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What other information on draftees?

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  • Dean Oliver
    I ve asked this question of a few people in the NBA and not gotten the kind of answer I d like. Maybe it s the way I ask it. I dunno. If you could ask for
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 24, 2004
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      I've asked this question of a few people in the NBA and not gotten the
      kind of answer I'd like. Maybe it's the way I ask it. I dunno.

      If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential draftees,
      what would it be? Anything you can think of, measurements, more
      practice games against other draftees, intelligence tests, references
      from their fingerpainting teachers, the genetic makeup of their
      parents -- use your imagination!

      Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite classes in school and I
      just gotta think that is not what would help.

      In particular, if you can think about guys you were wrong on, either
      that they were better than you thought or worse than you thought --
      what else would you have liked to know?

      DeanO

      Dean Oliver
      Author, Basketball on Paper
      http://www.basketballonpaper.com
      "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary strike for statistical
      analysis of the game of basketball..." Hoopsworld.com's Kevin Pelton
    • Stephen Greenwell
      In particular, if you can think about guys you were wrong on, either that they were better than you thought or worse than you thought -- what else would you
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 24, 2004
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        In particular, if you can think about guys you were wrong on, either
        that they were better than you thought or worse than you thought --
        what else would you have liked to know? 

        DeanO

        Since I didn't find this info when I was looking up information on Jameer Nelson...

        1) Statistical info against JUST good competition.  NCAA teams, NIT teams, bad teams with a good player in an opposing position.  As it stands, relevant info is smushed together with 85% shooting performances against D-2 Methodist Christian of Tennessee.

        2) The classes that a player took, not just their GPA and major, and how similar students at the university did in those classes.

        3) A sort of VORP or equivalency for their HS or European league.  Impossibly complex though, I'm sure.

        Stephen Greenwell
      • Daniel Dickey
        ... Actual measured wingspan and height from the ground to the top of fingertips if the player reaches straight up flatfooted. It seems like these two things
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 24, 2004
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          >From: "Dean Oliver" <deano@...>
          >Reply-To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
          >To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [APBR_analysis] What other information on draftees?
          >Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 04:19:55 -0000
          >
          >If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential draftees,
          >what would it be? Anything you can think of, measurements, more
          >practice games against other draftees, intelligence tests, references
          >from their fingerpainting teachers, the genetic makeup of their
          >parents -- use your imagination!

          Actual measured wingspan and height from the ground to the top of fingertips
          if the player reaches straight up flatfooted. It seems like these two
          things would be WAY more valuable than the guy's height.

          True measured vertical leap, 40 time, and max bench (or maybe reps at a
          decent weight) would be interesting too.

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        • Daniel Dickey
          ... Well - you can look at the player s game by game stats on the player ESPN pages. I haven t tried - but you may be able to copy/paste the data in excel -
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 24, 2004
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            >From: Stephen Greenwell <sgre6768@...>
            >Reply-To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
            >To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [APBR_analysis] What other information on draftees?
            >Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:28:12 -0400
            >
            >1) Statistical info against JUST good competition. NCAA teams, NIT teams,
            >bad teams with a >good player in an opposing position. As it stands,
            >relevant info is smushed together with 85% >shooting performances against
            >D-2 Methodist Christian of Tennessee.

            Well - you can look at the player's game by game stats on the player ESPN
            pages. I haven't tried - but you may be able to copy/paste the data in
            excel - and delete the games you think are too cupcake like.

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          • Stephen Greenwell
            ... That s what I had to resort to, but it seems like an easy task that could be done by ESPN already; they manage to have around 200 different statistical
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 24, 2004
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              > >From: Stephen Greenwell <sgre6768@...>
              > >Reply-To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: Re: [APBR_analysis] What other information on draftees?
              > >Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:28:12 -0400
              > >
              > >1) Statistical info against JUST good competition. NCAA teams, NIT teams,
              > >bad teams with a >good player in an opposing position. As it stands,
              > >relevant info is smushed together with 85% >shooting performances against
              > >D-2 Methodist Christian of Tennessee.
              >
              >Well - you can look at the player's game by game stats on the player ESPN
              >pages. I haven't tried - but you may be able to copy/paste the data in
              >excel - and delete the games you think are too cupcake like.

              That's what I had to resort to, but it seems like an easy task that could
              be done by ESPN already; they manage to have around 200 different
              statistical splits for baseball. Also, they only keep stats for the past
              two years, which makes looking at stats beyond that hard. Also, since my
              college doesn't offer an Excel course that I can take without two
              prerequisites, I still have to hunker down and teach myself things besides
              the basic operations (SUM, functions, etc.).

              Stephen Greenwell
            • John Hollinger
              Some kind of relevant measurement of their defensive ability. Some of these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few others -- were picked almost solely for their
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 24, 2004
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                Some kind of relevant measurement of their defensive ability. Some of
                these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few others -- were picked
                almost solely for their defense, and we really have no way of telling
                whether that's valid. Of course, we barely have anything at the NBA
                level either, so I suppose it's par for the course.

                --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I've asked this question of a few people in the NBA and not gotten
                the
                > kind of answer I'd like. Maybe it's the way I ask it. I dunno.
                >
                > If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential
                draftees,
                > what would it be? Anything you can think of, measurements, more
                > practice games against other draftees, intelligence tests,
                references
                > from their fingerpainting teachers, the genetic makeup of their
                > parents -- use your imagination!
                >
                > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite classes in school and I
                > just gotta think that is not what would help.
                >
                > In particular, if you can think about guys you were wrong on, either
                > that they were better than you thought or worse than you thought --
                > what else would you have liked to know?
                >
                > DeanO
                >
                > Dean Oliver
                > Author, Basketball on Paper
                > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary strike for statistical
                > analysis of the game of basketball..." Hoopsworld.com's Kevin
                Pelton
              • Kevin Pelton
                ... I ll have what he s having. Is Ivey a good defender? I guess he must be, given how pitiful his stats are. And I ve just precisely made John s point; I can
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 25, 2004
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                  > Some kind of relevant measurement of their defensive ability. Some
                  > of these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few others -- were picked
                  > almost solely for their defense, and we really have no way of
                  > telling whether that's valid. Of course, we barely have anything
                  > at the NBA level either, so I suppose it's par for the course.

                  I'll have what he's having. Is Ivey a good defender? I guess he must
                  be, given how pitiful his stats are. And I've just precisely made
                  John's point; I can tell you something about the defensive ability
                  of guys in the Pac-10, since I've watched them play multiple times,
                  a few in person. Guys from the Big 12 and the SEC? No freaking clue.

                  If we're counting relatively imaginary stuff, I'd like some way to
                  measure a player's work ethic, his desire to improve. Maybe it's a
                  desire to shift blame elsewhere about my mistakes, but I think a lot
                  of them tend to be because a player has either improved on his
                  weaknesses unexpectedly or failed to improve. I recall someone
                  making this point about the reason you take a quality guy like Nick
                  Collison. If he does hurt his shoulder and has to miss a season, you
                  know he's going to be busting his behind in the team's training
                  facility the next summer, dying to get back on the court. I'd love
                  to put a number to that.
                • Dean Oliver
                  ... Since you ve made the comparison before, what information do you feel is necessary to distinguish between Andre Hutson and Richard Jefferson?
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 25, 2004
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                    --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
                    <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                    > Some kind of relevant measurement of their defensive ability. Some of
                    > these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few others -- were picked
                    > almost solely for their defense, and we really have no way of telling
                    > whether that's valid. Of course, we barely have anything at the NBA
                    > level either, so I suppose it's par for the course.
                    >

                    Since you've made the comparison before, what information do you feel
                    is necessary to distinguish between Andre Hutson and Richard Jefferson?




                    > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I've asked this question of a few people in the NBA and not gotten
                    > the
                    > > kind of answer I'd like. Maybe it's the way I ask it. I dunno.
                    > >
                    > > If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential
                    > draftees,
                    > > what would it be? Anything you can think of, measurements, more
                    > > practice games against other draftees, intelligence tests,
                    > references
                    > > from their fingerpainting teachers, the genetic makeup of their
                    > > parents -- use your imagination!
                    > >
                    > > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite classes in school and I
                    > > just gotta think that is not what would help.
                    > >
                    > > In particular, if you can think about guys you were wrong on, either
                    > > that they were better than you thought or worse than you thought --
                    > > what else would you have liked to know?
                    > >
                    > > DeanO
                    > >
                    > > Dean Oliver
                    > > Author, Basketball on Paper
                    > > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                    > > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary strike for statistical
                    > > analysis of the game of basketball..." Hoopsworld.com's Kevin
                    > Pelton
                  • McKibbin, Stuart
                    If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential draftees, what would it be? Anything you can think of, measurements, more practice games against
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 25, 2004
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                      "If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential draftees,
                      what would it be? Anything you can think of, measurements, more
                      practice games against other draftees, intelligence tests, references
                      from their fingerpainting teachers, the genetic makeup of their
                      parents -- use your imagination!"

                      1. Speed. Speed. Speed. And speed with the ball. They dribble through some
                      maze and its timed.
                      2. Ambidexterity. The same test as above but dribbling with offhand. Offhand
                      hook shots
                      3. When he jumps is it off two feet, one foot? Is he a quick jumper?
                      4. A test and interview. Do they know the rules of the rules of the game?
                      Can they explain their coach's system? In the recruiting I've done I've
                      noted that the cats that can explain in detail what they did and why they
                      did it show that they've paid attention.
                      5. Drug test.
                      6. Status of parents or the adequacy of their support system. You're sorting
                      out who has problems with authority.

                      Best Wishes,
                      Stuart
                    • tajallie@hotmail.com
                      1) I want clutch stats . .whatever ones make sense - end of game, NCAA final game, high school championship, free throw for sprints, half court shots for
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 25, 2004
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                        1) I want clutch stats . .whatever ones make sense - end of game,
                        NCAA final game, high school championship, free throw for sprints,
                        half court shots for $100s. Whatever. Just some measure of how the
                        player performed when the stakes are the higher. Does he want the
                        responsibity and can he handle it. Shooting, decision making,
                        defense. Anything that proves he is ready to step up when everyone
                        esle is playing their hardest.

                        2) Instintive decision making ability (I had a coach who said "if you
                        have to think about it, your too late"). I want to measure who will
                        make good decision on the court with the ball, who to box out, when
                        to help out, when to shoot the three and when to drive, who to get
                        the rock to.

                        3) How about: how quick they shoot (i.e. from a pass to release or
                        off the dribble). The hardest transition in the NBA is probable
                        making your shot and although we already test for athleticism . .this
                        is one I have never seem tested for but it certainly matters. Along
                        the same lines - what hieght do they shoot from. Jumping high and
                        jumping high and shooting are to different things.

                        4)Performance under pounding - toughness. The NBA is alot rougher and
                        shooting, dribbling, fighting over picks, taking a charge. I don't
                        want anyone who is thrown off by phsyical contact or isn't willing to
                        fix it.

                        5) I would also like something to test the work ethic and willingness
                        to improve.

                        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
                        wrote:
                        > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
                        > <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                        > > Some kind of relevant measurement of their defensive ability.
                        Some of
                        > > these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few others -- were picked
                        > > almost solely for their defense, and we really have no way of
                        telling
                        > > whether that's valid. Of course, we barely have anything at the
                        NBA
                        > > level either, so I suppose it's par for the course.
                        > >
                        >
                        > Since you've made the comparison before, what information do you
                        feel
                        > is necessary to distinguish between Andre Hutson and Richard
                        Jefferson?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I've asked this question of a few people in the NBA and not
                        gotten
                        > > the
                        > > > kind of answer I'd like. Maybe it's the way I ask it. I dunno.
                        > > >
                        > > > If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential
                        > > draftees,
                        > > > what would it be? Anything you can think of, measurements, more
                        > > > practice games against other draftees, intelligence tests,
                        > > references
                        > > > from their fingerpainting teachers, the genetic makeup of their
                        > > > parents -- use your imagination!
                        > > >
                        > > > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite classes in school
                        and I
                        > > > just gotta think that is not what would help.
                        > > >
                        > > > In particular, if you can think about guys you were wrong on,
                        either
                        > > > that they were better than you thought or worse than you
                        thought --
                        > > > what else would you have liked to know?
                        > > >
                        > > > DeanO
                        > > >
                        > > > Dean Oliver
                        > > > Author, Basketball on Paper
                        > > > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                        > > > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary strike for statistical
                        > > > analysis of the game of basketball..." Hoopsworld.com's Kevin
                        > > Pelton
                      • nik
                        Most of you wonder who on earth is Spanoulis, I just wonder what on earth is he doing on #50? Not like this means he owns a spot on Dallas roster but just
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 25, 2004
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                          Most of you wonder who on earth is Spanoulis,
                          I just wonder what on earth is he doing on #50?
                          Not like this means he owns a spot on Dallas' roster
                          but just reading the news was a shock anyway.

                          He's a 1.92 (6'3'') PG, 22 years old.
                          Despite his age, he is his team's captain.
                          A member of the Greek national team that won
                          the golden medal in the 2002 European Championship
                          in Lithuania.

                          He played in all 26 games of the Greek regular
                          season for Maroussi, a former average team that
                          has been impressively improving over the last 2-3
                          years and made it to the Finals this year (where
                          they were swept in 3 games by the more experienced
                          and full of stars team of Panathinaikos).

                          His regular season stats:

                          28 minutes, 11 points, 2.1 rebounds, 3.3 assists
                          (remember, these are "european assists" :),
                          2.9 turnovers, 1.1 steals, 3.2 fouls committed
                          and 4 won.
                          He was shooting 82% from the line, 53% for 2points
                          and 34% in 3-pointers.

                          Played well in the playoffs where he was the team's
                          second best player, behind Rodherick Blackney
                          (Blackney's presence in the team is the reason he
                          plays the "2" in most games).
                          In Game 2 of the Finals he had 18 points and 5
                          rebounds in 30 min.



                          --- tajallie@... wrote:
                          > 1) I want clutch stats . .whatever ones make sense -
                          > end of game,
                          > NCAA final game, high school championship, free
                          > throw for sprints,
                          > half court shots for $100s. Whatever. Just some
                          > measure of how the
                          > player performed when the stakes are the higher.
                          > Does he want the
                          > responsibity and can he handle it. Shooting,
                          > decision making,
                          > defense. Anything that proves he is ready to step up
                          > when everyone
                          > esle is playing their hardest.
                          >
                          > 2) Instintive decision making ability (I had a coach
                          > who said "if you
                          > have to think about it, your too late"). I want to
                          > measure who will
                          > make good decision on the court with the ball, who
                          > to box out, when
                          > to help out, when to shoot the three and when to
                          > drive, who to get
                          > the rock to.
                          >
                          > 3) How about: how quick they shoot (i.e. from a pass
                          > to release or
                          > off the dribble). The hardest transition in the NBA
                          > is probable
                          > making your shot and although we already test for
                          > athleticism . .this
                          > is one I have never seem tested for but it certainly
                          > matters. Along
                          > the same lines - what hieght do they shoot from.
                          > Jumping high and
                          > jumping high and shooting are to different things.
                          >
                          > 4)Performance under pounding - toughness. The NBA is
                          > alot rougher and
                          > shooting, dribbling, fighting over picks, taking a
                          > charge. I don't
                          > want anyone who is thrown off by phsyical contact or
                          > isn't willing to
                          > fix it.
                          >
                          > 5) I would also like something to test the work
                          > ethic and willingness
                          > to improve.
                          >
                          > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver"
                          > <deano@r...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John
                          > Hollinger"
                          > > <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                          > > > Some kind of relevant measurement of their
                          > defensive ability.
                          > Some of
                          > > > these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few others
                          > -- were picked
                          > > > almost solely for their defense, and we really
                          > have no way of
                          > telling
                          > > > whether that's valid. Of course, we barely have
                          > anything at the
                          > NBA
                          > > > level either, so I suppose it's par for the
                          > course.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > Since you've made the comparison before, what
                          > information do you
                          > feel
                          > > is necessary to distinguish between Andre Hutson
                          > and Richard
                          > Jefferson?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean
                          > Oliver" <deano@r...>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I've asked this question of a few people in
                          > the NBA and not
                          > gotten
                          > > > the
                          > > > > kind of answer I'd like. Maybe it's the way I
                          > ask it. I dunno.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > If you could ask for more information to
                          > evaluate potential
                          > > > draftees,
                          > > > > what would it be? Anything you can think of,
                          > measurements, more
                          > > > > practice games against other draftees,
                          > intelligence tests,
                          > > > references
                          > > > > from their fingerpainting teachers, the
                          > genetic makeup of their
                          > > > > parents -- use your imagination!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite
                          > classes in school
                          > and I
                          > > > > just gotta think that is not what would help.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > In particular, if you can think about guys you
                          > were wrong on,
                          > either
                          > > > > that they were better than you thought or
                          > worse than you
                          > thought --
                          > > > > what else would you have liked to know?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > DeanO
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dean Oliver
                          > > > > Author, Basketball on Paper
                          > > > > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                          > > > > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary strike
                          > for statistical
                          > > > > analysis of the game of basketball..."
                          > Hoopsworld.com's Kevin
                          > > > Pelton
                          >
                          >





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                        • Gabe Farkas
                          what does it mean to have european assists versus regular assists? are they usually more or less? ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 25, 2004
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                            what does it mean to have "european assists" versus
                            regular assists?

                            are they usually more or less?


                            --- nik <nikoz6@...> wrote:
                            > Most of you wonder who on earth is Spanoulis,
                            > I just wonder what on earth is he doing on #50?
                            > Not like this means he owns a spot on Dallas' roster
                            > but just reading the news was a shock anyway.
                            >
                            > He's a 1.92 (6'3'') PG, 22 years old.
                            > Despite his age, he is his team's captain.
                            > A member of the Greek national team that won
                            > the golden medal in the 2002 European Championship
                            > in Lithuania.
                            >
                            > He played in all 26 games of the Greek regular
                            > season for Maroussi, a former average team that
                            > has been impressively improving over the last 2-3
                            > years and made it to the Finals this year (where
                            > they were swept in 3 games by the more experienced
                            > and full of stars team of Panathinaikos).
                            >
                            > His regular season stats:
                            >
                            > 28 minutes, 11 points, 2.1 rebounds, 3.3 assists
                            > (remember, these are "european assists" :),
                            > 2.9 turnovers, 1.1 steals, 3.2 fouls committed
                            > and 4 won.
                            > He was shooting 82% from the line, 53% for 2points
                            > and 34% in 3-pointers.
                            >
                            > Played well in the playoffs where he was the team's
                            > second best player, behind Rodherick Blackney
                            > (Blackney's presence in the team is the reason he
                            > plays the "2" in most games).
                            > In Game 2 of the Finals he had 18 points and 5
                            > rebounds in 30 min.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- tajallie@... wrote:
                            > > 1) I want clutch stats . .whatever ones make sense
                            > -
                            > > end of game,
                            > > NCAA final game, high school championship, free
                            > > throw for sprints,
                            > > half court shots for $100s. Whatever. Just some
                            > > measure of how the
                            > > player performed when the stakes are the higher.
                            > > Does he want the
                            > > responsibity and can he handle it. Shooting,
                            > > decision making,
                            > > defense. Anything that proves he is ready to step
                            > up
                            > > when everyone
                            > > esle is playing their hardest.
                            > >
                            > > 2) Instintive decision making ability (I had a
                            > coach
                            > > who said "if you
                            > > have to think about it, your too late"). I want to
                            > > measure who will
                            > > make good decision on the court with the ball, who
                            > > to box out, when
                            > > to help out, when to shoot the three and when to
                            > > drive, who to get
                            > > the rock to.
                            > >
                            > > 3) How about: how quick they shoot (i.e. from a
                            > pass
                            > > to release or
                            > > off the dribble). The hardest transition in the
                            > NBA
                            > > is probable
                            > > making your shot and although we already test for
                            > > athleticism . .this
                            > > is one I have never seem tested for but it
                            > certainly
                            > > matters. Along
                            > > the same lines - what hieght do they shoot from.
                            > > Jumping high and
                            > > jumping high and shooting are to different things.
                            > >
                            > > 4)Performance under pounding - toughness. The NBA
                            > is
                            > > alot rougher and
                            > > shooting, dribbling, fighting over picks, taking a
                            > > charge. I don't
                            > > want anyone who is thrown off by phsyical contact
                            > or
                            > > isn't willing to
                            > > fix it.
                            > >
                            > > 5) I would also like something to test the work
                            > > ethic and willingness
                            > > to improve.
                            > >
                            > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean
                            > Oliver"
                            > > <deano@r...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John
                            > > Hollinger"
                            > > > <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                            > > > > Some kind of relevant measurement of their
                            > > defensive ability.
                            > > Some of
                            > > > > these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few
                            > others
                            > > -- were picked
                            > > > > almost solely for their defense, and we really
                            > > have no way of
                            > > telling
                            > > > > whether that's valid. Of course, we barely
                            > have
                            > > anything at the
                            > > NBA
                            > > > > level either, so I suppose it's par for the
                            > > course.
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Since you've made the comparison before, what
                            > > information do you
                            > > feel
                            > > > is necessary to distinguish between Andre Hutson
                            > > and Richard
                            > > Jefferson?
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean
                            > > Oliver" <deano@r...>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I've asked this question of a few people in
                            > > the NBA and not
                            > > gotten
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > kind of answer I'd like. Maybe it's the way
                            > I
                            > > ask it. I dunno.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > If you could ask for more information to
                            > > evaluate potential
                            > > > > draftees,
                            > > > > > what would it be? Anything you can think
                            > of,
                            > > measurements, more
                            > > > > > practice games against other draftees,
                            > > intelligence tests,
                            > > > > references
                            > > > > > from their fingerpainting teachers, the
                            > > genetic makeup of their
                            > > > > > parents -- use your imagination!
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite
                            > > classes in school
                            > > and I
                            > > > > > just gotta think that is not what would
                            > help.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > In particular, if you can think about guys
                            > you
                            > > were wrong on,
                            > > either
                            > > > > > that they were better than you thought or
                            > > worse than you
                            > > thought --
                            > > > > > what else would you have liked to know?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > DeanO
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Dean Oliver
                            > > > > > Author, Basketball on Paper
                            > > > > > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                            > > > > > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary
                            > strike
                            > > for statistical
                            > > > > > analysis of the game of basketball..."
                            > > Hoopsworld.com's Kevin
                            > > > > Pelton
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________
                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
                            > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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                          • dktomar
                            We know already which players are physicially able to play in the NBA. In addition to the the physicial and scouting reports, I d love to know: 1. Chutzpah -
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 25, 2004
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                              We know already which players are physicially able to play in the NBA.
                              In addition to the the physicial and scouting reports, I'd love to know:

                              1. Chutzpah - Maybe the most difficult information to obtain, but the
                              most important -- call it character, desire, competitiveness, work
                              ethic. I want to know if a player wants to be the best. The Michael
                              Jordan, Kobe Bryant guy. The gymrat who's sole purpose is to be the
                              very best AND to help his team win. When the going gets tough, the
                              tough work harder. Even more difficult are the players that stay out
                              of trouble (I wonder if Dwight Howard's chances of success increase
                              due to his beliefs?). Of course, he needs talent and . . .

                              2. A High Basketball IQ - I want to know how well, quickly, etc. he
                              makes the correct reads, how quickly he adapts to changes on the fly,
                              recognizes when to rotate to help, when to rotate back to keep a
                              balanced floor, where his teammates like the ball (and where they
                              convert at the highest percentages). Brent Barry, John Stockton,
                              Bird. You can get this watching games to some degree, but when done
                              well it can be deceiving and thus hard to catch (i.e., a simple
                              looking pass to Steve Kerr for a open 3 rather than a easier pass to
                              an open (insert a poor shooter's name here, I don't want to disparage
                              unnecessarily) at the foul line. Of course, it goes beyond offense as
                              well. It's not always what happens, but what the player has prevented
                              from happening. It's measured to some degree now, but the measurement
                              could improve.

                              3. In-depth psych profiles - I think they are done for some players,
                              but I am not sure they are done for all players. They need to be done
                              by . . .

                              4. A neutral, third-party Draft advisor group - An organization
                              should be started who's sole purpose is to provide objective
                              information to draftees and teams. The next CBA should include
                              funding from both sides for the organization (I know it ain't that
                              simple, but I can dream).

                              For what it's worth, Okafor seems to have all the attributes to be
                              extremely successful in the NBA. His flaws can all be oversome
                              through intelligent hard work, and he seems willing to put that hard
                              work in.


                              --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...> wrote:
                              > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
                              > <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                              > > Some kind of relevant measurement of their defensive ability. Some of
                              > > these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few others -- were picked
                              > > almost solely for their defense, and we really have no way of telling
                              > > whether that's valid. Of course, we barely have anything at the NBA
                              > > level either, so I suppose it's par for the course.
                              > >
                              >
                              > Since you've made the comparison before, what information do you feel
                              > is necessary to distinguish between Andre Hutson and Richard Jefferson?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I've asked this question of a few people in the NBA and not gotten
                              > > the
                              > > > kind of answer I'd like. Maybe it's the way I ask it. I dunno.
                              > > >
                              > > > If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential
                              > > draftees,
                              > > > what would it be? Anything you can think of, measurements, more
                              > > > practice games against other draftees, intelligence tests,
                              > > references
                              > > > from their fingerpainting teachers, the genetic makeup of their
                              > > > parents -- use your imagination!
                              > > >
                              > > > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite classes in school and I
                              > > > just gotta think that is not what would help.
                              > > >
                              > > > In particular, if you can think about guys you were wrong on, either
                              > > > that they were better than you thought or worse than you thought --
                              > > > what else would you have liked to know?
                              > > >
                              > > > DeanO
                              > > >
                              > > > Dean Oliver
                              > > > Author, Basketball on Paper
                              > > > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                              > > > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary strike for statistical
                              > > > analysis of the game of basketball..." Hoopsworld.com's Kevin
                              > > Pelton
                            • nik
                              They re usually a lot less. With an average of 5 assists or so, you re the passing king. I think it s both about pace and style of the game and they way
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 26, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                They're usually a lot less.
                                With an average of 5 assists or so, you're the
                                passing king.

                                I think it's both about pace and style of the game
                                and they way they're counted.


                                --- Gabe Farkas <gabefark@...> wrote:
                                > what does it mean to have "european assists" versus
                                > regular assists?
                                >
                                > are they usually more or less?
                                >
                                >
                                > --- nik <nikoz6@...> wrote:
                                > > Most of you wonder who on earth is Spanoulis,
                                > > I just wonder what on earth is he doing on #50?
                                > > Not like this means he owns a spot on Dallas'
                                > roster
                                > > but just reading the news was a shock anyway.
                                > >
                                > > He's a 1.92 (6'3'') PG, 22 years old.
                                > > Despite his age, he is his team's captain.
                                > > A member of the Greek national team that won
                                > > the golden medal in the 2002 European Championship
                                > > in Lithuania.
                                > >
                                > > He played in all 26 games of the Greek regular
                                > > season for Maroussi, a former average team that
                                > > has been impressively improving over the last 2-3
                                > > years and made it to the Finals this year (where
                                > > they were swept in 3 games by the more experienced
                                >
                                > > and full of stars team of Panathinaikos).
                                > >
                                > > His regular season stats:
                                > >
                                > > 28 minutes, 11 points, 2.1 rebounds, 3.3 assists
                                > > (remember, these are "european assists" :),
                                > > 2.9 turnovers, 1.1 steals, 3.2 fouls committed
                                > > and 4 won.
                                > > He was shooting 82% from the line, 53% for 2points
                                > > and 34% in 3-pointers.
                                > >
                                > > Played well in the playoffs where he was the
                                > team's
                                > > second best player, behind Rodherick Blackney
                                > > (Blackney's presence in the team is the reason he
                                > > plays the "2" in most games).
                                > > In Game 2 of the Finals he had 18 points and 5
                                > > rebounds in 30 min.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- tajallie@... wrote:
                                > > > 1) I want clutch stats . .whatever ones make
                                > sense
                                > > -
                                > > > end of game,
                                > > > NCAA final game, high school championship, free
                                > > > throw for sprints,
                                > > > half court shots for $100s. Whatever. Just some
                                > > > measure of how the
                                > > > player performed when the stakes are the higher.
                                > > > Does he want the
                                > > > responsibity and can he handle it. Shooting,
                                > > > decision making,
                                > > > defense. Anything that proves he is ready to
                                > step
                                > > up
                                > > > when everyone
                                > > > esle is playing their hardest.
                                > > >
                                > > > 2) Instintive decision making ability (I had a
                                > > coach
                                > > > who said "if you
                                > > > have to think about it, your too late"). I want
                                > to
                                > > > measure who will
                                > > > make good decision on the court with the ball,
                                > who
                                > > > to box out, when
                                > > > to help out, when to shoot the three and when to
                                > > > drive, who to get
                                > > > the rock to.
                                > > >
                                > > > 3) How about: how quick they shoot (i.e. from a
                                > > pass
                                > > > to release or
                                > > > off the dribble). The hardest transition in the
                                > > NBA
                                > > > is probable
                                > > > making your shot and although we already test
                                > for
                                > > > athleticism . .this
                                > > > is one I have never seem tested for but it
                                > > certainly
                                > > > matters. Along
                                > > > the same lines - what hieght do they shoot from.
                                > > > Jumping high and
                                > > > jumping high and shooting are to different
                                > things.
                                > > >
                                > > > 4)Performance under pounding - toughness. The
                                > NBA
                                > > is
                                > > > alot rougher and
                                > > > shooting, dribbling, fighting over picks, taking
                                > a
                                > > > charge. I don't
                                > > > want anyone who is thrown off by phsyical
                                > contact
                                > > or
                                > > > isn't willing to
                                > > > fix it.
                                > > >
                                > > > 5) I would also like something to test the work
                                > > > ethic and willingness
                                > > > to improve.
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean
                                > > Oliver"
                                > > > <deano@r...>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John
                                > > > Hollinger"
                                > > > > <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                                > > > > > Some kind of relevant measurement of their
                                > > > defensive ability.
                                > > > Some of
                                > > > > > these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few
                                > > others
                                > > > -- were picked
                                > > > > > almost solely for their defense, and we
                                > really
                                > > > have no way of
                                > > > telling
                                > > > > > whether that's valid. Of course, we barely
                                > > have
                                > > > anything at the
                                > > > NBA
                                > > > > > level either, so I suppose it's par for the
                                > > > course.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Since you've made the comparison before, what
                                > > > information do you
                                > > > feel
                                > > > > is necessary to distinguish between Andre
                                > Hutson
                                > > > and Richard
                                > > > Jefferson?
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean
                                > > > Oliver" <deano@r...>
                                > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I've asked this question of a few people
                                > in
                                > > > the NBA and not
                                > > > gotten
                                > > > > > the
                                > > > > > > kind of answer I'd like. Maybe it's the
                                > way
                                > > I
                                > > > ask it. I dunno.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > If you could ask for more information to
                                > > > evaluate potential
                                > > > > > draftees,
                                > > > > > > what would it be? Anything you can think
                                > > of,
                                > > > measurements, more
                                > > > > > > practice games against other draftees,
                                > > > intelligence tests,
                                > > > > > references
                                > > > > > > from their fingerpainting teachers, the
                                > > > genetic makeup of their
                                > > > > > > parents -- use your imagination!
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite
                                > > > classes in school
                                > > > and I
                                > > > > > > just gotta think that is not what would
                                > > help.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > In particular, if you can think about guys
                                > > you
                                > > > were wrong on,
                                > > > either
                                > > > > > > that they were better than you thought or
                                > > > worse than you
                                > > > thought --
                                > > > > > > what else would you have liked to know?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > DeanO
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Dean Oliver
                                > > > > > > Author, Basketball on Paper
                                > > > > > > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                                > > > > > > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary
                                > > strike
                                > > > for statistical
                                > > > > > > analysis of the game of basketball..."
                                > > > Hoopsworld.com's Kevin
                                > > > > > Pelton
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > __________________________________
                                > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
                                > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > __________________________________
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                              • Ludovic LE MOAL
                                Hi, ... By far less ! It s only when the scorer score in the paint without dribling and nobody in front of him. I m not sure of this definition bit s something
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 26, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi,

                                  On Friday, June 25, 2004 at 6:22:08 PM, Gabe Farkas wrote:

                                  > what does it mean to have "european assists" versus
                                  > regular assists?

                                  > are they usually more or less?

                                  By far less ! It's only when the scorer score in the paint without
                                  dribling and nobody in front of him. I'm not sure of this definition
                                  bit's something like that. it's about the same as in Spain where
                                  there's only one guy in the season who made more than 10 assists !
                                  --
                                  Ludovic LE MOAL
                                  <http://www.lemoal.org/>
                                • Coach McCormick
                                  I just joined the discussion...in terms of what I would want to know about potential draftees: First, it is possible to measure shot quickness with reasonable
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 26, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I just joined the discussion...in terms of what I would want to know about potential draftees:
                                    First, it is possible to measure shot quickness with reasonable reliability. A colleague has a good system for static shots (ball picked from a chair in a standrard chair to chair drill) and we are working on a method of developing a product to measure shot quickness off the catch.
                                    However, just by eyeballing whether the player must dip the ball or not is the key.
                                     
                                    That being said, I think shot quickness is overrated as a skill in the NBA. Watch how many outside shots are actually hurried. Many come off double teams where shooters catch and are already squared to the basket. They have lazy habits but hav time to dip the ball.
                                     
                                    Only teams that shoot a lot of shots off screens need uick release shooters, teams like the Pistons (Hamilton) and Kings use a lot of jump shots off screens. Other teams rely primarily on spot-up shooters for their outside shooting and someone else, a post player or a dribble penetration wing/guard sets up the shot. Players like Bruce Bowen are an example of this.
                                     
                                    The hardest attribute to measure and teach is decision-making. Assist to tunover ratio does not tell the story because both stats have too many variables. One, assists are handed out to easily and thus are not distinguished: did the player actually create the open shot or did he merely pass the ball to an unguarded player? In the stat sheet, it's the same, but in reality, the first is a far more valuable skill. Also, assists depend upon players actually making shots: the Kings have guys who get a lot of assists because they make a lot of shots. I would argue they have players who make a lot of shots because of the quality of the passes, but, again, that is something that is unproven.
                                     
                                    A charge call is a different turnover than atraveling violation which is different than a bad pass on a 2 v 1 fast break. I could make a great pass to a guy who should be making a backdoor cut, but he could stop his cut and I get a turnover. That's diffrent than if I throw the ball right to the defender on a 2 v 1 break.
                                     
                                    I want to know the players mental make-up, his work ethic, what instant millioaire status will do to his desire and drive. I'd take a loss talanted player who refuses to allow his team to lose over another plyer who exhibits less passion, which is why I'd take Kobe over TMac and why jameer nelson will be the biggest value pick in the draft because he has what people cannot measure. with the high school kids especially, it is hard to know whether they have IT or not.
                                     
                                    when i was a college recruiter, i always wanted to recruit kids from winning high school programs. i just believe in it.
                                     
                                    B
                                    High Five Hoop School


                                    nik <nikoz6@...> wrote:
                                    They're usually a lot less.
                                    With an average of 5 assists or so, you're the
                                    passing king.

                                    I think it's both about pace and style of the game
                                    and they way they're counted.


                                    --- Gabe Farkas <gabefark@...> wrote:
                                    > what does it mean to have "european assists" versus
                                    > regular assists?
                                    >
                                    > are they usually more or less?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- nik <nikoz6@...> wrote:
                                    > > Most of you wonder who on earth is Spanoulis,
                                    > > I just wonder what on earth is he doing on #50?
                                    > > Not like this means he owns a spot on Dallas'
                                    > roster
                                    > > but just reading the news was a shock anyway.
                                    > >
                                    > > He's a 1.92 (6'3'') PG, 22 years old.
                                    > > Despite his age, he is his team's captain.
                                    > > A member of the Greek national team that won
                                    > > the golden medal in the 2002 European Championship
                                    > > in Lithuania.
                                    > >
                                    > > He played in all 26 games of the Greek regular
                                    > > season for Maroussi, a former average team that
                                    > > has been impressively improving over the last 2-3
                                    > > years and made it to the Finals this year (where
                                    > > they were swept in 3 games by the more experienced
                                    >
                                    > > and full of stars team of Panathinaikos).
                                    > >
                                    > > His regular season stats:
                                    > >
                                    > > 28 minutes, 11 points, 2.1 rebounds, 3.3 assists
                                    > > (remember, these are "european assists" :),
                                    > > 2.9 turnovers, 1.1 steals, 3.2 fouls committed
                                    > > and 4 won.
                                    > > He was shooting 82% from the line, 53% for 2points
                                    > > and 34% in 3-pointers.
                                    > >
                                    > > Played well in the playoffs where he was the
                                    > team's
                                    > > second best player, behind Rodherick Blackney
                                    > > (Blackney's presence in the team is the reason he
                                    > > plays the "2" in most games).
                                    > > In Game 2 of the Finals he had 18 points and 5
                                    > > rebounds in 30 min.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- tajallie@... wrote:
                                    > > > 1) I want clutch stats . .whatever ones make
                                    > sense
                                    > > -
                                    > > > end of game,
                                    > > > NCAA final game, high school championship, free
                                    > > > throw for sprints,
                                    > > > half court shots for $100s. Whatever. Just some
                                    > > > measure of how the
                                    > > > player performed when the stakes are the higher.
                                    > > > Does he want the
                                    > > > responsibity and can he handle it. Shooting,
                                    > > > decision making,
                                    > > > defense. Anything that proves he is ready to
                                    > step
                                    > > up
                                    > > > when everyone
                                    > > > esle is playing their hardest.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 2) Instintive decision making ability (I had a
                                    > > coach
                                    > > > who said "if you
                                    > > > have to think about it, your too late"). I want
                                    > to
                                    > > > measure who will
                                    > > > make good decision on the court with the ball,
                                    > who
                                    > > > to box out, when
                                    > > > to help out, when to shoot the three and when to
                                    > > > drive, who to get
                                    > > > the rock to.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 3) How about: how quick they shoot (i.e. from a
                                    > > pass
                                    > > > to release or
                                    > > > off the dribble). The hardest transition in the
                                    > > NBA
                                    > > > is probable
                                    > > > making your shot and although we already test
                                    > for
                                    > > > athleticism . .this
                                    > > > is one I have never seem tested for but it
                                    > > certainly
                                    > > > matters. Along
                                    > > > the same lines - what hieght do they shoot from.
                                    > > > Jumping high and
                                    > > > jumping high and shooting are to different
                                    > things.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 4)Performance under pounding - toughness. The
                                    > NBA
                                    > > is
                                    > > > alot rougher and
                                    > > > shooting, dribbling, fighting over picks, taking
                                    > a
                                    > > > charge. I don't
                                    > > > want anyone who is thrown off by phsyical
                                    > contact
                                    > > or
                                    > > > isn't willing to
                                    > > > fix it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 5) I would also like something to test the work
                                    > > > ethic and willingness
                                    > > > to improve.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean
                                    > > Oliver"
                                    > > > <deano@r...>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John
                                    > > > Hollinger"
                                    > > > > <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > Some kind of relevant measurement of their
                                    > > > defensive ability.
                                    > > > Some of
                                    > > > > > these guys -- Iguodala, Royal Ivey, a few
                                    > > others
                                    > > > -- were picked
                                    > > > > > almost solely for their defense, and we
                                    > really
                                    > > > have no way of
                                    > > > telling
                                    > > > > > whether that's valid. Of course, we barely
                                    > > have
                                    > > > anything at the
                                    > > > NBA
                                    > > > > > level either, so I suppose it's par for the
                                    > > > course.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Since you've made the comparison before, what
                                    > > > information do you
                                    > > > feel
                                    > > > > is necessary to distinguish between Andre
                                    > Hutson
                                    > > > and Richard
                                    > > > Jefferson?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean
                                    > > > Oliver" <deano@r...>
                                    > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I've asked this question of a few people
                                    > in
                                    > > > the NBA and not
                                    > > > gotten
                                    > > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > kind of answer I'd like.  Maybe it's the
                                    > way
                                    > > I
                                    > > > ask it.  I dunno.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > If you could ask for more information to
                                    > > > evaluate potential
                                    > > > > > draftees,
                                    > > > > > > what would it be?  Anything you can think
                                    > > of,
                                    > > > measurements, more
                                    > > > > > > practice games against other draftees,
                                    > > > intelligence tests,
                                    > > > > > references
                                    > > > > > > from their fingerpainting teachers, the
                                    > > > genetic makeup of their
                                    > > > > > > parents -- use your imagination!
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite
                                    > > > classes in school
                                    > > > and I
                                    > > > > > > just gotta think that is not what would
                                    > > help.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > In particular, if you can think about guys
                                    > > you
                                    > > > were wrong on,
                                    > > > either
                                    > > > > > > that they were better than you thought or
                                    > > > worse than you
                                    > > > thought --
                                    > > > > > > what else would you have liked to know? 
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > DeanO
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Dean Oliver
                                    > > > > > > Author, Basketball on Paper
                                    > > > > > > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                                    > > > > > > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary
                                    > > strike
                                    > > > for statistical
                                    > > > > > > analysis of the game of basketball..."
                                    > > > Hoopsworld.com's Kevin
                                    > > > > > Pelton
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >      
                                    > >            
                                    > > __________________________________
                                    > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                    > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >            
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                                  • Jose
                                    With FIBA rules it is much more difficult to obtain an assist. In NBA for example, a player can receive a ball in the low post, pivot, bounce the ball and make
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 27, 2004
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                                      With FIBA rules it is much more difficult to obtain an assist.
                                      In NBA for example, a player can receive a ball in the low post,
                                      pivot, bounce the ball and make a lay-up, and the player who gave
                                      him the ball will receive an assist.
                                      In Europe it is quite different. If you put the ball on the floor
                                      the assist is annulled, so they only count the baskets made
                                      immediately after receiving the ball, either inside or outside
                                      shots.
                                      In order to compare the assists a simple formula can be used:
                                      In NBA on 60% of the baskets are preceded from an assist, whereas in
                                      Europe the number is around 40%. In addition if we compared assists
                                      by game, we would have to fit the minutes (48 in NBA and 40 in
                                      Europe).

                                      With this formula, the 3.3 assists of Spanoulis ' would be' 6 with
                                      NBA rules.

                                      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Ludovic LE MOAL
                                      <ludovic.lemoal@f...> wrote:
                                      > Hi,
                                      >
                                      > On Friday, June 25, 2004 at 6:22:08 PM, Gabe Farkas wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > what does it mean to have "european assists" versus
                                      > > regular assists?
                                      >
                                      > > are they usually more or less?
                                      >
                                      > By far less ! It's only when the scorer score in the paint without
                                      > dribling and nobody in front of him. I'm not sure of this
                                      definition
                                      > bit's something like that. it's about the same as in Spain where
                                      > there's only one guy in the season who made more than 10 assists !
                                      > --
                                      > Ludovic LE MOAL
                                      > <http://www.lemoal.org/>
                                    • Ludovic LE MOAL
                                      Hi, ... It s not a matter of FIBA rules : in France, we count the assist as the same as in NBA. -- Ludovic LE MOAL
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 27, 2004
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                                        Hi,

                                        On Sunday, June 27, 2004 at 10:47:14 AM, Jose wrote:

                                        > With FIBA rules it is much more difficult to obtain an assist.

                                        It's not a matter of FIBA rules : in France, we count the assist as
                                        the same as in NBA.
                                        --
                                        Ludovic LE MOAL
                                        <http://www.lemoal.org/>
                                      • mrintp2000
                                        Just like for NBA players I d like to have a PER and an adjusted plus/minus. I d also like to know their MBTI personality type. Their is some interesting info
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 27, 2004
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                                          Just like for NBA players I'd like to have a PER and an adjusted
                                          plus/minus.

                                          I'd also like to know their MBTI personality type. Their is some
                                          interesting info regarding personality type and athletic performance
                                          braintypes.com

                                          And I'd also like to check their growth plates to see if they were
                                          still growing (if relevant).

                                          With all that info, drafting would still be a crapshoot:(

                                          Unless I'm picking Lebron I'd trade all my picks for undervalued NBA
                                          players who have proven they can play. No way I want to give a
                                          guaranteed contract to an unproven NBA commodity.

                                          -shawn

                                          In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I've asked this question of a few people in the NBA and not gotten the
                                          > kind of answer I'd like. Maybe it's the way I ask it. I dunno.
                                          >
                                          > If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential draftees,
                                          > what would it be? Anything you can think of, measurements, more
                                          > practice games against other draftees, intelligence tests, references
                                          > from their fingerpainting teachers, the genetic makeup of their
                                          > parents -- use your imagination!
                                          >
                                          > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite classes in school and I
                                          > just gotta think that is not what would help.
                                          >
                                          > In particular, if you can think about guys you were wrong on, either
                                          > that they were better than you thought or worse than you thought --
                                          > what else would you have liked to know?
                                          >
                                          > DeanO
                                          >
                                          > Dean Oliver
                                          > Author, Basketball on Paper
                                          > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                                          > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary strike for statistical
                                          > analysis of the game of basketball..." Hoopsworld.com's Kevin Pelton
                                        • Coach McCormick
                                          Don t they test for MBTI personality already? Football teams give a high priority to personality tests and other such tests. I assumed basketball teams did the
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 27, 2004
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                                            Don't they test for MBTI personality already? Football teams give a high priority to personality tests and other such tests. I assumed basketball teams did the same.
                                             
                                            I don't know if I'd trade all my picks. There are some great nuggets out there. And, I think drafting a young european who can stay in europe and develop for a year or two is a smart move; another reason why the nab should have a REAL minor league system where a second round pick like trevor ariza could play and develop instead of either bring cut or languishing on the bench or IR all year.
                                             
                                            Players like Peja Stojakovic, Darius Songalia, Manu Ginobili and others have benefited from extra development in europe and benefitted their drafting team, while some other players like udonis haslem went overseas to develop and ended up being a productive player, though not for the drafting team.
                                             
                                            in this way, it is beneficial to draft an european player over an american player late in the first round or in the second round because most 2nd round picks will simply be cut, but if it is a euro player, like an anderson vareajo, the team can leave him in europe, let him get better and then sign him to a contract in a year or two or trade his rights to pick up a different player or draft picks.

                                            mrintp2000 <shzys@...> wrote:
                                            Just like for NBA players I'd like to have a PER and an adjusted
                                            plus/minus.

                                            I'd also like to know their MBTI personality type. Their is some
                                            interesting info regarding personality type and athletic performance
                                            braintypes.com

                                            And I'd also like to check their growth plates to see if they were
                                            still growing (if relevant).

                                            With all that info, drafting would still be a crapshoot:(

                                            Unless I'm picking Lebron I'd trade all my picks for undervalued NBA
                                            players who have proven they can play. No way I want to give a
                                            guaranteed contract to an unproven NBA commodity.

                                            -shawn

                                            In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I've asked this question of a few people in the NBA and not gotten the
                                            > kind of answer I'd like.  Maybe it's the way I ask it.  I dunno.
                                            >
                                            > If you could ask for more information to evaluate potential draftees,
                                            > what would it be?  Anything you can think of, measurements, more
                                            > practice games against other draftees, intelligence tests, references
                                            > from their fingerpainting teachers, the genetic makeup of their
                                            > parents -- use your imagination!
                                            >
                                            > Today's coverage showed the kids' favorite classes in school and I
                                            > just gotta think that is not what would help.
                                            >
                                            > In particular, if you can think about guys you were wrong on, either
                                            > that they were better than you thought or worse than you thought --
                                            > what else would you have liked to know? 
                                            >
                                            > DeanO
                                            >
                                            > Dean Oliver
                                            > Author, Basketball on Paper
                                            > http://www.basketballonpaper.com
                                            > "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary strike for statistical
                                            > analysis of the game of basketball..."  Hoopsworld.com's Kevin Pelton



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                                          • Gabe Farkas
                                            that s really interesting. can you tell me how many assists/game the assist champ usually has each year? maybe 5 or 6? ... __________________________________
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 29, 2004
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                                              that's really interesting.

                                              can you tell me how many assists/game the assist champ
                                              usually has each year? maybe 5 or 6?


                                              --- Ludovic LE MOAL <ludovic.lemoal@...> wrote:
                                              > Hi,
                                              >
                                              > On Friday, June 25, 2004 at 6:22:08 PM, Gabe Farkas
                                              > wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > what does it mean to have "european assists"
                                              > versus
                                              > > regular assists?
                                              >
                                              > > are they usually more or less?
                                              >
                                              > By far less ! It's only when the scorer score in the
                                              > paint without
                                              > dribling and nobody in front of him. I'm not sure of
                                              > this definition
                                              > bit's something like that. it's about the same as in
                                              > Spain where
                                              > there's only one guy in the season who made more
                                              > than 10 assists !
                                              > --
                                              > Ludovic LE MOAL
                                              > <http://www.lemoal.org/>
                                              >
                                              >




                                              __________________________________
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                                            • Ludovic LE MOAL
                                              Hi, ... In France, in Spain, in Italy, in Euroleague ? - Italy : Leonardo Busca (Messina) 4,88 assists per game (APG). - Spain : Elmer Bennett (Real Madrid)
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jun 30, 2004
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                                                Hi,

                                                On Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 5:18:51 AM, Gabe Farkas wrote:

                                                > can you tell me how many assists/game the assist champ
                                                > usually has each year? maybe 5 or 6?

                                                In France, in Spain, in Italy, in Euroleague ?
                                                - Italy : Leonardo Busca (Messina) 4,88 assists per game (APG).
                                                - Spain : Elmer Bennett (Real Madrid) 6,06 APG.
                                                - Turkey : Kahlid El-Amin (Besiktas) 6.26 APG.
                                                - Greece : Damir Mulaomerovic (PAOK) 6,84 APG.
                                                - Germany : Michael Jordan (Artland) 6,85 APG.
                                                - France : Laurent Sciarra (Paris Basket Racing) 9,83 APG.
                                                --
                                                Ludovic LE MOAL
                                                <http://www.lemoal.org/>
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