Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [APBR_analysis] Few questions

Expand Messages
  • Ed Weiland
    ... Right now Tinsley, Gasol, Haywood, Kirilenko and Johnson would seem to be the favorites, but the season has a ways to go and I m sure others will emerge.
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 4, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      --- HoopStudies <deano@...> wrote:
      >
      > My time to look at hoops questions lasts another day
      > or so, so I'd
      > like to post a few things that I'm not going to have
      > time to look at.
      >
      > >
      > 2. It seems that the rookies having the most impact
      > are the ones who
      > stayed in school the longest? Is this true? How
      > are they doing
      > relative to other guys who would be in their class
      > but left early?
      > This gets at whether the NBA or college is better to
      > train the kids.
      > Any early sense for ROY?

      Right now Tinsley, Gasol, Haywood, Kirilenko and
      Johnson would seem to be the favorites, but the season
      has a ways to go and I'm sure others will emerge.
      There's also Battier, Richardson, Jefferson, Hassell
      and Rebreca playing significant roles. The prepsters
      and guys with only a year in college have barely made
      a ripple. WE should be able to get a better idea on
      them as the season wears on and they start to get it.
      >
      > 3. Are the Pistons for real? They lost a lot on
      > their west coast
      > trip? What happened there?

      Only scanning the numbers here, but my guess is they
      had a few things go their way early. Williamson,
      Wallace and Stackhouse all seem to be playing better
      than they normally do. They also got unexpected
      contributions from Rebreca. I still don't see a team
      that's a threat to the Eastern "elite" however.

      >
      > 4. What happened to Charlotte? It appears that the
      > defense vanished
      > and the offense has taken some time to get in gear.
      > Why did the
      > defense evaporate?

      They miss Eddie Robinson perhaps? PJ and Eldon might
      be getting a little past their primes. Weren't we able
      to pin their defensive problems on Derrick Coleman
      last season? Think he has a carryover effect? : )
      >
      > 5. The most similar players to Dennis Rodman tend
      > to be (if you
      > weight rebounds heavily, in approximate order of
      > similarity) Wes
      > Unseld, Popeye Jones, Larry Smith, Jayson Williams,
      > Charles Oakley --
      > none of whom are great comparisons. There are also
      > a lot of one-
      > season similar guys - Jerome Lane '91, Jamie Feick
      > 2000, Cadillac
      > Anderson '92, etc. Since it is difficult to
      > evaluate the impact of
      > Rodman himself, can we evaluate the value of the
      > other guys? Can we
      > look at their team win/loss records overall? Can we
      > look at their
      > team offense and defensive ratings?
      >
      > 6. Early all-star sentiments.

      East: Andre Miller, Jason Kidd, Tracy McGrady, Ben
      Wallace and if you can find a deserving PF, you're a
      better man than me. Perhaps play Wallace at PF and
      make Mutumbo the center. Or put Vince in at the other
      forward and try to run and gun.

      West: Bryant, Nash, Garnett, Duncan and Shaq. Nash
      might be shaky and could easily be replaced by
      Stockton, Payton, Marbury or Francis. Depending on
      your POV. The other four are givens.
      >
      > 7. How much did Milwaukee lose by getting rid of
      > Scott Williams?
      > Did they get it back with Anthony Mason?

      I thought they lost a lot at the time. From what I
      saw, Williams was Milwaukee's best defender last year
      and the team seemed to play much better when he was on
      the court. I don't think Mason fits in as well. He's
      probably a better all-around player than Williams, but
      I feel Milwaukee needs a banger like Williams more
      than they need a multi-skilled guy like Mason. They're
      short a big guy now and Karl seems to be trying to
      force feed Joel Przybilla into that role with mixed
      results.

      The Bucks might ultimately need to make a blockbuster
      trade involving Big Dog or Ray Allen. The team is
      lopsided with perimeter players and the Mason deal
      tilted them more in that direction. They may have to
      make a Ray Allen for Bonzi Wells and Dale Davis type
      of swap if they hope to compete come playoff time.

      Most of these comments are just observations and not
      stat analysis. I just didn't want to let some of these
      pass without commenting.

      Ed Weiland

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
      http://greetings.yahoo.com
    • ga basket
      You re right Pau Gasol is a very good player and he plays as well as his las season in Europe. But, Tony Parker, the young PG of San Antinio also makes a very
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 4, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        You're right Pau Gasol is a very good player and he
        plays as well as his las season in Europe.

        But, Tony Parker, the young PG of San Antinio also
        makes a very good beginning of season. After few
        games, he is on the starting five and plays about 30
        min per game. Two years ago, Tony played only few
        minutes with Paris Basket and was the back up of
        Laurent Sciarra (remember Sydney).
        Tony will be one of best point guard in Europ, and
        maybe in US.

        Regards,
        GA
        France

        --- Ed Weiland <weiland1029@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- HoopStudies <deano@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > My time to look at hoops questions lasts another
        > day
        > > or so, so I'd
        > > like to post a few things that I'm not going to
        > have
        > > time to look at.
        > >
        > > >
        > > 2. It seems that the rookies having the most
        > impact
        > > are the ones who
        > > stayed in school the longest? Is this true? How
        > > are they doing
        > > relative to other guys who would be in their class
        > > but left early?
        > > This gets at whether the NBA or college is better
        > to
        > > train the kids.
        > > Any early sense for ROY?
        >
        > Right now Tinsley, Gasol, Haywood, Kirilenko and
        > Johnson would seem to be the favorites, but the
        > season
        > has a ways to go and I'm sure others will emerge.
        > There's also Battier, Richardson, Jefferson, Hassell
        > and Rebreca playing significant roles. The prepsters
        > and guys with only a year in college have barely
        > made
        > a ripple. WE should be able to get a better idea on
        > them as the season wears on and they start to get
        > it.
        > >
        > > 3. Are the Pistons for real? They lost a lot on
        > > their west coast
        > > trip? What happened there?
        >
        > Only scanning the numbers here, but my guess is they
        > had a few things go their way early. Williamson,
        > Wallace and Stackhouse all seem to be playing better
        > than they normally do. They also got unexpected
        > contributions from Rebreca. I still don't see a team
        > that's a threat to the Eastern "elite" however.
        >
        > >
        > > 4. What happened to Charlotte? It appears that
        > the
        > > defense vanished
        > > and the offense has taken some time to get in
        > gear.
        > > Why did the
        > > defense evaporate?
        >
        > They miss Eddie Robinson perhaps? PJ and Eldon might
        > be getting a little past their primes. Weren't we
        > able
        > to pin their defensive problems on Derrick Coleman
        > last season? Think he has a carryover effect? : )
        > >
        > > 5. The most similar players to Dennis Rodman tend
        > > to be (if you
        > > weight rebounds heavily, in approximate order of
        > > similarity) Wes
        > > Unseld, Popeye Jones, Larry Smith, Jayson
        > Williams,
        > > Charles Oakley --
        > > none of whom are great comparisons. There are
        > also
        > > a lot of one-
        > > season similar guys - Jerome Lane '91, Jamie Feick
        > > 2000, Cadillac
        > > Anderson '92, etc. Since it is difficult to
        > > evaluate the impact of
        > > Rodman himself, can we evaluate the value of the
        > > other guys? Can we
        > > look at their team win/loss records overall? Can
        > we
        > > look at their
        > > team offense and defensive ratings?
        > >
        > > 6. Early all-star sentiments.
        >
        > East: Andre Miller, Jason Kidd, Tracy McGrady, Ben
        > Wallace and if you can find a deserving PF, you're a
        > better man than me. Perhaps play Wallace at PF and
        > make Mutumbo the center. Or put Vince in at the
        > other
        > forward and try to run and gun.
        >
        > West: Bryant, Nash, Garnett, Duncan and Shaq. Nash
        > might be shaky and could easily be replaced by
        > Stockton, Payton, Marbury or Francis. Depending on
        > your POV. The other four are givens.
        > >
        > > 7. How much did Milwaukee lose by getting rid of
        > > Scott Williams?
        > > Did they get it back with Anthony Mason?
        >
        > I thought they lost a lot at the time. From what I
        > saw, Williams was Milwaukee's best defender last
        > year
        > and the team seemed to play much better when he was
        > on
        > the court. I don't think Mason fits in as well. He's
        > probably a better all-around player than Williams,
        > but
        > I feel Milwaukee needs a banger like Williams more
        > than they need a multi-skilled guy like Mason.
        > They're
        > short a big guy now and Karl seems to be trying to
        > force feed Joel Przybilla into that role with mixed
        > results.
        >
        > The Bucks might ultimately need to make a
        > blockbuster
        > trade involving Big Dog or Ray Allen. The team is
        > lopsided with perimeter players and the Mason deal
        > tilted them more in that direction. They may have to
        > make a Ray Allen for Bonzi Wells and Dale Davis type
        > of swap if they hope to compete come playoff time.
        >
        > Most of these comments are just observations and not
        > stat analysis. I just didn't want to let some of
        > these
        > pass without commenting.
        >
        > Ed Weiland
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
        > http://greetings.yahoo.com
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
        http://greetings.yahoo.com
      • mikel_ind
        ... I have the following ratings for rookies: 29.9 Pau Gasol, Mem 28.7 Andrei Kirelenko, Uta 27.6 Jamaal Tinsley, Ind 27.1 Zeljco Rebraca, Det 24.6 Shane
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 4, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In APBR_analysis@y..., Ed Weiland <weiland1029@y...> wrote:

          > Right now Tinsley, Gasol, Haywood, Kirilenko and
          > Johnson would seem to be the favorites, but the season
          > has a ways to go and I'm sure others will emerge.
          > There's also Battier, Richardson, Jefferson, Hassell
          > and Rebreca playing significant roles. The prepsters
          > and guys with only a year in college have barely made
          > a ripple. WE should be able to get a better idea on
          > them as the season wears on and they start to get it.


          I have the following ratings for rookies:

          29.9 Pau Gasol, Mem
          28.7 Andrei Kirelenko, Uta
          27.6 Jamaal Tinsley, Ind
          27.1 Zeljco Rebraca, Det
          24.6 Shane Battier, Mem
          24.3 Brendan Haywood, Was
          24.2 Charles Smith, SA
          22.5 Jason Richardson, GS
          22.5 Tony Parker, SA
          21.1 Eddie Griffin, Hou
          21.1 Joe Johnson, Bos
          19.7 Troy Murphy, GS
          19.6 Vladimir Radmanovic, Sea
          19.6 Richard Jefferson, NJ

          Apologies, if I included non-rookies; these are just guys I never
          heard of before this year.
        • Michael K. Tamada
          On Sat, 5 Jan 2002, mikel_ind wrote: [...] ... Where do you have Earl Watson rated? He s scored fewer points per game than Radmanovic (both are rookies for
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 4, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            On Sat, 5 Jan 2002, mikel_ind wrote:

            [...]

            > I have the following ratings for rookies:
            >
            > 29.9 Pau Gasol, Mem
            > 28.7 Andrei Kirelenko, Uta
            > 27.6 Jamaal Tinsley, Ind
            > 27.1 Zeljco Rebraca, Det
            > 24.6 Shane Battier, Mem
            > 24.3 Brendan Haywood, Was
            > 24.2 Charles Smith, SA
            > 22.5 Jason Richardson, GS
            > 22.5 Tony Parker, SA
            > 21.1 Eddie Griffin, Hou
            > 21.1 Joe Johnson, Bos
            > 19.7 Troy Murphy, GS
            > 19.6 Vladimir Radmanovic, Sea
            > 19.6 Richard Jefferson, NJ
            >
            > Apologies, if I included non-rookies; these are just guys I never
            > heard of before this year.

            Where do you have Earl Watson rated? He's scored fewer points per game
            than Radmanovic (both are rookies for Seattle) and, not surprisingly
            (given that Watson's a 6' PG and Radmanovic a 6'10" forward), gets
            fewer rebounds and blocked shots. But in all other respects Watson's
            looked better and I think accomplished more than Radmanovic:

            Watson's played 509 minutes in 31 games, compared to 436 mins in 25 games
            for Radmanovic. His 151 points matches pretty well with Radmanovic's 146.
            More importantly, Watson's shooting 47% (37% on 3-pointers) while
            Radmanovic is
            shooting 41% (albeit 46% on 3-pters). Watson's produced 58 assists
            compared to 28 turnovers while Radmanovic has produced 23 assists and 28
            turnovers. Those 35 extra assists might or might not compensate for the
            32 extra rebounds that Radmanovic has grabbed, but Watson's also got 14
            more steals than Radmanovic (who has a more than respectable 21 but
            Watson's got an Iversonish 35).

            On a per-48 minute statistical basis I suspect they'd come out pretty
            similar, but
            the extra minutes given to Watson are no accident; he's already the team's
            backup point guard and became it's third guard when Desmond Mason got
            injured. Even with Mason back, the Sonics often use a three-guard lineup
            (with Mason or Barry playing a small forwardish position) and have been
            giving Watson more minutes than ever, sometimes even using him
            simultaneously with Payton.


            On the non-statistical side, Watson's become an important part of the
            Sonics' rotation whereas Radmanovic like most rookies gets playing time
            inconsistently, as befits his inconsistent play. Watson's managed to hold
            his own as a rookie point guard (usually point guards take years to
            develop -- Gary Payton didn't become an all-star until his fourth season).
            Radmanovic can only be used in certain matchups -- his defense is still
            very very weak. Against the Clippers I saw him get posterized not once
            but twice, one by Brand and once by Darius Miles. Actually, I would call
            it not "posterizing" but "videoizing", because you'd need to see a 1-2
            second video clip to appreciate the play. To me, "posterizing" means a
            guy getting crazily dunked on. But Radmanovic would not have even been in
            the picture if someone took a photo of Brand's or Miles' dunks -- because
            Radmanovic had been left 12-15 feet behind, still rooted to the spot while
            the Clippers blitzed around him for the dunk.


            I didn't expect to be a Watson booster. Living in LA, I've followed his
            career at UCLA a little (I don't watch much college basketball, especially
            mens). To me he seemed to have no NBA future; he played second fiddle to
            Baron Davis his first two years, then had to be the man at the point the
            last two. Which was initially very difficult for him (I think he'd been a
            shooter, not a point guard, in high school). A typical UCLA game for him
            was 3 assists and 6 turnovers. But to his credit he didn't complain and
            by his senior year he had become a respectable college point guard. The
            Sonics drafted him in the second round, which seemed about right -- most
            second rounders wash out and never amount to anything in the NBA.

            But by golly, after a slow month or so he's stepped right in, in the most
            difficult position for rookies to excel at. He's no Jamaal Tinsley or
            Tony Parker, but he might be one of the steals of the draft. Actually, if
            given more minutes, his stats might be pretty close to Parker's.



            --MKT
          • HoopStudies
            ... per game ... Watson s ... Having seen the Sonics and being pretty close to their operations, I know a bit about what they re thinking. They like
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 4, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
              > > Where do you have Earl Watson rated? He's scored fewer points
              per game
              > than Radmanovic (both are rookies for Seattle) and, not surprisingly
              > (given that Watson's a 6' PG and Radmanovic a 6'10" forward), gets
              > fewer rebounds and blocked shots. But in all other respects
              Watson's
              > looked better and I think accomplished more than Radmanovic:

              Having seen the Sonics and being pretty close to their operations, I
              know a bit about what they're thinking. They like Radmanovic,
              actually. They think he plays a lot better in practice than in
              games, annoyingly. Coach McMillan was giving him kudos for his
              defense because he is very active.

              Here's what Sporting News recently said:

              Small forward: Radmanovic came close to seriously injuring himself
              last week after falling on his neck following a dunk. Radmanovic was
              forced to miss a game. But before the injury, Radmanovic had been
              forcing McMillan to find the rookie playing time. Radmanovic is back
              now and with his surprising play, don't expect the Yugoslavian to
              languish on the bench. Grade: B

              A previous edition said that he is playing better D. I thought he
              looked very hyper, full of potential. But he has some skills.
              We'll see if he develops them.

              DeanO
            • mikel_ind
              Earl Watson rates 17.9, Radmanovich 19.6. Neither is worthy, at this time of starting anywhere, or even getting much time for a strong team. ... game ...
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 4, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Earl Watson rates 17.9, Radmanovich 19.6. Neither is worthy, at this
                time of starting anywhere, or even getting much time for a strong
                team.

                --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
                > Where do you have Earl Watson rated? He's scored fewer points per
                game
                > than Radmanovic (both are rookies for Seattle) and, not surprisingly
                > (given that Watson's a 6' PG and Radmanovic a 6'10" forward), gets
                > fewer rebounds and blocked shots. But in all other respects
                Watson's
                > looked better and I think accomplished more than Radmanovic:
                >
                > Watson's played 509 minutes in 31 games, compared to 436 mins in 25
                games
                > for Radmanovic. His 151 points matches pretty well with
                Radmanovic's 146.
                > More importantly, Watson's shooting 47% (37% on 3-pointers) while
                > Radmanovic is
                > shooting 41% (albeit 46% on 3-pters).

                Watson shooting .515 overall, Radmanovic .529.

                Watson's produced 58 assists
                > compared to 28 turnovers while Radmanovic has produced 23 assists
                and 28
                > turnovers. Those 35 extra assists might or might not compensate
                for the
                > 32 extra rebounds that Radmanovic has grabbed, but Watson's also
                got 14
                > more steals than Radmanovic (who has a more than respectable 21 but
                > Watson's got an Iversonish 35).
                >
                > On a per-48 minute statistical basis I suspect they'd come out
                pretty
                > similar, but
                > the extra minutes given to Watson are no accident; he's already the
                team's
                > backup point guard and became it's third guard when Desmond Mason
                got
                > injured. Even with Mason back, the Sonics often use a three-guard
                lineup
                > (with Mason or Barry playing a small forwardish position) and have
                been
                > giving Watson more minutes than ever, sometimes even using him
                > simultaneously with Payton.

                They average about the same minutes per game, but Watson has played
                in 6 more games.


                > On the non-statistical side, Watson's become an important part of
                the
                > Sonics' rotation whereas Radmanovic like most rookies gets playing
                time
                > inconsistently, as befits his inconsistent play. Watson's managed
                to hold
                > his own as a rookie point guard (usually point guards take years to
                > develop -- Gary Payton didn't become an all-star until his fourth
                season).
                > Radmanovic can only be used in certain matchups -- his defense is
                still
                > very very weak. ....

                The Euros' lack of defensive skill is legendary; and without doing
                any research, I guess the 'ovich guy is a Euro.

                > I didn't expect to be a Watson booster. .....He's no Jamaal Tinsley
                or
                > Tony Parker, but he might be one of the steals of the draft.
                Actually, if
                > given more minutes, his stats might be pretty close to Parker's.
                >
                > --MKT

                I actually don't see Parker as being particularly productive.
                Apparently he does something right, or he has some perceived
                potential, to warrant his getting more minutes than running-mates
                Daniels, Porter, Smith, and Smith.

                A player of Earl Watson's productive stature can be an impact player
                if he plays relentless D, can hit the 3, keeps his TOs down, is
                willing to come off the bench, etc. Great skills are not evident
                (though his steals rate is noteworthy).
              • harlanzo
                I think the Charles Smith of SA is not rookie but a guy who was drafted by the Miami Heat back in 97 ouf of New Mexico and then went to the Clippers for Brent
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 4, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think the Charles Smith of SA is not rookie but a guy who was
                  drafted by the Miami Heat back in 97 ouf of New Mexico and then went
                  to the Clippers for Brent Barry during his rookie year. he was out of
                  the NBA last year.

                  --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "mikel_ind" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
                  > Earl Watson rates 17.9, Radmanovich 19.6. Neither is worthy, at
                  this
                  > time of starting anywhere, or even getting much time for a strong
                  > team.
                  >
                  > --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
                  > > Where do you have Earl Watson rated? He's scored fewer points
                  per
                  > game
                  > > than Radmanovic (both are rookies for Seattle) and, not
                  surprisingly
                  > > (given that Watson's a 6' PG and Radmanovic a 6'10" forward), gets
                  > > fewer rebounds and blocked shots. But in all other respects
                  > Watson's
                  > > looked better and I think accomplished more than Radmanovic:
                  > >
                  > > Watson's played 509 minutes in 31 games, compared to 436 mins in
                  25
                  > games
                  > > for Radmanovic. His 151 points matches pretty well with
                  > Radmanovic's 146.
                  > > More importantly, Watson's shooting 47% (37% on 3-pointers) while
                  > > Radmanovic is
                  > > shooting 41% (albeit 46% on 3-pters).
                  >
                  > Watson shooting .515 overall, Radmanovic .529.
                  >
                  > Watson's produced 58 assists
                  > > compared to 28 turnovers while Radmanovic has produced 23 assists
                  > and 28
                  > > turnovers. Those 35 extra assists might or might not compensate
                  > for the
                  > > 32 extra rebounds that Radmanovic has grabbed, but Watson's also
                  > got 14
                  > > more steals than Radmanovic (who has a more than respectable 21
                  but
                  > > Watson's got an Iversonish 35).
                  > >
                  > > On a per-48 minute statistical basis I suspect they'd come out
                  > pretty
                  > > similar, but
                  > > the extra minutes given to Watson are no accident; he's already
                  the
                  > team's
                  > > backup point guard and became it's third guard when Desmond Mason
                  > got
                  > > injured. Even with Mason back, the Sonics often use a three-
                  guard
                  > lineup
                  > > (with Mason or Barry playing a small forwardish position) and
                  have
                  > been
                  > > giving Watson more minutes than ever, sometimes even using him
                  > > simultaneously with Payton.
                  >
                  > They average about the same minutes per game, but Watson has played
                  > in 6 more games.
                  >
                  >
                  > > On the non-statistical side, Watson's become an important part of
                  > the
                  > > Sonics' rotation whereas Radmanovic like most rookies gets
                  playing
                  > time
                  > > inconsistently, as befits his inconsistent play. Watson's
                  managed
                  > to hold
                  > > his own as a rookie point guard (usually point guards take years
                  to
                  > > develop -- Gary Payton didn't become an all-star until his fourth
                  > season).
                  > > Radmanovic can only be used in certain matchups -- his defense is
                  > still
                  > > very very weak. ....
                  >
                  > The Euros' lack of defensive skill is legendary; and without doing
                  > any research, I guess the 'ovich guy is a Euro.
                  >
                  > > I didn't expect to be a Watson booster. .....He's no Jamaal
                  Tinsley
                  > or
                  > > Tony Parker, but he might be one of the steals of the draft.
                  > Actually, if
                  > > given more minutes, his stats might be pretty close to Parker's.
                  > >
                  > > --MKT
                  >
                  > I actually don't see Parker as being particularly productive.
                  > Apparently he does something right, or he has some perceived
                  > potential, to warrant his getting more minutes than running-mates
                  > Daniels, Porter, Smith, and Smith.
                  >
                  > A player of Earl Watson's productive stature can be an impact
                  player
                  > if he plays relentless D, can hit the 3, keeps his TOs down, is
                  > willing to come off the bench, etc. Great skills are not evident
                  > (though his steals rate is noteworthy).
                • mikel_ind
                  Right you are, harlanzo; and this is good news, as far as keeping track of guys named Charles Smith. After 2 seasons playing less than 300 minutes, and no
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 5, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Right you are, harlanzo; and this is good news, as far as keeping
                    track of guys named Charles Smith.

                    After 2 seasons playing less than 300 minutes, and no distinction,
                    Mr. Smith was actually out of the league for 2 full seasons.

                    His improvement this year made his stats unrecognizable to me.

                    --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...> wrote:
                    > I think the Charles Smith of SA is not rookie but a guy who was
                    > drafted by the Miami Heat back in 97 ouf of New Mexico and then
                    went
                    > to the Clippers for Brent Barry during his rookie year. he was out
                    of
                    > the NBA last year.
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.