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Raptor Anomaly

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  • harlanzo
    Did anyone catch the Raptor s team stats? It s pretty wacky: Toronto is last in the NBA in scoring. That s not surprising what is surprising is that they are
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
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      Did anyone catch the Raptor's team stats? It's pretty wacky:

      Toronto is last in the NBA in scoring. That's not surprising what
      is surprising is that they are in last by so much. The Raptors are
      29th in scoring at 78 ppg. The Heat at 28th at 85.5 ppg. I know
      the Raptors are slowing it down but that's really slow.

      Another weird thing about toronto is that they are 8-8 but have been
      outscored by 6 ppg. I know it's early and weird blips can happen
      but even for a 16-game span that's pretty weird.

      It's also an open question whether Jalen and his 38% shooting will
      help them in the scoring department. I suspect it might because he
      can at least create shots in bunches (something they lack).
    • Mike G
      ... They ve had several 1- and 2-point wins, and more than a few 20-30 point losses. ... he ... Jalen might be one of those guys that needs to be traded
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
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        --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...>
        wrote:
        > ... weird thing about toronto is that they are 8-8 but have been
        > outscored by 6 ppg.

        They've had several 1- and 2-point wins, and more than a few 20-30
        point losses.

        >
        > It's also an open question whether Jalen and his 38% shooting will
        > help them in the scoring department. I suspect it might because
        he
        > can at least create shots in bunches (something they lack).


        Jalen might be one of those guys that needs to be traded
        occasionally. Coming to the Pacers woke him up. Going to the Bulls
        did too, after he had gone dormant in Indy.

        He's been in a funk all year. I'm predicting he returns to form, at
        least for a while. Whether being 2nd-banana suits him in the long
        run, I rather doubt.

        Antonio was in at least as much of a funk; Jerome was looking like
        the Dog of old. And Donyell was looking over-the-hill.

        It's a mixed bag, and time will tell.
      • Stephen Greenwell
        Jalen might be one of those guys that needs to be traded occasionally. Coming to the Pacers woke him up. Going to the Bulls did too, after he had gone dormant
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
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          Jalen might be one of those guys that needs to be traded
          occasionally.  Coming to the Pacers woke him up.  Going to the Bulls
          did too, after he had gone dormant in Indy.

          He's been in a funk all year.  I'm predicting he returns to form, at
          least for a while.  Whether being 2nd-banana suits him in the long
          run, I rather doubt.

          I've never been sold on Jalen Rose.  He's paid superstar money, but he's never made the all-star team, and I doubt he's going to anytime soon.  He's a poor man's Sprewell - a two point jump shooter, except that he doesn't D up nearly as well as Spree.  I really don't see how this trade helps the Raptors, since Vince Cater AND Morris Peterson are both arguably better then Rose.

          Steve Greenwell
        • Michael Tamada
          ... From: Mike G [mailto:msg_53@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 8:50 AM ... Sabrmetrics has shown, and I imagine that basketball statistics would
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
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            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mike G [mailto:msg_53@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 8:50 AM

            --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "harlanzo" <harlanzo@y...>
            wrote:
            >> ... weird thing about toronto is that they are 8-8 but have been
            >> outscored by 6 ppg.
            >
            >They've had several 1- and 2-point wins, and more than a few 20-30
            >point losses.

            Sabrmetrics has shown, and I imagine that basketball statistics would
            also show, that teams such as Toronto are prime candidates to finish
            below .500. As the season progresses, those 1- and 2-point games will
            even out to about .500 for Toronto... each new close game is an event
            with a fairly random outcome. Toronto will win some of them
            and lose some of them ... and thus win about .500 of them. Meanwhile
            those 20- and 30-point games might fluctuate into 15- or 35-point games
            -- meaning they will still be losses. Add them all together and it
            comes out to less than .500.

            Now if Toronto had some blowout wins under its belt, things would be
            looking brighter. But then if they had some blowout wins under their
            belt, they wouldn't have that -6 point differential.


            --MKT
          • John Hollinger
            I agree, Rose is grossly overrated and basically inferior to Peterson. The only guy in that trade who isn t grossly overpaid is Marshall. But I think one way
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
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              I agree, Rose is grossly overrated and basically inferior to
              Peterson. The only guy in that trade who isn't grossly overpaid is
              Marshall.

              But I think one way Jalen could help is if the Raptors play him at
              point guard and bag the Williams/Palacio combo, at least until Alvin
              can play without a limp. One reason their offense has been so bad is
              that O'Neill has been sticking with Michael Curry and an injured
              Alvin Williams in the starting lineup, so a Rose-Carter-Marshall-Bosh-
              Moiso could potentially score quite a bit more.



              --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Greenwell
              <sgre6768@p...> wrote:
              >
            • igor eduardo küpfer
              ... From: John Hollinger To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:45 PM Subject: [APBR_analysis] Re:
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 2, 2003
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Hollinger" <alleyoop2@...>
                To: <APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 9:45 PM
                Subject: [APBR_analysis] Re: Raptor Anomaly


                > I agree, Rose is grossly overrated and basically inferior to
                > Peterson. The only guy in that trade who isn't grossly overpaid is
                > Marshall.
                >
                > But I think one way Jalen could help is if the Raptors play him at
                > point guard and bag the Williams/Palacio combo, at least until Alvin
                > can play without a limp. One reason their offense has been so bad is
                > that O'Neill has been sticking with Michael Curry and an injured
                > Alvin Williams in the starting lineup, so a Rose-Carter-Marshall-Bosh-
                > Moiso could potentially score quite a bit more.
                >

                Alvin looks healthy now. Rose's role is presumably to shoot the ball, and
                handle the ball a little. The Raps' entire offense consists of giving Vince
                Carter the ball and asking him to do something. Since about game 4 when
                opponents figured this out, teams have been double- and triple-teaming
                Vince, leaving one guy in the paint waiting for him, weakside players
                sagging off their guys in anticipation of helping on Vince. Since no other
                Raptor can shoot (except for Lamond Murray, who started the year poorly),
                this makes for a very bad offense. Rose and Marshall will be asked to shoot
                when Carter dumps off. They looked good in their first game, a win tonight
                against the Sixers.

                ed
              • Dean Oliver
                ... I don t know who overrates Rose anymore. He s taken his lumps. He was dramatically overrated. Now people see him a little better, I think. All in all,
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 3, 2003
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                  --- In APBR_analysis@yahoogroups.com, "John Hollinger"
                  <alleyoop2@y...> wrote:
                  > I agree, Rose is grossly overrated and basically inferior to
                  > Peterson. The only guy in that trade who isn't grossly overpaid is
                  > Marshall.
                  >
                  > But I think one way Jalen could help is if the Raptors play him at
                  > point guard and bag the Williams/Palacio combo, at least until Alvin
                  > can play without a limp. One reason their offense has been so bad is
                  > that O'Neill has been sticking with Michael Curry and an injured
                  > Alvin Williams in the starting lineup, so a Rose-Carter-Marshall-Bosh-
                  > Moiso could potentially score quite a bit more.
                  >

                  I don't know who overrates Rose anymore. He's taken his lumps. He
                  was dramatically overrated. Now people see him a little better, I think.

                  All in all, though, Toronto got a good deal here. They were
                  desperately lacking guys who could create outside of Carter. Rose can
                  do that, albeit not very efficiently, but he still helps his teammates
                  in this situation, whereas Chicago really couldn't use him. Also,
                  Toronto's D behind Bosh is quite good, allowing Rose to fit better.
                  So this is a case where the chemistry gets better in Toronto.

                  Chicago is still unclear to me, as they were at the start of the
                  season. They still have some signs of improvement and some signs of
                  pure garbage. I've never liked Jamal Crawford like everyone else
                  does, though he did have a great game the other night -- kinda like
                  Rose, actually, in his ups and downs. Curry does look like he'll have
                  a better year. Skiles is a good coach, so maybe he can blend these
                  guys together.

                  DeanO
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