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Jordan effect, by position

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  • Mike G
    Due to the flood of responses (not to mention the storm of controversy) pouring in on this thread, I hardly know where to begin. So I ll delve even deeper into
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 23, 2004
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      Due to the flood of responses (not to mention the storm of
      controversy) pouring in on this thread, I hardly know where to begin.

      So I'll delve even deeper into the question: Did Michael Jordan
      make his teammates better?

      Perhaps he took from one position (his own?) and gave to others.

      Here are standardized production rate ratios, with/without Jordan in
      succeeding years (SS is sample size):

      position SS Min. Eff% Sco. Reb. Asst P.F. Stl. T.O. Blk. - total

      centers. 23 0.91 0.97 0.89 0.91 0.98 0.99 0.68 0.89 1.02 - 0.92
      forward. 41 0.91 1.00 0.94 0.97 1.03 0.95 0.83 0.88 0.95 - 0.97
      guards . 42 0.99 0.99 0.92 0.92 1.07 0.95 0.91 0.81 0.96 - 0.98

      Most players' productivity was diminished by association with
      Jordan. On the upside, most players got more assists, and fewer
      fouls and turnovers.

      Many of these players had unsalvageable careers. Quite a few were
      at the end.


      Of those whose careers were salvaged, or otherwise prospered under
      Jordan, most received increased minutes; so overall (net)
      productivity draws a different picture.

      Average gain/loss in production per player-season:

      position Pts Reb Ast PF St T.O Bk
      centers. -31 -10 +07 -3 -1 -03 +7
      forward. +13 +11 +21 -8 -3 -06 +3
      guards . +20 -01 +18 -5 -2 -12 +1

      This is production gain/loss in the minutes played, minus the
      production in equal minutes in previous/subsequent season.
    • Dean Oliver
      Mike -- Efficiency-wise, MJ made quite a few players better. BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc, etc. Sure, he took
      Message 2 of 2 , Feb 1, 2004
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        Mike --

        Efficiency-wise, MJ made quite a few players better. BJ Armstrong,
        Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc, etc. Sure, he
        took possessions from them -- you want him to -- but he took the
        defense away from those other guys, making it a lot easier for them to
        score.

        I looked at it in the book. In general, great players make _some_
        teammates better. They don't necessarily make all of them better, nor
        do they make them better all the time. The first MJ retirement was
        useful for Pippen but getting MJ back was good -- Pippen had declined
        in 1993, then needed that time to be The Man in 1994 before being an
        even better 2nd banana by 1996. That was roughly the media take back
        then and it does seem to be borne out fairly well by numbers.

        DeanO
        www.basketballonpaper.com


        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
        > Due to the flood of responses (not to mention the storm of
        > controversy) pouring in on this thread, I hardly know where to begin.
        >
        > So I'll delve even deeper into the question: Did Michael Jordan
        > make his teammates better?
        >
        > Perhaps he took from one position (his own?) and gave to others.
        >
        > Here are standardized production rate ratios, with/without Jordan in
        > succeeding years (SS is sample size):
        >
        > position SS Min. Eff% Sco. Reb. Asst P.F. Stl. T.O. Blk. - total
        >
        > centers. 23 0.91 0.97 0.89 0.91 0.98 0.99 0.68 0.89 1.02 - 0.92
        > forward. 41 0.91 1.00 0.94 0.97 1.03 0.95 0.83 0.88 0.95 - 0.97
        > guards . 42 0.99 0.99 0.92 0.92 1.07 0.95 0.91 0.81 0.96 - 0.98
        >
        > Most players' productivity was diminished by association with
        > Jordan. On the upside, most players got more assists, and fewer
        > fouls and turnovers.
        >
        > Many of these players had unsalvageable careers. Quite a few were
        > at the end.
        >
        >
        > Of those whose careers were salvaged, or otherwise prospered under
        > Jordan, most received increased minutes; so overall (net)
        > productivity draws a different picture.
        >
        > Average gain/loss in production per player-season:
        >
        > position Pts Reb Ast PF St T.O Bk
        > centers. -31 -10 +07 -3 -1 -03 +7
        > forward. +13 +11 +21 -8 -3 -06 +3
        > guards . +20 -01 +18 -5 -2 -12 +1
        >
        > This is production gain/loss in the minutes played, minus the
        > production in equal minutes in previous/subsequent season.
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