Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Statistical definitions

Expand Messages
  • HoopStudies
    It would all be easier if the leagues started just recording team possessions as several coaches do in college and high school. I certainly didn t invent the
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 22, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      It would all be easier if the leagues started just recording team
      possessions as several coaches do in college and high school. I
      certainly didn't invent the concept of possessions. Dean Smith might
      have been the first, though even that is debatable. But he was doing
      it for Frank McGuire at UNC in the '50's and continued having an
      assistant do it throughout his tenure there. His disciples and
      numerous others in college hoops have tracked this on their own. It
      is a very USEFUL number for us. It is pretty innocuous to most fans -
      - "what is this for?"

      I actually do have a breakdown of team rebounds and team turnovers
      for last year (I am waaaaay behind in doing so this year). Do I use
      it? Not so much. As JohnM said, it would be useful to get stuff
      like this for the calculation of possessions, but simply tallying
      them would be best and easiest (the league already has official play-
      by-plays and could count alternates in possession to get possessions).

      Dean Oliver
      Journal of Basketball Studies

      --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, John Maxwell wrote:
      >
      > > > Collecting and reporting team rebounds is a fine enough idea,
      but I hope
      > > > you're not advocating that they be added to the rebound totals
      for each
      > > > team, as currently reported. The current team totals, which
      are the sum
      >
      > [...]
      >
      > > I agree about Dead-ball Rebounds, but I'm not so certain about
      Team
      > > rebounds. Granted, end of quarter desperation shots that get
      credited as
      >
      > [...]
      >
      > > individual under similar circumstances. It may be that Team
      rebounds don't
      > > tell us anything more about a team's rebounding prowess, but I
      think they
      > > would be helpful to systems such as Dean O's that use possessions
      as a
      > > factor in evaulating teams and players. Since an offensive
      rebound is merely
      > > a continuation of the same possession, it would be nice to know
      how many
      > > Team offensive rebounds a team has in a particular game to be
      able to count
      > > the number of possessions more accurately.
      >
      > The point about having a complete count of rebounds, individual and
      team,
      > in order to completely count possessions is a good one. But the
      rebound
      > stats alone won't do the trick, we also need to have more detailed
      info on
      > missed FTs. Some missed FTs result in a "team offensive rebound"
      because
      > the shooter gets the ball back and gets to shoot his second (or
      third)
      > FTA. (Or is it a "team deadball rebound"? -- but as far as I can
      tell,
      > the NBA doesn't distinguish between team rebounds and deadball
      rebounds;
      > all missed shots either end up as individual rebounds or team
      rebounds.)
      >
      > Other missed FTs are missed shots which create true rebound
      opportunities;
      > if Shaq misses a FTA but Horry sneaks in and grabs the offensive
      rebound,
      > that's a true offensive rebound. In fact it's one of the most
      devastating
      > rebounds in basketball, given that at least 90% of the time, the
      defensive
      > team grabs those missed FTs.
      >
      > Those are two very different plays with different implications for
      the
      > team that missed the FT. But unless we distinguish between
      the "true"
      > missed shots which result in "true" rebound opportunities which
      determine
      > possession, versus the bogus ones such as the first missed FT of two
      > attempts, keeping track of those rebound stats won't be enough to
      allow us
      > to truly count possessions.
      >
      >
      > A truly complete tracking of rebounds and possessions would not only
      > distinguish between offensive and defensive rebounds, and
      individual and
      > team rebounds, but also between whether (a) the missed shot was a
      missed
      > FGA or a missed FTA and (b) it a missed FTA, whether possession
      rode on
      > the rebound (i.e. last FTA), or was possession automatically
      determined
      > (i.e. first of 2 or 3 FTAs; or second of 3; or FTA off of a
      technical foul
      > or flagrant foul).
      >
      >
      > --MKT
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.