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Re: [APBR_analysis] Re: Kirilenko

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  • Gary Collard
    ... At the start of the Min-Sac game last night, the play by play guy (Breen?) said that the Kings lead the NBA in offensive efficiency. I m not sure if he
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 6, 2003
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      Dean Oliver wrote:
      >
      > One thing that has impressed me is the media's use of OPS in baseball.
      > Now there is a complicated concept for traditional media to use. It
      > even involves addition! Seriously, it really is more about acceptance
      > of a scale (OPS of over 1.0 is very good, for example) and acceptance
      > that a number is something real -- not an arbitrary mix of numbers.
      > Quarterback rating being a prominent exception. I do think the media
      > could end up using TENDEX or PER or Floor % or Offensive and Defensive
      > Ratings in a couple years.

      At the start of the Min-Sac game last night, the play by play guy (Breen?)
      said that the Kings lead the NBA in offensive efficiency. I'm not sure if
      he was talking about Offensive Rating, Eff FG%, or maybe just PPG or FG%.
      Whatever he meant, it was good to hear the phrase escape from the lips of
      an announcer. He does quite knowledgeable in his game call fwiw, so maybe
      there is a light on in there.

      --
      Gary Collard
      SABR-L Moderator
      gmcollard@...

      14 year old Freddy Adu signed a 6 year contract to play soccer for
      D.C. United, and ESPN's Tommy Smith predicted that "he can take the
      game in the [US] to the next level," I presume, pulling it even with
      professional bowling.
      -- T.J. Simers
    • Kevin Pelton
      ... I would maybe call them fun stats , because while they don t have much analytical value, they re fun/interesting to look at and add to our enjoyment of
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 6, 2003
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        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
        wrote:
        > General agreement with statements about usefulness (or lack
        > thereof) of pop stats like triple-double. I don't know if I'd
        > phrase it as harshly. Most people really don't care about being
        > precisely accurate, so if a triple double usually is a good
        > indicator of a good game, it's ok to use it that way.

        I would maybe call them "fun stats", because while they don't have
        much analytical value, they're fun/interesting to look at and add to
        our enjoyment of the game. If they don't actively detract from
        analysis -- and I don't think triple-doubles or 50-point games do,
        though "categories" like 20-10 players and guys averaging double-
        doubles can -- then I think they're a good thing.

        Plus junk stats are quite useful when I'm doing postgame notes. How
        many times do you think I've used DeanO's stuff for that?

        > One thing that has impressed me is the media's use of OPS in
        > baseball. Now there is a complicated concept for traditional media
        > to use. It even involves addition! Seriously, it really is more
        > about acceptance of a scale (OPS of over 1.0 is very good, for
        > example) and acceptance that a number is something real -- not an
        > arbitrary mix of numbers. Quarterback rating being a prominent
        > exception. I do think the media could end up using TENDEX or PER
        > or Floor % or Offensive and Defensive Ratings in a couple years.

        Does anyone know when stat types started using OPS? It predates my
        interest in baseball statistics, but it seems like it caught on
        fairly quickly.

        I think TENDEX -- or at least "NBA.com's exclusive efficiency
        rating" -- does have a pretty good chance of catching on. In its
        simple, non-pace form, it's extremely simple to understand, and the
        league itself tracking it has legitimized it for use by the general
        media. (Thus, when I want to get statistical in my work for the
        Sonics and Storm, I always turn to it.) I also tend to think that
        Lauren Jackson leading the league in efficiency per game and per-
        minute, as well as overall, had something to do with her winning
        WNBA MVP despite playing for a non-playoff team (and I made sure to
        emphasize these facts on the LJ for MVP site).
      • John Hollinger
        I heard Breem say that too and nearly fell out of my chair. Definitely a good sign. ... baseball. ... It ... acceptance ... acceptance ... numbers. ... media
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 6, 2003
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          I heard Breem say that too and nearly fell out of my chair.
          Definitely a good sign.



          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Gary Collard <gmcollard@e...>
          wrote:
          > Dean Oliver wrote:
          > >
          > > One thing that has impressed me is the media's use of OPS in
          baseball.
          > > Now there is a complicated concept for traditional media to use.
          It
          > > even involves addition! Seriously, it really is more about
          acceptance
          > > of a scale (OPS of over 1.0 is very good, for example) and
          acceptance
          > > that a number is something real -- not an arbitrary mix of
          numbers.
          > > Quarterback rating being a prominent exception. I do think the
          media
          > > could end up using TENDEX or PER or Floor % or Offensive and
          Defensive
          > > Ratings in a couple years.
          >
          > At the start of the Min-Sac game last night, the play by play guy
          (Breen?)
          > said that the Kings lead the NBA in offensive efficiency. I'm not
          sure if
          > he was talking about Offensive Rating, Eff FG%, or maybe just PPG
          or FG%.
          > Whatever he meant, it was good to hear the phrase escape from the
          lips of
          > an announcer. He does quite knowledgeable in his game call fwiw,
          so maybe
          > there is a light on in there.
          >
          > --
          > Gary Collard
          > SABR-L Moderator
          > gmcollard@y...
          >
          > 14 year old Freddy Adu signed a 6 year contract to play soccer for
          > D.C. United, and ESPN's Tommy Smith predicted that "he can take the
          > game in the [US] to the next level," I presume, pulling it even with
          > professional bowling.
          > -- T.J. Simers
        • Mike G
          ... Am I the only one who doesn t know what OPS is ?
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 8, 2003
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            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Pelton"
            <kpelton08@h...> wrote:
            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
            > wrote:
            > > (..OPS of over 1.0 is very good,..

            > Does anyone know when stat types started using OPS?

            Am I the only one who doesn't know what "OPS" is ?
          • Dean Oliver
            ... On base percentage plus slugging percentage. I think I only began seeing it in papers and on ESPN regularly this past season, so it s definitely excusable.
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 8, 2003
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              --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
              > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Pelton"
              > <kpelton08@h...> wrote:
              > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
              > > wrote:
              > > > (..OPS of over 1.0 is very good,..
              >
              > > Does anyone know when stat types started using OPS?
              >
              > Am I the only one who doesn't know what "OPS" is ?

              On base percentage plus slugging percentage.

              I think I only began seeing it in papers and on ESPN regularly this
              past season, so it's definitely excusable.
            • Mike G
              In this Age of Acronyms, we occasionally find these acronyms built from things other than single words: phrases, other acronyms. It s virtually impossible to
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 8, 2003
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                In this Age of Acronyms, we occasionally find these acronyms built
                from things other than single words: phrases, other acronyms.

                It's virtually impossible to guess what they stand for.


                --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
                wrote:
                > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
                > > Am I the only one who doesn't know what "OPS" is ?
                >
                > On base percentage plus slugging percentage.
                >

                If you added (R+RBI)/PA to this OPS, you'd have a useful number.
              • igor eduardo küpfer
                ... From: Mike G To: Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:30 AM Subject: [APBR_analysis] Re: Kirilenko ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 8, 2003
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Mike G" <msg_53@...>
                  To: <APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:30 AM
                  Subject: [APBR_analysis] Re: Kirilenko


                  > In this Age of Acronyms, we occasionally find these acronyms built
                  > from things other than single words: phrases, other acronyms.
                  >
                  > It's virtually impossible to guess what they stand for.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Oliver" <deano@r...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Mike G" <msg_53@h...> wrote:
                  > > > Am I the only one who doesn't know what "OPS" is ?
                  > >
                  > > On base percentage plus slugging percentage.
                  > >
                  >
                  > If you added (R+RBI)/PA to this OPS, you'd have a useful number.
                  >

                  OPS actually works incredibly well, given its simplicity. Runs and RBIs are
                  generally disregarded by sabremetricians because they are team, not player,
                  stats, and as such, too context dependent to be much use.

                  A full exploration of the philosophical implications of OPS is given in
                  "Moneyball," which I urge everyone on this list to read. It is balm for the
                  stathead soul.

                  ed
                • Charlie Board
                  ... Probably, but maybe not if the phrase offensive efficiency gets co-opted to some other measurement than the ones we use it for. Which I suspect is the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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                    --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
                    <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                    > I heard Breem say that too and nearly fell out of my chair.
                    > Definitely a good sign.

                    Probably, but maybe not if the phrase "offensive efficiency"
                    gets co-opted to some other measurement than the ones we
                    use it for. Which I suspect is the case here since Ed's page
                    shows Minnesota towards the middle-of-the-pack in offensive
                    efficiency
                    ( http://members.rogers.com/strudel/deleteable/NBA03-04.htm )

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Gary Collard <gmcollard@e...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > At the start of the Min-Sac game last night, the play by play guy
                    > (Breen?)
                    > > said that the Kings lead the NBA in offensive efficiency. I'm not
                    > sure if
                    > > he was talking about Offensive Rating, Eff FG%, or maybe just PPG
                    > or FG%.
                    > > Whatever he meant, it was good to hear the phrase escape from the
                    > lips of
                    > > an announcer. He does quite knowledgeable in his game call fwiw,
                    > so maybe
                    > > there is a light on in there.
                  • Charlie Board
                    ... Oops, he said the Kings. Nevermiinnnddd....
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 9, 2003
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                      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Board" <cboard@t...> wrote:
                      > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
                      > <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                      > > I heard Breem say that too and nearly fell out of my chair.
                      > > Definitely a good sign.
                      >
                      > Probably, but maybe not if the phrase "offensive efficiency"
                      > gets co-opted to some other measurement than the ones we
                      > use it for. Which I suspect is the case here since Ed's page
                      > shows Minnesota towards the middle-of-the-pack in offensive
                      > efficiency
                      > ( http://members.rogers.com/strudel/deleteable/NBA03-04.htm )
                      >

                      Oops, he said the Kings. Nevermiinnnddd....

                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Gary Collard <gmcollard@e...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > At the start of the Min-Sac game last night, the play by play guy
                      > > (Breen?)
                      > > > said that the Kings lead the NBA in offensive efficiency. I'm not
                      > > sure if
                      > > > he was talking about Offensive Rating, Eff FG%, or maybe just PPG
                      > > or FG%.
                      > > > Whatever he meant, it was good to hear the phrase escape from the
                      > > lips of
                      > > > an announcer. He does quite knowledgeable in his game call fwiw,
                      > > so maybe
                      > > > there is a light on in there.
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