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Re: New file uploaded to APBR_analysis

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  • HoopStudies
    ... take ... Thanks for the comments. Keep them coming. I generally passed on the same comments to Dave before I got the article posted. I do think it is
    Message 1 of 77 , Dec 25, 2001
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      --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...> wrote:
      > This article is interesting stuff but the conclusions of course
      take
      > away from the methods. THe idea that the best player in the league
      > was Rodman is obviously untenable.

      Thanks for the comments. Keep them coming.

      I generally passed on the same comments to Dave before I got the
      article posted. I do think it is important that we better understand
      his work and he better understand ours. He, for instance, knew of
      Bill James but no details of his work. Econometric guys have their
      framework for the world and, in this case, he tried to make
      basketball fit that framework. I certainly don't think the framework
      fits the individual interactions of the game, though, his analysis
      shows that team numbers can be replicated with his model pretty
      well. I am struggling a bit with the communication to get him to
      understand why I don't think the method works -- other than the
      conclusions being "obviously untenable" (I think I said that the
      results don't pass the laugh test). I do not think that his team
      analysis can be simply broken down into individuals, but I think my
      reason right now is that, uh, the results aren't good. I need a
      better reason than that and I'm working to figure out exactly where
      his logic is flawed. (Maybe asking him to explain the Iverson effect
      of a couple messages ago is a start.)

      Anyway, couple things

      1. I will pass on your comments to Dave as soon as we get a good set
      of them.
      2. I think it is important to interact with the academic world doing
      this kind of work. He posed some good objectives in his intro --
      looking at "the extent of racial discrimination" and "the impact
      alternative institutional arrangements have on worker compensation in
      professional basketball".
      3. He bashes linear weights methods like Tendex, etc., though I
      believe his method essentially is that, but generating a number that
      means something -- wins. He effectively generates weights for each
      statistic based on the correlation to wins. A lot of people here
      like to rely on linear weights -- anyone want to specifically comment
      on how he did it, whether it has any relevance to other methods,
      whether his stuff could be tweaked?

      > The method did seem accurate on a
      > team level. This leads me to believe that at the very least some
      > positional adjustments should be made.

      One of the things I generally do not like actually is that he does
      evaluate players against the average of their position. I like
      absolute measures that perhaps show that big men dominated in the
      70's, point guards in '80's, and swingmen-size players since. That
      tells us something about how the game has changed. Normalizing to
      positional averages hides it (and, I think for this case, hides a
      flaw in his method).

      Dean Oliver
      Journal of Basketball Studies

      In addition, linking a
      > player's "efficiency" (or whatever else you want to call it) with
      not
      > missing shots or making turnovers ignores that Rodman and players
      > like Outlaw and Jayson Williams are afraid to dribble or shoot the
      > ball. I assume these methods would slam Iverson as inefficient
      but,
      > in reality, no GM would trade Iverson for any of those guys. So I
      > wonder what we can isolate statistically that quantifies IVerson's
      > prodcutivity over guys like these.
      >
      > --- In APBR_analysis@y..., APBR_analysis@y... wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello,
      > >
      > > This email message is a notification to let you know that
      > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the APBR_analysis
      > > group.
      > >
      > > File : /Who is MVP.pdf
      > > Uploaded by : HoopStudies <deano@r...>
      > > Description : Managerial and Decision Economics Paper on
      > Individual Wins
      > >
      > > You can access this file at the URL
      > >
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/APBR_analysis/files/Who%20is%
      > 20MVP.pdf
      > >
      > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
      > >
      > > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > >
      > > HoopStudies <deano@r...>
    • APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com
      Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the APBR_analysis group. File : /Warriors
      Message 77 of 77 , May 5, 2005
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        Hello,

        This email message is a notification to let you know that
        a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the APBR_analysis
        group.

        File : /Warriors Stats.pdf
        Uploaded by : skauffman <skauffman@...>
        Description : Analysis of the Golden State Warriors 2004-05 Season

        You can access this file at the URL:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/APBR_analysis/files/Warriors%20Stats.pdf

        To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
        http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

        Regards,

        skauffman <skauffman@...>
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