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Re: Raptor Anomaly

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  • Mike G
    ... They ve had several 1- and 2-point wins, and more than a few 20-30 point losses. ... he ... Jalen might be one of those guys that needs to be traded
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
      --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...>
      wrote:
      > ... weird thing about toronto is that they are 8-8 but have been
      > outscored by 6 ppg.

      They've had several 1- and 2-point wins, and more than a few 20-30
      point losses.

      >
      > It's also an open question whether Jalen and his 38% shooting will
      > help them in the scoring department. I suspect it might because
      he
      > can at least create shots in bunches (something they lack).


      Jalen might be one of those guys that needs to be traded
      occasionally. Coming to the Pacers woke him up. Going to the Bulls
      did too, after he had gone dormant in Indy.

      He's been in a funk all year. I'm predicting he returns to form, at
      least for a while. Whether being 2nd-banana suits him in the long
      run, I rather doubt.

      Antonio was in at least as much of a funk; Jerome was looking like
      the Dog of old. And Donyell was looking over-the-hill.

      It's a mixed bag, and time will tell.
    • Stephen Greenwell
      Jalen might be one of those guys that needs to be traded occasionally. Coming to the Pacers woke him up. Going to the Bulls did too, after he had gone dormant
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
        Jalen might be one of those guys that needs to be traded
        occasionally.  Coming to the Pacers woke him up.  Going to the Bulls
        did too, after he had gone dormant in Indy.

        He's been in a funk all year.  I'm predicting he returns to form, at
        least for a while.  Whether being 2nd-banana suits him in the long
        run, I rather doubt.

        I've never been sold on Jalen Rose.  He's paid superstar money, but he's never made the all-star team, and I doubt he's going to anytime soon.  He's a poor man's Sprewell - a two point jump shooter, except that he doesn't D up nearly as well as Spree.  I really don't see how this trade helps the Raptors, since Vince Cater AND Morris Peterson are both arguably better then Rose.

        Steve Greenwell
      • Michael Tamada
        ... From: Mike G [mailto:msg_53@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 8:50 AM ... Sabrmetrics has shown, and I imagine that basketball statistics would
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Mike G [mailto:msg_53@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 8:50 AM

          --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...>
          wrote:
          >> ... weird thing about toronto is that they are 8-8 but have been
          >> outscored by 6 ppg.
          >
          >They've had several 1- and 2-point wins, and more than a few 20-30
          >point losses.

          Sabrmetrics has shown, and I imagine that basketball statistics would
          also show, that teams such as Toronto are prime candidates to finish
          below .500. As the season progresses, those 1- and 2-point games will
          even out to about .500 for Toronto... each new close game is an event
          with a fairly random outcome. Toronto will win some of them
          and lose some of them ... and thus win about .500 of them. Meanwhile
          those 20- and 30-point games might fluctuate into 15- or 35-point games
          -- meaning they will still be losses. Add them all together and it
          comes out to less than .500.

          Now if Toronto had some blowout wins under its belt, things would be
          looking brighter. But then if they had some blowout wins under their
          belt, they wouldn't have that -6 point differential.


          --MKT
        • John Hollinger
          I agree, Rose is grossly overrated and basically inferior to Peterson. The only guy in that trade who isn t grossly overpaid is Marshall. But I think one way
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
            I agree, Rose is grossly overrated and basically inferior to
            Peterson. The only guy in that trade who isn't grossly overpaid is
            Marshall.

            But I think one way Jalen could help is if the Raptors play him at
            point guard and bag the Williams/Palacio combo, at least until Alvin
            can play without a limp. One reason their offense has been so bad is
            that O'Neill has been sticking with Michael Curry and an injured
            Alvin Williams in the starting lineup, so a Rose-Carter-Marshall-Bosh-
            Moiso could potentially score quite a bit more.



            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Greenwell
            <sgre6768@p...> wrote:
            >
          • igor eduardo küpfer
            ... From: John Hollinger To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:45 PM Subject: [APBR_analysis] Re:
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John Hollinger" <alleyoop2@...>
              To: <APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:45 PM
              Subject: [APBR_analysis] Re: Raptor Anomaly


              > I agree, Rose is grossly overrated and basically inferior to
              > Peterson. The only guy in that trade who isn't grossly overpaid is
              > Marshall.
              >
              > But I think one way Jalen could help is if the Raptors play him at
              > point guard and bag the Williams/Palacio combo, at least until Alvin
              > can play without a limp. One reason their offense has been so bad is
              > that O'Neill has been sticking with Michael Curry and an injured
              > Alvin Williams in the starting lineup, so a Rose-Carter-Marshall-Bosh-
              > Moiso could potentially score quite a bit more.
              >

              Alvin looks healthy now. Rose's role is presumably to shoot the ball, and
              handle the ball a little. The Raps' entire offense consists of giving Vince
              Carter the ball and asking him to do something. Since about game 4 when
              opponents figured this out, teams have been double- and triple-teaming
              Vince, leaving one guy in the paint waiting for him, weakside players
              sagging off their guys in anticipation of helping on Vince. Since no other
              Raptor can shoot (except for Lamond Murray, who started the year poorly),
              this makes for a very bad offense. Rose and Marshall will be asked to shoot
              when Carter dumps off. They looked good in their first game, a win tonight
              against the Sixers.

              ed
            • Dean Oliver
              ... I don t know who overrates Rose anymore. He s taken his lumps. He was dramatically overrated. Now people see him a little better, I think. All in all,
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 3, 2003
                --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
                <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                > I agree, Rose is grossly overrated and basically inferior to
                > Peterson. The only guy in that trade who isn't grossly overpaid is
                > Marshall.
                >
                > But I think one way Jalen could help is if the Raptors play him at
                > point guard and bag the Williams/Palacio combo, at least until Alvin
                > can play without a limp. One reason their offense has been so bad is
                > that O'Neill has been sticking with Michael Curry and an injured
                > Alvin Williams in the starting lineup, so a Rose-Carter-Marshall-Bosh-
                > Moiso could potentially score quite a bit more.
                >

                I don't know who overrates Rose anymore. He's taken his lumps. He
                was dramatically overrated. Now people see him a little better, I think.

                All in all, though, Toronto got a good deal here. They were
                desperately lacking guys who could create outside of Carter. Rose can
                do that, albeit not very efficiently, but he still helps his teammates
                in this situation, whereas Chicago really couldn't use him. Also,
                Toronto's D behind Bosh is quite good, allowing Rose to fit better.
                So this is a case where the chemistry gets better in Toronto.

                Chicago is still unclear to me, as they were at the start of the
                season. They still have some signs of improvement and some signs of
                pure garbage. I've never liked Jamal Crawford like everyone else
                does, though he did have a great game the other night -- kinda like
                Rose, actually, in his ups and downs. Curry does look like he'll have
                a better year. Skiles is a good coach, so maybe he can blend these
                guys together.

                DeanO
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