                      both get to the line a lot and be able to score a lot
                      of points.

                      Anyway, here are some past and current PGs and some of
                      their college numbers compared with Williams. The
                      numbers listed are FG%, FT Attempts, assists and
                      points per 40 minutes.

                      Mo Cheeks .572 6.21 7.17 17.09
                      Stockton .559 5.14 6.56 15.87
                      I Thomas .534 6.54 6.54 17.79
                      R Strickland .534 6.08 7.74 20.11
                      G Grant .528 4.22 6.90 20.97
                      Francis .523 6.02 5.82 22.18
                      Snow .521 3.12 8.41 9.38
                      Nixon .518 4.99 6.44 23.91
                      A Miller .513 5.66 7.18 16.12
                      Richardson .513 3.12 7.75 13.60
                      B Davis .503 5.85 5.64 17.52

                      C Beck .498 6.01 6.95 11.76
                      Mayberry .495 3.38 6.48 17.19
                      Av Johnson .494 2.29 12.98 9.95

                      M Price .487 4.34 4.43 19.05
                      Payton .485 4.34 8.29 19.19
                      T Hardaway .484 5.84 6.30 17.75
                      Brandon .484 5.81 5.79 23.23
                      J Williams (Mem) .483 4.00 8.60 19.74
                      Cassell .478 5.19 4.93 20.67
                      D Harper .478 2.70 5.28 12.31
                      K Johnson .477 5.61 5.46 17.36
                      Pack .476 6.12 7.00 16.80
                      K Anderson .473 5.35 7.30 24.07
                      Bogues .473 2.68 8.76 11.05
                      Kidd .468 6.14 10.01 17.78

                      Magic .468 8.28 9.28 18.91
                      Blaylock .457 3.16 6.87 19.78
                      Marbury .457 4.88 4.79 20.19
                      Stoudamire .457 4.74 7.23 20.17
                      Best .456 4.32 6.15 18.27
                      Bibby .456 4.83 6.71 19.00
                      P Hardaway .456 6.02 6.48 21.80
                      J Williams (Duke) .453 5.84 7.42 23.95
                      Iverson .440 10.41 5.64 28.25
                      Knight .416 8.00 8.43 18.51
                      Van Exel .409 4.69 5.03 20.95

                      I sort of cut it off here, as the list is getting long
                      and there's really no one else of note. These are
                      career numbers. I couldn't find any NCAA TO numbers
                      for some of these guys, otherwise I would have tossed
                      those into the mix. Looking at Jason Williams, he
                      doesn't seem to resemble the all-time greats,
                      especially in FG pct. I'm not sure he even rates with
                      Francis, Baron Davis and Andre Miller from that great
                      '99 PG class, but he looks pretty close. He does look
                      better than Marbury and Bibby and some other recent
                      ones. He gets to the line plenty, a skill that could
                      keep him from meeting the same fate as Gary Grant and
                      Lee Mayberry, a couple of recent college studs who
                      never got it going in the NBA.

                      My guess is he'll be a solid player for a long time.
                      If he gets in with the right bunch of players, he
                      could be a borderline all-star. On the wrong team or
                      constantly injured he could become Kenny Anderson. It
                      looks like a weak draft and right now Williams looks
                      like the first or second pick. That and his POY, Duke
                      golden boy status could label Williams as a savior for
                      some franchise. That's a good thing in that he'll
                      probably play a ton of minutes. It's a bad thing if
                      he's stuck with bad teammates, because he doesn't seem
                      to possesss the superstar qualities that can turn a
                      bad franchise around. If he's expected to do such, his
                      career, or at least the start of it, could be
                      disappointing.

                      Ed Weiland

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                    • HoopStudies
                      ... The pace has to be used to account for both assists and ppg. In fact, what you see with PG s in college is that they will score a bit more and pass a bit
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 7, 2002
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                        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., Ed Weiland <weiland1029@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Payton who was at .485. A high assist rate is also a
                        > good indicator, but John Stockton and Isiah Thomas
                        > had relatively average assist rates in college. At
                        > least compared with other PGs. One possible reason for
                        > that could be the slow pace the game was played at in
                        > pre 45-second clock days. Anyone else remember the
                        > four cornerzzzzzzzz offense? It's also important to
                        > both get to the line a lot and be able to score a lot
                        > of points.
                        >

                        The pace has to be used to account for both assists and ppg. In
                        fact, what you see with PG's in college is that they will score a bit
                        more and pass a bit less. Basically, they are relatively better
                        shooters in college than they are when they get to the pros.
                        Typically. It makes the evaluation a little more tricky.

                        With Williams, it's really hard to say what teams are hoping from him
                        in the NBA. A shooting PG like Marbury? Or someone who tones it
                        down a bit? Clearly not a pure distributor.

                        > Anyway, here are some past and current PGs and some of
                        > their college numbers compared with Williams. The
                        > numbers listed are FG%, FT Attempts, assists and
                        > points per 40 minutes.
                        >
                        > Mo Cheeks .572 6.21 7.17 17.09
                        > Stockton .559 5.14 6.56 15.87
                        > I Thomas .534 6.54 6.54 17.79
                        > R Strickland .534 6.08 7.74 20.11
                        > G Grant .528 4.22 6.90 20.97
                        > Francis .523 6.02 5.82 22.18
                        > Snow .521 3.12 8.41 9.38
                        > Nixon .518 4.99 6.44 23.91
                        > A Miller .513 5.66 7.18 16.12
                        > Richardson .513 3.12 7.75 13.60
                        > B Davis .503 5.85 5.64 17.52
                        >
                        > C Beck .498 6.01 6.95 11.76
                        > Mayberry .495 3.38 6.48 17.19
                        > Av Johnson .494 2.29 12.98 9.95
                        >
                        > M Price .487 4.34 4.43 19.05
                        > Payton .485 4.34 8.29 19.19
                        > T Hardaway .484 5.84 6.30 17.75

                        Watching Williams, I am reminded of Tim Hardaway. Rick Barry
                        constantly rips on Jason Williams for his 38% 3pt shooting last
                        year. He is a bit off base because Williams shot better last year
                        and, frankly, 38% isn't bad. But I don't think he has a pure
                        stroke. I also think that he is strong enough to do some of the
                        things that Hardaway does against other PGs, without great height.

                        > Brandon .484 5.81 5.79 23.23
                        > J Williams (Mem) .483 4.00 8.60 19.74
                        > Cassell .478 5.19 4.93 20.67
                        > D Harper .478 2.70 5.28 12.31
                        > K Johnson .477 5.61 5.46 17.36
                        > Pack .476 6.12 7.00 16.80
                        > K Anderson .473 5.35 7.30 24.07
                        > Bogues .473 2.68 8.76 11.05
                        > Kidd .468 6.14 10.01 17.78
                        >
                        > Magic .468 8.28 9.28 18.91
                        > Blaylock .457 3.16 6.87 19.78
                        > Marbury .457 4.88 4.79 20.19
                        > Stoudamire .457 4.74 7.23 20.17
                        > Best .456 4.32 6.15 18.27
                        > Bibby .456 4.83 6.71 19.00
                        > P Hardaway .456 6.02 6.48 21.80
                        > J Williams (Duke) .453 5.84 7.42 23.95
                        > Iverson .440 10.41 5.64 28.25
                        > Knight .416 8.00 8.43 18.51
                        > Van Exel .409 4.69 5.03 20.95
                        >

                        The other player I occasionally think of with Williams, though he is
                        quite different, is Mark Jackson, who isn't on this list.

                        Turnovers really are a key number in evaluating PGs. Williams does
                        turn the ball over a lot, but, as Ed says, it's hard to find old
                        stats on TO's, so the comparison is difficult. But you really don't
                        want to see your PGs turning the ball over doing non-aggressive
                        things. If they turn it over being agressive, that's ok. Measuring
                        that is challenging, but possible.... Also, you do need to look at
                        shooting from 3pt land vs just shooting from 2pt land... Height and
                        strength are big things in being able to overcome some of the
                        statistical deficiencies. If we can somehow get electronic stats for
                        college kids, we could make some headway, but we'd need to get them
                        for even the guys who don't make it to the NBA.

                        DeanO
                      • Michael K. Tamada
                        On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, HoopStudies wrote: [...] ... Yes, a key often overlooked statistical requirement: a control group or comparison group, otherwise we re
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 7, 2002
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                          On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, HoopStudies wrote:

                          [...]

                          > statistical deficiencies. If we can somehow get electronic stats for
                          > college kids, we could make some headway, but we'd need to get them
                          > for even the guys who don't make it to the NBA.

                          Yes, a key often overlooked statistical requirement: a control group or
                          comparison group, otherwise we're looking at a biased sample, namely
                          college players good enough to make it into the NBA.


                          --MKT
                        • Michael K. Tamada
                          On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Ed Weiland wrote: [...] ... [...] Has anyone ever tried to convert NCAA stats into predictions of NBA stats, as people do with minor league
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 10, 2002
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                            On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Ed Weiland wrote:

                            [...]

                            > Anyway, here are some past and current PGs and some of
                            > their college numbers compared with Williams. The
                            > numbers listed are FG%, FT Attempts, assists and
                            > points per 40 minutes.
                            >
                            > Mo Cheeks .572 6.21 7.17 17.09
                            > Stockton .559 5.14 6.56 15.87

                            [...]

                            Has anyone ever tried to convert NCAA stats into predictions
                            of NBA stats, as people do with minor league and major
                            league baseball? My guess is that the prediction errors would
                            be very large for the NBA (and who knows, they may be large
                            for baseball as well, I'm not sure how much faith to put
                            into those minor-league-to-major-league conversion factors).

                            Sometimes a good-looking college player like Michael Jordan
                            turns into an extraordinary NBA player like Michael Jordan.
                            Conversely, those 32+ ppg scorers like Freeman Williams,
                            Averitt, Birdsong, Maravich, etc. rarely match their college
                            scoring exploits.

                            Quality of the team they're on, quality of opposition, style
                            of play (slowdown vs pro-level fastbreak vs Westhead level
                            mania) would have to be taken into account.



                            --MKT
                          • Ed Weiland
                            ... I suspect some sort of workable system could be created. I ve been rating college players for a few years now using a good stuff minus bad stuff type of
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 10, 2002
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                              --- "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > Has anyone ever tried to convert NCAA stats into
                              > predictions
                              > of NBA stats, as people do with minor league and
                              > major
                              > league baseball? My guess is that the prediction
                              > errors would
                              > be very large for the NBA (and who knows, they may
                              > be large
                              > for baseball as well, I'm not sure how much faith to
                              > put
                              > into those minor-league-to-major-league conversion
                              > factors).
                              >
                              > Sometimes a good-looking college player like Michael
                              > Jordan
                              > turns into an extraordinary NBA player like Michael
                              > Jordan.
                              > Conversely, those 32+ ppg scorers like Freeman
                              > Williams,
                              > Averitt, Birdsong, Maravich, etc. rarely match their
                              > college
                              > scoring exploits.


                              >
                              >

                              I suspect some sort of workable system could be
                              created. I've been rating college players for a few
                              years now using a "good stuff minus bad stuff" type of
                              system. It seems to work OK for centers and PFs, but
                              not so well for guards and SFs.

                              Problems that come up:

                              Height. In college ball some players can excel as a
                              6'4 PF or a 6'7 center. In the NBA that won't fly.
                              Keith Booth, Jarrett Stephens and Harold Arceneaux are
                              some recent college players who rated pretty high
                              stat-wise, but were just too short.

                              Pace of game. Some teams, like Duke and Kansas, like
                              to push the ball. Others, like Utah, like to slow it
                              down. As we know, this affects individual numbers. The
                              problem is seperating the good players--i.e. Elton
                              Brand--from the guys with inflated stats--i.e. Stacey
                              King and Bo Kimble. That's probably what the camps are
                              for.

                              Early entry. It's much easier to judge a player with
                              3-4 years of college than it is to judge a player with
                              one year. MOst freshman aren't anywhere near being
                              finished products, so there's a lot of projection
                              involved there.

                              Superstar teammates. Vince Carter played second fiddle
                              to Antawn Jamison at Carolina. His numbers were OK,
                              but hardly eye-popping, other than the .591 FG pct.
                              his junior year. Vince gets to the pros and he's a
                              superstar.

                              There are other things too, but I see by the clock in
                              the lower right corner of my screen that I have to get
                              going now.

                              Ed Weiland

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                            • HoopStudies
                              ... Ed did a good job listing factors. This superstar teammate factor is one that I want to understand using those curves I put out many emails ago. I think
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 10, 2002
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                                --- In APBR_analysis@y..., Ed Weiland <weiland1029@y...> wrote:
                                > Superstar teammates. Vince Carter played second fiddle
                                > to Antawn Jamison at Carolina. His numbers were OK,
                                > but hardly eye-popping, other than the .591 FG pct.
                                > his junior year. Vince gets to the pros and he's a
                                > superstar.

                                Ed did a good job listing factors. This superstar teammate factor is
                                one that I want to understand using those curves I put out many
                                emails ago. I think there are shifts in the curves we can identify
                                based on context. I think there is also a basic shift just going up
                                a level. Carter was extremely efficient in college at a fairly high,
                                but not overly high, number of possessions per minute. Jordan was
                                the same. Both of these guys were tall for the 2G slot, so they
                                wouldn't then see the kind of decline a 6'3" 2G like David Sanders
                                (Ole Miss) will see, who is similarly efficient.

                                Big men like the 7-footers do not have the height problem since they
                                join the league without serious changes in their opposition, except
                                in strength, which we account for with the NCAA-NBA shift, I think.

                                This is a worthy project. Anyone want to add to the measurable or
                                possibly measurable factors we should consider?

                                Dean Oliver
                              • alleyoop2
                                I ve farted around with this from time to time and never got any results that I thought were even mildly accurate. Here s what I perceive as the main
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 10, 2002
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                                  I've farted around with this from time to time and never got any
                                  results that I thought were even mildly accurate. Here's what I
                                  perceive as the main obstacles:

                                  1) Adjusting for game pace

                                  2) Adjusting for strength of schedule

                                  3) The fact that the rules are different. Here's one example: Let's
                                  say there's a guy named "Allen" who can create his own shot whenever
                                  he wants but only makes 43% of his tries. In college, you have 45
                                  seconds to get a better shot, so this guy isn't nearly as valuable as
                                  he will be in the pros.

                                  4) Adjusting for the closer three-point line. Not sure how you
                                  differentiate who has NBA range from who doesn't.

                                  5) One of the first questions NBA guys ask when they look at a player
                                  is "Who can he guard?" - that's pretty much left out of their
                                  statistics.

                                  6) Adjusting for the quality of the players own team. This one kills
                                  me. It seems to me that role players on top-level teams can have
                                  similar stats and wildly divergent results in the NBA. For one
                                  example that I worked with, look at the stats for Andre Hutson and
                                  Richard Jefferson last year. Both were role players on top-level
                                  teams. Hutson's numbers are in many ways more eye-popping than
                                  Jefferson's. Yet Jefferson is a key player on one of the league's
                                  best teams this year; Hutson bags groceries. Chris Wilcox is going to
                                  be another one; he was the number three weapon on his team this year
                                  yet has NBA power forward written all over him. Is there a way to
                                  capture that type of thing statistically?





                                  --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "HoopStudies" <deano@r...> wrote:
                                  > --- In APBR_analysis@y..., Ed Weiland <weiland1029@y...> wrote:
                                  > > Superstar teammates. Vince Carter played second fiddle
                                  > > to Antawn Jamison at Carolina. His numbers were OK,
                                  > > but hardly eye-popping, other than the .591 FG pct.
                                  > > his junior year. Vince gets to the pros and he's a
                                  > > superstar.
                                  >
                                  > Ed did a good job listing factors. This superstar teammate factor
                                  is
                                  > one that I want to understand using those curves I put out many
                                  > emails ago. I think there are shifts in the curves we can identify
                                  > based on context. I think there is also a basic shift just going
                                  up
                                  > a level. Carter was extremely efficient in college at a fairly
                                  high,
                                  > but not overly high, number of possessions per minute. Jordan was
                                  > the same. Both of these guys were tall for the 2G slot, so they
                                  > wouldn't then see the kind of decline a 6'3" 2G like David Sanders
                                  > (Ole Miss) will see, who is similarly efficient.
                                  >
                                  > Big men like the 7-footers do not have the height problem since
                                  they
                                  > join the league without serious changes in their opposition, except
                                  > in strength, which we account for with the NCAA-NBA shift, I think.
                                  >
                                  > This is a worthy project. Anyone want to add to the measurable or
                                  > possibly measurable factors we should consider?
                                  >
                                  > Dean Oliver
                                • harlanzo
                                  I think the baseball translations work a little better than a basketball one would. The important thing to recognize is that translations in baseball seem to
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 10, 2002
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                                    I think the baseball translations work a little better than a
                                    basketball one would. The important thing to recognize is that
                                    translations in baseball seem to vary by league. Similarly in
                                    basketball, a 20 ppg scorer in the ivy league does not equal to one
                                    in the ACC. So I am not sure how to quantify this difference. The
                                    only two ways to do this is by comparing the success of players from
                                    these conferences and run something proportionally. Of course this
                                    is problematic because so few players from the inferior conferences
                                    make the NBA that the sample size is too small to make a meaningful
                                    projection. You might generalize between confernences of similar
                                    ability (ie super conferences, mid-size conferences, and small
                                    timers) and thus create a bigger pool for comparison. (You could
                                    also only look at stats of small time players when they play big
                                    schools).

                                    on top of this issue, is the fact that most stats are dependents on
                                    systems and opportunity in basketball much more so than in baseball
                                    which could also skew comparisons.



                                    --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "HoopStudies" <deano@r...> wrote:
                                    > --- In APBR_analysis@y..., Ed Weiland <weiland1029@y...> wrote:
                                    > > Superstar teammates. Vince Carter played second fiddle
                                    > > to Antawn Jamison at Carolina. His numbers were OK,
                                    > > but hardly eye-popping, other than the .591 FG pct.
                                    > > his junior year. Vince gets to the pros and he's a
                                    > > superstar.
                                    >
                                    > Ed did a good job listing factors. This superstar teammate factor
                                    is
                                    > one that I want to understand using those curves I put out many
                                    > emails ago. I think there are shifts in the curves we can identify
                                    > based on context. I think there is also a basic shift just going
                                    up
                                    > a level. Carter was extremely efficient in college at a fairly
                                    high,
                                    > but not overly high, number of possessions per minute. Jordan was
                                    > the same. Both of these guys were tall for the 2G slot, so they
                                    > wouldn't then see the kind of decline a 6'3" 2G like David Sanders
                                    > (Ole Miss) will see, who is similarly efficient.
                                    >
                                    > Big men like the 7-footers do not have the height problem since
                                    they
                                    > join the league without serious changes in their opposition, except
                                    > in strength, which we account for with the NCAA-NBA shift, I think.
                                    >
                                    > This is a worthy project. Anyone want to add to the measurable or
                                    > possibly measurable factors we should consider?
                                    >
                                    > Dean Oliver
                                  • thedawgsareout
                                    ... Yes, the baseball translations are not just by level, but by league. The Pacific Coast League, for example, is AAA, as is the International League, but the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 11, 2002
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                                      --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...> wrote:
                                      > I think the baseball translations work a little better than a
                                      > basketball one would. The important thing to recognize is that
                                      > translations in baseball seem to vary by league. Similarly in
                                      > basketball, a 20 ppg scorer in the ivy league does not equal to one
                                      > in the ACC. So I am not sure how to quantify this difference.

                                      Yes, the baseball translations are not just by level, but by league.
                                      The Pacific Coast League, for example, is AAA, as is the
                                      International League, but the IL is considered a higher-quality
                                      league. The way these translations work is with a MLE -- Minor League
                                      Equivalency, developed, like everything else, by Bill James.

                                      The first of many problems we find in trying to do the same for the
                                      NCAA is that even within the leagues themselves, teams are playing
                                      widely variant schedules. About 40% of games are going to be non-
                                      conference ones, and assuredly Oregon State isn't playing the same
                                      non-conference teams as Arizona.

                                      Team quality also isn't a problem in baseball thanks to the
                                      development of team-independent stats. As hard as we may try -- and
                                      Dean's column about the effect of Jerry Stackhouse on the Pistons was
                                      quite interesting -- it's still tough to de-context a player's stats,
                                      and I imagine doubly so for NCAA players.

                                      I think what is a more reasonable goal for the time being might be to
                                      try to look at what *types* of players make for good pros. It's been
                                      mentioned that both Carter and Jordan were high-efficiency guys on
                                      very good teams. Is this type of player particularly successful in
                                      making the transition? Basically, I guess this gets back to the four
                                      types of players (high-efficiency, low productivity . . .) that were
                                      discussed way back in January. Is any specific group translating to
                                      the pro game better than the others? Why?
                                    • mikel_ind
                                      ... Draw a DNA sample, and look for the work ethic gene. Mike Goodman
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 11, 2002
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                                        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "thedawgsareout" <kpelton08@h...> wrote:
                                        >.... try to look at what *types* of players make for good pros.


                                        Draw a DNA sample, and look for the "work ethic" gene.


                                        Mike Goodman
                                      • HoopStudies
                                        ... These are not big hurdles. Game pace is definitely not too bad. Strength of schedule can be accounted for using Sagarin s number or Massey s number or...
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 11, 2002
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                                          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "alleyoop2" <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                                          > I've farted around with this from time to time and never got any
                                          > results that I thought were even mildly accurate. Here's what I
                                          > perceive as the main obstacles:
                                          >
                                          > 1) Adjusting for game pace
                                          >
                                          > 2) Adjusting for strength of schedule
                                          >

                                          These are not big hurdles. Game pace is definitely not too bad.
                                          Strength of schedule can be accounted for using Sagarin's number or
                                          Massey's number or... I frankly don't perfectly trust strength of
                                          schedule numbers, but they are a start and there are bigger hurdles
                                          to leap.

                                          > 3) The fact that the rules are different. Here's one example: Let's
                                          > say there's a guy named "Allen" who can create his own shot
                                          whenever
                                          > he wants but only makes 43% of his tries. In college, you have 45
                                          > seconds to get a better shot, so this guy isn't nearly as valuable
                                          as
                                          > he will be in the pros.
                                          >

                                          Creating your own shot without loss of efficiency is more valuable in
                                          the NBA. I'm working on this.

                                          Any other examples of critical rule differences?

                                          > 4) Adjusting for the closer three-point line. Not sure how you
                                          > differentiate who has NBA range from who doesn't.
                                          >

                                          I'd start off with a straight reduction in percentage. Also have the
                                          adjustments mentioned before for height.

                                          > 5) One of the first questions NBA guys ask when they look at a
                                          player
                                          > is "Who can he guard?" - that's pretty much left out of their
                                          > statistics.
                                          >

                                          Yeah, this is a big one. This one was really important in the
                                          late '80's and into the '90's when "athletes" were seen as more
                                          valuable than basketball players. That is changing a bit with the
                                          success of the nonathletic European basketball players (thank
                                          goodness). But it is still important. We have no fundamental
                                          measure of defensive quickness or good hands or defensive desire.
                                          Defense in general is tough and it is a big factor in determining
                                          playing time in the NBA.

                                          > 6) Adjusting for the quality of the players own team. This one
                                          kills
                                          > me. It seems to me that role players on top-level teams can have
                                          > similar stats and wildly divergent results in the NBA. For one
                                          > example that I worked with, look at the stats for Andre Hutson and
                                          > Richard Jefferson last year. Both were role players on top-level
                                          > teams. Hutson's numbers are in many ways more eye-popping than
                                          > Jefferson's. Yet Jefferson is a key player on one of the league's
                                          > best teams this year; Hutson bags groceries. Chris Wilcox is going
                                          to
                                          > be another one; he was the number three weapon on his team this
                                          year
                                          > yet has NBA power forward written all over him. Is there a way to
                                          > capture that type of thing statistically?

                                          The fact that Hutson really isn't getting a chance makes this
                                          comparison difficult, I think. Scouts look FIRST at whether they
                                          have an NBA body and NBA athleticism, then they look at their
                                          skills. It's mainly because that is what they see first and what
                                          they are trained to see first. You are supposed to go down to the
                                          floor and get a sense of size, strength, jumping ability. For some
                                          reason, there is this belief that you can teach the basketball skills.

                                          Still, assuming the scouts were right and that Hutson doesn't have
                                          NBA skills, it appears to be due to him being undersized (maybe not
                                          quick enough) for the skills he exhibited. There is some mismatch
                                          between height (measurable), strength (possibly measurable),
                                          quickness (uhhh), and style of game (uh-oh). Jefferson had the
                                          height, quickness, and style of game to go to the next level. Hutson
                                          didn't meet these requirements (apparently), even if he had the
                                          stats.

                                          I do think that boxscores are going to be critical to doing better in
                                          all of this. That's not going to be a fun task to work on...almost
                                          as little fun as collecting the DNA that MikeG wants. Although with
                                          all the paternity suits floating around, maybe getting DNA won't be
                                          so bad.

                                          So, does anyone have good college stats we can all look at? They are
                                          pretty hard to get, actually, in any consistent format.


                                          DeanO
                                        • Ed Weiland
                                          ... Hutson was listed at 6 8 240. Hardly tiny, but not exactly what you want in your PF either. Especially since Hutson is the unathletic grinder type. He
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 12, 2002
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                                            --- HoopStudies <deano@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > Still, assuming the scouts were right and that
                                            > Hutson doesn't have
                                            > NBA skills, it appears to be due to him being
                                            > undersized (maybe not
                                            > quick enough) for the skills he exhibited. There is
                                            > some mismatch
                                            > between height (measurable), strength (possibly
                                            > measurable),
                                            > quickness (uhhh), and style of game (uh-oh).
                                            > Jefferson had the
                                            > height, quickness, and style of game to go to the
                                            > next level. Hutson
                                            > didn't meet these requirements (apparently), even if
                                            > he had the
                                            > stats.

                                            Hutson was listed at 6'8 240. Hardly tiny, but not
                                            exactly what you want in your PF either. Especially
                                            since Hutson is the unathletic grinder type. He played
                                            in Europe this past season and I think Milwaukee (the
                                            team that drafted Hutson in the 2nd round) has plans
                                            for him. We may get to see him yet.
                                            >
                                            > I do think that boxscores are going to be critical
                                            > to doing better in
                                            > all of this. That's not going to be a fun task to
                                            > work on...almost
                                            > as little fun as collecting the DNA that MikeG
                                            > wants. Although with
                                            > all the paternity suits floating around, maybe
                                            > getting DNA won't be
                                            > so bad.
                                            >
                                            > So, does anyone have good college stats we can all
                                            > look at? They are
                                            > pretty hard to get, actually, in any consistent
                                            > format.

                                            The Usenet draft page :

                                            http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/usenet.html

                                            This page lists stats on prospects going back to the
                                            '94 draft. They have the complete stats, including
                                            turnovers. That might be a start. I'm not sure they
                                            have all the players listed though.

                                            Ed Weiland




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