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Re: Tendex rebuttal

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  • Mike Goodman
    ... How about this: take players productivity ranking (I prefer my own). Take their minutes-per-game. Divide minutes by productivity. Players ranking high
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 4 4:25 AM
      --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Dean Oliver" <deano@t...> wrote:
      >No one has ever shown me a tendex-like
      > formula in basketball that does the same. Even when you do, then
      > I'll ask -- So what about defense?

      How about this: take players' productivity ranking (I prefer my
      own). Take their minutes-per-game. Divide minutes by productivity.
      Players ranking high in minutes and low in visible stats, must be
      doing those little, invisible things. Right?
      This is probably too simple, involving coaching quirks, management
      pressure, and such.

      I will get right on it.

      >.....If you can get me an offensive Tendex that correlates well
      > with points scored and a _relative_ defensive tendex that
      correlates
      > well with teams' _relative_ defensive ability, I might to start to
      go
      > to your dark side.

      The Dark Side has its perks.

      > >and dennis rodman, who i say
      > was
      > > possibly the greatest 2 tiered player (rebounding/defense) in the
      > game in the
      > > past 20 years and who many say makes a better woman.
      >
      > How many people say he makes a better woman and exactly why do they
      > think that? I retract the question.

      In an earlier Rodman go-round, I stated that he was a statistical
      freak, a freak of nature, and so ugly he actually looked better as a
      woman.
      I am undergoing counselling for my condition.
    • aussievamp2
      ... Tendex ... it is only ... This is a fairly new idea to me, and I have noticed that some people are saying it needs to be adjusted for game pace But if
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 4, 2002
        --- In APBR_analysis@y..., bchaikin@a... wrote:
        >
        > >tendex is simple, but may not be realisitc. whatever realistic is.
        Tendex
        > has nothing >it can be compared to in order to say its realistic.
        it is only
        > a rating....
        > opposition one point...


        This is a fairly new idea to me, and I have noticed that some people
        are saying it needs to be 'adjusted for game pace'

        But if you need this factor, can there be a 'gamepacedex'? e.g.
        what a player does to reflect on the pace of the game, using stats,
        so a number that shows addition or subtraction to the total points in
        a game?

        e.g. will a good point guard raise points in general, and a good
        centre lower them? (Mutombo being mentioned a couple of time as
        leaving a team and their total points scored in games going up) and
        what about other positions?
      • aussievamp2
        occur in ... putting it ... plays ... associated ... well ... Michael, you have your own weightings for a formula like this then?
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 4, 2002
          occur in
          > non-penalty situations ... of course they do hurt your team by
          putting it
          > closer to the penalty situation. And of course there's three-point
          plays
          > and four-point plays. And offensive fouls are TOs, with their
          associated
          > 1 point cost. But combining them all, the average foul is worth
          well
          > under 1 point, under .4 points for that matter.
          >
          >


          Michael, you have your own weightings for a formula like this then?
        • dlirag
          ... A good defender, I reckon, will tend to lower the overall score if his type of defense doesn t provide any corresponding improvement to his team s offense.
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 16, 2002
            --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "aussievamp2" <rnmscott@b...> wrote:

            > e.g. will a good point guard raise points in general, and a good
            > centre lower them? (Mutombo being mentioned a couple of time as
            > leaving a team and their total points scored in games going up) and
            > what about other positions?

            A good defender, I reckon, will tend to lower the overall score if
            his type of defense doesn't provide any corresponding improvement to
            his team's offense.
          • Michael K. Tamada
            ... Also one could imagine that a team s optimal strategies might change after Mutombo leaves the team. Instead of wanting a slow, halfcourt game, the team
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 16, 2002
              On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, dlirag wrote:

              > --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "aussievamp2" <rnmscott@b...> wrote:
              >
              > > e.g. will a good point guard raise points in general, and a good
              > > centre lower them? (Mutombo being mentioned a couple of time as
              > > leaving a team and their total points scored in games going up) and
              > > what about other positions?
              >
              > A good defender, I reckon, will tend to lower the overall score if
              > his type of defense doesn't provide any corresponding improvement to
              > his team's offense.

              Also one could imagine that a team's optimal strategies might change after
              Mutombo leaves the team. Instead of wanting a slow, halfcourt game, the
              team might want to start unleashing its greyhounds.

              Also, without Mutombo in there, the opponents may be scoring sooner,
              meaning that Mutombo's former team is getting the ball back sooner, and
              scoring more quickly than when he was in there and making the opponent use
              up 22 seconds of the shot clock.


              --MKT
            • HoopStudies
              ... if ... to ... There is a weak general dependence of pace on defense. Good defense has a slight tendency to also slow pace. It s not a guarantee by any
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 16, 2002
                --- In APBR_analysis@y..., "Michael K. Tamada" <tamada@o...> wrote:
                > >
                > > A good defender, I reckon, will tend to lower the overall score
                if
                > > his type of defense doesn't provide any corresponding improvement
                to
                > > his team's offense.
                >

                There is a weak general dependence of pace on defense. Good defense
                has a slight tendency to also slow pace. It's not a guarantee by any
                means. I've always felt that teams should run more with Mutombo in
                the lineup to avoid having to pass him the ball in the halfcourt.

                > Also one could imagine that a team's optimal strategies might
                change after
                > Mutombo leaves the team. Instead of wanting a slow, halfcourt
                game, the
                > team might want to start unleashing its greyhounds.
                >

                In contrast to the way the old Celtics did it with Russell. They ran
                with the shot blocker in there.

                How much of a player's performance is skill vs the strategy of his
                coaching staff? It's particularly difficult to say with specialists
                like Mutombo.

                DeanO
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