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Re: [APBR_analysis] Re: Kidd/Marbury - Stojakovic/Webber

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  • bchaikin@aol.com
    the difference was illustrated last season with peja stojakovic s shooting percentages. they fell dramatically when chris webber returned from injury. why?
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 6, 2005
      the difference was illustrated last season with peja stojakovic's shooting percentages. they fell dramatically when chris webber returned from injury. why? peja shoots a lot of contested shots; however, with miller or especially vlade, he received perfect passes. webber holds the ball an extra second trying to create for himself and does not make the perfect pass. the difference is peja shooting with a hand at his waist and a hand in his face. it's a small thing, but when so much of the offense is preicated on tht pass and shot, it becomes a big thing.
       
      don't know if you have the stats to verify this for the few games when webber came back near the end of last season (peja's FG%s with and w/o webber), but even if you did the overall stats over the past 4 seasons, plus this season, don't appear to bare this assumption out...
       
      stojakovic
       G    MIN   2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
      75   2905   .501    .400     .568       2000-01
      71   2649   .510    .416     .583       2001-02
      72   2450   .545    .382     .592       2002-03
      81   3264   .511    .433     .614       2003-04
      26   1024   .493    .382     .578       2004-05
       
      webber
       G  MIN    2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
      70  2836   .488    .071    .509        2000-01
      54  2071   .499    .263    .531        2001-02
      67  2622   .465    .238    .479        2002-03
      23    831   .416    .200    .450        2003-04
      24    856   .457    .300    .481        2004-05
       
      these numbers seem to show that these two played together alot in 00-01, 01-02, and 02-03, plus this 04-05 season, and while admittedly peja had his best shooting season in 03-04 while webber was gone, he has shot just about as well with webber. his 2pt FG% in 03-04 of .511 was similar to the previous 3 seasons with webber, actually better with webber in 02-03, and his 3pt FG% of .433 in 03-04, while better than earlier seasons, isn't much different (43% in 03-04 compared to 42% in 01-02 when webber played 54 games, and 40% in 00-01 when webber played 70 games)....
       
      bob chaikin
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • Coach McCormick
      but, last season was his first with miller. i dont have the stats, but peja s scoring average and shooting % dropped last season when webber returned and itwas
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 6, 2005
        but, last season was his first with miller. i dont have the stats, but peja's scoring average and shooting % dropped last season when webber returned and itwas visually apparent why. webb does not pass the ball as well as miller or vlade. miller or vlade give better pases that lead directly into peja's shot.
         
        also, if you figure tat he ended the season at .433 % last year, and that dropped in the last 15-20 games, he was likely over .440 before webber's return. his career high is .416. i'd say a 2.5-3.0% increase is a substantial improvement considering the number of shot attempts; and that is abve his career high. that's nearly 6% better than this season...

        bchaikin@... wrote:
        the difference was illustrated last season with peja stojakovic's shooting percentages. they fell dramatically when chris webber returned from injury. why? peja shoots a lot of contested shots; however, with miller or especially vlade, he received perfect passes. webber holds the ball an extra second trying to create for himself and does not make the perfect pass. the difference is peja shooting with a hand at his waist and a hand in his face. it's a small thing, but when so much of the offense is preicated on tht pass and shot, it becomes a big thing.
         
        don't know if you have the stats to verify this for the few games when webber came back near the end of last season (peja's FG%s with and w/o webber), but even if you did the overall stats over the past 4 seasons, plus this season, don't appear to bare this assumption out...
         
        stojakovic
         G    MIN   2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
        75   2905   .501    .400     .568       2000-01
        71   2649   .510    .416     .583       2001-02
        72   2450   .545    .382     .592       2002-03
        81   3264   .511    .433     .614       2003-04
        26   1024   .493    .382     .578       2004-05
         
        webber
         G  MIN    2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
        70  2836   .488    .071    .509        2000-01
        54  2071   .499    .263    .531        2001-02
        67  2622   .465    .238    .479        2002-03
        23    831   .416    .200    .450        2003-04
        24    856   .457    .300    .481        2004-05
         
        these numbers seem to show that these two played together alot in 00-01, 01-02, and 02-03, plus this 04-05 season, and while admittedly peja had his best shooting season in 03-04 while webber was gone, he has shot just about as well with webber. his 2pt FG% in 03-04 of .511 was similar to the previous 3 seasons with webber, actually better with webber in 02-03, and his 3pt FG% of .433 in 03-04, while better than earlier seasons, isn't much different (43% in 03-04 compared to 42% in 01-02 when webber played 54 games, and 40% in 00-01 when webber played 70 games)....
         
        bob chaikin
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         


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      • John Hollinger
        It s not the passes, it s the personalities. Peja was lights out in the second half of 02-03, with Webber and no Miller, once his plantar fascitis went away --
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 7, 2005
          It's not the passes, it's the personalities. Peja was lights out in
          the second half of 02-03, with Webber and no Miller, once his plantar
          fascitis went away -- just as good as the start of his Webber-less 03-
          04. The difference is that when Webber came back this year, he had
          publicly bitched out Peja and Peja had asked for a trade, and it
          shows on the court. Watch a Kings game from a few years ago -- Webber
          and Peja ran a two-man dribble-handoff game that was almost
          unguardable. They rarely even attempt it anymore.


          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Coach McCormick
          <highfivehoopschool@y...> wrote:
          > but, last season was his first with miller. i dont have the stats,
          but peja's scoring average and shooting % dropped last season when
          webber returned and itwas visually apparent why. webb does not pass
          the ball as well as miller or vlade. miller or vlade give better
          pases that lead directly into peja's shot.
          >
          > also, if you figure tat he ended the season at .433 % last year,
          and that dropped in the last 15-20 games, he was likely over .440
          before webber's return. his career high is .416. i'd say a 2.5-3.0%
          increase is a substantial improvement considering the number of shot
          attempts; and that is abve his career high. that's nearly 6% better
          than this season...
          >
          > bchaikin@a... wrote:
          > the difference was illustrated last season with peja stojakovic's
          shooting percentages. they fell dramatically when chris webber
          returned from injury. why? peja shoots a lot of contested shots;
          however, with miller or especially vlade, he received perfect passes.
          webber holds the ball an extra second trying to create for himself
          and does not make the perfect pass. the difference is peja shooting
          with a hand at his waist and a hand in his face. it's a small thing,
          but when so much of the offense is preicated on tht pass and shot, it
          becomes a big thing.
          >
          > don't know if you have the stats to verify this for the few games
          when webber came back near the end of last season (peja's FG%s with
          and w/o webber), but even if you did the overall stats over the past
          4 seasons, plus this season, don't appear to bare this assumption
          out...
          >
          > stojakovic
          > G MIN 2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
          > 75 2905 .501 .400 .568 2000-01
          > 71 2649 .510 .416 .583 2001-02
          > 72 2450 .545 .382 .592 2002-03
          > 81 3264 .511 .433 .614 2003-04
          > 26 1024 .493 .382 .578 2004-05
          >
          > webber
          > G MIN 2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
          > 70 2836 .488 .071 .509 2000-01
          > 54 2071 .499 .263 .531 2001-02
          > 67 2622 .465 .238 .479 2002-03
          > 23 831 .416 .200 .450 2003-04
          > 24 856 .457 .300 .481 2004-05
          >
          > these numbers seem to show that these two played together alot in
          00-01, 01-02, and 02-03, plus this 04-05 season, and while admittedly
          peja had his best shooting season in 03-04 while webber was gone, he
          has shot just about as well with webber. his 2pt FG% in 03-04 of .511
          was similar to the previous 3 seasons with webber, actually better
          with webber in 02-03, and his 3pt FG% of .433 in 03-04, while better
          than earlier seasons, isn't much different (43% in 03-04 compared to
          42% in 01-02 when webber played 54 games, and 40% in 00-01 when
          webber played 70 games)....
          >
          > bob chaikin
          > bchaikin@b...
          >
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        • bchaikin@aol.com
          It s not the passes, it s the personalities. Peja was lights out in the second half of 02-03, with Webber and no Miller, once his plantar fascitis went away
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 7, 2005

            It's not the passes, it's the personalities. Peja was lights out in the second half of 02-03, with Webber and no Miller, once his plantar fascitis went away -- just as good as the start of his Webber-less 03-04. The difference is that when Webber came back this year, he had
            publicly bitched out Peja and Peja had asked for a trade, and it shows on the court. Watch a Kings game from a few years ago -- Webber and Peja ran a two-man dribble-handoff game that was almost unguardable. They rarely even attempt it anymore.
             
            agreed - the stats over the past four seasons, and this year so far, show they played together an awful lot, and during that time peja shot quite well and webber got his assists, for a lot longer period of time than the few games (what - all of 20-25 games?) in 03-04 where webber came back from injury..

            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Coach McCormick
            <highfivehoopschool@y...> wrote:
            > but, last season was his
            first with miller. i dont have the stats, but peja's scoring average and shooting % dropped last season when webber returned and itwas visually apparent why. webb does not pass the ball as well as miller or vlade. miller or vlade give better pases that lead directly into peja's shot.

            >
            also, if you figure tat he ended the season at .433 % last year, and that dropped in the last 15-20 games, he was likely over .440 before webber's return. his career high is .416. i'd say a 2.5-3.0% increase is a substantial improvement considering the number of shot attempts; and that is abve his career high. that's nearly 6% better than this season...
            >
            > bchaikin@a...
            wrote:
            > the difference was illustrated last season with peja stojakovic's
            shooting percentages. they fell dramatically when chris webber returned from injury. why? peja shoots a lot of contested shots; however, with miller or especially vlade, he received perfect passes. webber holds the ball an extra second trying to create for himself and does not make the perfect pass. the difference is peja shooting with a hand at his waist and a hand in his face. it's a small thing,
            but when so much of the offense is preicated on tht pass and shot, it becomes a big thing.
            sorry, but i was in fact not the author of this last paragraph above... i am however the author of the next paragraph...
             
            > don't know if you have the stats to verify this for the few games when webber came back near the end of last season (peja's FG%s with and w/o webber), but even if you did the overall stats over the past 4 seasons, plus this season, don't appear to bare this assumption out...

            >
            stojakovic
            >  G    MIN   2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
            >
            75   2905   .501    .400     .568       2000-01
            > 71   2649  
            .510    .416     .583       2001-02
            > 72   2450   .545    .382 
               .592       2002-03
            > 81  
            3264   .511    .433     .614       2003-04
            > 26   1024   .493   
            .382     .578       2004-05

            > webber
            >  G  MIN    2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
            >
            70  2836   .488    .071    .509        2000-01
            > 54  2071   .499   
            .263    .531        2001-02
            > 67 
            2622   .465    .238    .479        2002-03
            > 23    831   .416   
            .200    .450        2003-04
            > 24 
              856   .457    .300    .481        2004-05

            > these numbers seem to show that
            these two played together alot in 00-01, 01-02, and 02-03, plus this 04-05 season, and while admittedly peja had his best shooting season in 03-04 while webber was gone, he has shot just about as well with webber. his 2pt FG% in 03-04 of .511 was similar to the previous 3 seasons with webber, actually better with webber in 02-03, and his 3pt FG% of .433 in 03-04, while better than earlier seasons, isn't much different (43% in 03-04 compared to 42% in 01-02 when webber played 54 games, and 40% in 00-01 when webber played 70 games)....
            am not the author of these next 2 italicized paragraphs..
             
            but, last season was his first with miller. i dont have the stats, but peja's scoring average and shooting % dropped last season when webber returned and itwas visually apparent why. webb does not pass the ball as well as miller or vlade. miller or vlade give better pases that lead directly into peja's shot.
             
            also, if you figure that he ended the season at .433 % last year, and that dropped in the last 15-20 games, he was likely over .440 before webber's return. his career high is .416. i'd say a 2.5-3.0% increase is a substantial improvement considering the number of shot attempts; and that is abve his career high. that's nearly 6% better than this season..
             
            i disagree - to say webber does not pass the ball as well as both brad miller and vlade divac flies in the face of the stats. webber's had 10 seasons (including 04-05) where he's passed for 4 or more ast/g, and is now passing for 5 ast/g and did also in 02-03. divac has had a longer career than webber and has passed for 4+ ast/g only 3 times, and miller has passed for 4 ast/g only once. i'd say one who objectively looks at the stats would agree that webber has been one of the best passing power forwards in the game over the past decade....
             
            the year peja shot .433 from 3pt range he shot 240/554. he shot between 38% and 42% in his previous seasons playing alongside webber (and is shooting 38% now playing alongside webber). if he had shot that low 38% on those 554 3pt attempts, that would be .38 x 554 = 210 3pters made. so that's only a difference of 30 3pters made in the worst shooting stojakovic ever had when playing alongside webber versus what peja shot last season. you really mean to tell me you can account for that differense as being due solely to chris webber, and not any other factors?...
             
            bob chaikin
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
          • Coach McCormick
            Whatever. For being a group dedicated to analysis, you sure miss the point. Remember, basketball is played on the court, not on paper. bchaikin@aol.com wrote:
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 7, 2005
              Whatever. For being a group dedicated to analysis, you sure miss the point. Remember, basketball is played on the court, not on paper.
               
              bchaikin@... wrote:

              It's not the passes, it's the personalities. Peja was lights out in the second half of 02-03, with Webber and no Miller, once his plantar fascitis went away -- just as good as the start of his Webber-less 03-04. The difference is that when Webber came back this year, he had
              publicly bitched out Peja and Peja had asked for a trade, and it shows on the court. Watch a Kings game from a few years ago -- Webber and Peja ran a two-man dribble-handoff game that was almost unguardable. They rarely even attempt it anymore.
               
              agreed - the stats over the past four seasons, and this year so far, show they played together an awful lot, and during that time peja shot quite well and webber got his assists, for a lot longer period of time than the few games (what - all of 20-25 games?) in 03-04 where webber came back from injury..

              --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Coach McCormick
              <highfivehoopschool@y...> wrote:
              > but, last season was his first with miller. i dont have the stats, but peja's scoring average and shooting % dropped last season when webber returned and itwas visually apparent why. webb does not pass the ball as well as miller or vlade. miller or vlade give better pases that lead directly into peja's shot.

              > also, if you figure tat he ended the season at .433 % last year, and that dropped in the last 15-20 games, he was likely over .440 before webber's return. his career high is .416. i'd say a 2.5-3.0% increase is a substantial improvement considering the number of shot attempts; and that is abve his career high. that's nearly 6% better than this season...
              >
              > bchaikin@a... wrote:
              > the difference was illustrated last season with peja stojakovic's shooting percentages. they fell dramatically when chris webber returned from injury. why? peja shoots a lot of contested shots; however, with miller or especially vlade, he received perfect passes. webber holds the ball an extra second trying to create for himself and does not make the perfect pass. the difference is peja shooting with a hand at his waist and a hand in his face. it's a small thing,
              but when so much of the offense is preicated on tht pass and shot, it becomes a big thing.
              sorry, but i was in fact not the author of this last paragraph above... i am however the author of the next paragraph...
               
              > don't know if you have the stats to verify this for the few games when webber came back near the end of last season (peja's FG%s with and w/o webber), but even if you did the overall stats over the past 4 seasons, plus this season, don't appear to bare this assumption out...

              > stojakovic
              >  G    MIN   2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
              > 75   2905   .501    .400     .568       2000-01
              > 71   2649   .510    .416     .583       2001-02
              > 72   2450   .545    .382     .592       2002-03
              > 81   3264   .511    .433     .614       2003-04
              > 26   1024   .493    .382     .578       2004-05

              > webber
              >  G  MIN    2FG% 3FG% ScFG%
              > 70  2836   .488    .071    .509        2000-01
              > 54  2071   .499    .263    .531        2001-02
              > 67  2622   .465    .238    .479        2002-03
              > 23    831   .416    .200    .450        2003-04
              > 24    856   .457    .300    .481        2004-05

              > these numbers seem to show that these two played together alot in 00-01, 01-02, and 02-03, plus this 04-05 season, and while admittedly peja had his best shooting season in 03-04 while webber was gone, he has shot just about as well with webber. his 2pt FG% in 03-04 of .511 was similar to the previous 3 seasons with webber, actually better with webber in 02-03, and his 3pt FG% of .433 in 03-04, while better than earlier seasons, isn't much different (43% in 03-04 compared to 42% in 01-02 when webber played 54 games, and 40% in 00-01 when webber played 70 games)....
              am not the author of these next 2 italicized paragraphs..
               
              but, last season was his first with miller. i dont have the stats, but peja's scoring average and shooting % dropped last season when webber returned and itwas visually apparent why. webb does not pass the ball as well as miller or vlade. miller or vlade give better pases that lead directly into peja's shot.
               
              also, if you figure that he ended the season at .433 % last year, and that dropped in the last 15-20 games, he was likely over .440 before webber's return. his career high is .416. i'd say a 2.5-3.0% increase is a substantial improvement considering the number of shot attempts; and that is abve his career high. that's nearly 6% better than this season..
               
              i disagree - to say webber does not pass the ball as well as both brad miller and vlade divac flies in the face of the stats. webber's had 10 seasons (including 04-05) where he's passed for 4 or more ast/g, and is now passing for 5 ast/g and did also in 02-03. divac has had a longer career than webber and has passed for 4+ ast/g only 3 times, and miller has passed for 4 ast/g only once. i'd say one who objectively looks at the stats would agree that webber has been one of the best passing power forwards in the game over the past decade....
               
              the year peja shot .433 from 3pt range he shot 240/554. he shot between 38% and 42% in his previous seasons playing alongside webber (and is shooting 38% now playing alongside webber). if he had shot that low 38% on those 554 3pt attempts, that would be .38 x 554 = 210 3pters made. so that's only a difference of 30 3pters made in the worst shooting stojakovic ever had when playing alongside webber versus what peja shot last season. you really mean to tell me you can account for that differense as being due solely to chris webber, and not any other factors?...
               
              bob chaikin
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               


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