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Kidd/Marbury

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  • doc319
    There is an interesting take on this issue by Paul Forrester at http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/paul_forrester/01/05/ma rbury.carter/index.html
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 5, 2005
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      There is an interesting take on this issue by Paul Forrester at
      http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/paul_forrester/01/05/ma
      rbury.carter/index.html
    • Mike G
      ... http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/paul_forrester/01/05/ma ... Marbury says he s the best PG in the league? And this Forrester guy equates that
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 6, 2005
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        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "doc319" <doc319@y...> wrote:
        >
        > There is an interesting take on this issue by Paul Forrester at
        >
        http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/paul_forrester/01/05/ma
        > rbury.carter/index.html

        Marbury says he's the best PG in the league? And this Forrester guy
        equates that to assuming the throne of Magic and Stockton.

        Maybe Marbs is just reading the rankings. Unless Iverson is really
        a PG, I'd have to say he isn't far off the mark; there just aren't
        any allstar-level point guards this year. Kidd, Cassell, and Andre
        have all dropped off the chart:

        My per-36 rates. Baron Davis' numbers are for only 10 games.

        Rate point guard sco reb ast

        38.0 Davis,Baron 24 3 8
        37.5 Iverson,Allen 27 4 7
        33.2 Francis,Steve 21 6 7
        33.2 Marbury,Stephon 21 3 8
        32.8 Tinsley,Jamaal 17 5 8
        32.6 Nash,Steve 18 3 11
        32.0 Billups,Chauncey 19 4 7
        31.0 Parker,Tony 19 5 7
        30.8 Arenas,Gilbert 23 4 5
        30.0 Hinrich,Kirk 17 4 7

        28.8 Cassell,Sam 19 3 7
        28.3 Kidd,Jason 12 8 8
        28.1 Bibby,Mike 17 4 6
        27.5 Alston,Rafer 15 4 7
        27.3 Knight,Brevin 9 3 12
        27.0 Daniels,Antonio 16 3 6
        26.8 Miller,Andre 16 4 6
        25.8 Jaric,Marko 12 4 7
        25.8 Stoudamire,Damon 13 4 7
        25.7 Williams,Jason 15 2 8

        25.6 Jackson,Bobby 18 5 3
        25.4 Hart,Jason 11 3 8
        25.4 Terry,Jason 14 3 6
        25.3 Claxton,Speedy 14 4 7
        25.0 Mcinnis,Jeff 17 3 6
        24.7 Payton,Gary 14 3 7
        24.7 Ridnour,Luke 11 3 8
        24.7 Watson,Earl 13 3 8
        24.3 Gordon,Ben 21 4 3

        Rookie Gordon is listed as PG (by Doug Steele), but I don't see how
        he could be. Hinrich and Duhon total 60 MPG. Same goes for
        BJackson; at least half his minutes are alongside Bibby.

        Resolving "who is most valuable?" in Phoenix: several good points
        are raised. It's easier to get assists when you have strong
        finishers. It's easier to score when you have the distributor.

        How is it that Team Improvement should be more significant than Team
        Wins? Kidd's 2nd year in Jersey was much better than his first.
        Where did all the hype go?

        Who was the more valuable player in the 2001 Finals? Iverson or
        Shaq? Was it even close? How about '02, Kidd vs. Shaq ?

        As for Stoudemire: Do great individual defenders (Garnett) not slow
        him down at all?
      • Coach McCormick
        From a coaching perspective, I ll add a few comments that I believe Forrester was getting at, as I have always thought the same thing about Marbury and Carter.
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 6, 2005
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          From a coaching perspective, I'll add a few comments that I believe Forrester was getting at, as I have always thought the same thing about Marbury and Carter.
           
          Marbury is a great talent. As Forrester says, just good enough to tempt people to want to trade for him but not good enough to want to keep him around. The problem is he does not make people better. He dribbles too much and tries to create something for himself first and foremost. The fact tht his teammates get open looks because of this is more accident than anything else. Nash also dribbles a lot but he dribbles to set-up teammates. His teammates know that when he is dribbling, he isn't going to take a bad shot, he is looking for them to cut and get open for a shot. Therefore, as a teammate, one players harder for and with nash than marbury because the understanding is Nash will reward the effort while marbury likely does not even notice.
           
          there are a number of very talented players who are similar (Webber, Abdur-Rahim, Brand, Randolph, Francis). they are great talents who will never win a championship because they can't make teammates better, despite what assist averages may say. assists are a difficuly stat to meausre because it requires somebody else making a shot-if i pass to peja in the corner and he has his man all over him and he makes a miraculous shot, why am i rewarded with an assist? however, i may drive on a 3 v 2 break, make a great move to draw both defenders and then my teammate blows a dunk or makes the extra pass to the more open teammate and he gets the assist, even though it resulted from my move and first pass-hockey's assist on the assist. tim duncan's passing is greatly underappreciated because his teammates rotate the ball: he passes out to an open shooter which forces a elp defender to scramble and parker/ginobili/etc make the extra pass to bown or barry for the wide open three. parker/gnobili id not create the open shot; duncan did. but, parker/ginobili get the assist IF the shot is made.
           
          a few years ago i touched on the importance of passing in an article:
          the difference was illustrated last seasonw ith peja stojakovic's shooting percentages. they fell dramatically when chris webber returned from injury. why? peja shoots a lot of contested shots; however, with miller or especially vlade, he received perfect passes. webber holds the ball an extra second trying to create for himself and does not make the perfect pass. the difference is peja shooting with a hand at his waist and a hand in his face. it's a small thing, but when so much of the offense is preicated on tht pass and shot, it becomes a big thing.
          with a lot of guards, vision and th ability to get the ball there is the measure by whcih we annoint the best passers, as opposed to the players who get the ball there in perfect position that makes the shot as simple as possible. and, this cannot be measured by any statistic.

          Mike G <msg_53@...> wrote:

          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "doc319" <doc319@y...> wrote:
          >
          > There is an interesting take on this issue by Paul Forrester at
          >
          http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/paul_forrester/01/05/ma
          > rbury.carter/index.html

          Marbury says he's the best PG in the league?  And this Forrester guy
          equates that to assuming the throne of Magic and Stockton.

          Maybe Marbs is just reading the rankings.  Unless Iverson is really
          a PG, I'd have to say he isn't far off the mark; there just aren't
          any allstar-level point guards this year.  Kidd, Cassell, and Andre
          have all dropped off the chart:

          My per-36 rates.  Baron Davis' numbers are for only 10 games.

          Rate    point guard    sco     reb     ast

          38.0      Davis,Baron      24      3      8
          37.5      Iverson,Allen      27      4      7
          33.2      Francis,Steve      21      6      7
          33.2      Marbury,Stephon      21      3      8
          32.8      Tinsley,Jamaal      17      5      8
          32.6      Nash,Steve      18      3      11
          32.0      Billups,Chauncey      19      4      7
          31.0      Parker,Tony      19      5      7
          30.8      Arenas,Gilbert      23      4      5
          30.0      Hinrich,Kirk      17      4      7

          28.8      Cassell,Sam      19      3      7
          28.3      Kidd,Jason      12      8      8
          28.1      Bibby,Mike      17      4      6
          27.5      Alston,Rafer      15      4      7
          27.3      Knight,Brevin      9      3      12
          27.0      Daniels,Antonio      16      3      6
          26.8      Miller,Andre      16      4      6
          25.8      Jaric,Marko      12      4      7
          25.8      Stoudamire,Damon      13      4      7
          25.7      Williams,Jason      15      2      8

          25.6      Jackson,Bobby      18      5      3
          25.4      Hart,Jason      11      3      8
          25.4      Terry,Jason      14      3      6
          25.3      Claxton,Speedy      14      4      7
          25.0      Mcinnis,Jeff      17      3      6
          24.7      Payton,Gary      14      3      7
          24.7      Ridnour,Luke      11      3      8
          24.7      Watson,Earl      13      3      8
          24.3      Gordon,Ben      21      4      3

          Rookie Gordon is listed as PG (by Doug Steele), but I don't see how
          he could be.  Hinrich and Duhon total 60 MPG.  Same goes for
          BJackson; at least half his minutes are alongside Bibby.

          Resolving "who is most valuable?" in Phoenix: several good points
          are raised.  It's easier to get assists when you have strong
          finishers.  It's easier to score when you have the distributor.

          How is it that Team Improvement should be more significant than Team
          Wins?  Kidd's 2nd year in Jersey was much better than his first. 
          Where did all the hype go?

          Who was the more valuable player in the 2001 Finals?  Iverson or
          Shaq?  Was it even close?  How about '02, Kidd vs. Shaq ?

          As for Stoudemire: Do great individual defenders (Garnett) not slow
          him down at all?




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