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Webber-less Kings better....

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  • bchaikin@aol.com
    anyone else notice how much worse the kings have been with chris webber than without? as of 3/2/04 they were 44-15 (.746), best or 2nd best in the league at
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 23, 2004

      anyone else notice how much worse the kings have been with chris webber than without? as of 3/2/04 they were 44-15 (.746), best or 2nd best in the league at the time, but just 7-5 since he's been back...

      i thought for sure that rather than mess with a good thing they'd bring him in off the bench once he returned, at least until the playoffs, but he's started every game since he's been back, playing about 33-34 min/g. and their losses since he's returned have been against MIA, POR, NJN, WSW, and MIL, not exactly league stalwarts...

      he has averaged about 1.5 touches/min since he's been back, touches/min typical of a point guard (and similar to his numbers of 02-03). haven't looked at it closely yet but i wonder if he's simply been taking touches away from better players since returning, costing the kings some games...

      bob chaikin
      bchaikin@...
    • nickouli5
      Wouldn t it be best to just let Webber get acclimated before the playoffs. He needs to get the touches so he can discover himself again within the team
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 24, 2004
        Wouldn't it be best to just let Webber get acclimated before the
        playoffs. He needs to get the touches so he can discover himself
        again within the team concept considering his long layoff.

        I think the team understands they need Chris to win a title. Without
        him they might have a pretty record, but its probably best to let
        Webb in as quickly as possible and let him create for the team.

        As an aside: where did you get that TOUCHES stat? How do you
        calculate this, and where can I see it for all the players?

        Thanks!
      • Mike G
        ... webber than ... the league ... According to Sagarin, the Kings were the best team without Webber; now they re a whisker behind the Spurs. In the last 20
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 24, 2004
          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, bchaikin@a... wrote:
          >
          > anyone else notice how much worse the kings have been with chris
          webber than
          > without? as of 3/2/04 they were 44-15 (.746), best or 2nd best in
          the league
          > at the time, but just 7-5 since he's been back...

          According to Sagarin, the Kings were the best team without Webber;
          now they're a whisker behind the Spurs.

          In the last 20 games, their team eff% has dropped from .561 to .557;
          not because the non-Webber Kings have dropped off, but because of
          Webber.

          Webber's shooting has been in decline for a couple of years, counter
          to the Kings' overall shooting. He's a dinosaur.

          eff% = pts/(FGA*2 + FTA)

          yr Sac. Webber
          99 .506 .485
          00 .519 .523
          01 .521 .509
          02 .531 .531
          03 .534 .484
          04 .557 .461

          >
          > i thought for sure that rather than mess with a good thing they'd
          bring him
          > in off the bench once he returned, at least until the playoffs,
          but he's
          > started every game since he's been back, playing about 33-34
          min/g. and their losses
          > since he's returned have been against MIA, POR, NJN, WSW, and MIL,
          not
          > exactly league stalwarts...

          Warning: tangent follows.

          Acronyms/abbreviations, whatever you want to call them, are easier
          to read when you don't use all-caps to represent: a syllable (like
          POR), 3 actual words (like NJN), and some combination (WSW). I
          actually had to think about that WSW for a while.

          NJN is, to me, a proper use of all-caps. Each capital letter
          represents a word, as in NASA, NATO, etc.

          Sports writing makes its own privileges, like poetry: "In the rally,
          Howard hit a single to right driving home Mantle and Pepitone
          followed with a double down the line."

          Who needs commas? Who needs to read the story twice to understand
          what happened?

          I don't mind "TO" for turnovers; it's a compound word. Other
          exceptions probably exist.

          Some team abbreviations get awkward when you insist on a 3-letter
          designation for each team. SA, NO, NJ, NY all work for me.

          That's my rant for the day.



          >
          > he has averaged about 1.5 touches/min since he's been back,
          touches/min
          > typical of a point guard (and similar to his numbers of 02-03).
          haven't looked at
          > it closely yet but i wonder if he's simply been taking touches
          away from better
          > players since returning, costing the kings some games...
          >
          > bob chaikin
          > bchaikin@b...
        • Dean Oliver
          ... The theme of the team offense getting worse with Webber is pretty constant over the last several years (though there was one exception, if I recall). As
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 24, 2004
            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
            > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, bchaikin@a... wrote:
            > >
            > > anyone else notice how much worse the kings have been with chris
            > webber than
            > > without? as of 3/2/04 they were 44-15 (.746), best or 2nd best in
            > the league
            > > at the time, but just 7-5 since he's been back...
            >
            > According to Sagarin, the Kings were the best team without Webber;
            > now they're a whisker behind the Spurs.
            >
            > In the last 20 games, their team eff% has dropped from .561 to .557;
            > not because the non-Webber Kings have dropped off, but because of
            > Webber.
            >
            > Webber's shooting has been in decline for a couple of years, counter
            > to the Kings' overall shooting. He's a dinosaur.
            >
            > eff% = pts/(FGA*2 + FTA)
            >
            > yr Sac. Webber
            > 99 .506 .485
            > 00 .519 .523
            > 01 .521 .509
            > 02 .531 .531
            > 03 .534 .484
            > 04 .557 .461
            >

            The theme of the team offense getting worse with Webber is pretty
            constant over the last several years (though there was one exception,
            if I recall). As BobC points out, CWebb really needs to touch the
            ball less in an offense that is built around balanced possessions --
            because everyone else can score more efficiently than CWebb.

            If the Kings do manage to just fit Webber in so that he focuses on the
            defense -- which is where Sac needs him for the playoffs -- then they
            can restore their offense and actually win in the playoffs.

            I assume that this conversation comes out of the fact that the Kings
            fans booed Webber relentlessly over the weekend for all the stupid
            things he did on the offensive side. The Kings fans have gotten used
            to a free flowing good offense this year. Seeing Webber take poor
            shots that don't look like that offense is pretty painful.

            Dean Oliver
            Author, Basketball on Paper
            http://www.basketballonpaper.com
            "Basketball on Paper is a revolutionary strike for statistical
            analysis of the game of basketball..." Hoopsworld.com's Kevin Pelton
          • bchaikin@aol.com
            Wouldn t it be best to just let Webber get acclimated before the playoffs.  He needs to get the touches so he can discover himself again within the team
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 24, 2004
              Wouldn't it be best to just let Webber get acclimated before the playoffs.  He needs to get the touches so he can discover himself again within the team concept considering his long layoff.

              I think the team understands they need Chris to win a title.  Without him they might have a pretty record, but its probably best to let Webb in as quickly as possible and let him create for the team.

              As an aside:  where did you get that TOUCHES stat?  How do you calculate this...

              its basic calculation is:

              possession factor (touches per minute) = 

                                   (shots taken) + (passes thrown) + (# times fouled) + (turnovers)

              and divide that number by minutes played, where...

              shots = FGA
              passes = ast/factorA
              #times fouled = FTA/factorB

              other factors fine tune the number, such as a team's pace and who the player's teammates are..

              and where can I see it for all the players?...

              check out the free downloadable NBA stats database at www.APBR.org or www.bballsports.com. either has this number for all players since 1977-78, plus for the ABA players...

              bob chaikin
              bchaikin@...
            • nickouli5
              Where do you get these POSSESION FACTOR STATS, who keeps track of them? Have them been kept over the years secretly? Where are up to date statistics on this
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 24, 2004
                Where do you get these POSSESION FACTOR STATS, who keeps track of
                them? Have them been kept over the years secretly?

                Where are up to date statistics on this kinds of stuff, in your
                databse?

                Thanks



                > its basic calculation is:
                >
                > possession factor (touches per minute) =
                >
                > (shots taken) + (passes thrown) + (# times
                fouled) +
                > (turnovers)
                >
                > and divide that number by minutes played, where...
                >
                > shots = FGA
                > passes = ast/factorA
                > #times fouled = FTA/factorB
                >
                > other factors fine tune the number, such as a team's pace and who
                the
                > player's teammates are..
                >
                > and where can I see it for all the players?...
                >
                >
                > check out the free downloadable NBA stats database at www.APBR.org
                or
                > www.bballsports.com. either has this number for all players since
                1977-78, plus for
                > the ABA players...
                >
                > bob chaikin
                > bchaikin@b...
              • nickouli5
                Also is there anyway I can COPY AND PASTE certain statistics of players in EXCEL formy own personal comparison with other players? How do I copy a selected
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 24, 2004
                  Also is there anyway I can COPY AND PASTE certain statistics of
                  players in EXCEL formy own personal comparison with other players?

                  How do I copy a selected region within this database?

                  Thank you!
                • bchaikin@aol.com
                  Where do you get these POSSESION FACTOR STATS, who keeps track of them? Have them been kept over the years secretly? Where are up to date statistics on this
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 24, 2004
                    Where do you get these POSSESION FACTOR STATS, who keeps track of them? Have them been kept over the years secretly?

                    Where are up to date statistics on this kinds of stuff, in your databse?

                    again, they are calculated based on the stats and on my own research of watching games on tape many moons ago...

                    the stats database has up to date stats (as of a week ago)...
                  • nickouli5
                    Oh you just watch Kings games you mean? Cause how can you get stats for ALL TEAMS and each of the players TOUCHES. Isn t that impossible? BTW, how do I copy
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 24, 2004
                      Oh you just watch Kings games you mean?

                      Cause how can you get stats for ALL TEAMS and each of the players
                      TOUCHES. Isn't that impossible?

                      BTW, how do I copy and paste a players statistics for comparison with
                      another player in EXCEL? Is there anyway I can import the STATS to
                      excel?

                      Thanks!






                      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, bchaikin@a... wrote:
                      > Where do you get these POSSESION FACTOR STATS, who keeps track of
                      them? Have
                      > them been kept over the years secretly?
                      >
                      > Where are up to date statistics on this kinds of stuff, in your
                      databse?
                      >
                      > again, they are calculated based on the stats and on my own
                      research of
                      > watching games on tape many moons ago...
                      >
                      > the stats database has up to date stats (as of a week ago)...
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