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Re: Offensive Rebounding Part of Offensive Rating

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  • Mike G
    ... Good question, Gabe. The team gets indirect credit for turnovers forced in the final score. It amounts to an extra possession, and points off
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 4 9:39 AM
      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Gabe Farkas <gabefark@y...>
      wrote:
      > ... is there any positive value credited to the
      > Pacers in some way for the balance of Turnovers
      > committed by the Lakers that were not the result of
      > Steals?

      Good question, Gabe.

      The team gets indirect credit for "turnovers forced" in the final
      score. It amounts to an extra possession, and "points off
      turnovers" is a often-tracked quantity.

      Individual players don't get direct credit, as turnovers aren't
      credited to players on the defensive side. However, a number of
      accounting systems give indirect credit for team scoring
      differentials; as such, credit can be apportioned for a player's
      minutes on the floor.

      DanR's "corrections" of Roland's in/out figures would seem to
      incorporate this "uncounted" stat, within the team +/- .
    • Gabe Farkas
      Mike, I m not sure that s exactly where I was going with this. Basically, there are two kinds of turnovers: forced and unforced. Right? So, how can a forced
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 5 7:54 AM
        Mike,

        I'm not sure that's exactly where I was going with
        this.

        Basically, there are two kinds of turnovers: forced
        and unforced. Right?

        So, how can a forced turnover occur? The other team
        steals the ball.

        And how can an unforced turnover occur? Throwing the
        ball away, double-dribble, traveling, charging, etc.

        My question is this: Other than steals, are there any
        recorded and tabulated statistics that are the
        flip-side of turnovers, or that lead to forced
        turnovers?

        Am I oversimplifying?

        --Gabe


        --- Mike G <msg_53@...> wrote:
        > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Gabe Farkas
        > <gabefark@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > ... is there any positive value credited to the
        > > Pacers in some way for the balance of Turnovers
        > > committed by the Lakers that were not the result
        > of
        > > Steals?
        >
        > Good question, Gabe.
        >
        > The team gets indirect credit for "turnovers forced"
        > in the final
        > score. It amounts to an extra possession, and
        > "points off
        > turnovers" is a often-tracked quantity.
        >
        > Individual players don't get direct credit, as
        > turnovers aren't
        > credited to players on the defensive side. However,
        > a number of
        > accounting systems give indirect credit for team
        > scoring
        > differentials; as such, credit can be apportioned
        > for a player's
        > minutes on the floor.
        >
        > DanR's "corrections" of Roland's in/out figures
        > would seem to
        > incorporate this "uncounted" stat, within the team
        > +/- .
        >
        >


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      • Kevin Pelton
        ... On an individual level? Not yet. Have you seen DeanO s system? some explanation: http://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kJBxQCBiN7JnB9ZlKgeKp7wq-
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 5 10:31 AM
          > My question is this: Other than steals, are there any
          > recorded and tabulated statistics that are the
          > flip-side of turnovers, or that lead to forced
          > turnovers?

          On an individual level? Not yet. Have you seen DeanO's system?

          some explanation:
          http://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kJBxQCBiN7JnB9ZlKgeKp7wq-
          7TntGsnvp2l3c49Cz03ntrXD0lEWDOD9UVsUoRMb4FPY-1Zb-
          PwL31OG7yaucWm7L7I6WyNqF0YkQ/defstophandchart.xls

          of course, it's all explained in more detail in Chapter 17 of The
          Book:
          http://www.basketballonpaper.com/book.html

          One of the interesting things about DeanO's system is that while the
          stats are primarily defensive, they can be used to evaluate offenses
          as well. When you break out "unforced" turnovers that are really
          charges and deflections off a player and out of bounds, etc., you get
          really unforced turnovers -- throwing the ball out of bounds, for
          example. It's a useful thing to know about an offense.
        • Michael Tamada
          DeanO s defensive box scores that he (and his corps of volunteers) did for the WNBA did this: assign credit for turnovers to one or more defenders. Even
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 5 10:34 AM
            DeanO's defensive box scores that he (and his
            corps of volunteers) did for the WNBA did this:
            assign credit for turnovers to one or more
            defenders. Even steals, which under standard
            statistics get credited to only one player, might
            get credited to two if, e.g. in the opinion of the
            stats-keeper, one player stood up the dribbler with
            a double-team, enabling the other to grab the ball.

            If it was something like a 5-second violation or
            shot clock violation, that credit went to the whole
            team ... or did it go to the 5 people on the floor?
            I forget, but the latter would make sense.

            However, those are special statistics not normally
            collected. For most situations, I think MikeG's
            answer is correct; these unforced turnovers only
            show up very indirectly in the defenders' stats.


            --MKT

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Gabe Farkas [mailto:gabefark@...]
            Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:55 AM


            Mike,

            I'm not sure that's exactly where I was going with
            this.

            Basically, there are two kinds of turnovers: forced
            and unforced. Right?

            So, how can a forced turnover occur? The other team
            steals the ball.

            And how can an unforced turnover occur? Throwing the
            ball away, double-dribble, traveling, charging, etc.

            My question is this: Other than steals, are there any
            recorded and tabulated statistics that are the
            flip-side of turnovers, or that lead to forced
            turnovers?

            Am I oversimplifying?

            --Gabe


            --- Mike G <msg_53@...> wrote:
            > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Gabe Farkas
            > <gabefark@y...>
            > wrote:
            > > ... is there any positive value credited to the
            > > Pacers in some way for the balance of Turnovers
            > > committed by the Lakers that were not the result
            > of
            > > Steals?
            >
            > Good question, Gabe.
            >
            > The team gets indirect credit for "turnovers forced"
            > in the final
            > score. It amounts to an extra possession, and
            > "points off
            > turnovers" is a often-tracked quantity.
            >
            > Individual players don't get direct credit, as
            > turnovers aren't
            > credited to players on the defensive side. However,
            > a number of
            > accounting systems give indirect credit for team
            > scoring
            > differentials; as such, credit can be apportioned
            > for a player's
            > minutes on the floor.
            >
            > DanR's "corrections" of Roland's in/out figures
            > would seem to
            > incorporate this "uncounted" stat, within the team
            > +/- .
            >
            >


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          • Gabe Farkas
            No, I haven t gotten a chance to read the book yet, but I ve been craving it for a few months now. Just haven t gotten around to picking it up. Can you
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 5 12:57 PM
              No, I haven't gotten a chance to read the book yet,
              but I've been craving it for a few months now. Just
              haven't gotten around to picking it up. Can you
              summarize the book in 25 words or less? Kidding, of
              course.

              what about taking Charges? are those tracked?

              --- Kevin Pelton <kpelton08@...> wrote:
              > > My question is this: Other than steals, are there
              > any
              > > recorded and tabulated statistics that are the
              > > flip-side of turnovers, or that lead to forced
              > > turnovers?
              >
              > On an individual level? Not yet. Have you seen
              > DeanO's system?
              >
              > some explanation:
              >
              http://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kJBxQCBiN7JnB9ZlKgeKp7wq-
              > 7TntGsnvp2l3c49Cz03ntrXD0lEWDOD9UVsUoRMb4FPY-1Zb-
              > PwL31OG7yaucWm7L7I6WyNqF0YkQ/defstophandchart.xls
              >
              > of course, it's all explained in more detail in
              > Chapter 17 of The
              > Book:
              > http://www.basketballonpaper.com/book.html
              >
              > One of the interesting things about DeanO's system
              > is that while the
              > stats are primarily defensive, they can be used to
              > evaluate offenses
              > as well. When you break out "unforced" turnovers
              > that are really
              > charges and deflections off a player and out of
              > bounds, etc., you get
              > really unforced turnovers -- throwing the ball out
              > of bounds, for
              > example. It's a useful thing to know about an
              > offense.
              >
              >


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            • Kevin Pelton
              ... I m not sure whether you mean in DeanO s system or in general, so I ll answer both questions. In DeanO s system, they re counted as any other forced
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 5 2:01 PM
                > No, I haven't gotten a chance to read the book yet,
                > but I've been craving it for a few months now. Just
                > haven't gotten around to picking it up. Can you
                > summarize the book in 25 words or less? Kidding, of
                > course.
                >
                > what about taking Charges? are those tracked?

                I'm not sure whether you mean in DeanO's system or in general, so
                I'll answer both questions.

                In DeanO's system, they're counted as any other forced turnover, not
                broken out (though certainly one *could* do that).

                In real life, I think some teams track this (Denver?
                http://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/notes.pdf ) but it's not official.
                I'll take a look and see if they're in Harvey Pollack's book.

                (As an aside, one of the neat things about being part of The Media is
                the chance to see what things teams track in their game notes, like
                the Wolves with what we now know as "Roland Ratio" last year -- when
                there was a lot of general scoffing at the notion that a team could
                be 25 points better with its star player on the court.)
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